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cubist

macrumors 68020
Jul 4, 2002
2,075
0
Muncie, Indiana
Maybe around Nov/Dec the iBooks will get 7457's; then they would only be "one generation behind". Power consumption will be low enough for them to keep cool. But I think it's more likely they'll go to 1.2GHz Sahara, then Gobi chips.

The iMac, however, has to go 970 with the PM. Consumers, especially gamers, need a fast computer. If you want a cheaper box, get the eMac.
 

QCassidy352

macrumors G5
Mar 20, 2003
12,028
6,036
Bay Area
"Yes this might result in some cannibalization of PB 12 sales because of MHz myth type ignorance, but what about the other competitors, ie PC notebooks? So, the more MHz the better I think."

I'm with you on this one. Stop worrying about apple canabalizing its own sales... the 12" PB is not the competition here; PC notebooks are. Yes it's nice to sell the more expensive PB, but anything that will get people in to a mac is good. When they won't even consider a mac because the Mhz is half that of a PC, that's when apple has to worry.

Also, I think the G3 is a nice little chip for laptops. No reason to bash it... I've heard (can't recall where, sry about that) IBM say that they could *easily* rev the G3 up to about 2 Ghz. A 2 Ghz ibook... that sound as nice to anyone else as it does to me? The only reason the ibook's processor is so darn slow is because motorola dropped the ball on the G4, and apple doesn't want its "consumer" portable to have twice the clockspeed of its "pro" portable. But, if we could get some 1.8-2.4 Ghz PPC 970s, then we might see a 1.4 Ghz G3 ibook or something. Sweet!
 

Mr T

macrumors newbie
Sep 16, 2002
23
0
A bite in the ass can hurt a lot

Apple has created it's own problem and should get bitten in the ass repeatedly until they learn a lesson. the AlBook 12" was stripped down way too much for the prosumer model - no card expansion, limited video out and a 867 G4 that L3 cache-less (what were they thinking) . No wonder consumers are thinking long and hard about what machine to buy. The fact that they have to cannibalize the iBook (the Sahara chip has been available at over 1.2 Ghz for over a year) just plain sucks. The G3 is a great mobile chip but consumers need the most powerful in order to use OS 10. Not giving us the fastest chip possible in the G3 line points to Apples arrogance and stupidity. Apple really does not give a crap about their customers only their bottom line. Don't buy anything from Apple until the model you want has a 970 -screw them like they are screwing you
 

pgwalsh

macrumors 68000
Jun 21, 2002
1,639
218
New Zealand
Re: A bite in the ass can hurt a lot

Originally posted by Mr T
Apple has created it's own problem and should get bitten in the ass repeatedly until they learn a lesson. the AlBook 12" was stripped down way too much for the prosumer model - no card expansion, limited video out and a 867 G4 that L3 cache-less (what were they thinking) . No wonder consumers are thinking long and hard about what machine to buy. The fact that they have to cannibalize the iBook (the Sahara chip has been available at over 1.2 Ghz for over a year) just plain sucks. The G3 is a great mobile chip but consumers need the most powerful in order to use OS 10. Not giving us the fastest chip possible in the G3 line points to Apples arrogance and stupidity. Apple really does not give a crap about their customers only their bottom line. Don't buy anything from Apple until the model you want has a 970 -screw them like they are screwing you

A little animosity?

I too think Apple needs to put as much power as they can in the laptops. I also think the iBooks should all be under $1K for the processors they have in them and the market they're targeting. The 12 pb should be beefier with card expansion etc... But, that's about all I go to say about that.. - Forrest Gump
 

mstecker

macrumors 6502
Jul 16, 2002
300
0
Philadelphia
Originally posted by reyesmac
If a speedbump is all Apple can manage in the "Year of the Laptop" then that title was just a smokescreen to take our eyes away from the desktop machines or something. If they really meant what they said then they have to have something better than a lousy speedbump.

You mean like the 12" and 17" Powerbooks?
 

