Wow....This is insane (Red Digital Cinema)

[silverback66]

Check out the specs on this camera:

http://www.red.com/redcamera.html

Apparently it's legit. I was over on the dvxuser.com forums and it even has it's own section to discuss it.

 

[Lacero]

Website is a bit skimpy on the details. Pretty impressive specs. I won't calculate the bandwidth this puppy will need, but it'll be mind-boggling for sure!

I'll take a pink.

Here's to the Crazy Ones ​

 

[superbovine]

I think it a scam, but I could eat my words later. I did a trademark search for Mysterium the search came up dry. The website does however say it is trademarked.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=22nv8o.2.2

EDIT: I just re-read it and Mysterium is copyrighted not trademarked. Anyway, I did a copyright search as well. I couldn't find anything either, but my knowledge of copyright compared with patients and trademarks is limited.

http://www.copyright.gov/

whois info
Calling the number listed below send you to voice mail in Orange county, CA that talks about question about the domain name. My guess is the number is rackspace.com number. redcode.com whois info is exactly the same as red.com.

However, there was an interview on a blog with the red.com people so who knows. I am not holding my breathe. The trademark is what gets me.

Registrant:
Redcode, Inc. -- Admin
PO Box 1389
Eastsound, WA 98253
US
949-672-6973


Domain Name: RED.COM

Administrative Contact:
Domain, Administrator admin@redcode.com
PO Box 1389
Eastsound, WA 98253
US
949-672-6973


Technical Contact:
Domain, Administrator admin@redcode.com
PO Box 1389
Eastsound, WA 98253
US
949-672-6973


Record last updated 08-30-2005 06:00:55 PM
Record expires on 10-26-2011
Record created on 10-27-1992

Domain servers in listed order:
NS.RACKSPACE.COM 69.20.95.4
NS2.RACKSPACE.COM 65.61.188.4

http://www.redcode.com/

 

[illegalprelude]

yea....seems like a shady operation to me...

 

[Mr. Anderson]

but what's more insane - the specs on the thing or the price

No doubt some day we'll see something like that - whether that time is now remains to be seen.

D

 

[FocusAndEarnIt]

I don't think it's going to happen - the specs are to good. And something is just telling me it's a scam . . .

 

[Glenn Wolsey]

Just wait until iGary see's this

 

[LethalWolfe]

I don't think it's a scam. Possibly an attempt to disrupt the status quo that will result in failure, but not a scam. I don't remember his name, but the guy who founded Oakley (the sunglasses) is the one behind the camera (so to speak). They are supposed to have a booth at NAB so I'm sure more info will come out then. Right now they are just in hype/tease mode.


Lethal

 

[LethalWolfe]

I just read that Graeme Nattress is now involved in the Red camera project so my faith in it just went up a whole bunch. For those that don't know of Graeme he is a bit of a digital video guru that has written a great set of plugins for FCP, technical articles about FCP and digital video in general, as well as chiming in on typically technical threads relating to digital media on a number of internet forums.


Lethal

 

[superbovine]

I don't think it's a scam. Possibly an attempt to disrupt the status quo that will result in failure, but not a scam. I don't remember his name, but the guy who founded Oakley (the sunglasses) is the one behind the camera (so to speak). They are supposed to have a booth at NAB so I'm sure more info will come out then. Right now they are just in hype/tease mode.


Lethal

ironically, i found that 0akley.com, oakley.com and red.com all live in the same rackspace.com network and all the same contact number. I found this out when I was digging for info on red.com. make sense now.

 

[pdpfilms]

No. Way.

There is no way this camera is coming this year, or even next. The Panasonic HVX-200 shoots 1080 60i which weighs in at 100mb/s. The bandwidth of 2540 60p would be, to quote Michael Scott of Dunder Mifflin, 'incalculacble'.
To shoot 1080i footage on the panasonic, one must use P2 memory. For 8 minutes of footage, one must pay $2199.95 (from bhphoto.com) for an 8gb P2 card. Imagine the price to record a single minute from this "Red" camera... let alone the fact that there is no possible portable medium to record on.

Though, this may be a project like Gigapixel (http://www.gigapxl.org/). No hope of even possibility of commercial production or use... just show.

EDIT: Found this on dvxuser.com. Supposedly a letter from the head hauncho.

Thanks Jarred for helping to legitimize our effort by giving us a space on your board. We really appreciate it.

We are giving our best effort to deliver the RED camera as shown on the http://www.red.com website sometime late in 2006. BTW, we also recognize that the site is in a remedial stage and will up the quality of the site as our project progresses.

