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MacRumors
Jan 8, 2007, 03:05 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/01/08/airport-extreme-x2-and-x4/)


Among other rumors floating around the mill looking forward to tomorrow's Keynote Speech, minor details have emerged about upcoming use of 802.11n wireless networking. Found in the MacWorld Conference & Expo PI: Advanced Wireless (http://www.macworldexpo.com/live/20/events/20SFO07A/conference/tracksessions/PI:+Advanced+Wireless/QMONYA04SW8O) outlook, the description starts with:Wireless networking is about to undergo major changes, with 802.11n, or Airport Extreme X2 and X4. Apple has been rumored to be including the faster "n" soon-to-be standard (up to 600 mb/s), with recent curiosities of the protocol showing up in the latest iMac (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/09/20060924194334.shtml), MacBook Pro (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/10/20061026001358.shtml) and most recently MacBooks (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/11/20061113131824.shtml).

Readers also note the recent lack of any availability of Airport base stations on Apple's website, with a refresh to the base station rumored (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/09/20060919004150.shtml) as recently as September of 2006.

Article Link: Airport Extreme X2 and X4? (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/01/08/airport-extreme-x2-and-x4/)



pdpfilms
Jan 8, 2007, 03:07 PM
Yeah, I was wondering how they were planing on doing 802.11n with the existing Airport Extreme base stations.

But i wonder hoe X2 and X4 would differ?

~Shard~
Jan 8, 2007, 03:08 PM
It wasn't too hard to see this one coming, what with the new 802.11n standard and all, it was more just a question of when. And if that "when" is tomorrow, even better! ;) :cool:

emotion
Jan 8, 2007, 03:08 PM
Hand in hand with the iTV stuff then. And the pre-n hardware in recent machines.

pdpfilms
Jan 8, 2007, 03:09 PM
I really hope they include a user-installable 802.11n Airport card for those of us with pre-intel machines.

dnedved
Jan 8, 2007, 03:09 PM
Seems to be a requirement for the iTV product. They'll need the bandwidth to stream 1080p, and Jobs would be a sucker to introduce a TV related product in 2007 that can't handle 1080p.

I've been waiting for this more than anything else -- one more month of sucky Linksys daily crashes!!!

zuggerat
Jan 8, 2007, 03:09 PM
man i havent posted in a while, and im kinda ashamed my return to the forum coincides with quicker access to pornography posts :D

sbrhwkp3
Jan 8, 2007, 03:10 PM
Very nice. I'm excited.

R.Youden
Jan 8, 2007, 03:10 PM
I hope Apple dont shoot themselves in the foot with this and the 'iTV'. From what I can gather the iTV will require 802.11n to work effectively at high bandwidth but this will limit to people who have bought a mac within the last few months. I either hope they release a 802.11n card which is compatible with the extreme cards or they have some other fancy way of getting around it!

syklee26
Jan 8, 2007, 03:10 PM
wasn't the new iTV supposed to serve also as a wireless router? maybe it will come with Wireless N.

but the question is, would the mac owners without the new N card notice any difference with N router?

Mudbug
Jan 8, 2007, 03:10 PM
faster p0rn download is right around the corner with new airport express.

while I get this is a joke, what makes more sense is that internal networking on high-speed networks will see major speed increases over previous technology, while "surfing the net" will remain at the present speed due to the bottleneck for most users being the download bandwidth provided by their ISP's. The majority of broadband users on cable or DSL receive only 4-5 mb/s of bandwidth, which is available at full speed from even the first-round wireless products in the 802.11b genre.

curmi
Jan 8, 2007, 03:11 PM
How is X2 or X4 600 Mbps? Wouldn't that be like X12 (12*50 = 300)?

And shouldn't it be called something like Airport Ultra. :)

Digital Skunk
Jan 8, 2007, 03:11 PM
It seems to coincide with an updated preview of the iTV. It would go hand in hand with Apple stating all the things the iTV can do with wireless media transmission and all. Then Jobs will introduce the hub with which all that high quality media can be streamed back and forth.

I just hope that the cost isn't rediculous and that the base station doesn't look like some kinda fruit or anything weird.:)

balamw
Jan 8, 2007, 03:12 PM
I really hope they include a user-installable 802.11n Airport card for those of us with pre-intel machines.
Only C2D intel machines may have preN, there are plenty of us Core Duo owners that are left out in the cold too. I wish they'd just sell a cheap little box that does Ethernet to X2 or X4 (like the various bridges/gaming adapters).

How is X2 or X4 600 Mbps? Wouldn't that be like X12 (12*50 = 300)?
Do they teach arithmetic down under? 300/50=6, usually. :p

B

Peace
Jan 8, 2007, 03:13 PM
X2 is Extreme with [ 2 ports ]
X4 is Extreme with [ 4 ports ]

if ya get what I mean ;)

kalisphoenix
Jan 8, 2007, 03:13 PM
faster p0rn download is right around the corner with new airport express.

They should call it Airport Ecstatic!

Digital Skunk
Jan 8, 2007, 03:13 PM
I hope Apple dont shoot themselves in the foot with this and the 'iTV'. From what I can gather the iTV will require 802.11n to work effectively at high bandwidth but this will limit to people who have bought a mac within the last few months. I either hope they release a 802.11n card which is compatible with the extreme cards or they have some other fancy way of getting around it!

I think the current macs all have the 802.11n card installed... or so I thought. That was a big rumor after the WWDC in 05 when iTV was brought to light.

R.Youden
Jan 8, 2007, 03:14 PM
It seems to coincide with an updated preview of the iTV. It would go hand in hand with Apple stating all the things the iTV can do with wireless media transmission and all. Then Jobs will introduce the hub with which all that high quality media can be streamed back and forth.

I just hope that the cost isn't rediculous and that the base station doesn't look like some kinda fruit or anything weird.:)

Make it banana shapped and also a skype phone....

http://www.cothrun.com/gallery/albums/Misc/gmix_banana_phone.jpg

pdpfilms
Jan 8, 2007, 03:14 PM
X2 is Extreme with [ 2 ports ]
X4 is Extreme with [ 4 ports ]

if ya get what I mean ;)

Ethernet? USB? Serial? What kind are you guessing..

bigbossbmb
Jan 8, 2007, 03:14 PM
I need a new router...waiting with credit card in hand...

