iBook Updates Imminent? [Archive]

ebow

Apr 7, 2003, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by Centris 650
Well, first let me say that I've postponed my desktop purchase waiting for the 970's. However, my iBook SE w/FW has about had it. I don't need that much power for my portability needs so I'm thinking about putting my iBook on ebay and buying a 12" 800 iBook. The price drop should fit nicely into what I'm willing to pay. (Assuming the 800 is priced dropped to the current 700 range.)

Just be aware of the smaller details of what Think Secret is predicting: the new low-end model will be the same as the current 700 MHz model, but with an 800 MHz chip. It will (presumably) still have less video RAM, a smaller HD, and a CD-ROM drive instead of a combo drive. And I'd guess it would still have a solid white plastic enclosure, instead of the clear plastic with white paint on the inside (the solid white being inferior, I guess)...

superscientific

Apr 7, 2003, 01:52 AM

Well I guess timing is just bad on the 12" powerbook and the ibook. This does seem logical to just increase the speed and lower the price. Bluetooth does seem a little much , but Airport Extreme should def be in the Top of the line Model. 100$ drop and Airport Extreme Included and a speed bump sounds like enough for now until a major overhaul... we will see what happens. Video upgrade would be nice too though...

redAPPLE

Apr 7, 2003, 02:03 AM

my 0.02 $...

drop the prices for the ibook. if Apple wants to differentiate between consumer and prosumer notebooks, the "MHZ" should show.

Wait until the 12" PB reaches 1GHZ before bringing out a 900 Mhz iBook. Then update both.

That would be the logical thing to do. Business-wise.

maradong

Apr 7, 2003, 02:13 AM

i can t believe this. How can the Ibook power the poerbook out, and if it is only on the mhz count. That sounds quite strange to me...

nagromme

Apr 7, 2003, 02:37 AM

I don't see how a minor iBook change is a bad thing. It keeps the iBooks cometitive and it doesn't mean a bigger change won't come in three months. Would it be better to leave the iBook as is until then?

I'd expect to see a major iBook speed change shortly after the next major PowerBook change. I can't imagine that would happen right now--so why NOT a small boost and price drop in the mean time?

caveman_uk

Apr 7, 2003, 03:23 AM

An ibook speed bump is a cheap and easy thing to do for Apple. I still think the 900MHz machine will cannibalise powerbook sales as it's 900MHz vs. 867Mhz and quite a lot on the less informed buyers don't know the difference between a G3 and G4. I bought a 800Mhz ibook just before the 12" PB came out and I was a bit annoyed not to have waited and got a PB instead. I've got a Powermac now and that does everything the ibook doesn't and a lot faster. So now I'm happy with the ibook. Does what I want when I'm away from the desktop.

P.S. Yeah I know 970's are coming but I wanted a desktop mac and the dual 1GHz was on special offer...:rolleyes:

T'hain Esh Kelch

Apr 7, 2003, 03:49 AM

Originally posted by dabirdwell
What does this mean?
That Apple wont waste time on these iBooks, because next time we get 970 iBooks with all the features, and therefore they seem a LOT better... :)

The Shadow

Apr 7, 2003, 04:41 AM

Originally posted by redAPPLE
my 0.02 $...

drop the prices for the ibook. if Apple wants to differentiate between consumer and prosumer notebooks, the "MHZ" should show.

Wait until the 12" PB reaches 1GHZ before bringing out a 900 Mhz iBook. Then update both.

That would be the logical thing to do. Business-wise.

I agree with these comments, and others like them, to a point but I still think Apple should keep ramping up the iBook every chance it gets.

Yes this might result in some cannibalization of PB 12 sales because of MHz myth type ignorance, but what about the other competitors, ie PC notebooks? So, the more MHz the better I think.

Anyway, you'd hope people with a big budget who walk in after a PB, are more likely to be educated and less likely to end up going for a iBook.

Bottom line, I reckon, is if Apple were to be worried about cannibalization, easily solved: put slower G4s in iBooks. As it stands, don't penalise iBook buyers with slower than necessary G3s.

My HO's.

d46799

Apr 7, 2003, 04:44 AM

Can't believe they're still making G3 laptops. C'mon, get with the program, Apple.

gotohamish

Apr 7, 2003, 05:16 AM

Originally posted by d46799
Can't believe they're still making G3 laptops. C'mon, get with the program, Apple.

I admit the G3 is/was a great chip, but the cost of a 900Mhtz G3 can't be (much) cheaper than a 700Mhtz G4 now can it?

The iBooks should be G4 now, and they should be slightly less speed than the PowerBooks, as the other features (DDR, AE, BT, Display Spanning, etc) justify the price jump (which isn't that much to a 12" PB anyway).

Bring the price down, stick a low power G4 in, and they'll FLY off the shelves. Plus when the big boys get the next generation chip, then the step isn't as drastic.

Interestingly though, the 1Ghtz 15" Powerbook still outperforms the 17" 1Ghtz with DDR, so CNET says anyway... but I don't believe everything I read!

pianojoe

Apr 7, 2003, 05:23 AM

Originally posted by caveman_uk
An ibook speed bump is a cheap and easy thing to do for Apple.

AFAIK the current MB design allows for G3 speeds up to 800 MHz. So, if we get a new MB, it might (!) well sport some of the new fancy features (onboard Bluetook, AE, etc.). I'm sure they'll come up with a MB that can easily be equipped with a G3, or a G4, because I can't believe Apple would stick to the G3 until the next-next major MB redesign of the iBook.

AllenPSU

Apr 7, 2003, 05:45 AM

I think the speed boost can really pay off for Apple if they can get a CD-RW in the $999 model.

gotohamish

Apr 7, 2003, 05:54 AM

Originally posted by AllenPSU
I think the speed boost can really pay off for Apple if they can get a CD-RW in the $999 model.

Or even a combo, then I'd be really tempted... I'd use it for roughin' in on my travels, as my 15.2" Powerbook seems so huge compared to those little 12" models.

Aciddan

Apr 7, 2003, 06:18 AM

Originally posted by ebow
I could see them adding Airport Extreme, but not BlueTooth; the latter definitely feels like more of a luxury feature to me.

It's only a Luxury to those that don't use it daily... ;)

Seriously, Built-in BT would be very useful and since getting the adapter I haven't looked back - carrying my iCal and Address Book with me eveywhere I go (without having to move to something more sophisticated like a PDA) on the T68i has helped my lousy organsation skills immensely (ok, a treeware organiser would be cheaper, but its syncing requires more effort)...

Not to mention the fact that I can use my T68i as a super-cool remote for presentations (no more standing in fron of the 'book at conferences)...

-- Dan, who uses the Bluetooth adapter with his 14" iBook :D

CrackedButter

Apr 7, 2003, 06:34 AM

Makes my recent purchase of a 12" iBook all the better, i'll get a higher price for it now because it doesn't seem so far behind the newer models.

yzedf

Apr 7, 2003, 07:23 AM

Originally posted by gotohamish
I admit the G3 is/was a great chip, but the cost of a 900Mhtz G3 can't be (much) cheaper than a 700Mhtz G4 now can it?

The iBooks should be G4 now, and they should be slightly less speed than the PowerBooks, as the other features (DDR, AE, BT, Display Spanning, etc) justify the price jump (which isn't that much to a 12" PB anyway).

Bring the price down, stick a low power G4 in, and they'll FLY off the shelves. Plus when the big boys get the next generation chip, then the step isn't as drastic.

Interestingly though, the 1Ghtz 15" Powerbook still outperforms the 17" 1Ghtz with DDR, so CNET says anyway... but I don't believe everything I read!
G4 sucks to much power. G3 is a great mobile processor.

Although I do agree with those that say the 900 would cannibalize the sales of the L3 cache-less 867 G4 PB 12"

I do like the idea of a price drop ;)

jayscheuerle

Apr 7, 2003, 08:25 AM

No more booting to OS9, I bet...

And yes, that does matter to some people... - j

gotohamish

Apr 7, 2003, 08:36 AM

At time of writing there are 14 Positives on this story, and 16 NEGATIVES!

Who the hell thinks any update would be negative?

CrackedButter

Apr 7, 2003, 08:42 AM

You cannot boot to OS9 in iBooks already.

Classic mode only.

zac4mac

Apr 7, 2003, 08:58 AM

For the iBook's target market, the G3 works fine. You don't get much out of AltiVec with consumer apps. My 800Combo holds its own with my DP G4550 in most situations. Besides, IBM makes G3s, only Moto makes G4s and they are GOING AWAY.
Apple's lineup will keep G3s in the iBook for a while with 970s in everything else - soon.
Still trying to figure wht the iMac is gonna have, 970 seems too much, but they can't go back to a G3, no matter how fast IBM makes 'em. Guess Moto's gonna be with us for another year or two...

ryan

Apr 7, 2003, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by CrackedButter
You cannot boot to OS9 in iBooks already.

Classic mode only.
This is simply NOT true.

reyesmac

Apr 7, 2003, 09:26 AM

If a speedbump is all Apple can manage in the "Year of the Laptop" then that title was just a smokescreen to take our eyes away from the desktop machines or something. If they really meant what they said then they have to have something better than a lousy speedbump.

Datazoid

Apr 7, 2003, 09:30 AM

My problem with the idea that AE and Bluetooth will be coming to iBooks in the next revision is how Apple treated the iMac/eMac "upgrades". Currently, the ONLY models sporting these features cost $1799 and up (excepting the $1499 PM, but when you add the cost of a display....). The iBook goes up against the eMac/15" iMac dollar for dollar; I doubt they would include these features in the iBook without upgrading the others. To me, it looks like they consider BOTH to be "luxury" options.

I'm guessing that TS is pretty much spot-on with their prediction, as usual.

bokdol

Apr 7, 2003, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by gotohamish
At time of writing there are 14 Positives on this story, and 16 NEGATIVES!

Who the hell thinks any update would be negative?

alot of people think its negitive because of the constant lowballing by apple. they want to chagre us more for undrepowered machines. while i love apple its getting a bit tiresome. people say apple is like the bmws of. but even bmw does not sell 5 year old cars for the price of new. while i do own a mac. and probably well continue to buy macs. i do feel a bit ripped after what apple has to offer compared to the rest of the computer world. at this moment apple is not the hardware tech leader. their system is amazing, but you can go only so far with software alone. i have heard the rumors of 970s. i know what may come in the future but the future is not now. and now apple is behind. the have a 1 ghz g3. the 12 inch pbook should have been a 1ghz g4. things should be different now. but alas they are still behind. that is why people are complaing about upgrades (that are not even here yet) thats are not a major up grade.

