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2002cbr600f4i
Jul 31, 2011, 09:04 AM
So I was trying to do some stuff in Automator yesterday and realized that I wanted to change from saving the current workflow from a workflow to an application... In snow leopard and before, I'd just do a Save As and save the file as the different type...

Nope! In lion there is no Save As option!!!! Once you save the file the first time, the only option you have is Save as version, which doesn't let you change the type or location or anything!!!

Frickin brilliant!!! Argh!!! I had to remake my Automator workflows like 5 times to get things the way I wanted them...

Give us back SaveAs!!!!!!



borisiii
Jul 31, 2011, 09:06 AM
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Calm down. The duplicate function in Lion is essentially the same as save as in Snow Leopard.

Jagardn
Jul 31, 2011, 09:17 AM
I love how people whine, cry and bash before asking questions. It could have easily been stated. "Hey I'm trying to Save As in Automator under Lion and it's not there. Did they change the way it works?' It's shorter and sounds a lot less childish.

Internaut
Jul 31, 2011, 09:22 AM
Yes, the new standard way of doing things is to use save as your first opportunity to save a document and duplicate for subsequent "save as" operations. I've been playing with revert in Text Edit this afternoon....... Have Apple starting using their journaled file system in a vaguely journaled manner? Lots to get used to in Lion IMHO.

2002cbr600f4i
Jul 31, 2011, 12:01 PM
Ok, cool...

BUT, SERIOUSLY??? They have to change the name of a STANDARD use paradigm that has been in play for, what, 30 years now??? REALLY???

It's exactly for crazy changes like this that I gave up on Windows and went to Mac because of it's consistency, and here we go, changing stuff that's been the norm and expected for years...

afurry13
Jul 31, 2011, 12:34 PM
And those darn kids and their loud music too, huh? And what is this Facebook? And these ridiculous things called... airplanes??

If you don't want to change then stick with snow leopard. Otherwise, shut up and adapt like you have your entire life.

Branskins
Jul 31, 2011, 12:36 PM
Ok, cool...

BUT, SERIOUSLY??? They have to change the name of a STANDARD use paradigm that has been in play for, what, 30 years now??? REALLY???

It's exactly for crazy changes like this that I gave up on Windows and went to Mac because of it's consistency, and here we go, changing stuff that's been the norm and expected for years...

If we didn't have massive shifts in computers we would still be using DOS and other archaic operating systems.

You may be uncomfortable now, but you will get use to it and see that it makes more sense down the road :D

paulsalter
Jul 31, 2011, 12:44 PM
Sadly this is one of those features Apple has decided to do away with

Why have the easy ability to save as on a file when you can click twice as many options to duplicate it

at least some apps still work the sensible way

MacUser2525
Jul 31, 2011, 12:52 PM
I love how people whine, cry and bash before asking questions. It could have easily been stated. "Hey I'm trying to Save As in Automator under Lion and it's not there. Did they change the way it works?' It's shorter and sounds a lot less childish.

And I love how people like you no matter how valid the criticism of the new "feature" will always put your two cents in telling the OP to suck it up and bend over and smile when Apple fsck's them..

glen e
Jul 31, 2011, 01:43 PM
It does seem stupid to change a function just for change sakes...or is duplicate better than save as?

handel30
Sep 3, 2011, 06:16 PM
I love how people whine, cry and bash before asking questions. It could have easily been stated. "Hey I'm trying to Save As in Automator under Lion and it's not there. Did they change the way it works?' It's shorter and sounds a lot less childish.

Yes, but you have to allow that people get frustrated when something interrupts workflow, kind of like what Heidegger describes in Being and Time when things break down.

Riemann Zeta
Sep 3, 2011, 09:32 PM
If Apple had just simply renamed the feature that was "Save As..." to "Duplicate" then I doubt this conversation would be taking place. The problem (a very disturbing problem...but I do like some of the other things about Lion, so I'm stuck with it nevertheless) is that Lion automatically saves any and every operation made to a file, without your knowledge or consent. For an application like Preview and lossy-compressed files like JPGs--browsing through photos and rotating a few while looking at them will automatically save the changes (lowering the quality by recompressing them); if you want the original file back, you are forced to fishing for it through the little 3D time machine UI. So instead of you, the user, actively triggering a save on the computer, you the user must spend time trying to prevent the computer from automatically saving.