~Shard~
Jan 8, 2007, 03:15 PM
I'll be most interested in finding out the cost of this new Airport, as n-based routers and so forth are still relatively pricey, and whether or not n cards will be available for users with older Macs. You'd think they would have to be, otherwise Apple would be alienating the majority of its user base.

Digital Skunk
Jan 8, 2007, 03:16 PM
Make it banana shapped and also a skype phone....

Good one man ROFLMAO :D :D :D :D

Peace
Jan 8, 2007, 03:17 PM
Ethernet? USB? Serial? What kind are you guessing..

Ok..

The X2 is the Airport Extreme in your Mac.

The X4 is in the iTV..erm..MacMedia Center/Router.Yes.The iTV is also a router.

There! I said it.

Sun Baked
Jan 8, 2007, 03:17 PM
The n-based cards without the Base Stations, firmware updates, and drivers were sort of pointless and have begged "when?" for a long time.

Hopefully soon... as a verbal slip in a matter of hours.

curmi
Jan 8, 2007, 03:18 PM
Only C2D intel machines may have preN, there are plenty of us Core Duo owners that are left out in the cold too. I wish they'd just sell a cheap little box that does Ethernet to X2 or X4 (like the various bridges/gaming adapters).


Do they teach arithmetic down under? 300/50=6, usually. :p

B

:) Anyway, you know what I mean. 12*50 =600. X2 and X4 seem like odd names in that case.

I wouldn't mind something with an extra ethernet port or two. Or an Express Ultra with an ethernet out on it...

CrackedButter
Jan 8, 2007, 03:18 PM
This Macworld seems to be getting bigger and bigger and bigger, what with the amount of stuff to be updated, its getting crazy.

Lets try and see what is supposedly going to get upgraded or released:

iLife 07
iWork 07 + the spreadsheet program
iTV
Airport cards and base stations
Mac Mini
iPod Video
iPod Phone or iPod SmartPhone
12" MacBook Pro
New Cinema Displays + 17 inch model

So thats what, at least 10 rumoured pieces of hardware (1 confirmed) and at least 2 pieces of software.

Its getting beyond silly, I mean, we are not even taking into account the stuff Apple always surprises us with as well AND there have been no substantial product leaks to the run up of this event either.

Bibulous
Jan 8, 2007, 03:19 PM
I bet there will be a USB 2.0 dongle that works with all the Dell boxes out there.

pdpfilms
Jan 8, 2007, 03:20 PM
Ok..

The X2 is the Airport Extreme in your Mac.

The X4 is in the iTV..erm..MacMedia Center/Router.Yes.The iTV is also a router.

There! I said it.

Ha ha! My superior mind control tactics have worked!

bdkennedy1
Jan 8, 2007, 03:20 PM
Hmmm... I just went to Apple's web site and they're offering shipment within 24 hours.

ChrisA
Jan 8, 2007, 03:22 PM
I either hope they release a 802.11n card which is compatible with the extreme cards or they have some other fancy way of getting around it!

Some other way? Like a length of Cat 5 cable?

I suspect the iTV will work with whatever speed network you happen to have but you may not be able to get clean HD video unless you get one of the new X2 or X4 cards.

The problem with wireless is that the bandwidth is shared by all devices. So you would need a fast network if you wanted to suft the new, download a movie and watch a movie on iTV. But to do just one of those at a time, 56Mbps should work.

Macula
Jan 8, 2007, 03:22 PM
OK, so we now know one of the 2-3 hardware announcements that will be made tomorrow: New AirPorts.

The rest will be: New Mighty Mouse and new iSights.

Yes, it will be an exciting keynote.

MacsAttack
Jan 8, 2007, 03:23 PM
Apple needs to look a doing some kind of home media file server...

Would be great if they had two Airport Extream models...

X2 - Basic AE (upgrade to what went before)

X4 - AE with built in NAS. Room for two drives in a RAID 1 array (be nice if the drives were easy to replace). Web interface for admin (so it is not tied to OS X).

Macula
Jan 8, 2007, 03:30 PM
I just read that Steve has invited all of his best friends to the keynote.
(http://blog.wired.com/cultofmac/2007/01/rumor_jobs_invi.html (blog.wired.com/cultofmac/2007/01/rumor_jobs_invi.html))

I bet they will be thrilled to hear about this.

slu
Jan 8, 2007, 03:31 PM
I really hope they include a user-installable 802.11n Airport card for those of us with pre-intel machines.

I came in here to say the exact same thing, but I would bet we would have to settle for a crappy external USB option though. :(

Digital Skunk
Jan 8, 2007, 03:32 PM
Apple will have to unveil the replacement for the stand-alone iSight during this event. So I would hope anyway :) They discontinued the original one (which was getting a bit too old anyway) so I would hope they would introduce a better affordable and more interesting one tomorrow.

KindredMAC
Jan 8, 2007, 03:32 PM
OK, so we now know one of the 2-3 hardware announcements that will be made tomorrow: New AirPorts.

The rest will be: New Mighty Mouse and new iSights.

Yes, it will be an exciting keynote.

Where in the hell did you get a new mighty mouse from????????

There is nothing wrong with the current wireless one. Granted, the wired one has some glitchiness but I think Apple is trying to move us to a strictly wireless set up. Especially if iTV can do such things as web browsing, etc...

xlosltove777
Jan 8, 2007, 03:34 PM
If Apple does realease a 802.11n device I would assume they'd offer some sort of USB Airport which isn't unheard of. On the PC side those that have wireless either get the PCI version installed or use a usb device to go wireless. If the speed is 600mb/s it would be a slight disadvantage to use USB 2.0 but still better than 802.11g.

KindredMAC
Jan 8, 2007, 03:34 PM
Apple will have to unveil the replacement for the stand-alone iSight during this event. So I would hope anyway :) They discontinued the original one (which was getting a bit too old anyway) so I would hope they would introduce a better affordable and more interesting one tomorrow.