TMJ1974

macrumors member
Jul 22, 2002
89
0
Originally posted by deputy_doofy
Dare I say this, but why doesn't Apple or IBM pull an Intel? They should intentionally cripple the 970's for the iBooks (shut off the Altivec units).
This way, in a year or 2, the iBooks could have 1, 1.2, and 1.4 Ghz machines, while the PowerBooks have 1.8, 2, 2.4 Ghz (WITH Altivec, and possibly duals, if they can manage to pull that off).

Actually, if I've read correctly the IBM Sahara G3 (currently in the iBooks) already reaches speeds up to 2Ghz. It's Apple's choice not to use the higher end chips, all to make the PowerBook "look" better. Also, the Sahara can support a 200Mhz bus speed. Apple keeps it at 100Mhz, again for the sake of the PowerBook. It already has double the L2 cache, I'm surprised they haven't fooled with that.

The iBook can hold it's own in anything non-AltiVec according to test at some sites. If it weren't being held back, it would walk all over the PowerBook in alot of tasks. But that wouldn't "look" good would it ?

Tim
 

Raiwong

macrumors member
Apr 7, 2003
79
0
that sounds ridiculous typing from a 800mhz ibook I can't believe that 2ghz chips are designed already. my ibook has good speed but 2ghz is a quantumm jump in improvement.

plus arn't we forgeting that the centrino chips are in so is the G3 power advantage important anymore?

an 100mhz bump is ok, I don't see how AE is usefull as most typical source bands don't reach 10mpbs anyways and bluetooth only works with those richass who can afford all sorts of gadgets, who would be able to afford PB anyway and average student won't have palm handhelds and t68i in the back of their pockets.

I can't think of any other improvement they could put in, superdrive is out of option unless they put it in which is unlikely and idvd cannot run with a G3. the graphic controller on the current ibook is actually quite decent for laptop.

its like because 12 inch pb is here, whatever they up they will damage the product margin. I mean RAM, I/O I can't think of any other improvements they can put without hitting their own 12pb.

If there was two features I'd take it be a backlight keyboard, better speakers. I'd really want a superdrive though.
 

JGowan

macrumors 68000
Jan 29, 2003
1,766
23
Mineola TX
There is no smokescreen

Originally posted by reyesmac
If a speedbump is all Apple can manage in the "Year of the Laptop" then that title was just a smokescreen to take our eyes away from the desktop machines or something. If they really meant what they said then they have to have something better than a lousy speedbump.
Steve Jobs dubbed 2003 the "Year of the Laptop" for sales reasons.

He spoke of how two years ago, Apple's sales were roughly the same percentage of PC laptops when compared to the sales of towers (or other desktop models.) Then last year, a trend started where Apple was selling a greatrer percentage of laptops, than the industry and he saw the potential for this year for laptop sales to be even better, espcially with the introduction of the 12" & the 17" PowerBooks. He noted that the desktop computers were still out-selling the laptop, but that the laptop was gaining in popularity.

I don't know what you mean by "smokescreen",... people are simply buying what they want/need. Jobs is simply pointing out that because the laptops are becoming powerful enough & with enough screen real estate (for the average and the pro-user) AND a whole lot sexier: they're simply selling more of them than they used to.

There is no smokescreen. If people buy the 17" over a tower, it's because it finally became too good to pass up.
 

RLB

macrumors member
Feb 4, 2003
51
0
There is still same day shipping on the low end ibooks. Is the upgrade really imminent? I feel like there are no ipods to be found in stores and they are now shipping in 3-5 days (let alone there is no ipods for 299 $ or refurbished ones to be found), why upgrade the ibooks first?
 

redAPPLE

macrumors 68030
May 7, 2002
2,677
5
2 Much Infinite Loops
Re: A bite in the ass can hurt a lot