There are several reasons we want to do this project. There is a group of us that feels the camera we really want just isn't available commercially and we don't see it on the horizon. We are shooters, collectors and camera fanatics. We own and use Arri 35mm, S16mm, Aaton S16mm film gear as well as a Sony HDCAM and Panasonic Varicam. Additionally, we have a Sony FX-1, Z-1, Panasonic DVX100a, and several DV camcorders. We have several FCP stations and a Smoke HD system. So we feel some familiarity/expertise with the space.

We long for 35mm DOF in the digital world. We want flexibility and versatility. We want a small package that can act big. We want the ability to record UHD for the future and 1080P 60 fps for use right now. We want to know that we can record to just about any media. And use the lenses we have. Plus design some new ones we wish were being built but aren't. This is a tall order, but we are up for the opportunity to make a difference in this market.

We have the financial resources and project resources for this project that include a great design department, 3D modeling capability (for 15 years), liquid laser prototyping equipment, a full testing lab, optical and electronic engineers, 5 axis mills, molding machines, a titanium casting plant (where Romeos, Juliets, Pennys are made), electron beam gun vapor deposition equipment (same as Canon, Nikon, etc.) and a strong will.

We have a lot of ideas we believe would take the RED camera to new levels. Several industry consultants have come onboard to help with the program and we have been watching these boards and listening for some time to what shooters really want. I am convinced we are not alone in our desire for a new "dream camera".

Our only agenda is to build a great camera at a price that will bring a smile to all who shoot high end video and film. We are making this camera "future capable" as well as usable in the present.

Expect us to present a machined or liquid laser NON- working prototype at NAB 2006, assuming we can find some space. But we'll be standing in the parking lot if we have to.

I'll try to address concerns from the group as time goes on, but two things that won't be discussed in detail are the sensor (for competitive reasons) and pricing. We haven't locked down a price... it is way too early. We do have agressive goals to make customers happy. Our intentions are good.

I promise to keep my eye on this board and contribute when I can. I don't mind taking a poke from the skeptics as long as I get to poke back. All in good fun.

Thanks again for the forum.

Jim Jannard
http://www.red.com
4k@red.com

 

[LethalWolfe]

No. Way.

Where would the world be w/o forward thinkers, risk takers, and visionaries such as yourself?

There is no way this camera is coming this year, or even next.

Did anybody say it was?

The Panasonic HVX-200 shoots 1080 60i which weighs in at 100mb/s.

And in terms of data rate the HVX200 is a lightweight. HDCAM is 144, and HDCAM-SR can get up to 880.

The bandwidth of 2540 60p would be, to quote Michael Scott of Dunder Mifflin, 'incalculacble'.

Really, incalculable? Pi and the bandwidth required to operate the the Red camera at max res. Two mysteries for the ages I guess...

To shoot 1080i footage on the panasonic, one must use P2 memory. For 8 minutes of footage, one must pay $2199.95 (from bhphoto.com) for an 8gb P2 card. Imagine the price to record a single minute from this "Red" camera... let alone the fact that there is no possible portable medium to record on.

For the high end of the low end of pro cameras yes the HVX+P2 cards is pushing the budget of many in it's micro-budget demographic, but in the big picture of video/film production it's still dirt cheap. An HDCAM-SR camera package like what Lucas used to shoot Episode III probably had a purchase price of over $350k (which is why people rent, not buy). The Venom FlashPak (a solid state recorder for the Thomson Viper FilmStream camera) costs $59k. Heck, the company I currently work for probably spends $3k-$4k a week in blank tape stock alone.

Even if there isn't a portable storage solution for the Red running in top gear then people will have it tethered to a deck or HDD RAID setup like the do now on many big budget movies shot digitally.

From some of the speculation I've heard (which pretty much all there's gonna be until NAB) the Red camera will be able to shoot at various resolutions. So if you are a big boy that can afford big toys you can rent all the highest of the high end gear and shoot the Red at full bore. But if you are a low budget type dude you can dial the Red back and use something like the Firestore HDD recorder. Kinda like digital still cameras where you can adjust the quality from some tiny 640*480 JPEG up to some big ol' RAW image.

Though, this may be a project like Gigapixel (http://www.gigapxl.org/). No hope of even possibility of commercial production or use... just show.

Lethal

 

[pdpfilms]

Where would the world be w/o forward thinkers, risk takers, and visionaries such as yourself?


Did anybody say it was?


And in terms of data rate the HVX200 is a lightweight. HDCAM is 144, and HDCAM-SR can get up to 880.


Really, incalculable? Pi and the bandwidth required to operate the the Red camera at max res. Two mysteries for the ages I guess...