And to think... the current Airport Extremes have been out LONGER than the iSights....

twoodcc
Jan 8, 2007, 03:36 PM
It wasn't too hard to see this one coming, what with the new 802.11n standard and all, it was more just a question of when. And if that "when" is tomorrow, even better! ;) :cool:

yes, much better :)

hooch
Jan 8, 2007, 03:37 PM
I've been waiting for this more than anything else -- one more month of sucky Linksys daily crashes!!!

That makes two of us. Resetting linksys is getting old and I have been waiting for this refresh for months. This is definately the refresh I have been waiting for the most and I hope they reduce the price!!

Macula
Jan 8, 2007, 03:44 PM
So thats what, at least 10 rumoured pieces of hardware (1 confirmed) and at least 2 pieces of software. Its getting beyond silly, I mean, we are not even taking into account the stuff Apple always surprises us with as well AND there have been no substantial product leaks to the run up of this event either.

I hope that the lack of leaks is not due to a lack of products to leak.

donlphi
Jan 8, 2007, 03:45 PM
I'm sure older desktop computers like my 933mhz G4 (Quicksilver) will be able to find a Wireless N card from Belkin or Linksys. The CES has already shown about 4 companies that have introduced wireless N routers and cards. Same thing I did when the original airport card was gone.

Users with older macs will find a solution... we always do.

Can't wait... can't wait...

donlphi
Jan 8, 2007, 03:51 PM
oh...

Isn't anybody worried that the new displays will have built in iSight cameras? That will be terrible. I'm hoping they stopped selling the old ones because they have a wireless, and more compact solution. If I have a new apple monitor mounted on my wall, it may not be positioned correctly for my height. NOT A GOOD RUMOR... keep the prayers coming for no pre-installed iSight cameras in the new displays.

Sean7512
Jan 8, 2007, 03:53 PM
Whatever is released tomorrow, I can't wait!! I actually hope that nothing cool comes out, because I am a poor college student, haha. It is still exciting...

nodabs
Jan 8, 2007, 03:53 PM
Woo hoo! This was the one thing i've been holding out for that i actually NEED... (i don't need the preN speed, but i do need a new wireless router!)

That'll be the first thing i pick up if it's released... now the question is, what else will i be ordering with it that i DON'T need???? :D

Porchland
Jan 8, 2007, 03:53 PM
This Macworld seems to be getting bigger and bigger and bigger, what with the amount of stuff to be updated, its getting crazy.

Lets try and see what is supposedly going to get upgraded or released:

iLife 07
iWork 07 + the spreadsheet program
iTV
Airport cards and base stations
Mac Mini
iPod Video
iPod Phone or iPod SmartPhone
12" MacBook Pro
New Cinema Displays + 17 inch model

So thats what, at least 10 rumoured pieces of hardware (1 confirmed) and at least 2 pieces of software.

Its getting beyond silly, I mean, we are not even taking into account the stuff Apple always surprises us with as well AND there have been no substantial product leaks to the run up of this event either.

With some of the analysts' reports saying the phone may not be market ready, I'm wondering if we're going to get something more like:

* iLife/iWork
* Mac refreshes
* Airport refreshes
* iTV (and lots of it)
* movie studio announcements (WB, Paramount)
* preview of the phone (to appease the analysts) with a target date in March (so they can beat it in February)
* preview of Leopard with estimated ship date in June (so they can beat in in April and congratulate themselves at WWDC)

and One More Thing...

* the all new iPod with widescreen body and touch UI.
* also, The Beatles.

Just a hunch on that last one.

Eraserhead
Jan 8, 2007, 03:53 PM
This Macworld seems to be getting bigger and bigger and bigger, what with the amount of stuff to be updated, its getting crazy.

Lets try and see what is supposedly going to get upgraded or released:

iLife 07
iWork 07 + the spreadsheet program
iTV
Airport cards and base stations
Mac Mini
iPod Video
iPod Phone AND iPod SmartPhone
12" MacBook Pro
New Cinema Displays + 17 inch model

So thats what, at least 10 rumoured pieces of hardware (1 confirmed) and at least 2 pieces of software.

Its getting beyond silly, I mean, we are not even taking into account the stuff Apple always surprises us with as well AND there have been no substantial product leaks to the run up of this event either.

And I expect all of it or I'll run home crying :rolleyes:

OK, so we now know one of the 2-3 hardware announcements that will be made tomorrow: New AirPorts.

The rest will be: New Mighty Mouse and new iSights.

Yes, it will be an exciting keynote.

I think Airport could be a silent upgrade and not really mentioned.

EDIT I was right :p

On the mighty mouse, yes it isn't great, but Apple have never really made great mice at least since the hockey puck in 1998.

longofest
Jan 8, 2007, 03:53 PM
Just FYI: This is the bio (http://www.macworldexpo.com/live/20/events/20SFO07A/conference/bio//CMONYA00BAHH) on the speaker.

Bill Wiecking
Education Manager, Volcano Wireless.

Bill Wiecking has been a science teacher as far back as he can remember, but at least for the last 19 years in both public and private schools in Hawaii. He now works as the Education/Outreach Manager for the Maui Supercomputer on Maui, where he has been working with the schools in Hawaii to develop solutions for wireless networking, digital media and network security. Bill's latest projects include wireless access for field teams 26 miles out, and streaming video from unattended sites studying endangered species in Hawaii. He lives on the Big Island of Hawaii and commutes to the other islands for work. www.workingwireless.net


I have no idea why the description of his talk says Airport Extreme X2/X4, but I doubt he has any inside info on Apple's stuff.

That being said, it would make sense for Apple to update their Airport products tomorrow. We shall wait and see.

mrfrosty
Jan 8, 2007, 03:57 PM
I'm would not get too excited about this .....as far as i know 802.11n is still actually in draft with the final approval not actually expected until April 2008.

Having said that i'm sure a new piece of firmware will upgrade anything to the "proper" standard once it is ratified :-)

geerlingguy
Jan 8, 2007, 03:57 PM
Where in the hell did you get a new mighty mouse from????????

There is nothing wrong with the current wireless one. Granted, the wired one has some glitchiness but I think Apple is trying to move us to a strictly wireless set up. Especially if iTV can do such things as web browsing, etc...

