Have all the people who think PCs are slow and buggy ever built one? [Archive]

caveman_uk

Jun 10, 2003, 05:23 AM

I've built all the ones I ever owned and several for other people. To be honest I never had this 'my machine crashed all the time' thing but then I was careful about housekeeping and what I installed. I've had a few driver conflicts in my time such as between my Geforce Ti4400 an SB Live and a Via motherboard which were down to PCI latency issues (a regular user probably wouldn't have been able to fix it). Windows XP is very stable in my experience - it's the dodgy device drivers and crappy software that people put out that makes it unstable. Windows machines do seem to get more sluggish with time - perhaps it's just registry bloat or something.

I came to the mac side via Linux as I basically was bored with windows and microsoft. Now I'm here I'm very happy. I've got an ibook and a 1GHZ DP powermac which although maybe slower than the top of the range PC, is faster than my brain most of the time;) It's also a lot more FUN.

Chimaera

Jun 10, 2003, 05:40 AM

I've built all the PC's in my house and have had no problms to speak of - not counting the failure of a cooling fan in my wife's PC and me blowing a HDD, neither of which are Window's fault :)

I would suggest its because I'm careful with my installation - I keep things neatly ordered, with regular system check and optimisations, but then my wife's machine is a right state - she installs stuff all over the place and has never known the attentions of a defragger, let alone a registry optimiser, and the only time that crashed was when the cooling fan blew and the BIOS shut the system down to protect the CPU - so personally I have no idea what the hell most of the mac nazis are going on about.

Of course windows *used* to crash a lot - so did OS9 and its forbears :)

AppleMatt

Jun 10, 2003, 06:22 AM

I've built a number of PC's, and repaired even more laptops.

In my experience, if you have a clean installation and keep on top of service packs, directx etc you will have a good machine, its when you start installing non-microsoft software that things get iffy.

However I have drive images and windows installations with updates slipstreamed into them on my hard drives, so resotring isn't so much of an issue.

I agree however, that it is unfair for PC users who have never used a Mac to run them down, and vice versa.

Matt

Chimaera

Jun 10, 2003, 06:44 AM

I dunno - on my PC the only MS software is the OS and Office - everything else is done through third-party apps - I use Opera for web, Eudora for email, winampl/zoomplayer/bsplayer/winDVD for multimedia...

solvs

Jun 10, 2003, 06:55 AM

I've built and upgraded several PCs. Fixed and used manufactured PCs - Dells, Sonys, Gateways, Compaqs, HPs, Acers, etc. Out of the box, Macs are better than those. Easier to use right away, have fewer problems. In my experiance, at least. The ones I've built and upgraded have been as good as the parts. Good parts = good machine. It is fun to build-your-own.

But I've had way more problems with Windows. All version. I HATE XP. I'm running 2000 on a Franken-PC monster, but even that has problems, and I'm constantly having to upgrade software to fix things (and I still have issues). Apple's computers seem so much easier and more fun to use. Again, in my experiance. People just kinda seem to tolerate Windows.

I agree that anyone who hasn't used Windows shouldn't complain about it, just like anyone who hasn't used a Mac shouldn't complain about it. Even though they do. But most people who buy computers barely upgrade them, let alone build them from scratch. The fact that Dell can load all that crap on their OEM PCs is a testament to the crappiness of Windows.

Just for the record, anyone who's a Windows supporter shouldn't go around calling Mac lovers Nazis. (just a tip) ;)

M$ still sux.

Wardofsky

Jun 10, 2003, 07:32 AM

In terms of cheap hardware, it is essential for profit.
Companies main goal is to sell and make profit, using the least expensieve components and still allowing it to work (with certain restrictions) can mean profit.

MisterMe

Jun 10, 2003, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by Wardofsky
In terms of cheap hardware, it is essential for profit.
Companies main goal is to sell and make profit, using the least expensieve components and still allowing it to work (with certain restrictions) can mean profit. You're right if you are a stupid businessman. In the US, DaimlerChrysler's Mercedez-Benz automobiles are highly profitable. However, the Chrysler division is losing money. The key to profit is finding a market and satisfying it. If that means using butter instead of margarine, then that is what you do.

mac15

Jun 10, 2003, 07:54 AM

Originally posted by aethier
my friend builthis own, its still slow (amd athlon 1700+) and he still gets all the common errors known to peecees

aethier

those common errors would be windows loading would they? :D

vanillamike

Jun 10, 2003, 08:19 AM

I've built about 10 PCs for myself and others. True enough, I can't recall a system I built and loaded that "crashed all the time". As with everything else it comes down to maintenance. Computers run better in general when they are installed properly and made of quality part.

