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leekohler
Apr 20, 2005, 03:26 PM
Am I the only one who thinks that a bunch of people praying to a water stain is frightening?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/20/mary.underpass.ap/index.html

emw
Apr 20, 2005, 03:31 PM
To me it looks more like Jack's girlfriend in The Nightmare Before Christmas.

Daveway
Apr 20, 2005, 03:31 PM
We Catholics can do some strange things. I'm not with that bizarre train of thought. That's just weird.

leekohler
Apr 20, 2005, 03:34 PM
We Catholics can do some strange things.

Oh-speaking of strange things, did you know there are flames behind your head? What do you think that means? :)

jayscheuerle
Apr 20, 2005, 03:36 PM
A disproportionately large segment of the American population is extremely stupid. We are witnessing a modern-day Rome before the fall; soft, both in body and mind, resting on laurels of generations past, spending more time on the vicarious experience of entertainment instead of creation and invention.

See China and India in the rearview mirror? They're closer than they appear...

leekohler
Apr 20, 2005, 03:38 PM
A disproportionately large segment of the American population is extremely stupid. We are witnessing a modern-day Rome before the fall; soft, both in body and mind, resting on laurels of generations past, spending more time on the vicarious experience of entertainment instead of creation and invention.

See China and India in the rearview mirror? They're closer than they appear...

I agree with you entirely. Stupidity is the one thing that really angers me. I get angry a lot.

rainman::|:|
Apr 20, 2005, 03:42 PM
What are you guys talking about? that is *so* the virgin mary. and it's so obvious, I mean, where else would she appear? in a tortilla? in a cloud? in the smeary rainbows on a church window? um...

problem with the V.M. is that the shape is so generic... basically all it has to be is round. see here, i've made a virgin mary out of a rubberband and some pushpins. Oh, right, you guys can't see this. Well it's going on ebay anyway...

leekohler
Apr 20, 2005, 03:44 PM
A friend of mine and I were thinking about going to wash it off, but then realized we might get beaten to death. :)

jayscheuerle
Apr 20, 2005, 03:44 PM
I get angry a lot.

Ironically, that's a big problem in the States as well. We have an "anger management" issue where we go from cool to boiling instantaneously, where it's fine to cut people off while driving, give them the finger, key the car that parked in your space, shoot the kid that bullies you, etc.

Though I know this, I seem to anger easily myself. Especially after a few beers... :rolleyes:

leekohler
Apr 20, 2005, 03:45 PM
Ironically, that's a big problem in the States as well. We have an "anger management" issue where we go from cool to boiling instantaneously, where it's fine to cut people off while driving, give them the finger, key the car that parked in your space, shoot the kid that bullies you, etc.

Though I know this, I seem to anger easily myself. Especially after a few beers... :rolleyes:

I was joking-mainly I ignore the stupid. :)

emw
Apr 20, 2005, 03:46 PM
Though I know this, I seem to anger easily myself.Judging from your location note, I'd probably agree :p

jayscheuerle
Apr 20, 2005, 03:53 PM
Judging from your location note, I'd probably agree :p

I'm a transplant.

Idiocy is as rare as oxygen here. F-bombs fall like snowflakes in a blizzard from 10 year old's mouths, the ice-cream man comes at 9:30 on a school-night and kicking trash into the sewer grate counts as cleaning up.

On the other hand, my neighbor brought me a big plate of food within 15 minutes of pulling my moving van up...

love/hate...

emw
Apr 20, 2005, 03:59 PM
I'm a transplant. I meant the "You got a problem wi' dat" part
;)

FoxyKaye
Apr 20, 2005, 04:10 PM
This article has kept me laughing all day. It's like, above-the-fold top news on at least three news sites. I gotta find a way on to the Virgin Mary train, it looks like a serious moneymaker. Next Virgin Mary appearance in California's going to be mine - and I'm charging admission, darnit!

I mean, that a bunch of folks are 1) stupid enough to read a Virgin Mary in to a water stain (or grilled cheese sandwich), and 2) willing to erect an alter to it in the middle of a highway underpass really explains a lot to me about why our country has the leadership it does.

Metatron
Apr 20, 2005, 04:10 PM
There are alot more convincing pictures of Mary out there. Google them. They are interesting.

But people, this one is obvious compared to some of the ones you can google. It is a water stain that left a mineral diposite.

I do not want to sound mean, but that is just crazy.

FoxyKaye
Apr 20, 2005, 04:12 PM
Oh-speaking of strange things, did you know there are flames behind your head? What do you think that means? :)

Oh, I always thought his avatar was a young Bill Gates in hell...

leekohler
Apr 20, 2005, 04:14 PM
I mean, that a bunch of folks are 1) stupid enough to read a Virgin Mary in to a water stain (or grilled cheese sandwich), and 2) willing to erect an alter to it in the middle of a highway underpass really explains a lot to me about why our country has the leadership it does.

No kidding! I live here in Chicago and I'm embarrassed. I guess there are morons everywhere.

leekohler
Apr 20, 2005, 04:15 PM
Oh, I always thought his avatar was a young Bill Gates in hell...

OMG! Wow-I feel stupid. Sorry Daveway! :)

Lacero
Apr 20, 2005, 04:51 PM
Looks like they are praying to piss stains. There's a lot of that sort of thing, plus, poopy stains littered around Vancouver at Granville and Hastings, when I went to visit there to do a TV report of the drug use in Vancouver Chinatown. I must've seen 10-20 Virgin Mary's while filming in the back alleys and such.

feakbeak
Apr 20, 2005, 04:58 PM
The worst part is that the American media panders to these morons. Instead of just quoting these idiots the CNN article should have started like this:

There is a leak in the wall of a freeway underpass that has left a water stain. A large number of mentally deficient and/or psychologically disturbed people believe this is a sign of god. They have been so inspired by this watermark that instead of being productive they have decided to place trinkets and trash in front of the water stain and then proceed to stare at it - occasionally taking pictures.

There is speculation that once the leak is repaired and the water stain clears up that these mentally ill people will lose faith in god, plunging them into the evils of atheism, believing their god has forsaken them.
What the hell is wrong with the media in this country? How can these idiots be referred to as "a steady stream of the faithful and the curious" but, when the overwhelming majority of the scientific community says that global warming is now more than a theory, it is a reality the media treats it as mere speculation. I suppose if the Antarctic ice shelves melt into the shape of something vaguely religious it might get some attention. Although, it will probably just be used to support the idea that god likes global warming. :rolleyes:

I guess all we can hope for is that a few of these idiots will get hit by passing motorists. I'm sure many visiting this holy site are nominees for the Darwin Award.

leekohler
Apr 20, 2005, 05:04 PM
I guess all we can hope for is that a few of these idiots will get hit by passing motorists. I'm sure many visiting this holy site are nominees for the Darwin Award.

Sorry to disappoint you, but the police are out there with squad cars and have part of the lane blocked off so no one gets hurt! THAT is really and truly scary! At least that's what the TV news is showing here.

Balin64
Apr 20, 2005, 05:16 PM
I agree with you guys. Yes, our country is in serious trouble and our collective IQ is around 30.

On topic, I have seen similar ocurrences, especially growing up in Southern California. While I never agreed, or actually saw thge image most saw, some people were genuinely uplifted and touched. So, if at least one person is brought out from hopelessness at least for a few moments... who we are we to judge.