There will always be a wired option... even if it isn't the standard.

Interference issues aside, not everyone has a steady supply of AA batteries, and there are tons of people who don't want to worry about signal strength, battery power, charging, etc.

Except for a computer like the Mac mini (which is supposed to symbolize elegant simplicity... and a tiny form factor), I don't expect Apple would ever take away wired ports for networking and peripherals from any of their computers.

Apple might stop selling wired mice and keyboards, though, as I know very few people who have ever bought one (the mighty mouse isn't that amazing... but the wireless one is sort of cool). I know quite a few people who have purchased the wireless keyboard and/or mouse, though.

Squonk
Jan 8, 2007, 03:58 PM
and One More Thing...

* the all new iPod with widescreen body and touch UI.
* also, The Beatles.

Just a hunch on that last one.

I had forgotten about The Beatles angle for MacWorld! I'll see your hunch!!! :D

rpchan
Jan 8, 2007, 03:59 PM
In the link to the summary of the meeting. what is with the 40 miles for wireless. I assume this is something for the future or is apple going to blow our minds?

I just dont keep up alot with wireless tech. I might be stupid about this.

in addition

I don't want an "iphone". I want a newton for a new millennium.

okay I do want an "iphone"

longofest
Jan 8, 2007, 04:02 PM
In the link to the summary of the meeting. what is with the 40 miles for wireless. I assume this is something for the future or is apple going to blow our minds?

Think WiMAX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WiMAX)

ready2switch
Jan 8, 2007, 04:13 PM
A new Airport is actually pretty exciting to me. I will be in the market for a new wireless router with print server and was on track to get the Airport Express, but for it's aging technology. :D

ClimbingTheLog
Jan 8, 2007, 04:17 PM
If you have 10.4.8, do:

man apple80211

to see some bits about the 802.11n features that will be there. No binary though, bah.

Rend It
Jan 8, 2007, 04:17 PM
Based on a quick read of this,

http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/802dot112/chapter/ch15.pdf

it seems that the X2 and X4 monikers refer to whether the channels are 20 MHz (legacy 802.11) or 40 MHz wide. There are two main draft approaches to 802.11n: WWiSE or TGnSync. Although Apple may not be taking sides yet, I'd guess they are with the TGnSync camp, as this group is pushing for the use of 802.11n as a way to stream HDTV or DVD content. Also, Intel is part of this consortium.

Anyhow, with 20 MHz channels both drafts achieve top speeds around 135/140 Mbps, which is a little over 2X the speed of 802.11g (54 Mbps, ignoring the turbo stuff). However, if the channels are 40 MHz wide, then bandwidth effectively doubles and top speeds are up around 270/315 Mbps. 270/135 = 2, justifying the X4 moniker.

rendit

kwikdeth
Jan 8, 2007, 04:19 PM
i think the solution for non-11n devices is simple: the new airport base station will have gigabit ports with an 11n card which allows you to share the wireless connection and keep the bandwidth of 11n... this has been possible with all the prior base-stations (albeit with 100base and 11g) and would make an easy 11n bridge for older machines.

Cinch
Jan 8, 2007, 04:20 PM
I know this is slightly off topic, but in order for iTV to succeed it has to do better than TiVo and/or NetFlix/movie on demand (cable company). I don't think iTV will make a big debut. I think it will be up to users to decide on how best to use it, which is to say that it has a tremendous obstacle to overcome.

Cinch

anastasis
Jan 8, 2007, 04:23 PM
.. and the MacBook Pros, MacBooks and iMac's with Core 2's in them have 802.11n draft cards in them, right?

vader26
Jan 8, 2007, 04:27 PM
.. and the MacBook Pros, MacBooks and iMac's with Core 2's in them have 802.11n draft cards in them, right?

right.

SiliconAddict
Jan 8, 2007, 04:28 PM
Although Apple may not be taking sides yet, I'd guess they are with the TGnSync camp, as this group is pushing for the use of 802.11n as a way to stream HDTV or DVD content. Also, Intel is part of this consortium.




They are probably siding with whatever Intel is backing. This spring Intel will be releasing their new Centrino Pro chipset that will, for the first time, have 802.11N as part of its spec. $10 says what is in the Pre-N iMacs, MBP, MB, and Mac Pros match whatever intel is releasing.
Vendors are sick of waiting around for a final standard to be released. Esp now that there is a new, more urgent, focus on getting battery standards up to snuff.

PS- Intel announced the new Quad Core chips today http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070108-8572.html One day before Jobs keynote. Chance? I think not. :D

mrmma
Jan 8, 2007, 04:33 PM
I was expecting some sort of update like this. I'm on the fence as to whether the iTV will be a separate entity from the updated Airports or whether a TV server will be part of the Airport package (e.g. print server, etc...). Some would prefer not having to have ethernet routed near their tv out of convenience, but I think that the ubiquity of both cable and phone jacks (and thus broadband modems) near entertainment centers makes it an attractive placement of a wireless media server for a home.

I've been putting off upgrading our home network until Apple updates the Airports so I'm hoping for one or the other of the above possibilities.

-hh
Jan 8, 2007, 04:37 PM
This Macworld seems to be getting bigger and bigger and bigger, what with the amount of stuff to be updated, its getting crazy.

Lets try and see what is supposedly going to get upgraded or released:

iLife 07
iWork 07 + the spreadsheet program
iTV
Airport cards and base stations
Mac Mini
iPod Video
iPod Phone or iPod SmartPhone
12" MacBook Pro
New Cinema Displays + 17 inch model
...
Its getting beyond silly, I mean, we are not even taking into account the stuff Apple always surprises us with...


If you want to over-excite yourself...

Go to the "Deals / Clearance" section on the Apple Store page and look at all of the stuff that's currently listed as available under refurbs...