However, now that "the switch" is complete I can't see myself going back to a PC. Especially since my iPod matches my eMac jk :P

Mike

rhpenguin

Jun 10, 2003, 08:21 AM

I am a certified A+ technician (which really has nothing to do with anything except for making it seem as if i know what im talking about) and I do have to say i have no problems with the PC platform. If you are smart about what you do with your pc you should have no problems but its when you start installing crappy third party software that really kills the Windows platform. My last PC (before making the switch a few weeks ago :D :D :D ) was ultra stable and would only crash the odd time but only under really hardcore situations when I was driving it to its fullest, or if its been up for a few weeks. IMO both platforms has its advantages (especially with a PC and Linux!) but overall i would give the advantage to Mac for just working.

ewinemiller

Jun 10, 2003, 08:22 AM

For me it seems that my home built machines are the twitchy ones. I used to build from scratch and then decided it was no longer worth my time to work at getting them stable. I'd much rather some system integrater take the time to do all that testing.

My Dells are mostly good. I have one issue where a Dell laptop fails to wake from sleep occasionally (about once every couple of weeks), but so does my quicksilver powermac. On a Mac vs. PC competition, I'd call that one a tie. Other than that, my Dells have been problem free. My father tends to pick up HPs and Compaqs, they seems a lot more twitchy and particular, but he also installs everything under the sun on them. He's one of those "just enough knowledge to be dangerous" kind of guys.

Chimaera

Jun 10, 2003, 09:10 AM

Originally posted by solvs

Just for the record, anyone who's a Windows supporter shouldn't go around calling Mac lovers Nazis. (just a tip) ;)

For a start I'm not a windows supporter - I use and enjoy both platforms extensively (linux and unix too for that matter) - I'm of the opinion they each have their advantages and disadvantages, and secondly I'm not referring to mac lovers as Nazis - I'm talking about the extreme zealots that make up a proportion of the members of these boards.

jxyama

Jun 10, 2003, 09:18 AM

i think the point of us "dissing" wintels is that with a mac, we generally don't have to baby/take extreme care/maintain/build it in order for it to work.

i don't think it's a snobby or hypocritical thing at all to expect machines to just work, regardless of how it was built or used, etc. i would understand the argument if a PC bought from bubba's PC and lawn care emporium is sub-par in quality but to say buying from dell or compaq/hp is trouble is ridiculous. those are major vendors... i'd feel they have an obligation to provide a reliable product and if they don't... well, that's a problem with the industry, i'd say.

sparkleytone

Jun 10, 2003, 09:21 AM

i've built the last three pcs i owned. yeah it was cheaper, but in the end WAY less stable and MUCH buggier than just buying an OEM machine. yeah i kept em nice and fast, but they were all just too finicky for my taste.

Chimaera

Jun 10, 2003, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by jxyama
i think the point of us "dissing" wintels is that with a mac, we generally don't have to baby/take extreme care/maintain/build it in order for it to work.

i don't think it's a snobby or hypocritical thing at all to expect machines to just work, regardless of how it was built or used, etc. i would understand the argument if a PC bought from bubba's PC and lawn care emporium is sub-par in quality but to say buying from dell or compaq/hp is trouble is ridiculous. those are major vendors... i'd feel they have an obligation to provide a reliable product and if they don't... well, that's a problem with the industry, i'd say.

I agree - the point is I don't see this - at work I deal with people with a shocking degree of computer literacy (as in 'I can't open an application' low) and my wife is someone I would class as a typical user - her machine hasn't had a reinstall or a cleanup of any description since it was built nearly two years ago (no maintenance at all, in other words) and she's had no problems, the system is rock steady, never crashes, doesn't run particularly slow given the hardware in it (ie its no speed demon, but a fresh install wouldn't be much faster).

Fair play, I go to a lot of trouble to keep my games PC tuned, but then its tweaked to be as efficient as possible with the absolute bare minimum of CPU cycles/memory used for OS and background stuff to leave us much performance overhead as possible for games/multimedia applications, and that sort of behaviour is likely to cause more stability problems, not less, and maintaining that edge takes work, my 'work' machines aren't nearly that well looked after.

My job entails support of both macs and PCs, with OS's running from win98 and OS7 all the way up to XP and OSX, and at each stage of the game I've found the relative stability to be about the same, 98/OS7 would fall over if you looked at them funny, whereas XP/OSX are practically crashproof.

My reasoning behind building over buying OEM has nothing to do with stability but cost - I didn't see any reason to pay someone for work I'm more than capable of doing myself - thats just a waste of money.

Oh and its not like Macs don't ship with a load of useless software either - just because its useless for you doesn't make it useless, period.

tcolling

Jun 10, 2003, 09:40 AM

I have built my own PC, purchased my own PC, upgraded PC's for friends and family, purchased my own Mac, and upgraded that and am running OSX and an internal DVD burner on my 8600. I also am in the final stages of schooling as a Microsoft .NET programmer.

In my opinion, based on my own personal experience, OSX and XP are both rock solid performers, with a slight edge to OSX. But it's very unfair to say Mac vs. Windows in this situation, because what gives Apple the advantage is the fact that they own the whole soup to nuts machine, i.e. hardware and software. Microsoft only works the software end, so they are at the mercy of whichever machine the user installs it on. Apple won't even support OSX on older machines, even if they are upgraded, because they know that there may be an intermittent problem (I've experienced it).