For the high end of the low end of pro cameras yes the HVX+P2 cards is pushing the budget of many in it's micro-budget demographic, but in the big picture of video/film production it's still dirt cheap. An HDCAM-SR camera package like what Lucas used to shoot Episode III probably had a purchase price of over $350k (which is why people rent, not buy). The Venom FlashPak (a solid state recorder for the Thomson Viper FilmStream camera) costs $59k. Heck, the company I currently work for probably spends $3k-$4k a week in blank tape stock alone.

Even if there isn't a portable storage solution for the Red running in top gear then people will have it tethered to a deck or HDD RAID setup like the do now on many big budget movies shot digitally.

From some of the speculation I've heard (which pretty much all there's gonna be until NAB) the Red camera will be able to shoot at various resolutions. So if you are a big boy that can afford big toys you can rent all the highest of the high end gear and shoot the Red at full bore. But if you are a low budget type dude you can dial the Red back and use something like the Firestore HDD recorder. Kinda like digital still cameras where you can adjust the quality from some tiny 640*480 JPEG up to some big ol' RAW image.





Lethal

I'm just trying to point out reasons why this may be a no more than a myth. I mean, if this baby really isn't being produced by the end of 2007, then is it really going to be skipping any generations? Sounds like they're just releasing "specs" early to get people's attention.

Jim Jannard, the supposed brain behind the project is saying himself that the specs they've released thus far no more than dreams. As far as project progres goes, they'll be at NAB 2006 with a "non-working prototype". So... they're going to make a camera out of clay and call it their baby?

All I'm saying is that these guys really don't seem to be doing much. They're proposing specs that will likely be achievable in late 2007, and will thus be skipping no generations. The only thing they're doing is overhyping by releasing such unsupported specs and descriptions way too early.

And by the way, I'm going to be designing a Powermac that has 4TB of drive space, quad 6Ghz processors, and the ability to drive the new Apple 50" Cinema Display. I'm skipping generations here.

.......Note: Released specs are purely speculative. Actual Powermac will not be ready for production until Q4 2007.

 

[LethalWolfe]

I'm just trying to point out reasons why this may be a no more than a myth.

If you have doubts just say you have doubts (heck, I said I have doubts). Don't try and justify your doubts by bringing up completely irrelevant facts.

I mean, if this baby really isn't being produced by the end of 2007, then is it really going to be skipping any generations? Sounds like they're just releasing "specs" early to get people's attention.

Jim Jannard, the supposed brain behind the project is saying himself that the specs they've released thus far no more than dreams. As far as project progres goes, they'll be at NAB 2006 with a "non-working prototype". So... they're going to make a camera out of clay and call it their baby?

Did you see the '08/'09 Camero concept car (there is a thread over in Current Events)? Or how about the non-working mock-up of the HVX200 Panasonic had at the '05 NAB? Or how about non-playable demos of future games at events such as E3?

All I'm saying is that these guys really don't seem to be doing much. They're proposing specs that will likely be achievable in late 2007, and will thus be skipping no generations. The only thing they're doing is overhyping by releasing such unsupported specs and descriptions way too early.

So you've been around the Red design team enough the past couple of years while they've been doing R&D to say w/authority that they are completely full of sh*t?

And by the way, I'm going to be designing a Powermac that has 4TB of drive space, quad 6Ghz processors, and the ability to drive the new Apple 50" Cinema Display. I'm skipping generations here.

.......Note: Released specs are purely speculative. Actual Powermac will not be ready for production until Q4 2007.

I'm sure people mocked Jobs too when they found out he wanted Apple to make a highly competitive NLE. FCP may not be the best out there, but years ago the mere threat of what FCP was becoming changed the post production landscape forever.

The revolutionary idea of the Red camera is to cameras what FCP is to NLEs. A single product that is so flexible, powerful, and affordable that it can be by micro-budget kids in Nebraska or major Hollywood players in LA. The core of the camera (the sensor, body, etc.,) will remain the same but your budget and needs dictate the rest. For example (and this is all complete speculation) low budget peeps can shoot 720p24 @ 60Mb/s w/the stock lens onto a regular HDD. Higher budget guys can shoot 1080p24 and record onto a deck. And even higher budget guys can shoot at 2540p60 tethered to a huge freakin' HDD RAID w/terabytes of storage.

The technology, the pieces of the camera, is pretty much available today. What's missing is a company that has the resources and desire to put the pieces together. It's not going to be Sony or Panasonic or Arri because they all have product lines to protect. Just like Avid has product lines to protect. But Jim Jannard, just like Apple, has no product lines to protect and has other revenue streams to draw from.


Lethal

 

[virus1]

I don't think it's a scam. Possibly an attempt to disrupt the status quo that will result in failure, but not a scam. I don't remember his name, but the guy who founded Oakley (the sunglasses) is the one behind the camera (so to speak). They are supposed to have a booth at NAB so I'm sure more info will come out then. Right now they are just in hype/tease mode.