And to the guy who suggested to clean it off: not only will you probably be beaten to Death, but then then as your soul ascends to heaven, you realize... it's actually true! And the Virgin Mary is waiting for you with a not-so amused look. THEN you'll be screwed! :D

feakbeak
Apr 20, 2005, 05:20 PM
Sorry to disappoint you, but the police are out there with squad cars and have part of the lane blocked off so no one gets hurt! THAT is really and truly scary! At least that's what the TV news is showing here.Hey, that's not fair! If someone is dumb enough to stand in a freeway lane staring at a mineral deposit stain they deserve to die.

Lacero
Apr 20, 2005, 05:22 PM
Hey, that's not fair! If someone is dumb enough to stand in a freeway lane staring at a mineral deposit stain they deserve to die. :eek: Wow. That is why they are Catholics and you are not!

emw
Apr 20, 2005, 05:24 PM
Sorry to disappoint you, but the police are out there with squad cars and have part of the lane blocked off so no one gets hurt! THAT is really and truly scary! At least that's what the TV news is showing here.Great. They're blocking off a lane on the Kennedy? During rush hour? So these morons can go pray to a water stain? Please.

daveL
Apr 20, 2005, 05:32 PM
I hesitate to wonder what they'd see if they took the time to watch the clouds go by, but then that's such a fleeting event; you can't capture it and show it to the world.

feakbeak
Apr 20, 2005, 05:32 PM
:eek: Wow. That is why they are Catholics and you are not!You have a point. "Deserve" might be too strong a word but it certainly would be their own fault. Do we really need police to stop people from hurting themselves? Wouldn't the police be better utilized in stopping people from hurting other, innocent people?

This stuff happens all the time, nothing wrong with a little chlorine in the gene pool. It's not mean, it's nature. Check it out: Darwin Awards (http://www.darwinawards.com/)

Lacero
Apr 20, 2005, 05:36 PM
Actually I meant it as a joke. ;)

jayscheuerle
Apr 20, 2005, 07:23 PM
:eek: Wow. That is why they are Catholics and you are not!

No, these are idiots who practice Catholicism. Let's not drag down the whole Papally sanctified load of em...

yg17
Apr 20, 2005, 07:48 PM
Good thing they have the lane blocked off, I'd be tempted to rent an H2 and drive up there and run them over. Idiots. Really, anyone dumb enough to a) believe a water stain on an underpass is the virgin mary and b) stand in rush hour traffic to worship the damn thing are wasting oxygen for those of us who have some common sense.

G4scott
Apr 20, 2005, 07:58 PM
You may laugh, and poke fun at these people, but with if an image of Steve Jobs, holding a G5 PowerBook appeared on the other side of the overpass?

PlaceofDis
Apr 20, 2005, 08:03 PM
im sure glad that im not driving on the Kennedy right now, what exit is this at, or what underpass? the Kennedy is pretty big.....if its anywhere near the Kennedy-Edens merger than it must be hell

how did someone find this anyway?! :confused:

mad jew
Apr 20, 2005, 08:59 PM
This has got to be the Best Thread Title Of The Day! :D

Crazy Americans.

deanbo
Apr 20, 2005, 09:13 PM
I agree with you guys. Yes, our country is in serious trouble and our collective IQ is around 30. :D

It is the media you know. Just watch the Farenheit 911 guy. Personally I hold MacRumors responsible. Ha ha ha...

KingSleaze
Apr 20, 2005, 09:30 PM
The most annoying thing about all these people praying/staring at a water stain------I now have to go find another out of the way spot to go pee.

mad jew
Apr 20, 2005, 10:01 PM
I now have to go find another out of the way spot to go pee.


But do you really?... ;)

Chip NoVaMac
Apr 20, 2005, 10:49 PM
There are alot more convincing pictures of Mary out there. Google them. They are interesting.

But people, this one is obvious compared to some of the ones you can google. It is a water stain that left a mineral diposite.

I do not want to sound mean, but that is just crazy.

But for the Faithful, should it matter how the image got there?

Not to you directly. But I find it odd the intolerance of some in these peoples beliefs. Is it any different than the posts I see here that people "find" HTML references to non-exsistant products?

leekohler
Apr 20, 2005, 11:24 PM
But for the Faithful, should it matter how the image got there?

Not to you directly. But I find it odd the intolerance of some in these peoples beliefs. Is it any different than the posts I see here that people "find" HTML references to non-exsistant products?

Nope. It's no different. Both are just as stupid. Sorry Chip-gotta tell you, this is not intolerance, it's pointing out stupidity. It's a water/salt stain! Give me a break! :) Respecting people's beliefs is one thing, but this is ridiculous. BTW- a reporter out there observed a homeless guy not too far from the site. None of the "faithful" would give him the time of day-not one. They just walked right by him.

jayscheuerle
Apr 21, 2005, 07:52 AM
Nope. It's no different. Both are just as stupid. Sorry Chip-gotta tell you, this is not intolerance, it's pointing out stupidity. It's a water/salt stain! Give me a break! :) Respecting people's beliefs is one thing, but this is ridiculous. BTW- a reporter out there observed a homeless guy not too far from the site. None of the "faithful" would give him the time of day-not one. They just walked right by him.

Who's to say the Lord didn't direct the water and salt to create this haunting image? Such are HIS mysterious ways...

Am I the only perv that sees a connection between this hooded "Virgin Mary is EVERYWHERE" shape and female genitalia? I'm betting the internet is FULL of little pink Virgin Marys and yet not ONE of them has made the news or is up on Ebay! Maybe diehard Christians never get close enough to notice the resemblance, but my own epiphanies at such moments are often closely followed by shouting of the Lord's name. :eek:

leekohler
Apr 21, 2005, 09:00 AM
Who's to say the Lord didn't direct the water and salt to create this haunting image? Such are HIS mysterious ways...

Am I the only perv that sees a connection between this hooded "Virgin Mary is EVERYWHERE" shape and female genitalia? I'm betting the internet is FULL of little pink Virgin Marys and yet not ONE of them has made the news or is up on Ebay! Maybe diehard Christians never get close enough to notice the resemblance, but my own epiphanies at such moments are often closely followed by shouting of the Lord's name. :eek:

Umm-yeah, I noticed. I thought "well it doesn't look like Mary, but it does look like something else." :)

leekohler
Apr 21, 2005, 09:08 AM
This has got to be the Best Thread Title Of The Day! :D

Crazy Americans.

Unfortunately, I can't take credit for the title. The Chicago Sun-Times did it first. :)

jayscheuerle
Apr 21, 2005, 09:10 AM
Umm-yeah, I noticed. I thought "well it doesn't look like Mary, but it does look like something else." :)

We're not the only ones:

Vagin Mary (http://cellar.org/iotd.php?threadid=8152)

Lady of the Underpants (http://www.zug.com/gab/index.cgi?func=view_thread&thread_id=53248)

HOLEy Mother (http://forums.zgeek.com/showthread.php?t=33615&page=1&pp=15)

leekohler
Apr 21, 2005, 09:19 AM
We're not the only ones:

Vagin Mary (http://cellar.org/iotd.php?threadid=8152)

Lady of the Underpants (http://www.zug.com/gab/index.cgi?func=view_thread&thread_id=53248)

Those were hilarious! Thanks!

jayscheuerle
Apr 21, 2005, 09:37 AM
Does this count as posting pornography?

leekohler
Apr 21, 2005, 09:39 AM
Eek! Be careful! I think it might.

Lord Blackadder
Apr 21, 2005, 11:17 AM
I'm Catholic, and I don't think it looks like Mary. It looks like a stain. In fact, most stains made by water running out of joints in concrete look roughly like that. You have to remember that this is grassroots stuff, the Vatican usually doesn't acknowledge this sort of thing, so one can hardly attribute this to a "Catholic" behavior.