If it isn't broken, then why fix it--and why replace it with a more complex method that feels backasswards?

proxtoyz
Sep 4, 2011, 12:32 PM
yeah its pretty ridiculous how apple just changed this standard at a whim, makes me appreciate windows all the more

ceej
Sep 4, 2011, 12:45 PM
Or get Word for Mac :)

paulsalter
Sep 4, 2011, 12:51 PM
Or get Word for Mac :)

I am holding out on this one for now, but might switch

From what I have read, using the new features can be made optional in apps, there is already a graphic converter app that allows you to chose the new or old method for saving

If word has it as an option (when MS get around to adding the feature), I will switch to Office, if office only allows the new features I will stick with iWork

ceej
Sep 4, 2011, 10:19 PM
I am holding out on this one for now, but might switch

From what I have read, using the new features can be made optional in apps, there is already a graphic converter app that allows you to chose the new or old method for saving

If word has it as an option (when MS get around to adding the feature), I will switch to Office, if office only allows the new features I will stick with iWork

Everything works the way regular Word works.

maflynn
Sep 5, 2011, 05:49 AM
That's one of the features that really staggers the imagination. Why did apple even think that it was a good idea to remove "Save As"

Sure there's work arounds, but they're more cumbersome. OSX has been an OS that allowed me to work the way I wanted to work, and doing it efficient. With the loss of "Save As" it creates a more of a headache then anything

baryon
Sep 5, 2011, 08:24 AM
Yes, now, instead of knowing that all applications have "Save As", you now have to be aware that some have "Save As", some have "Duplicate" and others have "Save Version". They all do the same things but are called differently, have different shortcuts and even behave slightly differently. It's a cool new trendy and user-friendly way to make your life just a little bit worse.

And 10.8 introduces the new "Super Monkey Spider" function. It replaces the "File" menu and it's basically the same thing, but called differently. Oh, we forgot to say, it will only change in a few applications, others will still use "File", and others will adopt "Spider Duck Monkey". The difference between them is that they're all the same, especially the third one.

KnightWRX
Sep 5, 2011, 09:56 AM
That's one of the features that really staggers the imagination. Why did apple even think that it was a good idea to remove "Save As"

Sure there's work arounds, but they're more cumbersome. OSX has been an OS that allowed me to work the way I wanted to work, and doing it efficient. With the loss of "Save As" it creates a more of a headache then anything

Is there really a need for Save As with Duplicate and Versions though ? I don't get why the OP couldn't make do with those and actually restarted his whole work 5 times... why not just jump to a previous version...

maflynn
Sep 5, 2011, 10:02 AM
Is there really a need for Save As with Duplicate and Versions though ? I don't get why the OP couldn't make do with those and actually restarted his whole work 5 times... why not just jump to a previous version...

Yes, there is a need. Duplicate and versions do not work as easily as "Save As"

If there was just an easier way, we wouldn't be seeing these types of threads regarding save as.

KnightWRX
Sep 5, 2011, 10:12 AM
Yes, there is a need. Duplicate and versions do not work as easily as "Save As"

If there was just an easier way, we wouldn't be seeing these types of threads regarding save as.

Save As litters the file system with different versions of the same document. Versions stores it in a "meta database" (I'm betting some NetApp technology is at use here, allocating new blocks instead of overwriting existing blocks) and Duplicate lets you litter your filesystem too if that is what you liked doing...

I played around with Textedit after reading this thread and posting, seems to work pretty good actually. Duplicate lets you have more than 1 version tree for a same document and versions lets you go back in time to a "snapshot", same as one created with Save As.

New features require adaptation. Same with Mission Control. As a big spaces user, I find it has improved my workflow a lot. I never liked the old Expose at all, a big jumble of windows and I would always organize my workflow around spaces (1 space, 1 application) and find Mission Control and Application Expose are quite a good way to work with it.

Really liking Lion, and the gestures to control it all will make me buy a magic trackpad to replace my Razer mouse.

maflynn
Sep 5, 2011, 10:48 AM
Save As litters the file system with different versions of the same document.
What you consider litter, I consider valued documents that I use. Clearly Save As has a use for many of us.

baryon
Sep 5, 2011, 10:53 AM
Save As litters the file system with different versions of the same document.

No it doesn't. First of all, it's just text. Second, I have to change my CV for each new job I apply for. I have 10 kinds of CVs, but one is not better than the other. There is no "current version" and they're all important, since I cannot know what my next job will be like, and which CV I will need to send them out of the 10 versions. I don't want to have to go back into the Versions Time Machine thing, to try to figure out which version was the one that I'm looking for. I want the 10 CVs to be in one folder, separate, and separately editable. Making a single CV and turning it into 10 slightly different versions has become very annoying and difficult with Lion.