Originally posted by Mr T
Apple has created it's own problem and should get bitten in the ass repeatedly until they learn a lesson. the AlBook 12" was stripped down way too much for the prosumer model - no card expansion, limited video out and a 867 G4 that L3 cache-less (what were they thinking) . No wonder consumers are thinking long and hard about what machine to buy. The fact that they have to cannibalize the iBook (the Sahara chip has been available at over 1.2 Ghz for over a year) just plain sucks. The G3 is a great mobile chip but consumers need the most powerful in order to use OS 10. Not giving us the fastest chip possible in the G3 line points to Apples arrogance and stupidity. Apple really does not give a crap about their customers only their bottom line. Don't buy anything from Apple until the model you want has a 970 -screw them like they are screwing you

ha ha. i think i will do that... :p

just hope i won't wait that long till it ships ;)
 

Snowy_River

macrumors 68030
Jul 17, 2002
2,520
0
Corvallis, OR
Originally posted by macrumors12345
Um...yeah...PPC 970 iBooks...that'll happen soon. Because clearly Apple always puts their greatest processor in the iBook (that's why it is using the G3, which debutted in 1997) and clearly the 130 nm 970 is so well suited for mobile applications. I guess your reality check just keeps bouncing, huh?

While I doubt we'll see the 970 jump into the iBook any time soon, everything that we have heard indicates that the 130nm 970 is well suited for mobile applications. Much better suited than the G4, in fact, even in its current mobile incarnation. So, I do think that we'll see 970 based PowerBooks reasonably soon, probably at about the same time as the 970 based PMs are released.

Sooner is better!! :D
 

jettredmont

macrumors 68030
Jul 25, 2002
2,731
328
Product Differentiation

Either Apple is really stupid (which I doubt), or these repeated assertions that Apple is keeping their consumer lines castrated so they don't "cannibalize" higher-end sales are wrong.

I really hope the latter.

If the 12" G4 PowerBook isn't appealing to buyers, then (1) it shouldn't have been introduced, (2) production should be slowed down on it, or (3) if lower-quantity production is not cost-effective, it should be dropped. I mean, this is first-year economics, hardly something that should be tripping up a $4B company!

If salespeople are having a hard time reaching quotas on the 12" PB but are surpassing quotas on the iBook line, then your quotas need to be adjusted! As the same company is handling both production and retail, there should be very little friction there!

Now, product line differentiation is good, but not when you are selling yourself short to achieve it. The "Power" line should showcase the higher-end power-user features, and the "i" line the consumer-oriented features. FW800 is a pro-level feature. Expandability (PC card slot) is a pro-level feature. Altivec, perhaps, might be considered a pro-level feature (given the heat cost, that's probably right in the notebook lineup). A specific speed of processor? Not pro-level at all, unless the faster processor is appreciably more expensive.

On the other hand, there is a natural supply-side reason for Apple's practices, and it has nothing to do with blind and rabid product differentiation: quantity of available stock determines how "low" on the line a particular item can go, and product development resources determine how quickly any particular technology can filter through product lines. Take the first item: if you only have 1000 1.43GHz G4s coming out each month, you shouldn't be putting them into a 5000 unit-per-month product line (you could, of course, but would have to increase the cost of that product until it was a 1000 unit-per-month line, which wreaks havoc on the economics of the other parts going into that product ...) Then for development time: for each product line, there are unique features that mean that Apple has to dedicate development resources to fitting any new CPU and/or chipset into each product line. Apple doesn't have the resources (not many companies do in fact) to turn all of its product lines over in a month or two. Because of the first principle above and the fact that new parts are generally in shorter supply than more established parts, it makes sense that the first team given these redevelopment resources is the highest-end/lowest-quantity team, and that resource allocation then trickles down through the ranks until all product lines are able to use the line.

The third principle that keeps the product lines differentiated is that of multiple sources. Apple is a lot safer getting CPUs from two companies than from one. If IBM is only (so far) supplying G3's and motorola has no interest in providing anything better or worse than a G4, then Apple is in a much better position if it is buying both G3's and G4's than if it were to move all to G4's. This is, of course, also why I suspect we won't see Apple completely dump the G3/G4 lines when the 970 debuts.