The only reason that this incident is dumber than the grilled cheese thing is that in this case people have built a shrine in a freeway underpass and stand there staring.

And jayscheurle, yes I see the resemblence (sort of I guess) but I'll say no more. Its just a stain.

leekohler
Apr 21, 2005, 12:09 PM
I'm Catholic, and I don't think it looks like Mary. It looks like a stain. In fact, most stains made by water running out of joints in concrete look roughly like that. You have to remember that this is grassroots stuff, the Vatican usually doesn't acknowledge this sort of thing, so one can hardly attribute this to a "Catholic" behavior.

The only reason that this incident is dumber than the grilled cheese thing is that in this case people have built a shrine in a freeway underpass and stand there staring.

And jayscheurle, yes I see the resemblence (sort of I guess) but I'll say no more. Its just a stain.

Thank you! As I said earlier, I don't think anyone here is out to bash Catholics.

vniow
Apr 21, 2005, 01:27 PM
Does this count as posting pornography?

If this were any other forum, that would be my avatar.

wdlove
Apr 21, 2005, 01:38 PM
Many studies have been done showing it's human nature to see the human form in an unfamiliar object. Catholics just happen to have their focus on the Virgin Mary, so that may explain why this occurs so often. Not too long ago this happened in the Boston area. It was on window of a hospital, crowds flocked there and took of part of the parking lot.

leekohler
Apr 21, 2005, 01:47 PM
Many studies have been done showing it's human nature to see the human form in an unfamiliar object. Catholics just happen to have their focus on the Virgin Mary, so that may explain why this occurs so often. Not too long ago this happened in the Boston area. It was on window of a hospital, crowds flocked there and took of part of the parking lot.

So-does that make it any less ridiculous?

Lord Blackadder
Apr 21, 2005, 01:53 PM
If this were any other forum, that would be my avatar.

I wouldn't worry, most people would just see a religious icon. :D

jayscheuerle
Apr 21, 2005, 02:22 PM
I wouldn't worry, most people would just see a religious icon. :D

pun intended? :p

leekohler
Apr 21, 2005, 02:29 PM
pun intended? :p

You're rotten! :)

Hemingray
Apr 21, 2005, 04:01 PM
This truly frightens me.

How easy would it be for the Antichrist to get his foot in the door here? Show these people the bottom of his shoe has a gum spot shaped like the Virgin Mary. Bam.

This is our society, folks. People praying to mineral deposits on freeway underpasses. Woohoo! :cool:

Daveway
Apr 21, 2005, 04:03 PM
Oh-speaking of strange things, did you know there are flames behind your head? What do you think that means? :)

(caugh, caugh) Bill Gates sir. ;)

leekohler
Apr 21, 2005, 04:06 PM
(caugh, caugh) Bill Gates sir. ;)

Oh yeah- I know! Did you see my other post apologizing to you for not realizing it? :)

leekohler
Apr 21, 2005, 04:07 PM
This truly frightens me.

How easy would it be for the Antichrist to get his foot in the door here? Show these people the bottom of his shoe has a gum spot shaped like the Virgin Mary. Bam.

This is our society, folks. People praying to mineral deposits on freeway underpasses. Woohoo! :cool:

And before you know it, snake oil will cure everything again too.

Daveway
Apr 21, 2005, 04:10 PM
Oh yeah- I know! Did you see my other post apologizing to you for not realizing it? :)


Yea, but I wanted to contest myself. BTW: when Longhorn goes beta I'm putting a halo and bright skies behind him. :p

Oh yeah about the Mary picture. Even though I'm Catholic I look down on people like this because they are almost worshipping this water stain instead of honoring it. It gives a bad name to Cathlolics by embarrasing us. I don't see Mary in that. My mother is convinced she she saw Mary in the tree in our backyard.

leekohler
Apr 21, 2005, 04:14 PM
Yea, but I wanted to contest myself. BTW: when Longhorn goes beta I'm putting a halo and bright skies behind him. :p

Oh yeah about the Mary picture. Even though I'm Catholic I look down on people like this because they are almost worshipping this water stain instead of honoring it. It gives a bad name to Cathlolics by embarrasing us. I don't see Mary in that. My mother is convinced she she saw Mary in the tree in our backyard.

Right- I think it is embarrassing to our country as a whole. But we're talking about really goofy people here- I wouldn't really call them Catholics. I'd call them nuts. :)

feakbeak
Apr 21, 2005, 04:14 PM
Yea, but I wanted to contest myself. BTW: when Longhorn goes beta I'm putting a halo and bright skies behind him. :p

Oh yeah about the Mary picture. Even though I'm Catholic I look down on people like this because they are almost worshipping this water stain instead of honoring it. It gives a bad name to Cathlolics by embarrasing us. I don't see Mary in that. My mother is convinced she she saw Mary in the tree in our backyard.I feel for you Daveway. You don't deserve to be associated with these people. Always the loud/bizarre minority giving everyone else a bad reputation.

It does seem like the Catholic church is pre-occupied with the Virgin Mary a lot though. Isn't it all about Jesus dying for your sins and him leading you to God the Father? Do you know what the Mary fetish is all about? I never really understood that.

zelmo
Apr 21, 2005, 04:16 PM
But do you really?... ;)

Thank you for that. Really, that made me laugh out loud.

Next winter, when there's a bit of snow on the ground, I'm gonna drink a six of Sam Adams and piss me a Virgin Mary drawing in the back yard. Then, I'll take a picture and sell it on eBay. Then I'll collect the snow from around the "miracle", let it melt, and fill many small Lucite blocks each with an ounce of the resulting water and sell those on eBay. Then I'll take some of the proceeds (ought to be several hundred thousand dollars) and fly out to Chicago, and hire someone to paint over that underpass.

leekohler
Apr 21, 2005, 04:19 PM
Thank you for that. Really, that made me laugh out loud.

Next winter, when there's a bit of snow on the ground, I'm gonna drink a six of Sam Adams and piss me a Virgin Mary drawing in the back yard. Then, I'll take a picture and sell it on eBay. Then I'll collect the snow from around the "miracle", let it melt, and fill many small Lucite blocks each with an ounce of the resulting water and sell those on eBay. Then I'll take some of the proceeds (ought to be several hundred thousand dollars) and fly out to Chicago, and hire someone to paint over that underpass.

Well, I COULD use the money. :)

Daveway
Apr 21, 2005, 04:44 PM
I feel for you Daveway. You don't deserve to be associated with these people. Always the loud/bizarre minority giving everyone else a bad reputation.

It does seem like the Catholic church is pre-occupied with the Virgin Mary a lot though. Isn't it all about Jesus dying for your sins and him leading you to God the Father? Do you know what the Mary fetish is all about? I never really understood that.

I've thought about converting to maybe just a regulr Christian church before. There are just too many things that I don't agree with now. My aunt left the church to become non-denominational a few years ago and it drove my family nuts. I live in the deepest part of the south, the belt buckel of the Bible belt! My whole town is Catholic.

leekohler
Apr 21, 2005, 05:08 PM
I've thought about converting to maybe just a regulr Christian church before. There are just too many things that I don't agree with now. My aunt left the church to become non-denominational a few years ago and it drove my family nuts. I live in the deepest part of the south, the belt buckel of the Bible belt! My whole town is Catholic.

So, you think your parents would flip out on you if you left? I mean as long as you're still Christian, does it really matter if your Catholic too?

Daveway
Apr 21, 2005, 05:11 PM
So, you think your parents would flip out on you if you left? I mean as long as you're still Christian, does it really matter if your Catholic too?