Freg3000

Apr 7, 2003, 09:37 AM

Originally posted by maradong
i can t believe this. How can the Ibook power the poerbook out, and if it is only on the mhz count. That sounds quite strange to me...
Why do many people keep saying that Apple wouldn't release a 900 Mhz iBook while still having a 867 Mhz PowerBook? There was a time last year when the low end PowerBook was 667 Mhz, and the top end iBook at 700 Mhz. The same 33 Mhz difference as we are facing now.

Apple wouldn't do it? They already have done it. Stop spreading misinformation.

CrackedButter

Apr 7, 2003, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by ryan
This is simply NOT true.

Not true? But here i am having just bought an iBook with NO OS9 other than in Classic mode.

ebow

Apr 7, 2003, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by CrackedButter
Not true? But here i am having just bought an iBook with NO OS9 other than in Classic mode.

But I believe (educated guessing here) in your case, the iBook simply came with OS 9 pre-configured as Classic. Also, Apple stopped shipping OS 9 discs a while before their machines went OS X-only. Have you tried choosing your OS 9 system from the Startup Disk System Preference Pane?

Hattig

Apr 7, 2003, 10:09 AM

The 0.13um G3 used in the iBook (IBM 750FX) is an extremely good mobile processor and it is reasonably cheap. At most it will use a few watts, compared to 16W+ for that Pentium-M contraption, and 10W+ for the G4. By saving these watts, Apple can put a cheaper battery in, which saves even more money.

The iBook has good graphics to boot - the Radeon 7500 is a nice solution for the price-point, and with Jaguar that will co-operate nicely, making the lack of Altivec much less of an issue.

DakotaGuy

Apr 7, 2003, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by d46799
Can't believe they're still making G3 laptops. C'mon, get with the program, Apple.

Whoa, easy on the G3, it's not as crappy as you think. In fact, the current G3 (750fx) Sahara is an excellent processor built by IBM. All it lacks over the G4 is Alti-Vec, but it actually holds a lot more technology.

.13um (G3)
.18um (G4)

4 pipeline stages (G3)
7 pipeline stages (G4)

512K on-chip L2 cache (G3)
256K on-chip L2 cache (G4)

I am not sure about power use and battery life, but I am sure the G3 can beat the G4 for being a power mizer, then there are heat issues and which one runs cooler and last who is a better supplier to stick with, IBM or Moto?

I don't think the Sahara deserves to be slammed the way everyone does. Look at benchmarks and you will see the iBook 800 holding it's own and even taking out the 12" Powerbook in some tasks. The only places where it falls behind is where Alti-Vec is a big factor. I would love to see benchmarks of an 867 G4 and a 900 G3, I think it would surprise some people. With Quartz Extreme there is less help on GUI speed with Alti-Vec now as well, so new iBooks feel very responsive. The only reason we would need a G4 in the iBook is if Apple wanted to put a Superdrive in it, but if Apple was going to make a G4 iBook with a SuperDrive....what in the hell is the point of the 12" Powerbook? A fancy looking case for a few hundred more? People who want a G4 iBook just need to go out and buy a 12" Powerbook, that IS your G4 iBook.

mdntcallr

Apr 7, 2003, 10:30 AM

My bet is that the iBook as we currently know it, even with the new model, will be a short lived unit.

If the rumors are true about the 970 ppc Powerbooks coming out soon, then apple will be hardpressed to update the rest of its mobile computers.

I believe that this will bring the 12" powerbook to become a ibook. sure they may restyle it and cut a few items to control costs. But its undeniable that the g4 will become the new low end processor for apple.

This would bring alot more power to the starting level of apple laptops.

Of course this is just conjecture, but I think it makes sense. What do you think?

Gus

Apr 7, 2003, 10:34 AM

The current iBooks DO boot into OS 9. Period. I know, because I am typing this on my iBook 800 in OS 9 RIGHT NOW (had to do a little Finale work. Grrr, dang Coda...)

The OS 9 disks do not ship separately with the iBook anymore, but the restore disks are there.

Regards,
Gus

deputy_doofy

Apr 7, 2003, 10:46 AM

Dare I say this, but why doesn't Apple or IBM pull an Intel? They should intentionally cripple the 970's for the iBooks (shut off the Altivec units).
This way, in a year or 2, the iBooks could have 1, 1.2, and 1.4 Ghz machines, while the PowerBooks have 1.8, 2, 2.4 Ghz (WITH Altivec, and possibly duals, if they can manage to pull that off).

Enkerli

Apr 7, 2003, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by reyesmac
If a speedbump is all Apple can manage in the "Year of the Laptop" then that title was just a smokescreen to take our eyes away from the desktop machines or something. If they really meant what they said then they have to have something better than a lousy speedbump.
Absolutely. It makes the rumor itself hard to believe. After all, we're already close to a third into this "year of the laptop" and all we got so far, AFAIK, are the 12" and 17" AlBook. There might be production problems, but it's clearly far from what one would expect.
Anyone else interpreted the "year of the laptop" statement to mean "focus on mobile features instead of speed?" Wouldn't BT and AE fulfill this idea better than a speedbump? Especially since wireless features are becoming an important part of the experience for mobile users.
As for cannibalism, the AlBook 12" may have been stripped down too much (no card expansion) but it still has enough added features to make it difficult to choose between it and a high-end iBook with BT and AE.

weev

Apr 7, 2003, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by punter
A speed bump and a price drop would be great. The rest of the ibooks features are good enough for the ibooks target users. If you want more features, you want a power book (in my opinion).

My only concern is if I bought a g3 machine, I might soon find myself two generations off the pace.

This is a concern for consumers who feel there is pace to be maintained. But yeah, it'll be kinda hard to sell when the 970 is out.

We would then have a G5, G4 and G3 - good grief, that won't happen, thus one might summise that if there is one more product cycle (they dare not have more...) left for the G3 - this hints strongly at the ETA of the 970.

How many days ...?

macrumors12345

Apr 7, 2003, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by T'hain Esh Kelch
That Apple wont waste time on these iBooks, because next time we get 970 iBooks with all the features, and therefore they seem a LOT better... :)

Um...yeah...PPC 970 iBooks...that'll happen soon. Because clearly Apple always puts their greatest processor in the iBook (that's why it is using the G3, which debutted in 1997) and clearly the 130 nm 970 is so well suited for mobile applications. I guess your reality check just keeps bouncing, huh?

I am perfectly happy if they stay w/the 750FX (and its successor) in the iBook, but I just wish they would hurry up and get the 7457 into the Powerbooks so that the 750FX can stretch its legs. I'm sure IBM could easily produce a G3 running over 1 Ghz today if only they weren't constrained to come in lower than what Motorola is currently offering.

macrumors12345

Apr 7, 2003, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by reyesmac
If a speedbump is all Apple can manage in the "Year of the Laptop" then that title was just a smokescreen to take our eyes away from the desktop machines or something.

It's not clear that what Steve says in his speeches has much predictive value in terms of future products. I distinctly remember him saying that the PowerPC architecture was entering a "sweet spot" in its life when they released the first G4 machines back in late summer of 1999. The PowerPC promptly then proceeded to stagnate at 500 mhz for the next 18 months!

cubist

Apr 7, 2003, 11:21 AM

Maybe around Nov/Dec the iBooks will get 7457's; then they would only be "one generation behind". Power consumption will be low enough for them to keep cool. But I think it's more likely they'll go to 1.2GHz Sahara, then Gobi chips.

The iMac, however, has to go 970 with the PM. Consumers, especially gamers, need a fast computer. If you want a cheaper box, get the eMac.

QCassidy352

Apr 7, 2003, 11:27 AM

"Yes this might result in some cannibalization of PB 12 sales because of MHz myth type ignorance, but what about the other competitors, ie PC notebooks? So, the more MHz the better I think."

I'm with you on this one. Stop worrying about apple canabalizing its own sales... the 12" PB is not the competition here; PC notebooks are. Yes it's nice to sell the more expensive PB, but anything that will get people in to a mac is good. When they won't even consider a mac because the Mhz is half that of a PC, that's when apple has to worry.

Also, I think the G3 is a nice little chip for laptops. No reason to bash it... I've heard (can't recall where, sry about that) IBM say that they could *easily* rev the G3 up to about 2 Ghz. A 2 Ghz ibook... that sound as nice to anyone else as it does to me? The only reason the ibook's processor is so darn slow is because motorola dropped the ball on the G4, and apple doesn't want its "consumer" portable to have twice the clockspeed of its "pro" portable. But, if we could get some 1.8-2.4 Ghz PPC 970s, then we might see a 1.4 Ghz G3 ibook or something. Sweet!

Mr T

Apr 7, 2003, 11:40 AM

Apple has created it's own problem and should get bitten in the ass repeatedly until they learn a lesson. the AlBook 12" was stripped down way too much for the prosumer model - no card expansion, limited video out and a 867 G4 that L3 cache-less (what were they thinking) . No wonder consumers are thinking long and hard about what machine to buy. The fact that they have to cannibalize the iBook (the Sahara chip has been available at over 1.2 Ghz for over a year) just plain sucks. The G3 is a great mobile chip but consumers need the most powerful in order to use OS 10. Not giving us the fastest chip possible in the G3 line points to Apples arrogance and stupidity. Apple really does not give a crap about their customers only their bottom line. Don't buy anything from Apple until the model you want has a 970 -screw them like they are screwing you

pgwalsh

Apr 7, 2003, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by Mr T
Apple has created it's own problem and should get bitten in the ass repeatedly until they learn a lesson. the AlBook 12" was stripped down way too much for the prosumer model - no card expansion, limited video out and a 867 G4 that L3 cache-less (what were they thinking) . No wonder consumers are thinking long and hard about what machine to buy. The fact that they have to cannibalize the iBook (the Sahara chip has been available at over 1.2 Ghz for over a year) just plain sucks. The G3 is a great mobile chip but consumers need the most powerful in order to use OS 10. Not giving us the fastest chip possible in the G3 line points to Apples arrogance and stupidity. Apple really does not give a crap about their customers only their bottom line. Don't buy anything from Apple until the model you want has a 970 -screw them like they are screwing you

A little animosity?

I too think Apple needs to put as much power as they can in the laptops. I also think the iBooks should all be under $1K for the processors they have in them and the market they're targeting. The 12 pb should be beefier with card expansion etc... But, that's about all I go to say about that.. - Forrest Gump

mstecker

Apr 7, 2003, 12:11 PM

TMJ1974

Apr 7, 2003, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by deputy_doofy
Dare I say this, but why doesn't Apple or IBM pull an Intel? They should intentionally cripple the 970's for the iBooks (shut off the Altivec units).
This way, in a year or 2, the iBooks could have 1, 1.2, and 1.4 Ghz machines, while the PowerBooks have 1.8, 2, 2.4 Ghz (WITH Altivec, and possibly duals, if they can manage to pull that off).