The point I am trying to make is that there are "natural" reasons for product-line differentiation, and unless you are quite incompetent in managing your product lines, this differentiation should both arise quite naturally and be incredibly hard to avoid. There is NO need to artificially "hold back" one line because it might look too much like another line. If your lines are looking too much alike, the root cause is that you have too many lines! IIRC, this was approximately jab's assessment when he cme back to Apple as well: too many lines to keep a coherent message about each.

So, this is either a myth coming from the sales lines or it is a sign of pathetically poor product management.
 

jettredmont

macrumors 68030
Jul 25, 2002
2,731
328
Originally posted by caveman_uk
I still think the 900MHz machine will cannibalise powerbook sales as it's 900MHz vs. 867Mhz and quite a lot on the less informed buyers don't know the difference between a G3 and G4.

1) That's why Apple has its own stores, to educate their buyers.

2) The "i" line is specifically targetted at those who don't care about the details of what's in their machines. If you can't understand the difference between a G3 and a G4 (or, can't use the difference), then an iBook is really targetted at you!

If a 900MHz iBook cannibalizes 12"PB sales, then the 12"PB production should be scaled back or stopped, and shouldn't have been started in the first place.
 

QCassidy352

macrumors G5
Mar 20, 2003
12,028
6,036
Bay Area
" Actually, if I've read correctly the IBM Sahara G3 (currently in the iBooks) already reaches speeds up to 2Ghz. It's Apple's choice not to use the higher end chips, all to make the PowerBook 'look' better. Also, the Sahara can support a 200Mhz bus speed. Apple keeps it at 100Mhz, again for the sake of the PowerBook. It already has double the L2 cache, I'm surprised they haven't fooled with that."

Exactly... this is what I was trying to say above. :) IBM is much more on the ball with chip development than motorola. The ibooks would indeed "walk all over" the powerbooks if Apple would just make use of what IBM could easily do with the G3. Unfortunately, Apple is more concerned with distinguishing between its own lines of computers than with competing with wintel laptops. The real problem here is that the "consumer" laptops use a processor made by a much smarter company than the company that makes the chips for the "pro" laptops. IBM could dazzle us with the G3 anytime Apple wanted, but stupid Motorola has dropped the ball, and stupid Apple has to keep their precious pro/ consumer distinctions even though it means intentionally crippling what could be a very fast ibook.

I for one hope that the ibook *never* gets a G4. When the PB goes 970, then push the G3 as high as it can go, and I think we'll all be pleasently surprised. In a couple of years when the 970 is old news, replace the G3 with that, and skip the G4 altogether.
 

TMJ1974

macrumors member
Jul 22, 2002
89
0
Originally posted by Raiwong
that sounds ridiculous typing from a 800mhz ibook I can't believe that 2ghz chips are designed already. my ibook has good speed but 2ghz is a quantumm jump in improvement.

I appologize, I was incorrect, the Sahara can reach speeds of 1Ghz, somewhere I read 2Ghz, but the link below is from IBM. They would know best. The rest of my data was correct though.

Take a look

http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/products/powerpc/newsletter/oct2001/new-prod1.html

Why doesn't Apple use 1Ghz and the rest of those features....that would be a nice iBook :)

Tim
 

MacsRgr8

macrumors G3
Sep 8, 2002
8,285
1,755
The Netherlands
Assuming the Sahara G3 can reach speeds up to 2 GHz, supporting a 200 Mhz bus.
Why not have a 2 GHz Sahara G3, 200 MHz bus PowerBook? A real pro user will know if he needs a 1 Ghz G4 or 2 Ghz G3. (also in towers?).