Yes, Yes it does. Not so much to my mom as everyone else. I'm a very well known person in my parish (weekly lectorer, comm. service, etc.) and it would give me a bad image.

FoxyKaye
Apr 21, 2005, 05:12 PM
...I have a big badass pentagram including ritual runes tatooed on my back...
No kidding! I've got a phases of the moon with a pentagram at its center tattooed as a wrap-around on my forearm. I thought I was the only witch/pagan on this entire site - it gives me great liberty to comment on the Christian stuff that crops up all the time, like seeing the Virgin Mary, the Pope, anti-gay churches, etc...

leekohler
Apr 21, 2005, 05:14 PM
Yes, Yes it does. Not so much to my mom as everyone else. I'm a very well known person in my parish (weekly lectorer, comm. service, etc.) and it would give me a bad image.

Oh- wow. Yeah, I can see why that would be the case. Have you ever discussed your issues with the church with your family before? I know that can be REALLY difficult. I grew up in a fundamentalist family and you could only ask so many questions before it got a bit ugly.

clayj
Apr 21, 2005, 05:19 PM
This truly frightens me.

How easy would it be for the Antichrist to get his foot in the door here? Show these people the bottom of his shoe has a gum spot shaped like the Virgin Mary. Bam.

This is our society, folks. People praying to mineral deposits on freeway underpasses. Woohoo! :cool:Actually, not sure how many of you have seen that Revelations show on NBC, but last night's episode posited that the child that Massey and Montefiore are looking for might, in fact, be the Antichrist... the ship that saved the "Miracle Child" sank shortly after dropping him off... he "cured" people who were ill, but they died after he was taken elsewhere... and the church where he was shown in the first episode burned after he was taken away. The problem, of course, is that the Antichrist is ALSO capable of performing "miracles", so there's a very real possibility that some will be fooled by "miracles" into following the wrong path.

Lacero
Apr 21, 2005, 05:21 PM
One of the horsemen of the Apocalypse - the False Messiah, or worshipping a false God... a piss stain at an underpass would certainly qualify!

brap
Apr 21, 2005, 05:21 PM
Here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/americas_miracle_or_mistake0/html/1.stm) are a few more questionable Mary sightings...

Every now and again I need something like this to reaffirm my faith. In sociopathy.

feakbeak
Apr 21, 2005, 05:26 PM
Heh, yeah. Yours normal or inverse? Wiccans use the normal one, Satanists use the inverse one. Mine's inverse with the goat's head inside. Although I would place my "faith" not completely into Satanism.Okay, I realize we're thread-jacking here, but I'm really curious because I've never met a satanist before. What exactly is the point of the religion? What are the goals/aims? Were you in the religion thread at all?

Christians usually try to get everyone saved to go to heaven. Does this mean you try to get everyone into hell? If so, why? Do you like warmer temperatures or is it more just a matter of taking a counter-culture attitude to the max?

I know I have humor mixed in here, but I'm honestly curious.

leekohler
Apr 21, 2005, 05:29 PM
Okay, I realize we're thread-jacking here, but I'm really curious because I've never met a satanist before. What exactly is the point of the religion? What are the goals/aims? Were you in the religion thread at all?

Christians usually try to get everyone saved to go to heaven. Does this mean you try to get everyone into hell? If so, why? Do you like warmer temperatures or is it more just a matter of taking a counter-culture attitude to the max?

I know I have humor mixed in here, but I'm honestly curious.

Satanism- as I at least understand it, is essentially self-worship. Would that be about right AhmedFaisal? And stop hijacking my thread feakbeak. :)

Lacero
Apr 21, 2005, 05:29 PM
Satanism is like rooting for the underdog. :p

feakbeak
Apr 21, 2005, 05:37 PM
Satanism- as I at least understand it, is essentially self-worship. Would that be about right AhmedFaisal?Hell (pun intended), if I'm going to worship myself I'm going to be creative with it. Forget "Satanism"... say hello to "The Church of Feakbeak". I'm the "Head Feakbeak Monk" which means I get special powers and can make up holidays at my very whim. "Nope, sorry boss, can't come in today... it's um... BeakBeak Day, yeah. I have to go out and have a dozen drinks, nice dinner, get laid. It's a ritual thing. Tomorrow is a day of reflection for BeakBeak Day, so I won't be in until next week." ;)

I'll also have to find some sheep-like people. These mineral deposit, virgin mary people ought to do... and have them make a statue of me... Oh, I'm getting carried away. Satanism could be fun.... wheee!

leekohler
Apr 21, 2005, 05:41 PM
Hell (pun intended), if I'm going to worship myself I'm going to be creative with it. Forget "Satanism"... say hello to "The Church of Feakbeak". I'm the "Head Feakbeak Monk" which means I get special powers and can make up holidays at my very whim. "Nope, sorry boss, can't come in today... it's um... BeakBeak Day, yeah. I have to go out and have a dozen drinks, nice dinner, get laid. It's a ritual thing. Tomorrow is a day of reflection for BeakBeak Day, so I won't be in until next week." ;)

Ha-ha! Well, I think there's more to it than that. AhmedFaisal, care to get more in depth? OOPS! Wait- you just did. :)

I actually had some friends in college who were into various religions, I kind of learned about it through them. Religion really isn't my cup of tea though.

mactastic
Apr 21, 2005, 05:42 PM
I thought I was the only witch/pagan on this entire site...

Well she doesn't post here, but I'm married to one. ;)

clayj
Apr 21, 2005, 05:45 PM
Satanism is like rooting for the underdog. :pWho says he's the underdog? As Al Pacino (John Milton) said in The Devil's Advocate, "Consider the source." In the Bible, yes, God defeats Satan... but who wrote the Bible?

Satanists don't consider Hell to be a bad place to end up, because either (1) they don't believe the Biblical definition of what Hell is like, or (2) they actually look forward to going to Hell, whatever it may be like.

(Not that I am in any way a Satanist... I'm nominally Episcopalian, which means I go to church about twice a year, Christmas and Easter. But I am capable of objective analysis of things that I don't necessarily agree with.)

leekohler
Apr 21, 2005, 05:48 PM
Its not mine either. I would consider myself an intellectual satanist. I do meditate according to satanist rituals but I don't believe in demons or satan as an individual entity as itself. Satanism to me and my companions is a philosopical standpoint and guide of life. I wouldn't call it a religion.
Regards,

Ahmed

I guess that was the the point I was trying to make in my earlier post. That it's not really a religion per se, more like self-fulfillment.

mactastic
Apr 21, 2005, 05:50 PM
Boy are we getting some great gooogle ads now! WTF is Hell's Army Store???

leekohler
Apr 21, 2005, 05:51 PM
Boy are we getting some great gooogle ads now! WTF is Hell's Army Store???

Ha-ha! I noticed that.

Lacero
Apr 21, 2005, 05:53 PM
I've never met a Satanist before. It was nice meeting you.

Hemingray
Apr 21, 2005, 06:22 PM
Satanism could be fun.... wheee!

LOL! I found that quite humorous. :)

No offense to Ahmed, of course.

Lacero
Apr 21, 2005, 07:48 PM
Boy are we getting some great gooogle ads now! WTF is Hell's Army Store???
LOL!

http://www3.telus.net/poojja/wicca.gif

stubeeef
Apr 21, 2005, 08:06 PM
You may laugh, and poke fun at these people, but with if an image of Steve Jobs, holding a G5 PowerBook appeared on the other side of the overpass?


BEST POST OF THE DAY!