As mentioned earlier, I think a lot of the problems has to do with the junk that people tend to put on their PC's, or the junk that gets automatically installed by coupon web pages, as an example. Windows shareware and freeware is so prevalent, and so available, that less savvy users tend to load up their hard drive with crap that hurts the system. Even the paid for stuff gets stolen and handed around. Multiple generations of stolen software can't be good for a system, either.

zuggerat

Jun 10, 2003, 09:41 AM

me and my dad built a tiger mail away computer with windows 98 on it. we built everything correctly and had it checked out with my friend who's a C++ wiz and certified tech and this thing was the worse computer ive ever layed eyes on...never worked after the second day...it's smoldering in my backyard right now...u know WWDC and all

Sabenth

Jun 10, 2003, 09:42 AM

I have bulit on last count 25 pcs used to work in a pc store got all the good bits to play with till the store closed down...

But of all of them ive bulit 4 of them for myself the most reacent one been a amd chipset system with a 1600xp 512sdram 40gig drive and a geforece 2 64ddr card windows xp home...

Ive had nothing but problems with it not because it was put together wrong or anything but the fact that the os windows just keeps corupting it gose though a stage were you make a file say in word and when you come to open it it locks the system up and i dont just mean the system says end program nope it means a complet re install of windows because i cant get back into windows with out booting the cd which of course i dont so i recomend either a cd bunner or an external HD for windows if anyone asks me what to buy ... Ive switched to mac because of linux at least in linux nothing major happens oh i did have to buy and external modem for it because i couldnt at the time compile the drivers need for my modem but now i know how and well windows hardly gets used these days ......

but wait iam using windows right now because i cant use the same net connection thats why... and reason is on this pc....

jxyama

Jun 10, 2003, 10:01 AM

of course... indiv. experiences vary. in my case, i've witnessed a few PCs just deteriorate in performance. not crash. not freeze. but deteriorate under fairly normal use, no free/sharewares.

computer is an inorganic object. it should not deteriorate, as if it's alive. i've personally come to the conclusion that it's due to windows bloat and cheapo parts. this is strictly my opinion based on my experience.

it's not apple's fault they decide to deal with both hardware and software. i personally would like to see PC manufacturers and M$ improve their coordination. it might also help if M$ would open up their code. they have way too much influence in the computing world and bad rep./history to be trusted to do the right thing on their own, IMO.

ewinemiller

Jun 10, 2003, 10:13 AM

jxyama

Jun 10, 2003, 10:29 AM

again, it's all personal experience.

i don't have any proof, so i won't re-iterate my points or expand my opinion into something "general." however, you are at a mac forum and i believe (no proof) many of us have had some kind of bad experience dealing with PCs. so my inclination is that it's natural for this forum to be slanted toward a mac being more stable...

AppleMatt

Jun 10, 2003, 11:00 AM

When I first got my PowerBook 12", I was quite dissapointed with the performance so did a Xbench to see what happened, and got around 50 each time.

Then I did a clean install and got around 70 each time.

In my case, it was well worth it!

AppleMatt

KershMan

Jun 10, 2003, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by MisterMe
You're right if you are a stupid businessman. In the US, DaimlerChrysler's Mercedez-Benz automobiles are highly profitable. However, the Chrysler division is losing money. The key to profit is finding a market and satisfying it. If that means using butter instead of margarine, then that is what you do.

I agree. I learned about a guy named Deming in college (I do not remember his first name) who was a Quality Management guru and taught a philosophy of Total Quality Management (TQM). His basic philosophy was you demand top quality from everyone in your supply chain and everyone in your manufacturing chain and you will build superior products that will sell. The Japanese jumped on the TQM bandwagon after WWII and had Deming help develop their automobile industry.

This TQM philosophy was how Toyota was able to come to the states and sell their cars in direct contention with the big 3 American auto makers. And they have done pretty darn good. People didn't mind spending a few thousand extra for a Toyota over a Ford or Dodge because of the reputation. But a few thousand on a 20K car over 5 or 6 years does not look like that much.

Apple I think takes the same approach in how the control their product. Despite their small market share, they have a core following of very loyal customers and billions of cash in the bank. Now if they can continue to make their prices comparable to high-mid range PCs, I think their market share will pick up.

Oh, and back on the original topic. I have built for myself, family, and friends about a dozen PCs in the past 5 or 6 years with either an Intel or AMD chip. Never had a real hardware problem. I picked mostly top of the line parts. Many of this systems I ran Linux on and they were rock solid.

The Windows ones were always buggy up to Win 2K and then XP. Win 2K and XP are much better, but they still have problems. The way Windows works with DLLs and drivers I think will always make this generation more buggy. There are too many shared resources and some software does not play nice with others overwriting and changing DLL files.

jxyama

Jun 10, 2003, 11:28 AM

AppleMatt:

You should have checked the energy saver option. With 12" PB, you get a Xbench score of ~50 if the CPU is set run at 533 MHz and ~70 at 867 MHz. It's possible that your re-install simply reset the energy saver option to run the CPU at 867 MHz.

yzedf

Jun 10, 2003, 11:40 AM

Anyone find it funny how stable OS X is supposed to be, yet the most common repair suggestions are "repair permissions" or "zap your PRAM." Both of which are major OS related problems (permissions especially). And what about apps that don't work nicely if the are not installed in the default location (iLife)?