Not to mention the number of times I open a document, remove something from it so that it fits on a single page, print it, and then I want to QUIT WITHOUT saving since I need that line in the future. I DON'T want to save a version where I removed that line, I just wanted to quickly print it and then forget about it. But no, Versions remembers it, and better still, it thinks it's the "current version". If, say, 3 weeks later you open the file, having completely forgotten that last time you removed a line that you actually need, you'll be working with a document that's missing that line. Sure, you can go back in time and get it back, but what if you don't even remember that you removed that line, thus you don't go looking for it in the first place?

I hate it when computers think for me and try to figure out what I want without asking me. I want to be able to quit and press either "Save" or "Don't Save" each time I work on something. What if I type some stuff that I end up not liking? I need to go through this stupid procedure of getting back the version before. Before I could just quit and "Don't Save".

talmy
Sep 5, 2011, 12:49 PM
The change from SaveAs to Duplicate is basically a change in paradigm from application-centric to document-centric. Autosave and resume are also part of the document-centric thinking. Instead of a single document that gets modified and "saved as" different documents, you now make as many duplicates of the document as you need and then edit each of them. When you close or first save one of the duplicates it will ask for the document name. The original is basically a template and is not changed (in fact Lion will protect older documents against changing). If you do go ahead and change it and want to go back, you can revert to last opened or bring up the full Versions interface.

This is not a new way of doing things. Aperture and iPhoto have done this as long as I can remember, as does iMovie. I've used programs with autosave since the 1980s. It tends to be more resource intensive, but modern computers have lots of CPU power, RAM, and disk capacity, so we might as well be using it to our advantage.

If Apple can move everything to document-centric then the consistency across applications will be a great boon to ease of use.

WSR
Sep 5, 2011, 01:33 PM
I hate it when computers think for me and try to figure out what I want without asking me. I want to be able to quit and press either "Save" or "Don't Save" each time I work on something. What if I type some stuff that I end up not liking? I need to go through this stupid procedure of getting back the version before. Before I could just quit and "Don't Save".

I agree.
In trying to make things easier for those that have problems managing files, they've made it harder on the rest.

"Save As..." and "Do You Want to Save?" NEEDS to return!

hayesk
Sep 5, 2011, 02:14 PM
Yes, now, instead of knowing that all applications have "Save As", you now have to be aware that some have "Save As",

Except some apps combine Export with Save As, and some don't. Now it's obvious which is for making a duplicate and which is for saving to a different format. Better, IMO.

KnightWRX
Sep 5, 2011, 02:21 PM
No it doesn't. First of all, it's just text. Second, I have to change my CV for each new job I apply for. I have 10 kinds of CVs, but one is not better than the other. There is no "current version" and they're all important, since I cannot know what my next job will be like, and which CV I will need to send them out of the 10 versions.

What's wrong with "Duplicate" then ? Duplicate, modify, save and have all the clutter you want on your filesystem. Seems to me this is different, not gone.

I still don't get why the OP had to do everything all over again in automator 5 times... just go back to an earlier version, duplicate and start from there. No need to start from scratch.

What you consider litter, I consider valued documents that I use. Clearly Save As has a use for many of us.

But it's still there... :confused:

It's just named differently. And "Save" now doesn't just smash whatever is on your drive. IE : They added functionality, renamed some, and everything is still there. That's why I don't get the gripe.

roadbloc
Sep 5, 2011, 02:41 PM
Save As litters the file system with different versions of the same document.

I'ma let you finish but some of us want that. As an author, I want many versions of the same thing 'littering up my filesystem'.

KnightWRX
Sep 5, 2011, 02:44 PM
I'ma let you finish but some of us want that. As an author, I want many versions of the same thing 'littering up my filesystem'.

You can still have it... that's what I don't get. What's the beef ? It's just different now.

scottsjack
Sep 5, 2011, 02:58 PM
Two things are for sure; Apple is transitioning to a system where apps hold their own data in specific containers like iPhoto, Aperture and iTunes. For really simple computing where each file only works with one app that's fine. For more powerful computing the file system works best and the flexibility of Save As is an integral part of it.

The second thing for sure is that KnightWRX will think that Save As and Duplicate are the same set of operations till the end of time.

QuarterSwede
Sep 5, 2011, 03:03 PM
They added functionality, renamed some, and everything is still there. That's why I don't get the gripe.
Gotta agree. He's dead right.


Two things are for sure; Apple is transitioning to a system where apps hold their own data in specific containers like iPhoto, Aperture and iTunes. For really simple computing where each file only works with one app that's fine. For more powerful computing the file system works best and the flexibility of Save As is an integral part of it.
This is true but you also have to realize that that system is a lot more secure. Apps will still be able to see other sandboxed apps files it just needs permission from the system to do so (this is a very basic explanation). It's actually really smart what they're doing. There will be no lost functionality.

sidewinder
Sep 5, 2011, 03:14 PM
What you consider litter, I consider valued documents that I use. Clearly Save As has a use for many of us.