Actually, if I've read correctly the IBM Sahara G3 (currently in the iBooks) already reaches speeds up to 2Ghz. It's Apple's choice not to use the higher end chips, all to make the PowerBook "look" better. Also, the Sahara can support a 200Mhz bus speed. Apple keeps it at 100Mhz, again for the sake of the PowerBook. It already has double the L2 cache, I'm surprised they haven't fooled with that.

The iBook can hold it's own in anything non-AltiVec according to test at some sites. If it weren't being held back, it would walk all over the PowerBook in alot of tasks. But that wouldn't "look" good would it ?

Tim

Raiwong

Apr 7, 2003, 12:48 PM

that sounds ridiculous typing from a 800mhz ibook I can't believe that 2ghz chips are designed already. my ibook has good speed but 2ghz is a quantumm jump in improvement.

plus arn't we forgeting that the centrino chips are in so is the G3 power advantage important anymore?

an 100mhz bump is ok, I don't see how AE is usefull as most typical source bands don't reach 10mpbs anyways and bluetooth only works with those richass who can afford all sorts of gadgets, who would be able to afford PB anyway and average student won't have palm handhelds and t68i in the back of their pockets.

I can't think of any other improvement they could put in, superdrive is out of option unless they put it in which is unlikely and idvd cannot run with a G3. the graphic controller on the current ibook is actually quite decent for laptop.

its like because 12 inch pb is here, whatever they up they will damage the product margin. I mean RAM, I/O I can't think of any other improvements they can put without hitting their own 12pb.

If there was two features I'd take it be a backlight keyboard, better speakers. I'd really want a superdrive though.

JGowan

Apr 7, 2003, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by reyesmac
If a speedbump is all Apple can manage in the "Year of the Laptop" then that title was just a smokescreen to take our eyes away from the desktop machines or something. If they really meant what they said then they have to have something better than a lousy speedbump. Steve Jobs dubbed 2003 the "Year of the Laptop" for sales reasons.

He spoke of how two years ago, Apple's sales were roughly the same percentage of PC laptops when compared to the sales of towers (or other desktop models.) Then last year, a trend started where Apple was selling a greatrer percentage of laptops, than the industry and he saw the potential for this year for laptop sales to be even better, espcially with the introduction of the 12" & the 17" PowerBooks. He noted that the desktop computers were still out-selling the laptop, but that the laptop was gaining in popularity.

I don't know what you mean by "smokescreen",... people are simply buying what they want/need. Jobs is simply pointing out that because the laptops are becoming powerful enough & with enough screen real estate (for the average and the pro-user) AND a whole lot sexier: they're simply selling more of them than they used to.

There is no smokescreen. If people buy the 17" over a tower, it's because it finally became too good to pass up.

RLB

Apr 7, 2003, 12:57 PM

There is still same day shipping on the low end ibooks. Is the upgrade really imminent? I feel like there are no ipods to be found in stores and they are now shipping in 3-5 days (let alone there is no ipods for 299 $ or refurbished ones to be found), why upgrade the ibooks first?

redAPPLE

Apr 7, 2003, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by Mr T
Apple has created it's own problem and should get bitten in the ass repeatedly until they learn a lesson. the AlBook 12" was stripped down way too much for the prosumer model - no card expansion, limited video out and a 867 G4 that L3 cache-less (what were they thinking) . No wonder consumers are thinking long and hard about what machine to buy. The fact that they have to cannibalize the iBook (the Sahara chip has been available at over 1.2 Ghz for over a year) just plain sucks. The G3 is a great mobile chip but consumers need the most powerful in order to use OS 10. Not giving us the fastest chip possible in the G3 line points to Apples arrogance and stupidity. Apple really does not give a crap about their customers only their bottom line. Don't buy anything from Apple until the model you want has a 970 -screw them like they are screwing you

ha ha. i think i will do that... :p

just hope i won't wait that long till it ships ;)

yzedf

Apr 7, 2003, 01:13 PM

As to the supposed power consumption of the 970, and other "facts" bandied about in this forum:

http://www.macbuyersguide.com/editorials/editorial-ppc970.htm

Snowy_River

Apr 7, 2003, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by macrumors12345
Um...yeah...PPC 970 iBooks...that'll happen soon. Because clearly Apple always puts their greatest processor in the iBook (that's why it is using the G3, which debutted in 1997) and clearly the 130 nm 970 is so well suited for mobile applications. I guess your reality check just keeps bouncing, huh?

While I doubt we'll see the 970 jump into the iBook any time soon, everything that we have heard indicates that the 130nm 970 is well suited for mobile applications. Much better suited than the G4, in fact, even in its current mobile incarnation. So, I do think that we'll see 970 based PowerBooks reasonably soon, probably at about the same time as the 970 based PMs are released.

Sooner is better!! :D

jettredmont

Apr 7, 2003, 01:24 PM

Either Apple is really stupid (which I doubt), or these repeated assertions that Apple is keeping their consumer lines castrated so they don't "cannibalize" higher-end sales are wrong.

I really hope the latter.

If the 12" G4 PowerBook isn't appealing to buyers, then (1) it shouldn't have been introduced, (2) production should be slowed down on it, or (3) if lower-quantity production is not cost-effective, it should be dropped. I mean, this is first-year economics, hardly something that should be tripping up a $4B company!

If salespeople are having a hard time reaching quotas on the 12" PB but are surpassing quotas on the iBook line, then your quotas need to be adjusted! As the same company is handling both production and retail, there should be very little friction there!

Now, product line differentiation is good, but not when you are selling yourself short to achieve it. The "Power" line should showcase the higher-end power-user features, and the "i" line the consumer-oriented features. FW800 is a pro-level feature. Expandability (PC card slot) is a pro-level feature. Altivec, perhaps, might be considered a pro-level feature (given the heat cost, that's probably right in the notebook lineup). A specific speed of processor? Not pro-level at all, unless the faster processor is appreciably more expensive.

On the other hand, there is a natural supply-side reason for Apple's practices, and it has nothing to do with blind and rabid product differentiation: quantity of available stock determines how "low" on the line a particular item can go, and product development resources determine how quickly any particular technology can filter through product lines. Take the first item: if you only have 1000 1.43GHz G4s coming out each month, you shouldn't be putting them into a 5000 unit-per-month product line (you could, of course, but would have to increase the cost of that product until it was a 1000 unit-per-month line, which wreaks havoc on the economics of the other parts going into that product ...) Then for development time: for each product line, there are unique features that mean that Apple has to dedicate development resources to fitting any new CPU and/or chipset into each product line. Apple doesn't have the resources (not many companies do in fact) to turn all of its product lines over in a month or two. Because of the first principle above and the fact that new parts are generally in shorter supply than more established parts, it makes sense that the first team given these redevelopment resources is the highest-end/lowest-quantity team, and that resource allocation then trickles down through the ranks until all product lines are able to use the line.

The third principle that keeps the product lines differentiated is that of multiple sources. Apple is a lot safer getting CPUs from two companies than from one. If IBM is only (so far) supplying G3's and motorola has no interest in providing anything better or worse than a G4, then Apple is in a much better position if it is buying both G3's and G4's than if it were to move all to G4's. This is, of course, also why I suspect we won't see Apple completely dump the G3/G4 lines when the 970 debuts.

The point I am trying to make is that there are "natural" reasons for product-line differentiation, and unless you are quite incompetent in managing your product lines, this differentiation should both arise quite naturally and be incredibly hard to avoid. There is NO need to artificially "hold back" one line because it might look too much like another line. If your lines are looking too much alike, the root cause is that you have too many lines! IIRC, this was approximately jab's assessment when he cme back to Apple as well: too many lines to keep a coherent message about each.

So, this is either a myth coming from the sales lines or it is a sign of pathetically poor product management.

jettredmont

Apr 7, 2003, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by caveman_uk
I still think the 900MHz machine will cannibalise powerbook sales as it's 900MHz vs. 867Mhz and quite a lot on the less informed buyers don't know the difference between a G3 and G4.

1) That's why Apple has its own stores, to educate their buyers.

2) The "i" line is specifically targetted at those who don't care about the details of what's in their machines. If you can't understand the difference between a G3 and a G4 (or, can't use the difference), then an iBook is really targetted at you!

If a 900MHz iBook cannibalizes 12"PB sales, then the 12"PB production should be scaled back or stopped, and shouldn't have been started in the first place.

QCassidy352

Apr 7, 2003, 01:30 PM

" Actually, if I've read correctly the IBM Sahara G3 (currently in the iBooks) already reaches speeds up to 2Ghz. It's Apple's choice not to use the higher end chips, all to make the PowerBook 'look' better. Also, the Sahara can support a 200Mhz bus speed. Apple keeps it at 100Mhz, again for the sake of the PowerBook. It already has double the L2 cache, I'm surprised they haven't fooled with that."

Exactly... this is what I was trying to say above. :) IBM is much more on the ball with chip development than motorola. The ibooks would indeed "walk all over" the powerbooks if Apple would just make use of what IBM could easily do with the G3. Unfortunately, Apple is more concerned with distinguishing between its own lines of computers than with competing with wintel laptops. The real problem here is that the "consumer" laptops use a processor made by a much smarter company than the company that makes the chips for the "pro" laptops. IBM could dazzle us with the G3 anytime Apple wanted, but stupid Motorola has dropped the ball, and stupid Apple has to keep their precious pro/ consumer distinctions even though it means intentionally crippling what could be a very fast ibook.

I for one hope that the ibook *never* gets a G4. When the PB goes 970, then push the G3 as high as it can go, and I think we'll all be pleasently surprised. In a couple of years when the 970 is old news, replace the G3 with that, and skip the G4 altogether.

TMJ1974

Apr 7, 2003, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Raiwong
that sounds ridiculous typing from a 800mhz ibook I can't believe that 2ghz chips are designed already. my ibook has good speed but 2ghz is a quantumm jump in improvement.

I appologize, I was incorrect, the Sahara can reach speeds of 1Ghz, somewhere I read 2Ghz, but the link below is from IBM. They would know best. The rest of my data was correct though.

Take a look

http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/products/powerpc/newsletter/oct2001/new-prod1.html

Why doesn't Apple use 1Ghz and the rest of those features....that would be a nice iBook :-)

Tim

MacsRgr8

Apr 7, 2003, 01:55 PM

Assuming the Sahara G3 can reach speeds up to 2 GHz, supporting a 200 Mhz bus.
Why not have a 2 GHz Sahara G3, 200 MHz bus PowerBook? A real pro user will know if he needs a 1 Ghz G4 or 2 Ghz G3. (also in towers?).