I think the issues are just different from PC to Mac. Mac's have limited compatability issues, simply because there is little to work with. So most of the older driver problems (win98 mostly) aren't found in the Mac world.

Number of apps if obviously a issue for Mac's, especially OS X. 3rd party apps seem to have quality issues for both Mac and Win worlds. Of course OS X and XP deal with it better than the older versions of each OS did.

iJon

Jun 10, 2003, 12:06 PM

well i built my own pc but still choose built one for many reasons.

1. The compaq i use boots up in about 10-15 seconds from when i press the button, MY built pc boots in about a minute and lets not even get into mac boot times.

2. When compaq or dell builds a computer they put sleep sensons on the computer, so when it goes to sleep the fans and processor shut off like my mac. on my pc everything keeps going, the screen just turns off (this could also be me not doing something right)

3. when you build a pc and it breaks there is no one person to call and its very annoying. If a compaq breaks I can take it in the store and have someone authorized take a look at it.

iJon

AppleMatt

Jun 10, 2003, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by jxyama
AppleMatt:

You should have checked the energy saver option. With 12" PB, you get a Xbench score of ~50 if the CPU is set run at 533 MHz and ~70 at 867 MHz. It's possible that your re-install simply reset the energy saver option to run the CPU at 867 MHz.

No, firstly I already knew about this (and always had it set to full speed) and secondly the re-install would set it to defaults, ie slow speed on battery.

I don't know about those scores, because I have never tested with CPU energy saver on and off.

Although I appreciate the input.

AppleMatt

jxyama

Jun 10, 2003, 12:15 PM

AppleMatt:

I see... well, i'm glad your score went back up to the range where it should be.

Chimaera

Jun 10, 2003, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by iJon

1. The compaq i use boots up in about 10-15 seconds from when i press the button, MY built pc boots in about a minute and lets not even get into mac boot times.

2. When compaq or dell builds a computer they put sleep sensons on the computer, so when it goes to sleep the fans and processor shut off like my mac. on my pc everything keeps going, the screen just turns off (this could also be me not doing something right)

3. when you build a pc and it breaks there is no one person to call and its very annoying. If a compaq breaks I can take it in the store and have someone authorized take a look at it.

iJon
1, Download and run Bootvis on your PC - it optimises the bootpath of the machine, mine takes 25secs to go from a cold start to a fully loaded desktop, most of which is due to things like the RAID controller initialising. Instructions here: http://www.tweaktown.com/document.php?dType=guide&dId=324&dPage=10

2, This sounds like the power management settings in the bios aren't set right - it should turn all the way off.

3, This is true, and is a very good reason to go OEM - although I feel if you know enough to build a system, you've probably got a good enough level of knowledge to effectively troubleshoot the problem, and its a lot quicker to deal with a manufacturer than the OEM that built the machine in my experience.

iJon

Jun 10, 2003, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by Chimaera
1, Download and run Bootvis on your PC - it optimises the bootpath of the machine, mine takes 25secs to go from a cold start to a fully loaded desktop, most of which is due to things like the RAID controller initialising. Instructions here: http://www.tweaktown.com/document.php?dType=guide&dId=324&dPage=10

2, This sounds like the power management settings in the bios aren't set right - it should turn all the way off.

3, This is true, and is a very good reason to go OEM - although I feel if you know enough to build a system, you've probably got a good enough level of knowledge to effectively troubleshoot the problem, and its a lot quicker to deal with a manufacturer than the OEM that built the machine in my experience.
thanks for the tips, ill go play with the bios again some more.

iJon

ZildjianKX

Jun 10, 2003, 01:26 PM

I personally like that when you build a computer yourself, if a part goes wrong you can ship back the individual part and still keep your PC (if a NIC goes bad, etc, send it back to Netgear)... or how you don't have to worry about voiding your warranty if you need to upgrade it and pay an ungodly amount for a "professional installer"...

I built the PC I'm on now three years ago, and it still runs faster than my friends new Compaq... mostly because of the cheap hard drive drive Compaq uses and their horrible OS installs.

I still want to get away from XP because it does have a degraded performance after awhile... but its a VERY stable OS with its NT kernel.

vniow

Jun 10, 2003, 01:41 PM

I do most of my browsing here on my home-built PC and I've had very few problems with it that weren't user-related...I don't put a bunch of extra crap on it though, I leave that for my Mac, if I had done all the little haxies and stuff that I've done on my Mac, it most definately would crash much more often.

My parent's Sony on the other hand has a bunch of crap on it and its been up for days without a restart so it depends I guess..