15" MBP - Core Duo
17" MBP - Core Duo
13" MP white (1.83GHz) - Core Duo
13" MP white (2.0 GHz) - Core Duo
12" PM G4 (Combo & Super)
15" PM G4 (Combo & Super)
17" PM G4 (Super)
12" iBook G4 (Combo)
14" iBook G4 (Super)

17" iMac (1.83GHz Core Duo)
17" iMac (2.0 GHz Core 2 Duo)
24" iMac (2.1 GHz Core 2 Duo)
Mini (1.66 & 1.83GHz)
MacPro Quad (2.66 & 3.0)
PowerMac G5 (DP 2.0, DP 2.3, & Quad 2.5GHz)

Plus...

20" & 30" display (23" is missing)
Airport Extreme Card
Bluetooth Keyboard
buncha iPod stuff (next tab)


Which on first glance seems to be a heck of a lotta stuff to all be available all at the same time. At closer inspection, none of the laptops are the Core 2 Duo versions, so its probably a fairly safe bet that they're not going to be touched. But I'd be inclined to say that the high end desktop in particular is targeted; don't know if I want to say "Year of the Desktop", but with the intro of iTV, some similar word - "Table top", etc.

A possible play on words might be to crossmorph "Digital Hub" into "Reinventing the Digital Wheel".(TM)


-hh

DavoMrMac
Jan 8, 2007, 04:43 PM
802.11n Airport Extreme, this seems like a pretty sound expectation. Something that properly supports what can be found in the latest Mac portables. Well rumoured and probably predicted.

miketcool
Jan 8, 2007, 04:43 PM
I should know this, but as I sit in a CAD class I have to retake (program restructure from when I first took it 2 years ago, stupid requirments...), how upgradable are the Core Duo MBPs? I remember the day you could crack open a nice aluminum laptop and upgrade the wireless card. I am assuming this is no longer a choice, but if anyone knows give me a holla.

Also the x2 and x4 is a channel config. You can make usage of multiple airport channels for higher bandwidth, thats a crazy idea if they were to ever been in the 40 hz range.

miketcool
Jan 8, 2007, 04:48 PM
I should know this, but how upgradable are the Core Duo MBPs?

http://www.ifixit.com/cart/catalog/product_1855_MacBook_Pro_15_Airport_Card.html

Solved my own problems, hopefully well see an N card soon. Or at least a x2, x4 expresscard 34 option.

Rend It
Jan 8, 2007, 04:53 PM
Also the x2 and x4 is a channel config. You can make usage of multiple airport channels for higher bandwidth, thats a crazy idea if they were to ever been in the 40 hz range.

If by multiple Airport channels, you mean multiple spatial streams, this may or may not result in double the throughput. MIMO transmission is highly beneficial only when there is significant multipath interference. However, doubling the bandwidth from 20 to 40 MHz will double throughput in just about any environment.

See the link in my previous post (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=3223411#post3223411).

rendit

williedigital
Jan 8, 2007, 04:54 PM
why is faster networking stuff exciting for most consumers? It frankly isn't. Even on my G network, you can easily stream divx/h264 video as long as it isn't HD. Hell, even then it's not so stuttery as long as it's encoded in h264. But that's besides the point. The only thing that 99% of people even use a wireless network for is to surf the internet, and as someone has mentioned, that isn't improved at all by this. They might sell some units, but a $400 router that doesn't add much functionality isn't gonna move a lot of units.

CrackedButter
Jan 8, 2007, 05:01 PM
And I expect all of it or I'll run home crying :rolleyes:



I think Airport could be a silent upgrade and not really mentioned.

On the mighty mouse, yes it isn't great, but Apple have never really made great mice at least since the hockey puck in 1998.

From what is known about Steve Jobs, he likes to release 1 product of a particular type so as to avoid confusion amoungst customers, then release the other a few months later. Just like with the original iMac and I've actually heard the rumours say the same thing when discussing this phone.

Hattig
Jan 8, 2007, 05:07 PM
An 802.11n router, with two or four GigE ports even, should not be costing more than $100 at the point of sale. It's probably a single chip solution! The current Airport is overpriced and needs rebooting every month - something my nice reliable Linksys at home has never required.

The problem with wireless is that unless you have perfect reception you will connect at a far lower speed than the figure on the box. For example you most likely connect at 11mbps or 22mbps on a 54mbps wireless network (which is okay for most things, and the network is shared anyway). You can stream compressed HD video at 22mbps - not Bluray or HDDVD quality HD though, only CATV HD quality. 802.11n will mean more connections at >>22mbps which will aid in streaming greatly, even in larger houses with many barriers and multiple wireless clients contending for the bandwidth.

cheunghy
Jan 8, 2007, 05:07 PM
Unless Apple changes the layout on their homepage, the current homepage can only hold at most 5 announcements (7 for MWSF 2006), INCLUDING a link for the keynote stream.

But like most of you , I prefer more... :D

Carniphage
Jan 8, 2007, 05:17 PM
I know this is slightly off topic, but in order for iTV to succeed it has to do better than TiVo and/or NetFlix/movie on demand (cable company). I don't think iTV will make a big debut. I think it will be up to users to decide on how best to use it, which is to say that it has a tremendous obstacle to overcome.

Cinch

Despite the fondness that everyone has for the TiVo and PVRs. They are not a massive commercial success. For Apple to truly succeed, it has to go after a much more challenging target. It is competing with cable and satellite television distribution and putting them up against internet download.

I am not certain that pay-per-broadcast television, which cuts out the middle men of advertisers and networks is going to take-off like a rocket. But I just like the idea that direct funding will improve the quality and diversity of the type of television programming being produced.

C.

balamw
Jan 8, 2007, 05:19 PM
Unless Apple changes the layout on their homepage, the current homepage can only hold at most 5 announcements (7 for MWSF 2006), INCLUDING a link for the keynote stream.

But like most of you , I prefer more... :D

By that logic the iTunes store only has room for three banner items at the top of the store home page. Since they cycle in time, many more combinations are possible....

Who says they need to be static?

B

steve_hill4
Jan 8, 2007, 05:42 PM
If you want to over-excite yourself...

Go to the "Deals / Clearance" section on the Apple Store page and look at all of the stuff that's currently listed as available under refurbs...