EDIT:
Right... I posted this right after the post above, but before reading it.
Forget it. :D

Raiwong

Apr 7, 2003, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by MacsRgr8
Assuming the Sahara G3 can reach speeds up to 2 GHz, supporting a 200 Mhz bus.
Why not have a 2 GHz Sahara G3, 200 MHz bus PowerBook? A real pro user will know if he needs a 1 Ghz G4 or 2 Ghz G3. (also in towers?).

EDIT:
Right... I posted this right after the post above, but before reading it.
Forget it. :D

maybe all the pro programs altivec programming are designed to run on a G4, biggest one in idvd and plus apple did all that advertising about how the G4 is way more better , but now they are going back to a G3? lol I think it will just make everyone confused..

but then I would really like to see what kind on monster ibook apple can make :P

Abstract

Apr 7, 2003, 02:06 PM

Sorry I don't have time to read ALL the posts in this thread, but I think that anybody who goes to an Apple store and asks why bother with a 12" PB when the 12" iBook is faster will get a good explanation. If the potential customer buys it off the internet and never visits an Apple store, or simply lives in a country, say Canada, that doesn't have an Apple Store (yet) may miss out on the difference between a G3 and a G4. The difference may be on the Apple.com page, but its not THAT clear, and the significance isn't detailed until you start posting in forums like this, or talk to a Mac user. So yes, Apple may be screwing over sales of the 12" PB, but only for people who don't even bother to visit an Apple dealer or Apple store, which isn't too many in the grand scheme of things, since Mac users will know the difference, and any switcher has probably done his homework before making a drastic move from a Windows environment to a Mac.

And about all these iBook rumours: lets face it, anybody can predict what the next iBook update will be if they just used their heads. There are only 3 real possibilities for the next iBook update. One is the speed bump. The next is the speed bump + APExpress, and maybe built-in bluetooth, but this probably won't happen in order to differentiate the PB and iBook a bit more due to their apparent convergence. The other is all 3 items thrown together. There really aren't too many choices. Also, if a website were to say that an Apple update is coming soon, maybe in the next month, they will probably be right since they ARE due for an update anyway.

All these rumour sites probably don't really have "sources" at all, since all of the iBook rumours thus far haven't been proven or misproven --- simply requoted, or so it seems. It just seems a bit naff to even discuss the posibilities, since there aren't too many of these.

macrumors12345

Apr 7, 2003, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by Snowy_River
While I doubt we'll see the 970 jump into the iBook any time soon, everything that we have heard indicates that the 130nm 970 is well suited for mobile applications. Much better suited than the G4, in fact, even in its current mobile incarnation.

Yes, it may be as well suited as the current 180 nm 7455. But to be fair you should compare the 130 nm 7457 (slated to ship in Q4...maybe around the same time as the 970, maybe a little later) to the 130 nm 970. Then the comparison is not as favorable. From the figures I have heard, the 1 Ghz 970 dissipates 19 watts, but the 1 Ghz 7457 dissipates less than 10 watts. Of course, the 970 is up to twice as powerful at equal clock speeds, but it also consumes twice as much power at equal clock speeds. Is the tradeoff worth it? Maybe, but Intel's focus on power consumption over pure speed w/the Centrino suggests that this is not the direction in which the market is heading. I for one would not object to Apple sticking with the 130 nm 7457 for the Powerbook if it means that they can ship light, efficient, and fast (but not workstation-class) laptops. My main beef with the 7457 is the limit of a 200 mhz bus speed...if it had a faster FSB then it could really give Centrino and the mobile Athlon a run for their money, but as it is it is still slightly (and unnecessarily) handicapped.

Incidentally, those who subscribe to the Megahertz Myth should PREFER that Apple stick with the G4 in the Powerbook. After all, a 1.5 Ghz 7457 may well dissipate less power than a 1 Ghz 970, but it will have a 50% higher clock speed, so it MUST be better! Of course, it won't actually be as fast, but that is a separate story....

So, I do think that we'll see 970 based PowerBooks reasonably soon, probably at about the same time as the 970 based PMs are released.

Conceivably, but don't hold your breath. Remember, it took almost 18 months for the G4 (MPC 7400/7410) to find its way into the Powerbook, and the power dissipation for that chip was lower than the power dissipation is for the 970.

Given that Intel is really pushing Centrino over P4-M, I think it would make good business sense for Apple to concentrate on getting faster G4s into the PB. They can definitely be competitive w/Centrino, especially if they get a faster bus (which admittedly probably won't happen). Switch to PPC 970 when a 90 nm version of the chip is produced, perhaps in 2004. That would probably make more sense. And of course stick with the G3 for the iBook in the mean time, but let it off its choke chain!

yzedf

Apr 7, 2003, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by TMJ1974
I appologize, I was incorrect, the Sahara can reach speeds of 1Ghz, somewhere I read 2Ghz, but the link below is from IBM. They would know best. The rest of my data was correct though.

Take a look

http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/products/powerpc/newsletter/oct2001/new-prod1.html

Why doesn't Apple use 1Ghz and the rest of those features....that would be a nice iBook :-)

Tim

http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/products/powerpc/processors/6xx7xxchips.html

Abstract

Apr 7, 2003, 02:22 PM

Is the 7457 even comparable to a 970, since Motorola never really intended to make chips for PC's anymore? Its just that I don't think the 7457 was ever meant to be used in a computer like a Mac, so its stats may be a bit deceiving since it's not a PC component. Or am I just way off mark. :confused:

macrumors12345

Apr 7, 2003, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by Abstract
Is the 7457 even comparable to a 970, since Motorola never really intended to make chips for PC's anymore? Its just that I don't think the 7457 was ever meant to be used in a computer like a Mac, so its stats may be a bit deceiving since it's not a PC component. Or am I just way off mark. :confused:

Well, I don't think it's any more or less "meant" to be usied in a computer than the current 7455. It is fundamentally designed to be an embedded chip, not a PC chip. But in this case that is not necessarily a bad thing, because embedded chips are designed to be highly efficient (i.e. getting good performance at very low power drain), which is kind of what you want in a laptop chip! My main problem with it is the (relatively) low bus speed (maximum 200 mhz effective), but that is not necessarily a function of it being an embedded chip. After all, the MPC 8540 is entirely intended for the embedded space, and it has a 333 mhz (effective) DDR controller. Plus, unlike the G4, it's already fabbed on the 130 nm process! At the end of the day, the problem is not that the G4 is fundamentally a terrible chip, or that it's targetted at the embedded space, but that Motorola just isn't putting in that much effort (which, in the long run, is obviously a reason for Apple to migrate away from using its products...maybe someday Apple will just be using PPC chips produced by IBM).

CmdrLaForge

Apr 7, 2003, 02:57 PM

Hi,

I checked some re-seller sites and they say that the iBook (current model) is not shipped before 04/24.

For quite some time the iBook was shipped immediatly - so I think there should be a new revision soon

Thanatoast

Apr 7, 2003, 03:03 PM

I agree with QCassidy352 that Apple should skip the G4 altogether in the ibooks. Drop the 970s in the power lines. Keep the G4s in the imacs and push them as far as they'll go. And ramp up the G3s as far as they'll go in the ibooks.

Fix the ibooks first. Someone above said that Apple's laptop comptetitors aren't apple users, they're PC users, and I agree. If a multiple gigahertz ibook will pull people into the store, then do it. If they don't buy an albook, so what? They've just purchased a 2 gig ibook, and that's one more Apple laptop and one less PC laptop.

Crippling computers only results in crappy machines. Apple's customers already know this, which is why they're not buying as much as Apple would like. PC users don't know the difference anyway, so why not cater to them a little.

If everyone here could buy a new (split the difference) 1.5 gig ibook, would they? If your options were a 900 mhz ibook or a 1 gig albook, would you buy either? Building better machines will result in more sales than in building "differentiated" machines, IMO.

I say, gimme the most power at the best price you can. I won't buy an intentionally crippled 900 mhz ibook, unless there's a big price drop. I won't buy an 1 gig albook either, because the speed/price combo isn't there (vs PC). But put out a 1.5 gig ibook, and I'd start thinking real hard...

areyouwishing

Apr 7, 2003, 03:24 PM

im a graphic designer and I can certainly say, my first apple machine will be a laptop. I can kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Check apple font/HTML compatibilities and get a portable for school. I could even say 3 birds, with the x11 enviroment now on a mac (on my way for a CIS degree).

Although I personally don't think this rumor holds too much water, The 12" powerbook is too expensive for what you get, if the ibooks go 900, expect the 12" pb to be the way of the cube.

Barefeats Benchmarks (ibook vs. imac vs. emac) (http://www.barefeats.com/emac.html)
This is a kind of interesting article on the ibook (700mhz). You can see the non-altivec scores... how many mobile people out there care about altivec? I don't, but i could be in the minority.

oops, even better...
ibook vs. Powerbooks (http://www.barefeats.com/pb17.html)

superscientific

Apr 7, 2003, 03:36 PM

how many mobile people out there care about altivec?

I do!!!

areyouwishing

Apr 7, 2003, 03:43 PM

sorry, i guess i should have clarified, I meant in a mobility sense.

I mean, I don't imagine a whole lot of people doing content creation that HAS to be altivec enhanced. Once again, I could be way off on this one.

Raiwong

Apr 7, 2003, 04:18 PM

apple is not promoting or putting effort into the ibook at all, they do nott sell the good points about the ibook rather they make the customers believe that they are getting something crap for a relatively cheap price when they are not.

ibooks are in fact quite fast apple is stupid not to try the market potential in promoting cheap and good laptops like ibooks which they are in comparison to pc laptops. instead they promote laptops which little people can afford in a economy like this

Abstract

Apr 7, 2003, 05:08 PM

I agree.

And about Altivec, if you're a graphic designer like you said you are, you will be one of those people interested in Altivec as well. For those who write reports, do some spreadsheet work, and check email, then the iBook is perfect.

And I agree with QCassidy and Thanatoast about the proposition of dropping the G4 all together. Even if you were to drop a 1GHz G4 into the iBook after the release of the 970 in the PB's, there isn't much upgradeability once you speed bump the iBook beyond that. Lets say from 1GHz, you can bump to 1.25 and 1.42 GHz. It's really a dead-end chip by a dead-end company with respect to Apple. IBM makes a perfectly good G3 without Altivec. I realize that Altivec in an iBook would be nice, but its a cheap consumer notebook. Lets not go overboard here. A professional graphics designer should not be purchasing an iBook to begin with, despite the price difference between that and the PB. If you need the power, you know where to turn --- the PB. If you need something to type essays with, then the iBook is the answer. The iBook was never meant to fill the needs of the graphics designers, and so the G3 is more than adequate for it's intention.

reyesmac

Apr 7, 2003, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by mstecker
You mean like the 12" and 17" Powerbooks?