Lethal

sorry lethal

 

[LethalWolfe]

sorry lethal

?

I don't get it.

You linked to Red's contact page that says, basically, "We aren't taking e-mails at this time, but we should be at NAB 2006. Check back for updates."


Lethal

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Just wait until iGary see's this

I was thinking the same thing!

 

[LethalWolfe]

Just saw the other day that Red has confirmed booth space at NAB.


Lethal

 

[MadJack]

Red at NAB

I just got back from NAB. I saw the Red Camera pitch. Here's what they have right now: A very slick brochure. A specification sheet that is very ambitious, to say they least. Several hollow plastic prototype mockups of the camera. Several glib pitchmen and women. They were showing beautiful images that they did admit, only after being asked, were shot in Super 16mm film, as they say to "represent what we expect images from the camera to look like". They promise to deliver working prototypes by the end of this year, and what they also have is somewhere around 200+ $1,000 deposits to "hold a serial number for you."

You be the judge. Other "legitimate," experienced and long established camera companies have been developing cameras, now working, for over 7 years that do not come up to the Red camera specifications, something Red claims they will do in 18 months. Panavision "Genesis", Arriflex "D-20", Dalsa "Origin", to name a few. It takes more than a ton of money and an ambitious spec sheet to make a successful working camera.

We are in the midst of a digital "gold rush" where as in the first gold rush; the only people to really make money were they guys that sold the tools. So, pony up your $1k and get in line.

 

[whoooaaahhhh]

Crazy? Umm noo...

As someone who totally just finished writing a white paper on cameras of this very nature, I can safely say that not only is this not crazy, but it's going to happen...quickly. The advent of the HDCAM-SR recording system by Sony was the first step and easily recordable full res HD, the Sony/Panavision Genesis was the first to combine the style of a film camera with a 35mm Digital Sensor. As pointed out, the Dalsa Origin is already out, it has a 4K sensor, sure it's expensive as heck, that's why they don't sell 'em.

High-end cameras are not purchased most of the time, they're rented, so these prices are negligable anyway.

Btw, P2 memory is about the worst idea ever created and it's expensive because it's unrealistic. The memory is way to expensive for the market that they're trying to reach. Higher-end professionals aren't going to use that they're going to use DVCPRO HD and D5 to master it,

Also,
Sony HDCAM-SR tapes are about 140 bucks for an hour of Full res-variable frame rate HD. Make a good case for solid-state memory and I'll concede, but until then the only thing that comes even close to SR is Blu-Ray XDCAM-HD.

Sorry for the long post!

 

[Kingsly]

My boss saw it at NAB... so yeah... if its fake their doing a really good job of keeping us misinformed.

 

[bigbossbmb]

This is the camera hinted at in this marcrumors thread from back in January...

https://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/01/20060104145624.shtml

 

[LethalWolfe]

You be the judge. Other "legitimate," experienced and long established camera companies have been developing cameras, now working, for over 7 years that do not come up to the Red camera specifications, something Red claims they will do in 18 months. Panavision "Genesis", Arriflex "D-20", Dalsa "Origin", to name a few. It takes more than a ton of money and an ambitious spec sheet to make a successful working camera.

Keep in mind is that all of those companies have product lines to protect. It's not in their best interest to release something like Red because their business model don't support it. A parallel could be the NLE market. Apple came in w/FCP and nothing to lose and has shaken up the entire industry. Pretty much across the board pro NLE software is more powerful and less expensive because of what Apple has done w/FCP. IIRC before FCP really took stride you couldn't get an Avid for less than around $60k. Now you can get XpressDV for like $500, XpressPro for $1200, and Media Composer Adrenaline for $5k (pre NAB MCA was part of a $25k hardware/software bundle).

Even if RED doesn't live up to all it's hype (which I don't it can), I hope it's at least a solid enough camera that it will shake up the camera side of things the same way FCP has shaken up the post side of things. Better, faster, and cheaper is always a good thing for the end user.

Granted the proof is in the pudding, but there are a number of well known, trusted names in the digital video/film community that are involved w/the camera's development so it's not a scam.

This is the camera hinted at in this marcrumors thread from back in January...

https://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/01/20060104145624.shtml

Only vaguely hinted at... and still pretty much wrong.


Lethal

 

[ColdFlame87]

Has anyone else noticed that hen you click on it it says the site is "not found" seems a little shady to me now

 

[LethalWolfe]

Has anyone else noticed that hen you click on it it says the site is "not found" seems a little shady to me now

The link in the first thread is out of date. red.com got all new and improved for NAB.


Lethal