Exactly how do you use "Save As..." in a way that "Duplicate" will not work for you?

S-

KnightWRX
Sep 5, 2011, 03:22 PM
The second thing for sure is that KnightWRX will think that Save As and Duplicate are the same set of operations till the end of time.

How do they differ really ? Duplicate lets you have 2 sets of the same document that evolve differently. Basically "Save As" with Versions integrated.

What is it that I'm supposed to think ? Maybe someone could explain instead of just saying "it sucks, Apple is dumbing it down".

Having worked with block based snapshots under Netapp and Volume Shadow Copy, I think the versions thing is a good feature.

I'm the first to have turned off/on many things in Lion to make it more Snow Leopard like (scroll bars turned on, little lights on the dock, reverted the scrolling to the usual behavior instead of this "natural" crap that works on touch screen, disabled Resume), I don't use Launchpad at all and never will, despise the Mac App Store's philosophy, but seriously, I don't understand the flaw here. The functionality that is claimed "lost" by a few posters is still there.

What is it that these posters are missing ? If they renamed "Duplicate" to "Save As" would that make these guys happy ? Is it because "Duplicate" is now "Save As" but requires 2 operations (Duplicate, then save) ?

It's also completely optional in that 3rd party developers can choose to integrate it or not in their applications. If a workflow works better without versions and works fine with Save As, the developer can leave the option there.

tootall
Sep 5, 2011, 03:24 PM
Lion has duplicate because of the automatic saving. If you would be able to "save as" your last version, you are actually only duplicating it... so Apple called it "duplicate". "Save as" would only make sense in a system that does not automatically save your file. Now to each to determine which is the greater evil...

talmy
Sep 5, 2011, 05:06 PM
Lion has duplicate because of the automatic saving. If you would be able to "save as" your last version, you are actually only duplicating it... so Apple called it "duplicate". "Save as" would only make sense in a system that does not automatically save your file. Now to each to determine which is the greater evil...

You can have both at the same time. I use Eazydraw which has Save As and Duplicate and also autosaves and supports Versions. Doing a SaveAs is the same as doing a Duplicate, followed by a save of the new document, then going to to the original document and closing it. So you only end up with the new document open which has no version history. If you wanted to create many different versions of the original you would have to reopen the original document after each Save As.

KnightWRX
Sep 5, 2011, 05:23 PM
You can have both at the same time. I use Eazydraw which has Save As and Duplicate and also autosaves and supports Versions. Doing a SaveAs is the same as doing a Duplicate, followed by a save of the new document, then going to to the original document and closing it. So you only end up with the new document open which has no version history. If you wanted to create many different versions of the original you would have to reopen the original document after each Save As.

Exactly, it's different, not gone. Hence I don't get all the people saying "Save As" is gone!

And it's optional, it's up to the app developer to provide the functionality. They could very well offer "Save As" and "Duplicate" and Versions. Just make sure to submit feedback if you really want "Save As", but know that it is still there already.

Azathoth
Sep 9, 2011, 03:11 PM
Exactly, it's different, not gone. Hence I don't get all the people saying "Save As" is gone!

And it's optional, it's up to the app developer to provide the functionality. They could very well offer "Save As" and "Duplicate" and Versions. Just make sure to submit feedback if you really want "Save As", but know that it is still there already.

Except that this auto-save doesn't work properly on mounted drives (e.g. SMB mounts of Linux file systems) - which get overwritten with temporary changes. Great way to destroy my company's documents.

talmy
Sep 9, 2011, 03:29 PM
Except that this auto-save doesn't work properly on mounted drives (e.g. SMB mounts of Linux file systems) - which get overwritten with temporary changes. Great way to destroy my company's documents.

Leave feedback on this. (I have!)

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

It's not just network mounts but also USB flash drives. In most cases you don't get a warning about the problem until it is too late. Certainly autosave should be disabled on documents for which Versions can't work.

My "workaround" is to rely on file locking and making duplicates of docs I intend to modify. Frankly, important documents should be write protected anyway as even without auto-save it is too easy to overwrite them.

Azathoth
Sep 9, 2011, 07:41 PM
Leave feedback on this. (I have!)

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

It's not just network mounts but also USB flash drives. In most cases you don't get a warning about the problem until it is too late. Certainly autosave should be disabled on documents for which Versions can't work.