Those two models didnt even get speedbumps, how can you say that they improved the platform in any big way? Those two models are not enough to justify the year of the laptop slogan.

And as far as the iBook finally getting to 900mhz, just look at what speed G3 Apple was using when it came out with the iBook and add up the years. We should have been past the ghz barrier on those things by now. Motorolla needs to go, just use new and fast IBM chips for everything.

QCassidy352

Apr 7, 2003, 05:29 PM

just to clarify what I meant about the 2 Ghz G3:

To my knowledge, what IBM currently has is a 1 Ghz G3. However, I remember reading a statement by IBM that they *could* push the G3 line to 2 Ghz without too much trouble (if someone, i.e. apple, were interested).

I meant that Apple could probably drop the 1 Ghz chips in to ibooks starting tomorrow (not literally tomorrow; you know what I mean), and have 2 Ghz ibooks available in an amount of time that would make us all very happy. :)

areyouwishing

Apr 7, 2003, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by Abstract
I agree.

And about Altivec, if you're a graphic designer like you said you are, you will be one of those people interested in Altivec as well. For those who write reports, do some spreadsheet work, and check email, then the iBook is perfect.

And I agree with QCassidy and Thanatoast about the proposition of dropping the G4 all together. Even if you were to drop a 1GHz G4 into the iBook after the release of the 970 in the PB's, there isn't much upgradeability once you speed bump the iBook beyond that. Lets say from 1GHz, you can bump to 1.25 and 1.42 GHz. It's really a dead-end chip by a dead-end company with respect to Apple. IBM makes a perfectly good G3 without Altivec. I realize that Altivec in an iBook would be nice, but its a cheap consumer notebook. Lets not go overboard here. A professional graphics designer should not be purchasing an iBook to begin with, despite the price difference between that and the PB. If you need the power, you know where to turn --- the PB. If you need something to type essays with, then the iBook is the answer. The iBook was never meant to fill the needs of the graphics designers, and so the G3 is more than adequate for it's intention.

The more I think about this from a (relatively price conscious) graphic designers standpoint, the more I see a preference for an ibook, rather than a Powerbook. I think everyone would agree that a designer does not want a 12.1" screen. So you can throw out the low-end powerbooks, and ibooks. That means that if you want altivec you are paying a premium of 800 bux just for a 1.1 inch larger screen and 160 altivec instructions, sure your getting the gigabit ethernet and the radeon 9000, but for 800 extra? Thats a lot. I also don't know of a designer that would "design" on a laptop, let alone need altivec on the road. It would be light work only, I know my light work i wouldn't need altivec, heck, I have a 800mhz p3 at work and it works good enough even on 40x50 airport displays @ 150 line screen, and it sure as hell doesn't have altivec. I mean yeah, if you have money to burn go get a powerbook, but 800 extra bux to save some seconds on a few apps only when on the road, just doesn't seem worth it, i could once again be wrong.

So lets have it... Who would pay $800 extra bones for the features in the 15" powerbook over the ibook?

Main Differences...
a G4 that is 66mhz faster
a 1.1" larger screen (1280x854)
10 more gigabytes
A Radeon 9000 (same 32mb)
Gigabit ethernet
1 hour LESS battery time

All this is supposed to equal $800?

AllenPSU

Apr 7, 2003, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
Whoa, easy on the G3...

I would love to see benchmarks of an 867 G4 and a 900 G3, I think it would surprise some people.

G3 is a great chip but comparing the 867 MHz Powerbook to a 900 Mhz iBook wouldn't give you a real good comparison between the processors. The two machines use differnt bus and memory configurations. I also think the base hardrives will have different performances (if they stick with the current harddrives.)

Motorola is coming out with an impressive low power model of the G4 in the higher Mhz range but still lacks the power performance IBM is able to get out of the G3.

All in all the G3 will out perform a G4 Mhz for Mhz in tasks that do not benefit from AltiVec.

iJon

Apr 7, 2003, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by AllenPSU
G3 is a great chip but comparing the 867 MHz Powerbook to a 900 Mhz iBook wouldn't give you a real good comparison between the processors. The two machines use differnt bus and memory configurations. I also think the base hardrives will have different performances (if they stick with the current harddrives.)

Motorola is coming out with an impressive low power model of the G4 in the higher Mhz range but still lacks the power performance IBM is able to get out of the G3.

All in all the G3 will out perform a G4 Mhz for Mhz in tasks that do not benefit from AltiVec.
well the 867 powerbook and 800 ibook benchmarks were pretty surprising in themselves. go to barefeats.

iJon

beefstu01

Apr 7, 2003, 07:13 PM

They may be coming soon, but not too soon.

Look here >> http://www.macprices.com/ibooktracker.shtml

Yeah, everybody's chock full of iBook stock. Sorry, it's not coming til' at least May.

sedarby

Apr 7, 2003, 07:20 PM

MacForbes

Apr 7, 2003, 08:05 PM

I think that the ibooks won't get updated to 970's anytime soon. I think they will be a chip behind again - so when the abooks are updated to 970's the ibooks will be updated to g4's. And as for having a faster ibook (900mhz) then the 12" abook (867mhz), I would think it unlikely. One would presume they would update the 12" powerbook to 900mhz too if the ibook was that speed, but maybe not. (There is always the g3 and g4 four factor I mean). Either way I'll be happy.

(And I hope that at least AE is added.):)

yzedf

Apr 7, 2003, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by areyouwishing
sorry, i guess i should have clarified, I meant in a mobility sense.

I mean, I don't imagine a whole lot of people doing content creation that HAS to be altivec enhanced. Once again, I could be way off on this one.
I agree 100%. On the road, a "pro" level notebook isn't used for much, except for maybe simple stuff like powerpoint / keynote presentations. Any "real" processing of data is done in the office, on the desktop or servers. It is much more of a status thing than anything else.

Having recently sat thru 3 different presentations by software companies trying to sell a complete software solution for our import business, I can honestly say the best presentation was on a PII Dell laptop that could barely run Windows XP Pro and Office XP Pro. But we saw what the company was about, and it wsan't trying to show us that our money was being used to buy the latest $4000 laptop, but rather towards a real product, with intelligence to back it up.

My point is, Apple does not seem to have a real product. They try to show me that the "pro" series is worth 30% or more of their "consumer" line, but there is nothing to back it up. And then you have the PB 12" which is the bastard child of the PB line. It has the G4, and the new Al look, but nothing else that screams "pro" to me. I think people are tending to agree, judging by how quickly used ones were available on ebay. When I say available, I mean many to choose from, not 2 or 3.

I am tired of Apple telling me how smart they are, I want them to prove it. Either that, or stop selling sub-par hardware and finally make the switch *cough* to a software only company.

deputy_doofy

Apr 7, 2003, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by TMJ1974
Actually, if I've read correctly the IBM Sahara G3 (currently in the iBooks) already reaches speeds up to 2Ghz. It's Apple's choice not to use the higher end chips, all to make the PowerBook "look" better. Also, the Sahara can support a 200Mhz bus speed. Apple keeps it at 100Mhz, again for the sake of the PowerBook. It already has double the L2 cache, I'm surprised they haven't fooled with that.

The iBook can hold it's own in anything non-AltiVec according to test at some sites. If it weren't being held back, it would walk all over the PowerBook in alot of tasks. But that wouldn't "look" good would it ?

Tim

Well, based on a lot of things I've read, the G3 and G4 are very close in the benchmarks. The G4's main advantage is Altivec. While I don't know this to be 100% true, I've been hearing that the 970 is almost double the G4 at the same clock speed. This would mean that the 970 is also roughly double the G3 at the same clock speed.
That being the case, putting a 970 in the iBook with Altivec shut off would make the iBook a spectacular consumer system. Everything would be fast and would even allow the casual, novice videographer to do some work. The PowerBook with the full-powered 970 would benefit that much more, not only because of Altivec, but it would have the higher clocked 970's.
I see the point of G3s remaining in the iBook, but really, they might as well get the power of the new chip, with the new bus (900mhz vs. 200mhz vs 166mhz), and have some really powerful stuff. Just my opinion, however...

areyouwishing

Apr 8, 2003, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by TMJ1974
I appologize, I was incorrect, the Sahara can reach speeds of 1Ghz, somewhere I read 2Ghz, but the link below is from IBM. They would know best. The rest of my data was correct though...

Tim

You might have been thinking of this article, they talk about the PowerPC hitting 2ghz, but not specifically sahara.
http://news.com.com/2100-1001-257421.html?legacy=cnet

PeteyKohut

Apr 8, 2003, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by The Shadow

Bottom line, I reckon, is if Apple were to be worried about cannibalization, easily solved: put slower G4s in iBooks. As it stands, don't penalise iBook buyers with slower than necessary G3s.

I agree...I think it would be simpler to have the iBooks running on 600 and 700 Mhz G4's. Also, I would rather have a 600 G4 than a 900 Mhz G3, seeing as how OS X is sooo altivec savvy.

PeteyKohut

Apr 8, 2003, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by yzedf

I am tired of Apple telling me how smart they are, I want them to prove it. Either that, or stop selling sub-par hardware and finally make the switch *cough* to a software only company.

Sorry for posting back to back messages, but dude....that is just harsh!!!!!!

Raiwong

Apr 8, 2003, 04:18 AM

it would be interesting to point out that i've seen many people switch to a laptop fulltime because its so much more space saving and portable, now that they have finially shrunk to a attractive size.

I too am suprised that the cheaper 800mhz ibook can win the 12 inch PB in multiple tests. If indeed the ibook went 900mhz it beat the 12 inch even more and plus if apple DOES include a new graphic adapters that would essentially mean a goodbye to the 12 inch PB.

but the the 12 inch PB have a superdrive, an amature filmmaker like me really want one as printing VCDs in OSX is ridiculously annoying,

eric67

Apr 8, 2003, 04:26 AM

Dear all,

well I have the feeling that on that side of the atlantic you have missed a important info concerning the iBook. It was originally reported by hardware.fr then by macbidouille.com; but I think it will have a strong impact on iBook. here it is :
Asus (famous Pc motherboard manufacturer) has acquired on the 28 March from ECS the production plan located in Chungli, China. This plant was used by ECS to produce the iBook for Apple. The reason Asus acquired it is related to its plan to expand its capabilities for notebook production (simply double it).

So it seems quite clear to me that either the iBook is EOL soon, due to new line PBG4, or IBM is preparing an altivec-capable G3 if possible. Indeed, if Apple succeeded to push IBM to implement instruction set, aka Altivec / velocity engine into its coming PPC970, it points out to the future of MacOSX where we will definitely see more and more usage of Altivec; so this will also mean the end of non-capable altivec processor...