From one cult to the other! You Sir are a steely eyed missle man.

leekohler
Apr 21, 2005, 10:42 PM
Wow- this thread sure has gotten interesting!

leekohler
Apr 22, 2005, 12:33 PM
Dear God it just won't stop. It's now day five of attack of the idiots. I guess this also made it to the BBC. Now the whole world thinks we're fools.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/22/earlyshow/main690089.shtml

brap
Apr 22, 2005, 12:35 PM
Dear God it just won't stop. It's now day five of attack of the idiots. I guess this also made it to the BBC. Now the whole world thinks we're fools.Pft. Like we didn't already. :rolleyes:

leekohler
Apr 22, 2005, 12:38 PM
Pft. Like we didn't already. :rolleyes:

True- but now it's confirmed.

emw
Apr 22, 2005, 12:57 PM
Dear God it just won't stop. It's now day five of attack of the idiots. I guess this also made it to the BBC. Now the whole world thinks we're fools.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/22/earlyshow/main690089.shtmlThe U.S. isn't the only place where these "visions" occur, so we're in a world of idiots.

Of course, most countries think we're idiots for other reasons...

leekohler
Apr 22, 2005, 01:02 PM
The U.S. isn't the only place where these "visions" occur, so we're in a world of idiots.

Of course, most countries think we're idiots for other reasons...

Too true emw, but this is just adding to that list of reasons. :)

stubeeef
Apr 22, 2005, 01:53 PM
The U.S. isn't the only place where these "visions" occur, so we're in a world of idiots.

Of course, most countries think we're idiots for other reasons...

I take solice in the fact that the rest of the world are pretty silly most of the time too. Like Mr Rogers used to say, "everyone is special on the inside" :)

emw
Apr 22, 2005, 02:13 PM
I take solice in the fact that the rest of the world are pretty silly most of the time too. Like Mr Rogers used to say, "everyone is special on the inside" :)To quote the Incredibles, among others, "if everyone is special, no one is." ;)

jayscheuerle
Apr 22, 2005, 02:16 PM
I take solice in the fact that the rest of the world are pretty silly most of the time too. Like Mr Rogers used to say, "everyone is special on the inside" :)

What makes us so bad is that with all our modern conveniences, availability of contemporary world viewpoints and access to an infinite amount of educational resources, we continue to crank out an inexplicably large percentage of damp skulled simpletons.

The cliché grumpy old man would scold us for having too much time on our hands. We let our minds go soft. Our brains our more active while sleeping than they are when we're watching TV, yet we plunk ourselves down for:

According to the A.C. Nielsen Co., the average American watches more than 4 hours of TV each day (or 28 hours/week, or 2 months of nonstop TV-watching per year). In a 65-year life, that person will have spent 9 years glued to the tube.

We're going to keep getting dumber before we start getting smarter (if ever). I'd guess this downward trend started sometime in the mid-70s...

leekohler
Apr 22, 2005, 02:18 PM
I take solice in the fact that the rest of the world are pretty silly most of the time too. Like Mr Rogers used to say, "everyone is special on the inside" :)

Yeah, but if we keep going in this direction and I'm afraid we'll stop being silly and start being frightening! People are praying to a salt stain! An easily explained, naturally occurring event has become the Virgin Mary! If it were a few people out there, I wouldn't care. But we're talking hundreds of people going to pray to a salt stain. Pretty soon, the Earth will be flat again. :) Come on! This kind of crap used to be in the National Enquirer. Now it's considered news by the national media! Is anyone else concerned at all?

jayscheuerle
Apr 22, 2005, 02:34 PM
Yeah, but if we keep going in this direction and I'm afraid we'll stop being silly and start being frightening! People are praying to a salt stain! An easily explained, naturally occurring event has become the Virgin Mary! If it were a few people out there, I wouldn't care. But we're talking hundreds of people going to pray to a salt stain. Pretty soon, the Earth will be flat again. :) Come on! This kind of crap used to be in the National Enquirer. Now it's considered news by the national media! Is anyone else concerned at all?

These are the same people that look at Middle Easterners and think they're all backwards heathens... with no knowledge of what their own modern worship practices owe to the Muslims.

Idle minds are dangerous minds. I don't find these fanatics silly at all...

leekohler
Apr 22, 2005, 02:38 PM
These are the same people that look at Middle Easterners and think they're all backwards heathens... with no knowledge of what their own modern worship practices owe to the Muslims.

Idle minds are dangerous minds. I don't find these fanatics silly at all...

Exactly-and just wait til they start saying why the Virgin Mary appeared in Chicago:

"There's lots of homos there! It's like Sodom and Gamorrah (sp?)!"
"...not to mention it's a blue state full of Godless liberals!"
and "She's there to tell them all that God will not be ignored! They cannot turn away from Him!"

These are NOT just harmless fools, they scare me.

jefhatfield
Apr 22, 2005, 03:13 PM
You may laugh, and poke fun at these people, but with if an image of Steve Jobs, holding a G5 PowerBook appeared on the other side of the overpass?

being a northern californian growing up with a healthy dislike for microsoft, and being an old member of the mac cult (which i don't belong to anymore), i would say it could be downright dangerous ;) either they would rush to the apple stores knocking over everybody in their way or they would think, because the g5 powerbook is not out yet, that there was some joint conspiracy between the us government and microsoft to delay the g5 powerbook's release to make mac users have to suffer

mac zealots are not only stupid, like many say the underpass believers are, but also hate all forms of factual information...when times are bad for apple inc, it's ok to support them, but the mac zealots deny that apple inc ever was in trouble in its darkest hours

every hobby, religion, philosophy has its zealot idiots, and in the computer/high tech arena, i can say i have never seen anybody dumber than mac zealots

btw...macs are better than pc boxes, imho, but that doesn't make the pc side and windows 100% pecent bad in everything they do...and remember, some stuff they have ain't half bad since they copied us in the first place

if those screenshots i have seen of windows longhorn on the internet are correct, the mac zealots will really freak out :)

leekohler
Apr 22, 2005, 03:25 PM
being a northern californian growing up with a healthy dislike for microsoft, and being an old member of the mac cult (which i don't belong to anymore), i would say it could be downright dangerous ;) either they would rush to the apple stores knocking over everybody in their way or they would think, because the g5 powerbook is not out yet, that there was some joint conspiracy between the us government and microsoft to delay the g5 powerbook's release to make mac users have to suffer

mac zealots are not only stupid, like many say the underpass believers are, but also hate all forms of factual information...when times are bad for apple inc, it's ok to support them, but the mac zealots deny that apple inc ever was in trouble in its darkest hours

every hobby, religion, philosophy has its zealot idiots, and in the computer/high tech arena, i can say i have never seen anybody dumber than mac zealots

btw...macs are better than pc boxes, imho, but that doesn't make the pc side and windows 100% pecent bad in everything they do...and remember, some stuff they have ain't half bad since they copied us in the first place

if those screenshots i have seen of windows longhorn on the internet are correct, the mac zealots will really freak out :)

Correct- but I don't think Mac zealots or any hobbyists vote to pass laws against others with whom they disagree. You may think religious fanatics are funny- I don't. They do way too much harm.

FoxyKaye
Apr 22, 2005, 03:34 PM
Heh, yeah. Yours normal or inverse? Wiccans use the normal one, Satanists use the inverse one. Mine's inverse with the goat's head inside. Although I would place my "faith" not completely into Satanism.
Regards,
Ahmed
Nope - mine's the usual one (non-inverted). Not realy a Wiccan though, it's a little too new-agey for me. I've tended to focus my efforts on the older schools of witchcraft (pre-20th century).


Well she doesn't post here, but I'm married to one. ;)
Good to know - it's a small pagan world out there!