15" MBP - Core Duo
17" MBP - Core Duo
13" MP white (1.83GHz) - Core Duo
13" MP white (2.0 GHz) - Core Duo
12" PM G4 (Combo & Super)
15" PM G4 (Combo & Super)
17" PM G4 (Super)
12" iBook G4 (Combo)
14" iBook G4 (Super)

17" iMac (1.83GHz Core Duo)
17" iMac (2.0 GHz Core 2 Duo)
24" iMac (2.1 GHz Core 2 Duo)
Mini (1.66 & 1.83GHz)
MacPro Quad (2.66 & 3.0)
PowerMac G5 (DP 2.0, DP 2.3, & Quad 2.5GHz)

Plus...

20" & 30" display (23" is missing)
Airport Extreme Card
Bluetooth Keyboard
buncha iPod stuff (next tab)


Which on first glance seems to be a heck of a lotta stuff to all be available all at the same time. At closer inspection, none of the laptops are the Core 2 Duo versions, so its probably a fairly safe bet that they're not going to be touched. But I'd be inclined to say that the high end desktop in particular is targeted; don't know if I want to say "Year of the Desktop", but with the intro of iTV, some similar word - "Table top", etc.

A possible play on words might be to crossmorph "Digital Hub" into "Reinventing the Digital Wheel".(TM)


-hh

I think we started to see C2D iMac refurbs within a month of them starting to ship.

Sorry to burst any bubble, but I don't think this is evidence of any iMac upgrade tomorrow. I still expect them to hold out a little longer, go Leopard and Santa Rosa at the same time and possibly bring out a Quad option/one stock model a short time after the mobile C2 goes quad.

brepublican
Jan 8, 2007, 05:48 PM
faster p0rn download is right around the corner with new airport express.

Dang. And I was just gonna buy a basestation last week Friday but then decided to hold off. Phew!

uNext
Jan 8, 2007, 06:02 PM
**** i just bought a airport extreme yesterday and im loving the wirless music functin.

Luckily i went to my favorite computer store COMPUSA and their return policy is one of the best.

Cant wait tomorrow is not coming fast enough.

mahonmeister
Jan 8, 2007, 06:24 PM
I sure hope they release new routers. Hopefully at a more competitive price too. I've gone through a few routers is the last month trying to find a reliable one.

To the person who suggested that iTV will also be a wireless router, consider this: If iTV is also a router, you would have to route a ethernet cable to it from your modem, defeating the purpose of wirelessly streaming media to iTV from your Mac/PC. I am willing to bet that iTV will not be a router. You want to put money on it?;)

We will find out soon!

Peace
Jan 8, 2007, 06:26 PM
I sure hope they release new routers. Hopefully at a more competitive price too. I've gone through a few routers is the last month trying to find a reliable one.

To the person who suggested that iTV will also be a wireless router, consider this: If iTV is also a router, you would have to route a ethernet cable to it from your modem, defeating the purpose of wirelessly streaming media to iTV from your Mac/PC. I am willing to bet that iTV will not be a router. You want to put money on it?;)

We will find out soon!

I said it.

It's a wireless router.WDS ?

Hello ? :p

themacman
Jan 8, 2007, 06:32 PM
I really hope they include a user-installable 802.11n Airport card for those of us with pre-intel machines.
yes that will be very important. Did apple do that in the past when upgrading to new wireless standards?

AppleIntelRock
Jan 8, 2007, 06:43 PM
yawn. whatever. can we please get some more exciting rumors. it isn't like 802.11n is something nobody has heard of yet :rolleyes:

Peace
Jan 8, 2007, 06:45 PM
To put this more clearly since it's out.

The X2 replaces the Airport Extreme card that goes in your Mac.
Folks with Core2 Duo iMacs,MacBook Pro's and MacPro's don't need to worry.A firmware update makes it .n. or X2.
The X4 replaces the Airtunes/Airport Base station.Difference is it has Ethernet/HDMI/Component Video/Toslink interface/USB and mini-jack for stereo.And it's the MacMedia Center aka iTV.This being the X4 because it needs more bandwidth/range to accommodate all the peripheral devices that pass through it.
I'm guessing there will be a dongle from Apple for the "pre-pre-n" Macs like the rev A MacBook.

just wild,rampant,insane,16 hours till keynote speculation mind you :p

Narayan7
Jan 8, 2007, 06:45 PM
It would be cool if the airport extremes have a firewire port to plug in external storage devices so you could keep all your drives in one place away from your computer and still have access to all the files :)

KindredMAC
Jan 8, 2007, 06:45 PM
**** i just bought a airport extreme yesterday and im loving the wirless music functin.

Luckily i went to my favorite computer store COMPUSA and their return policy is one of the best.

Cant wait tomorrow is not coming fast enough.

CompUSA is a tool. I bought my very first PowerMac there in the mid 90's and what a frickin horrible experience I had. Not one person in the Mac Dept knew a damn thing. Before the one in Syracuse closed this past fall, all I would buy there was software that the Apple Store upstairs might not have had.

longofest
Jan 8, 2007, 06:48 PM
$10 says what is in the Pre-N iMacs, MBP, MB, and Mac Pros match whatever intel is releasing.

Thats just the thing. Apple has released models with BOTH chipsets. The iMac has a Broadcom chipset, whereas the MacBook and MacBook Pro have Atheros chipsets. Two different sides of the aisle.

Peace
Jan 8, 2007, 06:52 PM
Thats just the thing. Apple has released models with BOTH chipsets. The iMac has a Broadcom chipset, whereas the MacBook and MacBook Pro have Atheros chipsets. Two different sides of the aisle.

you're right longofest but atheros and broadcom adhere to the same WiMax specs that Intel has.

Oh ya..

One More Thing..hehehehe

Apple's Data Center and new iTunes servers went live yesterday.

uNext
Jan 8, 2007, 07:01 PM
CompUSA is a tool. I bought my very first PowerMac there in the mid 90's and what a frickin horrible experience I had. Not one person in the Mac Dept knew a damn thing. Before the one in Syracuse closed this past fall, all I would buy there was software that the Apple Store upstairs might not have had.


Yeah your right their staff have no clue about anything
but their return policy is the best.

I buy computer stuff there a lot. Anything i want they always have
so thats why i am a loyal customer, luckily i know what i want and what i need. But i remember asking a question to see if they had mini stereo jacks (2.5) the girl was stuttering like if i asked her who killed kennedy and she knew the answer it was embarrassing for her and compusa but hey.