I do agree with all previous posting concerning the revamp iBook, only speed-bump would be cheap update, I mean not serious....Apple please get serious, either drop iBook, or make it more attractive or capable than 12'' Alu PBG4, drop its price, increase RAM, (but SODIMM RAM is getting more and more expensive due to production shift to DDR-RAM).
Thanks for reading
regards

The Shadow

Apr 8, 2003, 05:39 AM

Originally posted by eric67
So it seems quite clear to me that either the iBook is EOL soon, due to new line PBG4, or IBM is preparing an altivec-capable G3 if possible.
Whoa dude! That's really interesting speculation.

Wouldn't be funny / ironic if this became true, and the new G3 + Altivec for the consumer line were named the "G5"? :D

Well it would appeal to my sense of humour anyway.

So then what are the going to call the Power 4 derivative 970? The P4? That would be funny too!:)

(Spare me some lame G6 comeback! Unfunny;) )

Apr 8, 2003, 07:00 AM

...i just bought an ibook and today i installed 512 mb . i need it for presenting gfx-work and now it's just perfect... so what about 100mhz more, that's rediculous.
for sure there will be airport extreme and bluetooth integrated for the next revision. probably with ae card as standard. after intel announced the centrino and is forcing wireless mobility, apple has do be one step ahead again.
they could do it for the powerbook, too.
mobility and wireless are the keysolutions for laptops in the near future.
.a

Rincewind42

Apr 8, 2003, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by eric67
IBM is preparing an altivec-capable G3 if possible.

G3+Altivec is basically the G4. The only real difference between the PPC 750 and the PPC7400 was the added Altivec Unit and the faster floating point unit. The biggest problem with the 7400 was probably that Motorola fabbed it :).

mstecker

Apr 8, 2003, 02:03 PM

(on whether the introduction of the 12" and 17" PBooks substantially justified the "year of the laptop" tag:
Originally posted by reyesmac
Those two models didnt even get speedbumps, how can you say that they improved the platform in any big way? Those two models are not enough to justify the year of the laptop slogan.

Er, aren't you forgetting that they were introduced this year - the year of the laptop? Why would they need speed bumps when the JUST CAME OUT?

2COOL4SCHOOL

Apr 8, 2003, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by Thanatoast
I agree with QCassidy352 that Apple should skip the G4 altogether in the ibooks. Drop the 970s in the power lines. Keep the G4s in the imacs and push them as far as they'll go. And ramp up the G3s as far as they'll go in the ibooks.

Fix the ibooks first. Someone above said that Apple's laptop comptetitors aren't apple users, they're PC users, and I agree. If a multiple gigahertz ibook will pull people into the store, then do it. If they don't buy an albook, so what? They've just purchased a 2 gig ibook, and that's one more Apple laptop and one less PC laptop.

Crippling computers only results in crappy machines. Apple's customers already know this, which is why they're not buying as much as Apple would like. PC users don't know the difference anyway, so why not cater to them a little.

If everyone here could buy a new (split the difference) 1.5 gig ibook, would they? If your options were a 900 mhz ibook or a 1 gig albook, would you buy either? Building better machines will result in more sales than in building "differentiated" machines, IMO.

I say, gimme the most power at the best price you can. I won't buy an intentionally crippled 900 mhz ibook, unless there's a big price drop. I won't buy an 1 gig albook either, because the speed/price combo isn't there (vs PC). But put out a 1.5 gig ibook, and I'd start thinking real hard...

Totally

Enkerli

Apr 8, 2003, 04:47 PM

Well, maybe not *that* extreme a measure, but I really think Apple should take advantage of the iBook more. And, IMHO, it means adding BT and AE as well as putting efforts in advertising the iBook better.
Just think of the schools with iBook programs. Wouldn't they want to use AirPort Extreme? (They probably don't care if 802.11g has taken off or not). Selling these AE base stations can't be a bad thing for Apple.
As for Bluetooth, the target iBook buyer may not have a T68i, but having Bluetooth on the laptop makes a lot of sense.
I agree with some comments above on the lack of attention Apple gives the iBook. It truly deserves more. Using mine in truly mobile situations (went to West Africa with it), I can say it's really not just a cheap portable.
Maybe they don't get good enough margins on them, but the apparent success of the iBooks should teach Apple a lesson. Namely that people (including Windows and Unix switchers) want light, power-friendly, inexpensive, full-featured laptops.

john123

Apr 8, 2003, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by Enkerli
Well, maybe not *that* extreme a measure, but I really think Apple should take advantage of the iBook more. And, IMHO, it means adding BT and AE as well as putting efforts in advertising the iBook better.
Just think of the schools with iBook programs. Wouldn't they want to use AirPort Extreme? (They probably don't care if 802.11g has taken off or not). Selling these AE base stations can't be a bad thing for Apple.
As for Bluetooth, the target iBook buyer may not have a T68i, but having Bluetooth on the laptop makes a lot of sense.
I agree with some comments above on the lack of attention Apple gives the iBook. It truly deserves more. Using mine in truly mobile situations (went to West Africa with it), I can say it's really not just a cheap portable.
Maybe they don't get good enough margins on them, but the apparent success of the iBooks should teach Apple a lesson. Namely that people (including Windows and Unix switchers) want light, power-friendly, inexpensive, full-featured laptops.

I think what you are really trying to say is that you'd like a cheaper full-featured notebook...not that there is a "lesson" for Apple here.

They are a company and are thus interested in profits. Cannibalizing PowerBook sales -- like what you're suggesting -- is not the road to profits.

There are a lot of people here who have suggested (some more tactfully than others) that Apple is "stupid" not to play up the merits of the iBook and to cripple it in some regards. To those of you arguing this opinion, do you have a degree in economics with a lot of coursework in microeconomics? If the answer is "no," then I respectfully submit you lack the mathematical training to make this kind of judgement call. And even if the answer is "yes," you still lack access to all the data that Apple's pencil-pushers have...so let's give them the benefit of the doubt, shall we?

Snowy_River

Apr 8, 2003, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by macrumors12345
Yes, it may be as well suited as the current 180 nm 7455. But to be fair you should compare the 130 nm 7457...

I for one would not object to Apple sticking with the 130 nm 7457 for the Powerbook if it means that they can ship light, efficient, and fast (but not workstation-class) laptops.

[Re: 970 in PB at the same time as PM]
Conceivably, but don't hold your breath. Remember, it took almost 18 months for the G4 (MPC 7400/7410) to find its way into the Powerbook...

Two things, from what I've read, Moto may be on a course to produce 7457s by the end of the year, but IBM wants to be well on the way to the 90nm 970 by then. Anyway, how often have we heard Moto say 'we'll be shipping the new chip by , and it'll blow you away...'? So, I'd guess that if the 7457 ships, it'll be the new chip for the iBook (which might move to the 7455 in the mean time), while the PowerBooks go to the 970.

And as to the PowerBooks moving to the 970, referring to how long it took Apple to get a mobile version of the G4 ready is rather irrelevent. The G4 has been the fluke. If you look back farther, almost every time Apple has had a chip that can be shipped in a mobile configuration it has done so, releasing the chip [i]at the same time in both PowerBooks and PowerMacs. The easiest example is the G3. Both the G3 PowerBook (aka Kanga) and the first generation G3 PowerMac were released in November of 1997. So, if we are to assume that the 970 is mobile friendly, then we can draw the conclusion that Apple will release PowerBooks with it.

websterphreaky

Apr 8, 2003, 06:19 PM

I'd buy one long before buying that 12" Aluminoid PB keychain fob. Reports on MacFixit and from my local Apple dealer both, indicate that the new AlBook still has a lousy WiFi range compared to the iBook and Barefeats tested the latest iBook as faster than the 877 12" AlBook!

I have a 700/14" iBook I use for business and personal things day in and day out. I chose it over the anemic TiBook 800 (for the price) compared to the iBook.

If the iBook goes 900MHz and the price is at least the same, I'd move up 6 months after introduction. (With all the bugs and sloppy mfg. Apples been doing lately, I'd never buy right after issuance!)

macrumors12345

Apr 8, 2003, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by Snowy_River
Two things, from what I've read, Moto may be on a course to produce 7457s by the end of the year, but IBM wants to be well on the way to the 90nm 970 by then.

Yes, the 7457 is supposed to be in production somewhere between Q2 and Q4, depending on which Moto docs you look at. However, nowhere have I read that IBM "wants to be well on the way to the 90 nm 970 by then." I think this is just over-optimism on the part of some in the Mac rumors community, who believe what they want to believe rather than what the evidence would suggest that they ought to believe. Remember, IBM has barely even committed to shipping the 130 nm 970 by the end of the year (they have only said "2H 03" for the 970...now, maybe production is going better than expected, but if so they certainly haven't admitted it yet). And at CeBit they implied that there will be another release of the 130 nm 970s (i.e. running at up to 2.5 Ghz). So even if they really beat expectations and somehow managed to get the 970 out of the door by the end of the summer, they would still have another batch of 130 nm 970s to release in, say, winter. Thus it is safe to assume that they probably will not be producing 90 nm 970s until well into 2004. It's not impossible that they could produce them earlier, but certainly we have no good reason to believe that they will.

Anyway, how often have we heard Moto say 'we'll be shipping the new chip by , and it'll blow you away...'?

Look, I am not going to defend Moto's record on shipping processors! Who would? Nevertheless, the fact that the 7457 is already sampling means a lot (specifically, it means that it's at about the same stage in its life as the 970 is currently, according to IBM's indications back in October). And I am sure that Apple has a much better idea of when it will ship than you or I do - if they have good reason to expect that the 7457 will ship before the end of the year, then presumably they will use it.

So, I'd guess that if the 7457 ships, it'll be the new chip for the iBook (which might move to the 7455 in the mean time), while the PowerBooks go to the 970.

I seriously doubt the iBook would move to 7455. Too hot. Maybe 7457 if the Powerbook moves to 970, since they should be available around the same time. But actually, I really like the 750FX for the iBook...if they let it run above 1 Ghz and upped the memory bus speed to 150+ mhz, then it would be a nice little chip for the iBook - super low power, cheap, and pretty zippy.

rather irrelevent. The G4 has been the fluke. If you look back farther, almost every time Apple has had a chip that can be shipped in a mobile configuration it has done so, releasing the chip [i]at the same time in both PowerBooks and PowerMacs. The easiest example is the G3. Both the G3 PowerBook (aka Kanga) and the first generation G3 PowerMac were released in November of 1997.

"Every time" is like two times at most (G3 and the 603e...sort of). Well, two out of three isn't that bad. So if the 970 were well suited to mobile applications, then I might agree with you (though I still claim that the 970 Powerbook will NEVER ship before the 970 tower, which is what many are implying). But...