Yeah, but if we keep going in this direction and I'm afraid we'll stop being silly and start being frightening! People are praying to a salt stain! An easily explained, naturally occurring event has become the Virgin Mary! If it were a few people out there, I wouldn't care. But we're talking hundreds of people going to pray to a salt stain. Pretty soon, the Earth will be flat again. :) Come on! This kind of crap used to be in the National Enquirer. Now it's considered news by the national media! Is anyone else concerned at all?
Very, deeply, sadly.

CubaTBird
Apr 22, 2005, 03:39 PM
i think its for real.. could this have been tied into the new popes arrival? hrm..

ColoJohnBoy
Apr 22, 2005, 08:12 PM
I have a birthmark on my ass that looks strikingly like a naked Ernest Borgnine. Does anyone want to worship my ass now?

jefhatfield
Apr 22, 2005, 08:15 PM
Correct- but I don't think Mac zealots or any hobbyists vote to pass laws against others with whom they disagree. You may think religious fanatics are funny- I don't. They do way too much harm.

i think my fellow evangelicals, i am a left winger btw, should read the new testament

jesus had a powerful message but never did he want to play the role of a politician...he had higher aspirations

today's (right wing) evangelicals are putting their faith in politics, power, and big money and have basically abandoned the message

leekohler
Apr 22, 2005, 08:55 PM
i think my fellow evangelicals, i am a left winger btw, should read the new testament

jesus had a powerful message but never did he want to play the role of a politician...he had higher aspirations

today's (right wing) evangelicals are putting their faith in politics, power, and big money and have basically abandoned the message

Just like many Muslims did in the Middle East and look what's happening now. I just hope that people like you have the courage to stand up and speak out against them-loudly and soon. You guys need to organize and take your religion back. I don't want it to seem that I'm anti-religious. I'm not.

Bubbasteve
Apr 22, 2005, 08:58 PM
Personally I think it looks like a stained wall....I mean that's just my opinion....

leekohler
Apr 22, 2005, 09:00 PM
Personally I think it looks like a stained wall....I mean that's just my opinion....

It does. :)

stubeeef
Apr 22, 2005, 09:37 PM
According to the A.C. Nielsen Co., the average American watches more than 4 hours of TV each day (or 28 hours/week, or 2 months of nonstop TV-watching per year). In a 65-year life, that person will have spent 9 years glued to the tube..

Is it any better to substitute MacRumors and the word TV? Bird watching and TV (especially their mating habits). It is not the TV that is bad it is the channel they watch, hours of MTV or World Wrestling would melt the avg genious down to an 89 IQ inside a year. But substitute the History Channel, Discovery Science, C-Span, Fox News (gottcha!) and things change a wee bit. Then again spend that time in the MR politics forum and really kill time. :eek:

Originally Posted by leekohler
Pretty soon, the Earth will be flat again. Come on! You mean there was a time it wasn't flat?!?!

Link (http://www.nhne.com/features/mary.html)

There have been a sudden spate of books and articles: devotional, descriptive, critical--even empirical research on the sources of Marian devotion. In addition, The Lady seems to currently be on something like a world tour. Reports of apparitions--and followings formed around a variety of seers (primarily female)--has increased dramatically in the past ten years. In the past decade, apparitions, some of them ongoing, have been reported in Canada, Ecuador, Ireland, Italy, Korea, Mexico, Northern Ireland, Switzerland, the Ukraine, Yugoslavia; in the United States in Arkansas, Arizona, Colorado, Georgia, Illinois, Maryland, and more! Some reporters who go to "debunk" the sightings come back with profound religious experiences.

don't think the underpass is the only place, just where we are hearing about it.

Chip NoVaMac
Apr 22, 2005, 10:00 PM
Is it any better to substitute MacRumors and the word TV? Bird watching and TV (especially their mating habits). It is not the TV that is bad it is the channel they watch, hours of MTV or World Wrestling would melt the avg genious down to an 89 IQ inside a year. But substitute the History Channel, Discovery Science, C-Span, Fox News (gottcha!) and things change a wee bit. Then again spend that time in the MR politics forum and really kill time. :eek:

I know that with my soon to be ex, I watched way too much TV. In fact I was thinking about switching to DSL in order to just live off the airwaves instead of cable. Unfortunately DSL is not available in my new neighborhood I found out. So here comes cable. Part of it they make non-sense not to do the TV portion ($55 for cable modem, $57 for cable modem and basic cable). In the last couple weeks I have spent more time listening to my tunes and finding time to play on the computer. :)

leekohler
Apr 23, 2005, 02:28 AM
I know that with my soon to be ex, I watched way too much TV. In fact I was thinking about switching to DSL in order to just live off the airwaves instead of cable. Unfortunately DSL is not available in my new neighborhood I found out. So here comes cable. Part of it they make non-sense not to do the TV portion ($55 for cable modem, $57 for cable modem and basic cable). In the last couple weeks I have spent more time listening to my tunes and finding time to play on the computer. :)

What's wrong with regular broadcast TV? Sure, it's not great but it's free. :)
Plus, you'll watch it less.

840quadra
Apr 23, 2005, 05:00 AM
Anyone have a jack hammer?

Lets cut that thing out and sell it on Ebay with a reserve of $1.2 Million.

If that works, I will stop using Butter and oil to attempt to burn in the image of Mary in my white bread. I am on slice # 450 with no success!!

:eek:

virividox
Apr 23, 2005, 07:08 AM
Anyone have a jack hammer?

Lets cut that thing out and sell it on Ebay with a reserve of $1.2 Million.

If that works, I will stop using Butter and oil to attempt to burn in the image of Mary in my white bread. I am on slice # 450 with no success!!

:eek:


u need to make sure a vegas casino is interested :)

they alread have a holy grilled cheese so maybe that wy the toast wasnt a winner

Chip NoVaMac
Apr 23, 2005, 08:08 AM
What's wrong with regular broadcast TV? Sure, it's not great but it's free. :)
Plus, you'll watch it less.

Going further OT a bit.

I know, but the point was that the cable companies make it silly not to get the basic channels with the cable modem. Just $2 gets better reception and a few more channels. That is why I am disappointed that DSL is not available in my new place. Hate to say it, but I will never go back to dial-up.

leekohler
Apr 23, 2005, 09:51 AM
Anyone have a jack hammer?

Lets cut that thing out and sell it on Ebay with a reserve of $1.2 Million.

If that works, I will stop using Butter and oil to attempt to burn in the image of Mary in my white bread. I am on slice # 450 with no success!!

:eek:

Better yet, let's get an old dark cloth and press it over "Mary". It'll be like a second shroud of Turin. :)

jefhatfield
Apr 23, 2005, 12:02 PM
Just like many Muslims did in the Middle East and look what's happening now. I just hope that people like you have the courage to stand up and speak out against them-loudly and soon. You guys need to organize and take your religion back. I don't want it to seem that I'm anti-religious. I'm not.

i have been fighting apostasy for years

the fundamentalists in the mold of president bush are just the latest in a long line of bad witnesses for christ

true christians, whether they like bush or not, will put their faith in god and not in any certain political party...it would be a mistake for my fellow democrats who are christians to form an organized, powerful, rich, corrupt "christian left"...it's ok for the minister/priest to urge people to vote, but not who for because that should be up to the individual voter

christianity or any major religion i can think of is not about politics...that's what political parties are for ;)

feakbeak
Apr 23, 2005, 12:13 PM
Personally I think it looks like a stained wall....I mean that's just my opinion....It not only looks like a stained wall... it is just a stained wall. :D

feakbeak
Apr 23, 2005, 12:18 PM
i have been fighting apostasy for years

the fundamentalists in the mold of president bush are just the latest in a long line of bad witnesses for christ

true christians, whether they like bush or not, will put their faith in god and not in any certain political party...it would be a mistake for my fellow democrats who are christians to form an organized, powerful, rich, corrupt "christian left"...it's ok for the minister/priest to urge people to vote, but not who for because that should be up to the individual voter

christianity or any major religion i can think of is not about politics...that's what political parties are for ;)Separating religion and government - what a great idea! The US goverment should look into this concept. Oh yeah, that's right... we did. Now, we've seemed to have forgotten about that.