I am not your average end user so its ok as long as they have it i'm cool.

for everything else i prefer CIRCUIT-CITY.

Swinny
Jan 8, 2007, 07:05 PM
I think X2 and X4 just relate to streamlining the name of the base-stations available.

X2 will be the equivalent of the current Airport Express - plug-in, 2 Ethernet ports, USB port, stereo-out port.

X4 will be the equivalent of the current Airport Extreme Base-station - seperate unit, 4 Ethernet ports, 2 USB ports and adding stereo-out to match the Express's streaming capabilities.

Makes perfect sense...most people will only need the X2 variant, and those with small offices etc and a few machines on a wired network will choose the X4 version.

Peel
Jan 8, 2007, 07:06 PM
An 802.11n router, with two or four GigE ports even, should not be costing more than $100 at the point of sale. It's probably a single chip solution! The current Airport is overpriced and needs rebooting every month - something my nice reliable Linksys at home has never required.

The problem with wireless is that unless you have perfect reception you will connect at a far lower speed than the figure on the box. For example you most likely connect at 11mbps or 22mbps on a 54mbps wireless network (which is okay for most things, and the network is shared anyway). You can stream compressed HD video at 22mbps - not Bluray or HDDVD quality HD though, only CATV HD quality. 802.11n will mean more connections at >>22mbps which will aid in streaming greatly, even in larger houses with many barriers and multiple wireless clients contending for the bandwidth.

True, I have a Linksys WRT300N router that supports MIMO, and both 20 and 40MHz channels. I got it for $85 on special at Fry's. With my previous G router, my connection from my living room TiVo to thge router next to my iMac in the home office was never more than 30%. With the MIMO router I routinely get 80%, and have even seen 96%. None of my equipment has N cards in it, so this is all at G speeds.

Rend It
Jan 8, 2007, 07:19 PM
To put this more clearly since it's out.

The X2 replaces the Airport Extreme card that goes in your Mac.
Folks with Core2 Duo iMacs,MacBook Pro's and MacPro's don't need to worry.A firmware update makes it .n. or X2.
The X4 replaces the Airtunes/Airport Base station.Difference is it has Ethernet/HDMI/Component Video/Toslink interface/USB and mini-jack for stereo.And it's the MacMedia Center aka iTV.This being the X4 because it needs more bandwidth/range to accommodate all the peripheral devices that pass through it.
I'm guessing there will be a dongle from Apple for the "pre-pre-n" Macs like the rev A MacBook.

just wild,rampant,insane,16 hours till keynote speculation mind you :p

I think X2 and X4 just relate to streamlining the name of the base-stations available.

X2 will be the equivalent of the current Airport Express - plug-in, 2 Ethernet ports, USB port, stereo-out port.

X4 will be the equivalent of the current Airport Extreme Base-station - seperate unit, 4 Ethernet ports, 2 USB ports and adding stereo-out to match the Express's streaming capabilities.

Makes perfect sense...most people will only need the X2 variant, and those with small offices etc and a few machines on a wired network will choose the X4 version.

People! Come on. Read the first post in this thread. The description is referring to a wireless protocol, not a new product from Apple. My PB G4 is equipped with "Airport Extreme", but I don't have an Airport base station. For those that forgot, here is what the description says,

Wireless networking is about to undergo major changes, with 802.11n, or Airport Extreme X2 and X4.

Note that Apple's name for the wireless communications protocol 802.11n will be "Airport Extreme X2 and X4".

rendit

Peel
Jan 8, 2007, 07:20 PM
And to think... the current Airport Extremes have been out LONGER than the iSights....

I think that's the answer! For the older machines without N cards, you can buy a combo iSight/Wireless-N in one unit. It's the perfect combination, as it places the wireless antenna up high, for better range/less interferance to the router, and you only have one Firewire cord to plug in for both.

voicegy
Jan 8, 2007, 07:30 PM
Make it banana shapped and also a skype phone....

You mean like this bad boy from B & O? ;)

Although I'm not holding my breath for some kind of phone from Apple come Tuesday morning, I WOULD be thrilled to discover that through an update my new 24-inch iMac could take advantage of a supposed "n" card already installed and ready. Currently I use the iMac to stream music to 4 Express units, so I have wireless music throughout the house. If this would increase the RANGE (nevermind the speed) that would be a Godsend, as I have slight issues sometimes with my further-away AirPort Express devices.

Bring it on, Steve. This one has as much excitement and buzz as 2002 - boy, those were the days. :D

dernhelm
Jan 8, 2007, 07:31 PM
This would be nice. My Linksys "G" is just about dead. Would be nice to replace it with an Apple product...

Chef Medeski
Jan 8, 2007, 08:01 PM
why is faster networking stuff exciting for most consumers? It frankly isn't. Even on my G network, you can easily stream divx/h264 video as long as it isn't HD. Hell, even then it's not so stuttery as long as it's encoded in h264. But that's besides the point. The only thing that 99% of people even use a wireless network for is to surf the internet, and as someone has mentioned, that isn't improved at all by this. They might sell some units, but a $400 router that doesn't add much functionality isn't gonna move a lot of units.

Personally while the bumped speed is nice. I only use wi-fi besides internet for music and when your transfering gigs its nice the speed. But thats not often. More importantly is the increased distance. Nearly 5 times the radius is claimed, meaning maybe about 3. WHICH IS STILL AMAZING. Right now most houses have a problem getting coverage in the whole house, not anymore. On top of that going downtown will allow you to pick up a lot more signals since right now you can usually find one or two open channels anywhere u go, but the signal can be week.

Xyl
Jan 8, 2007, 08:12 PM
Dammit. Airport Extreme X2? Airport Extreme X4? I was hoping for an Airport Extreme Plus Limited Special Anniversary Edition. :p

ChrisA
Jan 8, 2007, 08:13 PM
I
To the person who suggested that iTV will also be a wireless router, consider this: If iTV is also a router, you would have to route a ethernet cable to it from your modem, defeating the purpose of wirelessly streaming media to iTV from your Mac/PC. I am willing to bet that iTV will not be a router. You want to put money on it?;)


ANY machine that has two network interfaces and runs a UNIX-like OS can be a router. In fact by default the BSD kernel will route packets. Typically you have to disable this if you don't want it. So if the iTV has both an RJ45 port and a wireless interface and it runs a stripped down version of Mac OS it very well could route packets. But will it? I don't know but it would be a cool feature to have that would cost Apple nothing.