EDIT:
Right... I posted this right after the post above, but before reading it.
Forget it. :D
 

Raiwong

macrumors member
Apr 7, 2003
79
0
Originally posted by MacsRgr8
Assuming the Sahara G3 can reach speeds up to 2 GHz, supporting a 200 Mhz bus.
Why not have a 2 GHz Sahara G3, 200 MHz bus PowerBook? A real pro user will know if he needs a 1 Ghz G4 or 2 Ghz G3. (also in towers?).

EDIT:
Right... I posted this right after the post above, but before reading it.
Forget it. :D

maybe all the pro programs altivec programming are designed to run on a G4, biggest one in idvd and plus apple did all that advertising about how the G4 is way more better , but now they are going back to a G3? lol I think it will just make everyone confused..

but then I would really like to see what kind on monster ibook apple can make :p
 

Abstract

macrumors Penryn
Dec 27, 2002
24,837
850
Location Location Location
Sorry I don't have time to read ALL the posts in this thread, but I think that anybody who goes to an Apple store and asks why bother with a 12" PB when the 12" iBook is faster will get a good explanation. If the potential customer buys it off the internet and never visits an Apple store, or simply lives in a country, say Canada, that doesn't have an Apple Store (yet) may miss out on the difference between a G3 and a G4. The difference may be on the Apple.com page, but its not THAT clear, and the significance isn't detailed until you start posting in forums like this, or talk to a Mac user. So yes, Apple may be screwing over sales of the 12" PB, but only for people who don't even bother to visit an Apple dealer or Apple store, which isn't too many in the grand scheme of things, since Mac users will know the difference, and any switcher has probably done his homework before making a drastic move from a Windows environment to a Mac.

And about all these iBook rumours: lets face it, anybody can predict what the next iBook update will be if they just used their heads. There are only 3 real possibilities for the next iBook update. One is the speed bump. The next is the speed bump + APExpress, and maybe built-in bluetooth, but this probably won't happen in order to differentiate the PB and iBook a bit more due to their apparent convergence. The other is all 3 items thrown together. There really aren't too many choices. Also, if a website were to say that an Apple update is coming soon, maybe in the next month, they will probably be right since they ARE due for an update anyway.

All these rumour sites probably don't really have "sources" at all, since all of the iBook rumours thus far haven't been proven or misproven --- simply requoted, or so it seems. It just seems a bit naff to even discuss the posibilities, since there aren't too many of these.
 

macrumors12345

Suspended
Mar 1, 2003
410
0
Originally posted by Snowy_River
While I doubt we'll see the 970 jump into the iBook any time soon, everything that we have heard indicates that the 130nm 970 is well suited for mobile applications. Much better suited than the G4, in fact, even in its current mobile incarnation.

Yes, it may be as well suited as the current 180 nm 7455. But to be fair you should compare the 130 nm 7457 (slated to ship in Q4...maybe around the same time as the 970, maybe a little later) to the 130 nm 970. Then the comparison is not as favorable. From the figures I have heard, the 1 Ghz 970 dissipates 19 watts, but the 1 Ghz 7457 dissipates less than 10 watts. Of course, the 970 is up to twice as powerful at equal clock speeds, but it also consumes twice as much power at equal clock speeds. Is the tradeoff worth it? Maybe, but Intel's focus on power consumption over pure speed w/the Centrino suggests that this is not the direction in which the market is heading. I for one would not object to Apple sticking with the 130 nm 7457 for the Powerbook if it means that they can ship light, efficient, and fast (but not workstation-class) laptops. My main beef with the 7457 is the limit of a 200 mhz bus speed...if it had a faster FSB then it could really give Centrino and the mobile Athlon a run for their money, but as it is it is still slightly (and unnecessarily) handicapped.

Incidentally, those who subscribe to the Megahertz Myth should PREFER that Apple stick with the G4 in the Powerbook. After all, a 1.5 Ghz 7457 may well dissipate less power than a 1 Ghz 970, but it will have a 50% higher clock speed, so it MUST be better! Of course, it won't actually be as fast, but that is a separate story....

So, I do think that we'll see 970 based PowerBooks reasonably soon, probably at about the same time as the 970 based PMs are released.