Schiffi

Jun 11, 2003, 10:18 AM

Personally my best experience with Windows has been with Win2K Pro. XP has been nothing but problematic. Explorer froze up just yesterday burning a CD using that built in feature. But I have basically have had the same computer (though I have upgraded constantly so no original parts are left). This is primarily the reason that I got a laptop instead of a desktop. So I could stop worrying about upgrades and be content with not having "the best". Though right now it is "the best" so I'll wait until WWDC to see if I can take that there is a better computer out there.

mactastic

Jun 11, 2003, 11:10 AM

I thought we were all griping about how badly pcs are beating apple in the speed department? Now we're complaining how slow they are? Which is it???:D

Now buggy, thats a different matter, but I have very few problems with XP, its pretty stable - just ugly as sin IMHO. Gotta love that apple GUI. Older operating systems are not so good, but isn't that why we like to cap on poor old OS 9?:cool:

The Shadow

Jun 13, 2003, 08:55 AM

XP sucks.

It is CRIMINALLY UGLY...

and I can crash any copy of it on anyone's computer any day of the week. Windows users think it's STABLE because it's a question of relativity. I can crash Win95/98 machines any minute you ask me to!

Win2000 and XP are slighly more stable than earlier versions because they have crappy kernals, but they are nowhere remotely nearly as stable as Jaguar. I don't know whether to laugh, cringe or cry at the suggestion. I bought Jaguar the first week it was out and I have not crashed it once.

I use Win2000, XP and OSX every working day of the week, but thankfully I only use OSX at home on weekends. Most of the people who have commented in this thread should go back to the Windows world where they belong.

If you like Windows and want to defend it, or any other crap in this world, you deserve it. So I'll defend your right to use it. But I just wish you would get out of this Mac forum!:D

P.S. Some tongue in cheek humour intended.

mcrain

Jun 13, 2003, 09:24 AM

All I know is that the PCs I've had become obsolete very, very quickly. I've bought high end computers and have had a computer built for me with high end parts, and they worked well, the OS's were typical (98 had troubles, 2000 has been strong, XP is slow but relatively stable).

My biggest problems were paying X thousand dollars and the maching being unable to run things in a very short period of time. I know the interval between speed increases and obsolecense is better, but I have friends running 5+ year old macs (and even much older), and their machines still run great. I can't imagine using a 5 year old PC. I'd go out of my mind.

The other big beef I have with PCs is that if you want to do anything complicated (like authoring a movie, burning a dvd, scanning pictures and/or text, whatever), you run into all sorts of problems. I've installed hardware that should work right out of the box, and have had nothing but problems. "One item is using the same address as another item, you need to do something way over my head."

I switched to the Mac because I liked the way they looked, I liked the *nix base, and I heard a lot of people say they really liked them.

Within 6 months, I've filled up 180 Gig of hard drive space with projects, movies, you name it. Stuff that I can't imagine my old PCs doing, or even a new high end PC. Not because they couldn't, but because it would have been very hard and would have required a lot more thinking.

With my mac, I plug my camera in, edit the video, set up the dvd menus, and click burn. Boom, it's done! That simple. If I want to make a fancy presentation, I open Keynote, and with very little effort, I have a professional looking presentation. I'm doing things with my computer that I didn't think were possible, and I'm doing them easily! That is why I am a Mac nut.

fourthtunz

Jun 13, 2003, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by tcolling

Multiple generations of stolen software can't be good for a system, either.

Such as the WindowsOS, I agree:D
daniel

Computer_Phreak

Jun 13, 2003, 12:31 PM

ive had about 5-6 pcs and 2 different macs, and i can honestly say that for me, buying from a vendor is overly expensive, and also comes with a lot of crappy OEM software. However, this was the first PC I built (that im on now), and it runs very smoothly. it was ridiculuosly cheaper than a mac, or a pre-built pc for that matter.

I would say that XP pro is more stable than OS X. I probably enjoy X more, but XP is probably a tad more stable, as an OS.

My friends, however, have xp (home), and have so much garbage like weatherbug and stuff.. they had literly like 30 items in their taskbar... their system crawled very slowly.. and that is one of the reasons that xp really sux0rs... third party crap, stuff like activex that propts you to install more crap at websites... most people click yes.

Anyway, im sick of people complaining that XP crashes every day and stuff, just like im sick of people saying macs suck when they dont use them.

iJon

Jun 13, 2003, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by Computer_Phreak
ive had about 5-6 pcs and 2 different macs, and i can honestly say that for me, buying from a vendor is overly expensive, and also comes with a lot of crappy OEM software. However, this was the first PC I built (that im on now), and it runs very smoothly. it was ridiculuosly cheaper than a mac, or a pre-built pc for that matter.

I would say that XP pro is more stable than OS X. I probably enjoy X more, but XP is probably a tad more stable, as an OS.

My friends, however, have xp (home), and have so much garbage like weatherbug and stuff.. they had literly like 30 items in their taskbar... their system crawled very slowly.. and that is one of the reasons that xp really sux0rs... third party crap, stuff like activex that propts you to install more crap at websites... most people click yes.