About running the wire from the modem to the iTV. If your internet connection is from the Cable TV company then you would only need a very short wire. Many people already have cable modems very close to where the iTV box would be installed. So YES i expect the iTV box might make a nice router. Like I said, it would cost Apple nothing to add this feature

Chef Medeski
Jan 8, 2007, 08:15 PM
I think that's the answer! For the older machines without N cards, you can buy a combo iSight/Wireless-N in one unit. It's the perfect combination, as it places the wireless antenna up high, for better range/less interferance to the router, and you only have one Firewire cord to plug in for both.

Thats a nice idea. Im sure though not a lot of people would want to pay a $200 pricetag for a camera since it comes with wireless they dont want. I definetly believe they should make such a product, just make sure its not your sole product. Maybe a USB key. And a seperate smaller camera for laptops.

aswitcher
Jan 8, 2007, 08:17 PM
Based on a quick read of this,

http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/802dot112/chapter/ch15.pdf

it seems that the X2 and X4 monikers refer to whether the channels are 20 MHz (legacy 802.11) or 40 MHz wide. There are two main draft approaches to 802.11n: WWiSE or TGnSync. Although Apple may not be taking sides yet, I'd guess they are with the TGnSync camp, as this group is pushing for the use of 802.11n as a way to stream HDTV or DVD content. Also, Intel is part of this consortium.

Anyhow, with 20 MHz channels both drafts achieve top speeds around 135/140 Mbps, which is a little over 2X the speed of 802.11g (54 Mbps, ignoring the turbo stuff). However, if the channels are 40 MHz wide, then bandwidth effectively doubles and top speeds are up around 270/315 Mbps. 270/135 = 2, justifying the X4 moniker.

rendit

Thanks. This makes a lot of sense.

I checked wikipedia but am still a bit fuzzy about the range N has over G. Wiki says 50m versus 30m for G, which sounds like almost a doubling of range. Anyone know if this range advantage is likely to be realised with Apple's configuration?

EagerDragon
Jan 8, 2007, 08:29 PM
Make it banana shapped and also a skype phone....

http://www.cothrun.com/gallery/albums/Misc/gmix_banana_phone.jpg

Love it, hope I can sleep tonight, the wait is killing me.

EagerDragon
Jan 8, 2007, 08:33 PM
Can't wait for the powerbook G6 using the 5 ghz that IBM just anounced, LOL.
Maybe tomorrow

mahonmeister
Jan 8, 2007, 11:07 PM
I said it.

It's a wireless router.WDS ?

Hello ? :p

Oh, Wireless distribution system (thanks wikipedia:p ). I thought you meant a standard wireless router. I guess that makes more sense. Is this something that Apple stated during the demo?

I hope I didn't come off as a jerk in my previous post.:o

I guess I'm still a noob at some of this technical stuff.

Rocketman
Jan 8, 2007, 11:08 PM
you're right longofest but atheros and broadcom adhere to the same WiMax specs that Intel has.

Oh ya..

One More Thing..hehehehe

Apple's Data Center and new iTunes servers went live yesterday.

This post seems to be a "scoop".

Rocketman

balamw
Jan 8, 2007, 11:46 PM
Oh, Wireless distribution system (thanks wikipedia:p ). I thought you meant a standard wireless router. I guess that makes more sense. Is this something that Apple stated during the demo?
No, but it would stand to reason since the Airport Express and Extreme already support WDS for range extension.

B

Evangelion
Jan 9, 2007, 01:51 AM
PS- Intel announced the new Quad Core chips today http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070108-8572.html One day before Jobs keynote. Chance? I think not. :D

First: They were propably released at CES, so there's no relation to MacWorld as swuch, other than the fact that CES and MacWorld take place at the same time.

Second: That quad-core CPU is a Conroe. Apple does not use Conroe. Apple uses Xeons is MacPro, and quad-Xeons were announced last year.

gerrycurl
Jan 9, 2007, 04:08 AM
is it official? if not, when will it become a standard? i hated buying pre-standard crap for 802.11g, boy was that a big mistake. firmware upgrades didn't help, i just ended up buying a 802.11g compliant card after the standard was ratified. my advice is to not buy pre-standard ****.

emotion
Jan 9, 2007, 04:15 AM
is it official? if not, when will it become a standard? i hated buying pre-standard crap for 802.11g, boy was that a big mistake. firmware upgrades didn't help, i just ended up buying a 802.11g compliant card after the standard was ratified. my advice is to not buy pre-standard ****.


Too late, there's thousands of us out here with new Apple machines equipped this way :)

SplinterCell
Jan 9, 2007, 07:45 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Among other rumors floating around the mill looking forward to tomorrow's Keynote Speech, minor details have emerged about upcoming use of 802.11n wireless networking. Found in the MacWorld Conference & Expo PI: Advanced Wireless (http://www.macworldexpo.com/live/20/events/20SFO07A/conference/tracksessions/PI:+Advanced+Wireless/QMONYA04SW8O) outlook, the description starts with: Apple has been rumored to be including the faster "n" soon-to-be standard (up to 600 mb/s), with recent curiosities of the protocol showing up in the latestiMac (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/09/20060924194334.shtml), MacBook Pro (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/10/20061026001358.shtml) and most recently MacBooks (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/11/20061113131824.shtml).

Readers also note the recent lack of any availability of Airport base stations on Apple's website, with a refresh to the base station rumored (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/09/20060919004150.shtml) as recently as September of 2006.

Hey I have one of the new cd2 macbook pro's, is there a way I can tell if I have the 802.11n wireless card pre-installed?

bagleyb
Jan 9, 2007, 01:35 PM
http://www.apple.com/airportextreme/

Wasn't announced in the keynote, but an updated one is available