Conceivably, but don't hold your breath. Remember, it took almost 18 months for the G4 (MPC 7400/7410) to find its way into the Powerbook, and the power dissipation for that chip was lower than the power dissipation is for the 970.

Given that Intel is really pushing Centrino over P4-M, I think it would make good business sense for Apple to concentrate on getting faster G4s into the PB. They can definitely be competitive w/Centrino, especially if they get a faster bus (which admittedly probably won't happen). Switch to PPC 970 when a 90 nm version of the chip is produced, perhaps in 2004. That would probably make more sense. And of course stick with the G3 for the iBook in the mean time, but let it off its choke chain!
 

yzedf

macrumors 65816
Nov 1, 2002
1,161
0
Connecticut

Abstract

macrumors Penryn
Dec 27, 2002
24,837
850
Location Location Location
Is the 7457 even comparable to a 970, since Motorola never really intended to make chips for PC's anymore? Its just that I don't think the 7457 was ever meant to be used in a computer like a Mac, so its stats may be a bit deceiving since it's not a PC component. Or am I just way off mark. :confused:
 

macrumors12345

Suspended
Mar 1, 2003
410
0
Originally posted by Abstract
Is the 7457 even comparable to a 970, since Motorola never really intended to make chips for PC's anymore? Its just that I don't think the 7457 was ever meant to be used in a computer like a Mac, so its stats may be a bit deceiving since it's not a PC component. Or am I just way off mark. :confused:

Well, I don't think it's any more or less "meant" to be usied in a computer than the current 7455. It is fundamentally designed to be an embedded chip, not a PC chip. But in this case that is not necessarily a bad thing, because embedded chips are designed to be highly efficient (i.e. getting good performance at very low power drain), which is kind of what you want in a laptop chip! My main problem with it is the (relatively) low bus speed (maximum 200 mhz effective), but that is not necessarily a function of it being an embedded chip. After all, the MPC 8540 is entirely intended for the embedded space, and it has a 333 mhz (effective) DDR controller. Plus, unlike the G4, it's already fabbed on the 130 nm process! At the end of the day, the problem is not that the G4 is fundamentally a terrible chip, or that it's targetted at the embedded space, but that Motorola just isn't putting in that much effort (which, in the long run, is obviously a reason for Apple to migrate away from using its products...maybe someday Apple will just be using PPC chips produced by IBM).
 

CmdrLaForge

macrumors 601
Feb 26, 2003
4,635
3,117
around the world
Hi,

I checked some re-seller sites and they say that the iBook (current model) is not shipped before 04/24.

For quite some time the iBook was shipped immediatly - so I think there should be a new revision soon
 

Thanatoast

macrumors 65816
Dec 3, 2002
1,007
177
Denver
I agree with QCassidy352 that Apple should skip the G4 altogether in the ibooks. Drop the 970s in the power lines. Keep the G4s in the imacs and push them as far as they'll go. And ramp up the G3s as far as they'll go in the ibooks.

Fix the ibooks first. Someone above said that Apple's laptop comptetitors aren't apple users, they're PC users, and I agree. If a multiple gigahertz ibook will pull people into the store, then do it. If they don't buy an albook, so what? They've just purchased a 2 gig ibook, and that's one more Apple laptop and one less PC laptop.

Crippling computers only results in crappy machines. Apple's customers already know this, which is why they're not buying as much as Apple would like. PC users don't know the difference anyway, so why not cater to them a little.

If everyone here could buy a new (split the difference) 1.5 gig ibook, would they? If your options were a 900 mhz ibook or a 1 gig albook, would you buy either? Building better machines will result in more sales than in building "differentiated" machines, IMO.

I say, gimme the most power at the best price you can. I won't buy an intentionally crippled 900 mhz ibook, unless there's a big price drop. I won't buy an 1 gig albook either, because the speed/price combo isn't there (vs PC). But put out a 1.5 gig ibook, and I'd start thinking real hard...
 
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