Anyway, im sick of people complaining that XP crashes every day and stuff, just like im sick of people saying macs suck when they dont use them.
well here is my deal with xp and x. i woudl take x over xp anyday. xp is very stable, i will agree with you on that. this is one thing i hav learned. xp does have hardly any crashes, but when it does its a big one, and my computer is wiped out. i do not put any crap on my pc because i hardly use it, just for games. and then i have to get out my discs and reinstall everything, including all my games and OS. with my mac if something goes wrong (which near to none happens) I can get out my boot discs and reinstall just the system folder and leave all my apps alone. this is why i like x better than xp. and the great thing about my mac, all that crap your friends put on their pcs i could put on mac and it would run fine without crashes all day.

iJon

Independence

Jun 13, 2003, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by aethier
my friend builthis own, its still slow (amd athlon 1700+) and he still gets all the common errors known to peecees

aethier
it gets all the common errors associated to windows 95/98/ME, not PCs. my linux system never has a problem. my windows 2000 pro system never has a software problem either. if you have software problems on windows 2000/XP then that's most likely due to sloppy system management. i'll bet your friend uses kazaa, right?

QCassidy352

Jun 13, 2003, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by Independence
it gets all the common errors associated to windows 95/98/ME, not PCs. my linux system never has a problem. my windows 2000 pro system never has a software problem either. if you have software problems on windows 2000/XP then that's most likely do to sloppy system management. i'll bet your friend uses kazaa, right?

to all the people saying that PCs are good as long as you know what you're doing: well, that's fine for pros who do know what they're doing. But consider how many people don't know what they're doing. The funny thing is that PCs are really more appropriate for those with the expertise not to ***** them up, but they are most used by the ignorant masses who are prone to "sloppy system management."
I think Macs are better because most users want a computer where they don't have to worry about system management.

edesignuk

Jun 13, 2003, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by QCassidy352
I think Macs are better because most users want a computer where they don't have to worry about system management.
Yeah, they just have repair permissions every time there is an update :rolleyes: don't kid yourself, Macs need attention too, that not all will know about/know how to do.

I do think a well built PC, using good quality components, and sensible use (not installing every piece of shareware crap @ download.com) can provide a fast, stable machine. Windows has come a LONG way since the constant BSODs of W95/W98/WME.

ZildjianKX

Jun 13, 2003, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by iJon
well here is my deal with xp and x. i woudl take x over xp anyday. xp is very stable, i will agree with you on that. this is one thing i hav learned. xp does have hardly any crashes, but when it does its a big one, and my computer is wiped out. i do not put any crap on my pc because i hardly use it, just for games. and then i have to get out my discs and reinstall everything, including all my games and OS. with my mac if something goes wrong (which near to none happens) I can get out my boot discs and reinstall just the system folder and leave all my apps alone. this is why i like x better than xp. and the great thing about my mac, all that crap your friends put on their pcs i could put on mac and it would run fine without crashes all day.

iJon

You can actually pop in the XP boot disc, and do an install over itself and it will only replace the system folder (don't do an upgrade!). It will leave all your apps, your desktop, and even the add/remove programs 100% intact... just gotta do some system updates again. :)

iJon

Jun 13, 2003, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by ZildjianKX
You can actually pop in the XP boot disc, and do an install over itself and it will only replace the system folder (don't do an upgrade!). It will leave all your apps, your desktop, and even the add/remove programs 100% intact... just gotta do some system updates again. :)
interesting, i knew you could do it when accessing the cd in windows itself. but i could never figure out how to do it from booting for the cd. explain some more please.

iJon

LethalWolfe

Jun 14, 2003, 01:48 AM

I've built 3 PCs (two for me and one for my GF) and I've had much less problems w/my home built PCs than I have with OEM's. Of course OEMs run much better if you nuke the HDD when you first get it and do a clean, OS only install so all of that crap it ships w/gets destroyed. :)

I bought my first Mac last year to be my edit rig (never owned a Mac before) and about 6 months after I got it I started saving up to buy a Mac laptop to replace my homebuilt PC as my day-to-day computer. It's not that my baby is bad to use or anything but I just prefer the Mac environment more. Maybe it's just the change I like, I dunno. But what I do know is my PC days are number. Unless of course I get enough free time and $$$ to afford to build a hot rod gaming rig. :D

Lethal

ZildjianKX

Jun 14, 2003, 02:50 AM

Originally posted by iJon
interesting, i knew you could do it when accessing the cd in windows itself. but i could never figure out how to do it from booting for the cd. explain some more please.

iJon

Just pop in the CD, do a install to the same windows directory as before (it will detect your previous installation)... then let it finish... Everything will be 100% there.

RandomDeadHead

Jun 14, 2003, 04:23 AM

Some people buy cars, and some people build them.

Some people build fast, reliable, stable PC's.

But most people just go out and buy the cheap crap that they sell in stores, these are the ones that have problems.

When a person buys a Mac, they are pretty much guaranted that they will not have the problems that MOST people have with store bought pc's.