jefhatfield, I wish all Christians were as rational as you are.

jefhatfield
Apr 23, 2005, 08:43 PM
Separating religion and government - what a great idea! The US goverment should look into this concept. Oh yeah, that's right... we did. Now, we've seemed to have forgotten about that.

jefhatfield, I wish all Christians were as rational as you are.

thank you

without being a rational witness to one's faith, it's hard to be a good witness

if a republican christian said they wanted to vote gop because they believed in helping small business and paying off the defecit and thus gave that as their reason for voting for bush, dole, bush jr., etc, then i would totally respect that

but to vote for w because they think he's america's protestant answer to the pope or archbishop would be foolish and many evangelicals voted for bush jr. for religious reasons and that to me defies all reason...and anyway, the pope is not a political figure so being a leader, in spirit, of a billion people is ok

the problem with w is that he can change his christian agenda to that of being an american dictator and invade countries that have not invaded or attacked us...which many in the world believe w has already done

i know there are christians who feel terrible about the war in iraq and i can see it pains them to still support the president when they hear of another rash of deaths of american soldiers who should not be there anyway...they signed up to protect america from their enemies, not be the president's private army for selfish purposes

the more this war goes on, the more the rest of the world will attach christianity to bush and his war and that is a scary thought...much the way that some have attributed islam to the terrorists of 9-11

it may take decades for people to see christianity in america in a good light again...i feel sorry for all those christians who originally laid a strong foundation with the constitution, the abolition of slavery, and organizations which are dedicated to ending disease and starvation

leekohler
Apr 24, 2005, 01:03 AM
i have been fighting apostasy for years

the fundamentalists in the mold of president bush are just the latest in a long line of bad witnesses for christ

true christians, whether they like bush or not, will put their faith in god and not in any certain political party...it would be a mistake for my fellow democrats who are christians to form an organized, powerful, rich, corrupt "christian left"...it's ok for the minister/priest to urge people to vote, but not who for because that should be up to the individual voter

christianity or any major religion i can think of is not about politics...that's what political parties are for ;)

You're right. I guess what I'm saying is not that you should become political, but that you should shout down those who've become so. Let them know how wrong they are. I'm not hearing that from you guys at the moment-no one is. Everyone who's not Christian assumes that all Christians are right wing wackos. Not too many people are hearing that that is not the case. That's what I mean, get your message out. Actually, you may have to become political to get that done. Don't be afraid to do so. If you don't, we may become Iran.

jefhatfield
Apr 24, 2005, 09:12 PM
You're right. I guess what I'm saying is not that you should become political, but that you should shout down those who've become so. Let them know how wrong they are. I'm not hearing that from you guys at the moment-no one is. Everyone who's not Christian assumes that all Christians are right wing wackos. Not too many people are hearing that that is not the case. That's what I mean, get your message out. Actually, you may have to become political to get that done. Don't be afraid to do so. If you don't, we may become Iran.

actually the moral majority is rarely moral and never was or is the majority

if the christian right, and i am talking about the ones who worship right wing politics, get too outspoken, they will only hurt their cause and the results will be seen by the next midterm election

there is no major chance of us turning into an iran quickly

but a hundred years from now, who knows where we will be?

who in 1932 thought that there would be a prominent southern governor winning in 1976 beating a northerner, then again in 1992 and 1996 and all three times winning on the more liberal platform than their opponent? the times have a way of changing and nobody can accurately predict how things will go

the christian right is the boogey man the press likes to write about these days and their bark is much less than their bite

840quadra
Apr 24, 2005, 10:22 PM
zealots

??

Is that the Macrumors Buzzz word for 2005? It is in almost every current thread.


840
Runs and hides from zealots

leekohler
Apr 25, 2005, 10:11 AM
actually the moral majority is rarely moral and never was or is the majority

if the christian right, and i am talking about the ones who worship right wing politics, get too outspoken, they will only hurt their cause and the results will be seen by the next midterm election

there is no major chance of us turning into an iran quickly

but a hundred years from now, who knows where we will be?

who in 1932 thought that there would be a prominent southern governor winning in 1976 beating a northerner, then again in 1992 and 1996 and all three times winning on the more liberal platform than their opponent? the times have a way of changing and nobody can accurately predict how things will go

the christian right is the boogey man the press likes to write about these days and their bark is much less than their bite

I'd say their bite is pretty nasty at the moment. 18 states have banned gay marriage or any type of rights for gay couples at all with more states on the way. They have actually managed to legislate against people for being who they are. And who's behind it? The religious right. I'd say they're accomplishing their goals very easily right now. And you don't find this worrisome?.

jefhatfield
Apr 27, 2005, 07:02 PM
I'd say their bite is pretty nasty at the moment. 18 states have banned gay marriage or any type of rights for gay couples at all with more states on the way. They have actually managed to legislate against people for being who they are. And who's behind it? The religious right. I'd say they're accomplishing their goals very easily right now. And you don't find this worrisome?.

are the religious right the majority in america? no, what are they, something like 3 million people out of 270 million?

but is their power, whatever it is in washington, worrisome? yes, but i don't think they can continue to keep on legislating their minority point of view without a backlash from democrats and republicans alike

rainman::|:|
Apr 27, 2005, 09:14 PM
colojohnboy: maybe, send pic. :p

but is their power, whatever it is in washington, worrisome? yes, but i don't think they can continue to keep on legislating their minority point of view without a backlash from democrats and republicans alike

Ah, but you're assuming that 1% of a population couldn't force rule on the rest, which history has shown many times to be possible. Historically, when a group this small takes power, it's the rich rather than religious, but power is the only thing they need, and they already have plenty. When they convert their worldly power into political power, and there's enough apathy among the serfs, all sorts of weird **** can happen. They've gotten close before-- The whole opposition to McCarthyism can be summed up in the line, "Have you no sense of decency!" which is pretty weak compared to the actual religious-based xenophobic violence he was peddling. Fortunately that sick bastard died before he could organize an army. Today's hate preachers are grabbing up whole congregations rather than attracting people one-by-one, and they're figuring out how to use the electronic age to their advantage (last sunday's televised rally, for example). The unfortunate thing is, apparently to attack these people is to attack all Christians, so it has to be seriously tempered... People cheer at David Koresh's death, but if you say "Fred Phelps should be in prison", people balk-- Free speech, they say, religious freedom. We grant Christianity enormous unrestricted activity because we've grown up with it-- it could be the national religion! Why object when they try to make it the national religion? It's splitting hairs to object simply because it's a twisted subsect that has nothing to do with mainstream Christian values. That's why they're dangerous... that's why democrats can't stop them. Deep down, most democrats are preprogrammed to accept these things. That's why CNN didn't run with the apt opening that someone here wrote about the salt stain... instead talking about the "faithful and curious".