So, if we are to assume that the 970 is mobile friendly, then we can draw the conclusion that Apple will release PowerBooks with it.

I would strongly dispute this assumption! The 970 is not "mobile friendly." 19 watts at 1.2 Ghz...certainly it could be worse, but I wouldn't label it as "mobile friendly." The Pentium 4-M, which is a terrible mobile chip, dissipates between 20-30 watts dependening on the core voltage setting, so the PPC 970 does intrude upon the lower range of the Pentium 4-M's power dissipation. The latest 7455 dissipates 14 watts at 1 Ghz (see http://e-www.motorola.com/brdata/PDFDB/docs/PPCSALESFACT.pdf), and even it is considered to be a little hot. So while I agree that it is feasible to put the 130 nm 970 into a Powerbook (at low clock speeds), I would certainly NOT call it "mobile friendly" or imply that it would be in any way easy to design a light 970-equipped Powerbook with good battery life. Because at the end of the day, it's just not a great mobile processor, at least not before a process shrink. Better than the P4-M, yes, but that is not saying a whole lot.

bentmywookie

Apr 8, 2003, 11:11 PM

If apple did only update the iBooks by 100 mhz and that was it, I can't imagine what in the world they would put on the front page of apple.com when they announce.

How funny would this be:

"The new 900 Mhz iBook"

oooooooh, now that's one bad-ass computer!

Raiwong

Apr 9, 2003, 05:49 AM

ROFL minimize the page and introducing the new centrino 1.4ghz that can blow 7 hours in battery now for a cheaper price then ever

I don't think the problem of people buying stuff is BT or AE both of these are well in their infancy and they are more like fancy stuff. THE REAL PROBLEM is people nowadays have no money to afford stuff like PB, hence ibook is a hugely popular not because that it has impressive features and speed, but because it has a good price for what you get.

This is the main reason why apple sales have been dropping its just because the economy is in reccesion more and more people are seeing less the need of buying new computers. ibook sales have been incredibly good in comparison to other apple hardware is because its cheap and u get top stuff for a cheap price this is why I believe apple should work more on the ibook other then fancy stuff that nobody can afford

nobody not literaly I know alot of richass here can probably afford PB, PM, but i'm talking about the majority of the world. and specifically in japan and us.

Enkerli

Apr 9, 2003, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by john123
They are a company and are thus interested in profits. Cannibalizing PowerBook sales -- like what you're suggesting -- is not the road to profits.
It's not what I'm suggesting and I don't think my suggestion would have this effect.
Originally posted by john123
There are a lot of people here who have suggested (some more tactfully than others) that Apple is "stupid" not to play up the merits of the iBook and to cripple it in some regards.

Again, it's not what I'm saying. I don't think the iBook is "crippled" in any way. What I'm saying, and it is speculative (but this is a rumor site, isn't it?) is that Apple could take advantage of the iBook's success. As for playing up the merits of the iBook, it's closer to what I meant but it's not exactly it. If, as I surmise, there's a market for Unix and Windows "switchers" who enter the Mac community with an iBook, this phenomenon can help Apple in several ways, including financially. One way to "play it up" is simply to address it on the iBook page.
As for having credentials in economics, I don't think it's what matters most in a forum thread on a site dedicated to rumors.
Given the relatively small price (and profit margin) difference between i- and AlBooks, I don't think approaching feature parity between them would hurt AlBook sales altogether so much. The two lines do cater to different needs. The G4 (however overrated), display options, and design are worth the $300. And the internal SuperDrive itself is well worth the $500 for those who need it. But that's a matter of opinion.

MacsRgr8

Apr 9, 2003, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by The Shadow
Whoa dude! That's really interesting speculation.

Wouldn't be funny / ironic if this became true, and the new G3 + Altivec for the consumer line were named the "G5"? :D

Well it would appeal to my sense of humour anyway.

So then what are the going to call the Power 4 derivative 970? The P4? That would be funny too!:)

(Spare me some lame G6 comeback! Unfunny;) )

Funny, I was thinking the same thing....
"G5" for IBM's version of G4..... (G3 + Altivec)
"G5 Pro" or something for IBM's 970.....

Someone mentioned that Apple had done a good Job marketing the "G4" as a fast processor. So "G5" should appeal to those as super fast, and G5 Pro... well, :)

Personally I would like to see them stop using this G "<whatever>" . Reminds me of Moto.

s_owen03

Apr 10, 2003, 07:52 PM

why does apple maintain the iBook line as-is? it is utterly inferior to competitively priced presarios and such notebooks... although a low-priced alternative to the powerbook is quite welcome, how far does one have to go down to get an apple laptop at a decent price? does anyone know when the iBooks, apple's only current line with G3s, are going to be upgraded? seems like a waste of money to me...

i dont mean to rag on apple laptops, the powerbooks are fantastic alternatives to windows notebooks and have plenty of power to back up their attractive design.

jefhatfield

Apr 16, 2003, 01:03 AM

Originally posted by ratspg
i'D never buy an ibook G3 at 900mhz and no new features, seems really lame...who cares... iPods, and iTunes, and thats pretty much my worries.

from where i sit with a 300 mhz ibook, a 900 mhz model sounds very good

being that apple has come out with a relatively inexpensive g4 powerbook, it seems likely that ibook won't go to the g4 until powerbook can move into a lot higher speeds than 867 mhz and 1 ghz

waiting for the ibook to go g4 while waiting for the powerbook to go 970 or g5 will be very long and paniful and may take a couple of years or even 18 months and that is too slow considering where the pcs are in the laptop realm

Raiwong

Apr 16, 2003, 03:27 PM

you must think it in price to feature ratio though the ibook is not on par with vaio or presario laptops, the design and price is better for what you get, now if apple ac tually dump that 1ghz CPU in then ibook will be a real winner.

Thanatoast

Apr 16, 2003, 03:44 PM

Bring on bluetooth and the Gigahertz! I want an excuse to buy an ibook! (A little more pre-installed ram would be nice, too! ;) )

jefhatfield

Apr 16, 2003, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by Raiwong
you must think it in price to feature ratio though the ibook is not on par with vaio or presario laptops, the design and price is better for what you get, now if apple ac tually dump that 1ghz CPU in then ibook will be a real winner.

in apple's lineup, dollar for dollar, the ibook at $999 US is a winner

but i think hp/compaq and dell, with laptops under $800 dollars, and way faster than 1 ghz, are better for the money in basic everyday usage

Raiwong

Apr 16, 2003, 06:06 PM

thats if you don't care about looks or style ibook is about the most stylish notebook you can get for that price range.

Apple][Forever

Apr 16, 2003, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Raiwong
thats if you don't care about looks or style ibook is about the most stylish notebook you can get for that price range.

or size, or weight, or battery life...

bigduke6

Apr 16, 2003, 07:21 PM

Unless you are completely new to the platform, every Mac user with a brain knows that multiple sites have posted rumors about new iBooks and eMacs. This puts a big halt on people ordering the current models. My girlfriend has been using a Sony Vaio for about a two years now and I have finally convinced her to buy a iBook. She wants to order now or look into getting a new Vaio. So Apple gets off bar stool and annouce the damn things. Windows drives me freaking nuts.

Bateman

Apr 16, 2003, 07:38 PM

Well, I just finished reading a summary of the fiscal report that Apple released today. The summary (http://www.macnn.com/feature.php?id=378) was provided by MacNN and shows alot of the highlights.

One thing I noticed was the observation that the 12" Powerbook was "cannabilizing" the sales of the iBook. Usually this topic is looked at from the inverse perspective. So does this mean anything?

I guess it might, and the way I see it, personally, is that now Apple has a decision to make.
1. They upgrade the iBooks or
2. They make more features on the Powerbook reflect the Prosumer position which the Powerbook is supposed to fill to further differentiate the two lines.

Now which is going to come first or is the most reasonable? I believe that the name of this thread says it all....

iBook updates are imminent.

I just found it interesting that they specifically mentioned this issue.

just my 2 cents!

jefhatfield

Apr 16, 2003, 08:08 PM

with technology as sophisticated as it is now, there may not a line beween pro and consumer

Bateman

Apr 16, 2003, 09:21 PM

jefhatfield
with technology as sophisticated as it is now, there may not a line beween pro and consumer

That is true indeed, and I suppose this is where Stevo feels he has to make these designations.

If i had things my way i'd like to be able to throw a 970 into an iBook for my college computer! But right now all i'm hoping for is some speed bumps and maybe even a redesign...

GeneR

Apr 17, 2003, 11:47 PM

If this IS the year of the notebook, then why not have a G4 iBook released at the same time as a 970 powerbook?

xenotek

Apr 18, 2003, 08:13 PM

I have just been given ultra reliable information that says that the iBook updates will be announced sometime within the next week. I don't want to speculate on the exact details, but we should expect great things.

jefhatfield

Apr 18, 2003, 11:50 PM

the 12" inch powerbook is amazing whatever they decide to call it next year...like G4 ibook...or whatever

i like the idea of altivec in a tiny, sturdy aluminum case that weighs just 4.6 lbs.:D

Abstract

Apr 19, 2003, 12:46 AM

Sorry bud, but I'll believe you when it happens. To me, you're an unreliable source since I've never seen you before. Its not personal, but iBook rumours are the easiest rumours to make up because you know that updates are definitely coming up, and you can take a pretty good guess at the new specs, so all iBook rumours sound credible to me because of the high possibility of them being true. I can say that they're coming out in 2 weeks with a 900Mhz processor and look like a genius if I'm right, but there aren't a lot of possibilities.

jefhatfield

Apr 19, 2003, 01:00 AM

exactly, about a 900 mhz ibook, or even 1 ghz

but if someone said there will be a 1.25 ghz ibook next week...i would be very skeptical

when the cube came out, i believed it was to be a g3 cube...but not a g4 cube...i was very pleasantly surprised

but i think the initial high price of the cube killed this product and by the time apple lowered the price a couple of times to the right level...it was already too late

AppleMatt

Apr 19, 2003, 09:52 AM

Hi all I'm gonna fly OT here:

I have heard that the lower spec iBook is solid white plastic while the better one is clear plastic painted white on the inside (which sounds better).

Can someone (just one lol) clear this up for me?