BTW, If a person builds a car and it breaks, the person is probably knowledgeable enough to diagnose and fix the problem theirselves. But I would never try to fix an electrical problem with my Kia by my self,
Would you?

bobindashadows

Jun 14, 2003, 10:30 AM

My friend built his own PC a little while ago - I dont' know the exact specs, but I believe its an Athlon 1700, it's got a GeForce 3, 512MB DDR Ram (333 I think), SB Live!, a network card, and I think that's it. Oh yeah, he has a 40x CD-ROM and a 32x CD-RW. Unfortunately, he was too cheap to get a good one, and so he has to burn audio CDs at 4x, fearing buffer underruns *roll*. Data CDs can burn at 12x without making a coaster. It cost him about 700 bucks.

He was beyond miserable getting it stable. It took him 3 months to get most of it working - excluding the network card, which took 6 months.

His computer wouldn't start up, blurting random messages about "IRQ OVERLOAD"s and General Protection Faults. Every once in a while, it would just turn off and he'd have to wait 5 minutes before he could start it up. The computer wasn't even running hot - he has 5 fans installed.

It was a month and a half before he finally had to get a specialist to tell him that he couldn't have onboard sound enabled and his sound card enabled. It's too bad windows didn't just say that! For those interested, IRQ stands for Interrupt Request (I think). His network card didn't work, nor did a second one he had to get. The second one worked miraculously one evening six months after assembling the computer.

It's fast, though *roll* I guess hell is worth going through to make a fast PC. He made it for games. However, a number of games just don't run on it, for no reason, like Giants: Citizen Kabuto (good game!) and Ghost Recon (good game!).

bobindashadows

Jun 14, 2003, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by QCassidy352
to all the people saying that PCs are good as long as you know what you're doing: well, that's fine for pros who do know what they're doing. But consider how many people don't know what they're doing. The funny thing is that PCs are really more appropriate for those with the expertise not to ***** them up, but they are most used by the ignorant masses who are prone to "sloppy system management."
I think Macs are better because most users want a computer where they don't have to worry about system management.

Exactly right. When I find a piece of shareware that has a function I'd like, I don't have to worry, or see if there's a better solution that won't screw my system up. I install it and if it works, good, keep it. Oh, and mac's can use file sharing programs, and don't get screwed up systems (or spyware ;)) not that I support piracy - I don't, I'm just saying in terms of freedom from crap, Mac users have it much better off.

All of the Windows people here have a somewhat good point - that as long as you are careful with what you install and know not to use certain things, windows won't crash too often. I have a better point - on macs, you can install and use whatever the hell you want, and the computer will still start up.

Well, except for one time in System 8.6 when I installed so many kaleidoscope themes my computer ran out of memory starting up... but that's 8.6 and overdose on themes. As far as I know, if you wanted to install a lot of themes for Mac OS X (with an imaginary version of Kaleidoscope), it would use Virtual Memory and run quite slowly. Not crash, or give "general protection faults".

Vlade

Jun 14, 2003, 10:49 AM

I went to a lan party with 4 PCs + my Mac, and each one one the PCs had a problem. One started up into DOS for some unknown reason, and he had to reinstall windows. Another didn't have network for some reason, and the other two were just real slow.

Oh, and they all built there own PCs

Independence

Jun 14, 2003, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by bobindashadows
[B]Oh yeah, he has a 40x CD-ROM and a 32x CD-RW. Unfortunately, he was too cheap to get a good one, and so he has to burn audio CDs at 4x, fearing buffer underruns *roll*. Data CDs can burn at 12x without making a coaster. It cost him about 700 bucks.QUOTE]
that's his own damn fault. maybe he shouldn't have used cheap components...

[QUOTE]He was beyond miserable getting it stable. It took him 3 months to get most of it working - excluding the network card, which took 6 months.
sounds like someone is clueless. i was up and running in less than a day when i built my own PC. maybe you should tell your friend to build his own Mac and see how well he fares with that. if he's as sloppy as you make it sound then i doubt it would run well.

His computer wouldn't start up, blurting random messages about "IRQ OVERLOAD"s and General Protection Faults. Every once in a while, it would just turn off and he'd have to wait 5 minutes before he could start it up. The computer wasn't even running hot - he has 5 fans installed.
once again, that's his own damn fault. he's better off getting a prebuilt computer from Gateway...

It was a month and a half before he finally had to get a specialist to tell him that he couldn't have onboard sound enabled and his sound card enabled. It's too bad windows didn't just say that! For those interested, IRQ stands for Interrupt Request (I think). His network card didn't work, nor did a second one he had to get. The second one worked miraculously one evening six months after assembling the computer.
how strange... i used an onboard sound chip to play back sound and i used a PCI sound card to record. no problems. and an operating system shouldn't have to tell someone who builds their own computers that they basically ****ed up. people who build their own computers should have the knowledge necessary to fix problems such as this.

It's fast, though *roll* I guess hell is worth going through to make a fast PC. He made it for games. However, a number of games just don't run on it, for no reason, like Giants: Citizen Kabuto (good game!) and Ghost Recon (good game!).
i built my own PC and i haven't gone through hell. and, at the time, it was fast. i'm due for an upgrade and i'm gonna get new components for my system. the iMac is being put off until i'm well under way to getting a car. besides, i want to see if the PPC970 rumors are true.