My "workaround" is to rely on file locking and making duplicates of docs I intend to modify. Frankly, important documents should be write protected anyway as even without auto-save it is too easy to overwrite them.

I'll never be able to get everyone else in the office to lock their files - normally it's not been a problem in the 10 years Ive worked for the company (we're linux based) - yeah we chmod quite a few of them, but really, who wants to do that for every file they create?

In any case, locking then means I can't easily rotate some pages (schematics) without the paperclip , erm I mean Duplicate dialog box, appearing. I want to look at an image, maybe rotate it and close it without saving or duplicating.

It's the biggest UI FUBAR since Springy the paperclip, but with the added fun-factor of potential data loss on non-HFS+ drives.

Feedback to Apple duly delivered. I've also sent a mail out to my colleagues - about 1/3 of my workplace use Macs and until this gets resolved I will recommend that they don't upgrade - unfortunately I really wanted a new MBA, I just never realised that OS X Lion would made such a fundamental change without allowing the user to turn off such a feature!

I *could* use Adobe Acrobat instead of Preview to read PDFs and get rid of TextEdit - but both are the nice OS X built in apps that I love(d) to use. Until now.

I also wonder *how* I'm going to explain the concept of Duplicate and versions to my mother. "This file is locked". Huh? Seriously, was the old concept of saving a file really that hard?

My apologies to all - it's late and I'm ranting.

hayesk
Sep 9, 2011, 08:24 PM
If you aren't sure about saving the changes, then you should be duplicating them. Imagine if you were editing the original, unlocked document, wanted to select all, but hit command-S,W instead of command-A - boom, your changes are gone. It's not hard to imagine, a finger-slip could easily hit the S and then W when reaching for the A. Or what would happen if the network connection was dropped while saving a file on the server?

Even long before Lion, I never edit files off of the server or USB stick (it's slower to save anyway). I make a duplicate, edit and save to my heart's content, and then copy the file back when I'm finished. It's safer that way.

talmy
Sep 9, 2011, 08:37 PM
I also wonder *how* I'm going to explain the concept of Duplicate and versions to my mother. "This file is locked". Huh? Seriously, was the old concept of saving a file really that hard?

I don't know your mother, but I think a computer novice with no preconceived notions would have no trouble with the concept. If you have a document and wanted to alter it but keep the original, wouldn't you use a copy machine first ("duplicate")?

Riemann Zeta
Sep 9, 2011, 11:07 PM
If you aren't sure about saving the changes, then you should be duplicating them. Imagine if you were editing the original, unlocked document, wanted to select all, but hit command-S,W instead of command-A - boom, your changes are gone. It's not hard to imagine, a finger-slip could easily hit the S and then W when reaching for the A. Or what would happen if the network connection was dropped while saving a file on the server?
Have you ever opened an image file or PDF and wanted to do something to enhance the readability onscreen (by say rotating, zooming or changing the color profile) but didn't necessarily want to permanently overwrite the original? Well now you are SOL because of Lion: you either have to go back and fish out the original from the time machine-like screen or make a completely needless copy of the file just to be able to look at it. I really regret installing Lion because of this stupid 'do-it-our-way-or-you-are-screwed' autosave, which is a shame, because other things about Lion aren't bad.

talmy
Sep 9, 2011, 11:44 PM
Have you ever opened an image file or PDF and wanted to do something to enhance the readability onscreen (by say rotating, zooming or changing the color profile) but didn't necessarily want to permanently overwrite the original? Well now you are SOL because of Lion: you either have to go back and fish out the original from the time machine-like screen or make a completely needless copy of the file just to be able to look at it. I really regret installing Lion because of this stupid 'do-it-our-way-or-you-are-screwed' autosave, which is a shame, because other things about Lion aren't bad.

I remember back when I was using Windows that I had to remember never to rotate an image in Windows Explorer because it altered the original file.

Even with Snow Leopard, when you rotate it makes a copy. You are just asked if you want to save it (and, of course, you say "no").

In Lion, if the file hasn't been changed in two weeks it gets locked. You can't accidentally modify a locked file. You get the choice to either alter the original or make a duplicate. No such protection for newer files, although you can lock them manually.

Even if you alter the original, you can do a "revert to saved" as long as you haven't closed the file. It's only if you have closed the file that you have to go back with Versions. Even if you do a revert to save it will save a version in the edited state.

This means you are protected against accidental edits and accidental quits without saving (as long as the file has a name). Snow Leopard protected against neither accident.

As previously noted, this doesn't work right with network shares, so if you have your files on a share leave feedback on apple.com/feedback.