Cheers,
AppleMatt

zach

Apr 19, 2003, 11:19 AM

AppleMatt,

What you heard is correct. I have a iBook with clear plastic with the paint, and I have to admit it looks a LOT better than the solid white plastic. That is, however, just my opinion....

xenotek

Apr 19, 2003, 02:51 PM

The skepticism is appreciated, Abstract. It's usually a good idea to take newbie info with a grain of salt, bu the info i got came directly from the horses mouth. On a slightly different note, it seems to me that the release of an updated iBook wouldn't come at the same time as a new PowerBook update. I could be wrong, but I don't remember Apple ever updating their entire laptop line in one fell swoop. Sorry to all of you PowerBook fans who have been drooling over the prospects of a 15.4 inch since february. Doesn't look like it'll be anytime soon.

jefhatfield

Apr 19, 2003, 08:35 PM

ibook is due for the update...so it's not rocket science

but what one may suggest about all laptops being changed does not seem likely

AppleMatt

Apr 20, 2003, 01:21 PM

MacWhispers has this....

We have been told that the plastic housings for both the eMac and iBook have "recently been slightly modified" and that "the new versions have been shipping for assembly for about three weeks."

AppleMatt

Abstract

Apr 20, 2003, 05:30 PM

Well Xenotek, again I meant no offense, but everybody has a source, it seems. That's why there are sites entirely dedicated to rumours *cough* that contain information said to have been from a credible source. I'd say that you have a 50% chance of being right though. But again, it was an inevitability anyway. I hope he is though. That way I don't have to wait until June, the "other" rumoured date for these notebook updates.

Did your source mention anything about the specs, or anything about physical changes? I'd really liket to know. I hope they give us another option other than white. Its too hospital-sterilized clean, and has a bit of a wussy look. I realize that its only the outside of the notebook, but lets face it, a lot of people buy an iBook for it's looks, which may actually be a turnoff for a part of the market that dislikes the look. They may be able to gain more sales if they added a colour/tone that didn't make me scared of scuffing it. Give me grey, or a sophisticated dark/navy blue, or even a dark red. Something......anything is better than white to me.

timbloom

Apr 20, 2003, 09:46 PM

1. The $999 ibook (since the last introduction), has had different plastics than the rest of the line. The hinge is also white too. The palmrest is a more textured, ligher-colored plastic that feels a little sturdier. I believe apple did this just as a quaint little transition, similar to the plastics change on the old clamshell ibook when they went to smoother plastics.

2. Availability of the ibook on the apple store is at 3-5 days, changing out of nowhere on friday, distributors often take longer to clear their inventory. Since there is no particular jump in demand, they would not just run low on inventory unless it is intentional. I have heard from my own sources that this is definate when I asked. But I did not pull this idea from a rumor, but I have been at this game for quite some time, and the obvious flags are popping up all over. Wether it is a speedbump or just a feature update for things like AE or BT, who knows. But they will be replaced at the beggining of the week monday-wednesday.

shadowfax

Apr 20, 2003, 10:54 PM

Originally posted by timbloom
1. The $999 ibook (since the last introduction), has had different plastics than the rest of the line. The hinge is also white too. The palmrest is a more textured, ligher-colored plastic that feels a little sturdier. I believe apple did this just as a quaint little transition, similar to the plastics change on the old clamshell ibook when they went to smoother plastics.
i think that plastic was cheaper, actually, an attempt to rather cut corners. the plastic on the 1300$ is more rigid, and translucent.

timbloom

Apr 21, 2003, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
i think that plastic was cheaper, actually, an attempt to rather cut corners. the plastic on the 1300$ is more rigid, and translucent.

considering my ibook with the old plastic is scratched to hell and back, and the palm rest plastic is falling apart by itself, i think that I would welcome any change. I personally think the case plasics look nicer, since they are a solid white and not painted on the inside, if a little component scratches against that plastic it is like an etch-a-sketch and looks really bad.

shadowfax

Apr 21, 2003, 12:55 AM

Originally posted by timbloom
considering my ibook with the old plastic is scratched to hell and back, and the palm rest plastic is falling apart by itself, i think that I would welcome any change. I personally think the case plasics look nicer, since they are a solid white and not painted on the inside, if a little component scratches against that plastic it is like an etch-a-sketch and looks really bad. ...which you can easily paint under without making it noticeable, i'm sure :p

personally, i think this is just you. i have a tibook, which i take to school almost every day, as well as many other places, and it's gotten 2 noticeable scratches on it, and only a few other very minor ones. i am careful, but not anal about it. scratching plastic id pretty outrageous to me :rolleyes:

i think that the $999 iBook plastic would end up just as bad in your hands :p

timbloom

Apr 21, 2003, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
...which you can easily paint under without making it noticeable, i'm sure :p

i think that the $999 iBook plastic would end up just as bad in your hands :p

I actually ordered a lid for mine online, and painted that one, it was really cool, but when I started having bad problems with the actual machine, I slapped the old one back on and sent it into apple. But, if they use the new plastic on the machines they are going to start shipping next week, I am getting one, this 500 mhz just can't keep up anymore. I will let you all know how that one holds up to my use. the bad thing i notice about the one i have, is if you get a scratch, it will cast a shadow on the white paint underneath making it more noticable, and that wouldnt happen on a solid colored plastic. It scratches rather easily I would have to say right now. I am looking forward to my new machine, it is whatever $1299 model comes out. or the current 1299 one if it is not replaced.

maradong

Apr 21, 2003, 03:28 AM

is it possible the ibooks will come out with a g4, if the 970 s will be put sometimes in the perhaps near future in the powermacs and powerbooks?
Would be cool.
Another possible upgrade may be the ddr ram, much faster, introduced in i think all the models apart emac and ibook till now...

timbloom

Apr 21, 2003, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by maradong
is it possible the ibooks will come out with a g4, if the 970 s will be put sometimes in the perhaps near future in the powermacs and powerbooks?
Would be cool.
Another possible upgrade may be the ddr ram, much faster, introduced in i think all the models apart emac and ibook till now...

my personal belief is that we will not see g4's in them till the powerbooks go 970. The g3 is perfectly capable as a processor for these machines, after all it's age, it is still snappy. iBooks are for consumers that do not need to be encoding video and such, and by keeping with the g3, apple is able to keep the price down to a reasonable level, and the battery life strong. I forsee at least one upgrade cycle before g4s in the ibook.

Groovsonic

Apr 21, 2003, 12:22 PM

I am in a weird spot.

I am getting a new computer for college in july or august.

I am considering an iMac or an iBook.

I dont think I can afford any powerbook, since I will have about $1500 to spend. I don't really want an eMac, unless they make them REALLY upgraded and hard to resist, or REALLY cheap. I have a 17' FP iMac at home now, and I just can't see going back to a CRT. I could afford a bottom end PowerMac, but I wouldn't be able to get a screen, so thats a no.

If the iBook is updated now, it won be updated again until probably november, so I will have to be satisfied by what they come up with now. It's fine, since I will mostly only use it for Appleworks, iTunes, and surfing. Probably some recording stuff too.

With the current lineup, I can't see getting an iMac. It is weird the way they have it set up. There is a gap. If I am going to be tied down to a desktop, I want a 17' screen like the one I have at home. They should make the superdrive a delete option on the mid-leve iMac. It would be a bonus to have one, but it would certianly be cheaper without one. Not everyone needs to burn dvds.

I guess I will just have to wait and see.

Either way, I will probably get the iBook, and since this is probably the last update until I buy, I hope they really make it good. Here is what I'd like to see:

1 ghz G3
256mb Ram in slot one, standard (none of this 128 crap! What is this, 2001?), upgradeable to 768 or something.

That would be good enough to get me to buy it. A case update would be cool too, although the current one is cool.

jefhatfield

Apr 21, 2003, 02:45 PM

you know, macworld gave the imac 17" five mice...only $1799 us

pricewise, with the 15" inch being $500 less, i would then give that computer five mice, too

how much do you really need to be mobile?

Groovsonic

Apr 21, 2003, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by jefhatfield
you know, macworld gave the imac 17" five mice...only $1799 us

pricewise, with the 15" inch being $500 less, i would then give that computer five mice, too

how much do you really need to be mobile?

Its not really a need to be mobile, more of a want to be mobile.
If I had $1799 (or $1699 with the edu discount), it would be between the 12pb and the 17 iMac. I dunno, mabye I can squeeze some more money for the 17in iMac. But I am still having a difficult time, because I like the idea of being able to take my computer with me. But then again, how often will I need/want to do that? Arrg... I wish I had $10,000. Then I would buy a Pmac, and a Pbook.

Oh well, I will just have to wait and see whats available in july.

timbloom

Apr 21, 2003, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by Groovsonic
Its not really a need to be mobile, more of a want to be mobile.
If I had $1799 (or $1699 with the edu discount), it would be between the 12pb and the 17 iMac. I dunno, mabye I can squeeze some more money for the 17in iMac. But I am still having a difficult time, because I like the idea of being able to take my computer with me. But then again, how often will I need/want to do that? Arrg... I wish I had $10,000. Then I would buy a Pmac, and a Pbook.

Oh well, I will just have to wait and see whats available in july.

the 12" powerbook is also available for $1699 from the apple education store, you might look into that option, if you can raise an extra $200 from your original price range.

Black Badger

Apr 22, 2003, 05:32 AM

800 & 900Mhz iBook Available at the Applestore

Abstract

Apr 22, 2003, 11:52 AM

The news is.....is.......its earthshattering!!! :eek:

rastalin94

Apr 22, 2003, 01:24 PM

If I was going to college right now I would get a laptop. If you get a desktop you have to be in your room to do work, and if your first year is in a dorm, you just might now want to do your homework there. At least here, Univeristy of Illiois area, a lot of places are starting to have Wireless Access. Now where would you want to do your homework - in a small dorm room, or at a nice coffee shop while still being able to browse the Web for class info, checking email, and chating.

I would say go with the 14" version, but that is just a personal thing, the 12" is just too small for me.

Now if you wanted to do hard core graphics, or make DVD's that would be a different story, but for light baisc college use go with the iBook.

You never know some one might want to come talk to you at the coffeeshop because of your sexy technology :)

h00ligan

Apr 22, 2003, 01:42 PM

price for the 14" is incorrect o the enws page, fwiw.
it is 1499 not 1399

jefhatfield

Apr 27, 2003, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by rastalin94
If I was going to college right now I would get a laptop. If you get a desktop you have to be in your room to do work, and if your first year is in a dorm, you just might now want to do your homework there. At least here, Univeristy of Illiois area, a lot of places are starting to have Wireless Access. Now where would you want to do your homework - in a small dorm room, or at a nice coffee shop while still being able to browse the Web for class info, checking email, and chating.

now i didn't think of that

i lived in the dorms on campus and in off campus student housing for my second and part of my third year in college...i never did homework in an area like a dorm or off campus housing...too many distractions...needless to say, in those three years of college, i was a C student

of course, when i went to school two decades ago, they didn't have laptops, but the freedom one gives you to do your work away from student distractions like parties and school events will help you focus and hopefully give you better grades