jefhatfield, this wasn't targeted to you, just a response to the whole thread :)

leekohler
Apr 30, 2005, 12:06 AM
colojohnboy: maybe, send pic. :p



Ah, but you're assuming that 1% of a population couldn't force rule on the rest, which history has shown many times to be possible. Historically, when a group this small takes power, it's the rich rather than religious, but power is the only thing they need, and they already have plenty. When they convert their worldly power into political power, and there's enough apathy among the serfs, all sorts of weird **** can happen. They've gotten close before-- The whole opposition to McCarthyism can be summed up in the line, "Have you no sense of decency!" which is pretty weak compared to the actual religious-based xenophobic violence he was peddling. Fortunately that sick bastard died before he could organize an army. Today's hate preachers are grabbing up whole congregations rather than attracting people one-by-one, and they're figuring out how to use the electronic age to their advantage (last sunday's televised rally, for example). The unfortunate thing is, apparently to attack these people is to attack all Christians, so it has to be seriously tempered... People cheer at David Koresh's death, but if you say "Fred Phelps should be in prison", people balk-- Free speech, they say, religious freedom. We grant Christianity enormous unrestricted activity because we've grown up with it-- it could be the national religion! Why object when they try to make it the national religion? It's splitting hairs to object simply because it's a twisted subsect that has nothing to do with mainstream Christian values. That's why they're dangerous... that's why democrats can't stop them. Deep down, most democrats are preprogrammed to accept these things. That's why CNN didn't run with the apt opening that someone here wrote about the salt stain... instead talking about the "faithful and curious".

jefhatfield, this wasn't targeted to you, just a response to the whole thread :)

I agree with you completely! Why are gays and other people the religious right doesn't like demonized? Because we challenge them. We refuse to follow their rules and have no qualms saying so. So we are automatically "against God". That's why we need more religious people on the left to speak out.

Chip NoVaMac
Apr 30, 2005, 01:09 AM
are the religious right the majority in america? no, what are they, something like 3 million people out of 270 million?

but is their power, whatever it is in washington, worrisome? yes, but i don't think they can continue to keep on legislating their minority point of view without a backlash from democrats and republicans alike

Jeff, the issue is one that other "religious" people can also find some comfort in. Even if they don't see eye-to-eye with the total agenda.

Add to that it is now a case of those with the money can control the political process. The Religious Right are being used as pawns by the RNC IMO, because the relatively small base can be mobilized in both physical and monetary ways. Look at some of the TV evangelists, and how their "faithful" would eat cat food in order to denounce Satan.

Just look at MS's lack of support on the recent domestic partner bill in Washington state. They have one of the most progressive Gay Rights policies in business at MS. They backed down because of a threat of a boycott by the radical Religious Right to boycott them, if they supported the Bill.

It is time that we as Americans demanded that lobbyists and such go away. No more dinners. No more trips around the country, or the world. No more multi-million dollar election campaigns. No single individual, non-profit, or company (no subsidiary would count as a separate company) would be able to contribute more than $100 to any candidate in the local jurisdiction and/or state that they reside in or have "business" interest in if I had my way.

Maybe then we would see people running for office that truly have the peoples interests at heart. I would further limit speaking fees to $50 an hour. Travel expenses would be limited to the lowest coach fares at the time of booking. The standard government per diem rate would apply for what ever city they were speaking in. This goes for those in and out of office. If they wish to receive higher speakers fees and reimbursement for travel, then they will no longer receive any government pensions or benefits.

We need to end the gravy train that allows individuals to enter in to political service for the good of the people, ending up as being good for their wallets.

Maybe if we eliminate the money, we don't need term limits.

jefhatfield
May 2, 2005, 11:30 AM
Add to that it is now a case of those with the money can control the political process. The Religious Right are being used as pawns by the RNC IMO, because the relatively small base can be mobilized in both physical and monetary ways. Look at some of the TV evangelists, and how their "faithful" would eat cat food in order to denounce Satan.


there is no doubt that the religious right, and even religious moderates w/o a political affiliation are being used by the republicans

but i wouldn't say that the tele-evangleists' faithful would eat cat food in order to denounce satan...but in the days before 1) jim bakker scandal 2) jimmy swaggert scandal 3) jerry falwell stepping down from the moral majority leadership due to untoward financial innuendos towards ptl network, christians were completely trusting of tele-evangelists and their pet projects/ventures

...but we live in a post-scandal era of television christianity and people have not forgotten how corrupt these religious television icons can be when power and money come into play

leekohler
May 2, 2005, 12:01 PM
there is no doubt that the religious right, and even religious moderates w/o a political affiliation are being used by the republicans

but i wouldn't say that the tele-evangleists' faithful would eat cat food in order to denounce satan...but in the days before 1) jim bakker scandal 2) jimmy swaggert scandal 3) jerry falwell stepping down from the moral majority leadership due to untoward financial innuendos towards ptl network, christians were completely trusting of tele-evangelists and their pet projects/ventures

...but we live in a post-scandal era of television christianity and people have not forgotten how corrupt these religious television icons can be when power and money come into play

I would agree with you except for the fact that people rarely learn from the past. I don't think they've forgotten completely yet, but I think they're about to.

Chip NoVaMac
May 2, 2005, 12:23 PM
there is no doubt that the religious right, and even religious moderates w/o a political affiliation are being used by the republicans

but i wouldn't say that the tele-evangleists' faithful would eat cat food in order to denounce satan...but in the days before 1) jim bakker scandal 2) jimmy swaggert scandal 3) jerry falwell stepping down from the moral majority leadership due to untoward financial innuendos towards ptl network, christians were completely trusting of tele-evangelists and their pet projects/ventures

...but we live in a post-scandal era of television christianity and people have not forgotten how corrupt these religious television icons can be when power and money come into play

Did not mean to paint with such a broad brush, but with the fall of the tele-evangelist as you mentioned, there were reports on more than a handful that fell the their spell. The cat food reference was "literary" reference to how people would put their basic needs above the need to help these evangelists.

The post scandal era that you spoke of has moved from the television to the internet and even local churches instead. There are more than a few churches in the DC area, with even a well-heeled crowd, that bight in to the apple that their preachers give them. That they need to donate to this candidate or cause in order to fight the evil doers that want to take religion away from them and the country.

Otherwise we would not have the RNC pandering to their vote, and by proxy, to their money. Not quite sure if the RNC is a whore, or more like the money changers in the temples. Either way, the religious people should be wary of any political party promising them anything.

For the good book(s) [depending on your religion] talk more about focusing on your good deeds and acts in order to gain acceptance within your God's eyes - than trying to protect everyone else. For the Christians this is evidenced by the following:


MATTHEW 7:1-5

“Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck in your neighbor’s eye, but do not see the log in your own eye? Or how can you say to your neighbor, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ while the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor’s eye.”



As a Christian believer, and one that feels drawn to serving God, I have come to believe that is my actions - rather then my words - that will be the best way to spread His Word.

Chip NoVaMac
May 2, 2005, 12:28 PM
I would agree with you except for the fact that people rarely learn from the past. I don't think they've forgotten completely yet, but I think they're about to.

So right you are. As evidenced by our governments actions. We have chosen to ignore some atrocities in the world, but focus dollars and American lives in other parts of the world.

Why? Despite our pompous Christian posturing, it is about what we can gain by either ignoring or engaging in conflict with those countries that we feel are a threat to our core religious values, or supposedly, sine we tend to invoke Gods name in fighting wars.

leekohler
May 2, 2005, 04:04 PM
So right you are. As evidenced by our governments actions. We have chosen to ignore some atrocities in the world, but focus dollars and American lives in other parts of the world.

Why? Despite our pompous Christian posturing, it is about what we can gain by either ignoring or engaging in conflict with those countries that we feel are a threat to our core religious values, or supposedly, sine we tend to invoke Gods name in fighting wars.

Well of course. And it got so much easier for them after 9/11.