TeraRWM

Jun 14, 2003, 11:11 AM

I built my own system. All windows boot CDs haven't worked with the two drives I have, so I've had no way of getting windows on there...but since I could get linux working booting off the CD (:/) I found out the mobo doesn't want to see the sound out...or ANY AGP card I feed it.

A smashing success I guess...

Oh yeah, tech support for it sucks.

Invizzible

Jun 14, 2003, 12:17 PM

I used to use only PC's. I bought my first Mac (a G4 400Mhz Powermac) because I was having a horrible time trying to record multitrack audio on a PC and a friend who did audio engineering for a living said he would never even attempt it on a PC. He also said if I bought a Mac I would be able to do anything I wanted, and wouldn't have any problems. He was right. I bought the Mac, and used it side-by-side with the PC for 2 years. I eventually ditched the PC (I didn't build this PC, but I did lots of upgrades to it) because over those two years it became unbearably glitchy and unstable, while the Mac (running OS9) remained as solid as when I'd bought it (I treated both machines equally, installing tons of programs on each). BTW, the PC was a Pentium 3 600Mhz machine, and when I tried running the same audio app. on it that I was running on the Mac (Pro Tools LE) it couldn't even come close to matching the performance of the 400Mhz G4. The only thing worse about the Mac back then was its internet performance, but that gap has since closed (at least for me). I don't ever plan on owning a PC again and I'm really looking forward to the next leap in Mac performance!

LethalWolfe

Jun 14, 2003, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by bobindashadows
My friend built his own PC a little while ago - I dont' know the exact specs, but I believe its an Athlon 1700, it's got a GeForce 3, 512MB DDR Ram (333 I think), SB Live!, a network card, and I think that's it. Oh yeah, he has a 40x CD-ROM and a 32x CD-RW. Unfortunately, he was too cheap to get a good one, and so he has to burn audio CDs at 4x, fearing buffer underruns *roll*. Data CDs can burn at 12x without making a coaster. It cost him about 700 bucks.

He was beyond miserable getting it stable. It took him 3 months to get most of it working - excluding the network card, which took 6 months.

His computer wouldn't start up, blurting random messages about "IRQ OVERLOAD"s and General Protection Faults. Every once in a while, it would just turn off and he'd have to wait 5 minutes before he could start it up. The computer wasn't even running hot - he has 5 fans installed.

It was a month and a half before he finally had to get a specialist to tell him that he couldn't have onboard sound enabled and his sound card enabled. It's too bad windows didn't just say that! For those interested, IRQ stands for Interrupt Request (I think). His network card didn't work, nor did a second one he had to get. The second one worked miraculously one evening six months after assembling the computer.

It's fast, though *roll* I guess hell is worth going through to make a fast PC. He made it for games. However, a number of games just don't run on it, for no reason, like Giants: Citizen Kabuto (good game!) and Ghost Recon (good game!).

No offense to your friend but I think the problem might be located between the keyboard and the chair. Just because one can build a computer doesn't mean one knows how to build a computer. ;)

The blessing and the bane of building your own PC is the vast array of choices you have. If you do your homework and choose wisely you'll be in heaven. If you don't do your homework and you choose poorly you'll be in hell.

Of course the opposite is true on a Mac. The smaller amount of choices means you are less likely to encounter conflicts, but you have fewer options to choose from.

It's all a give and take.

Lethal

reflex

Jun 14, 2003, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by jxyama
computer is an inorganic object. it should not deteriorate, as if it's alive. i've personally come to the conclusion that it's due to windows bloat and cheapo parts. this is strictly my opinion based on my experience.

But it IS alive, in the sense that it changes all the time. The hardware itself also changes all the time (small changes that may build up over time).

ZildjianKX

Jun 14, 2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by TeraRWM
I built my own system. All windows boot CDs haven't worked with the two drives I have, so I've had no way of getting windows on there...but since I could get linux working booting off the CD (:/) I found out the mobo doesn't want to see the sound out...or ANY AGP card I feed it.

A smashing success I guess...

Oh yeah, tech support for it sucks.

Dude, ever heard of a bootable floppy?

Independence

Jun 14, 2003, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by ZildjianKX
Dude, ever heard of a bootable floppy?
most Mac types are unable to believe that floppies still exist. floppies are old but they can make a pretty big difference in some cases.

I built my own system. All windows boot CDs haven't worked with the two drives I have, so I've had no way of getting windows on there...but since I could get linux working booting off the CD (:/) I found out the mobo doesn't want to see the sound out...or ANY AGP card I feed it.
what version of windows? if it's windows 95/98 (and possibly ME), you can't boot off the CD. and i also recommend you check your BIOS and make sure your settings are correct.

ColoJohnBoy

Jun 14, 2003, 04:13 PM

My brother is a networking and technical expert for a company here in Colorado. He spend all day studying PCs, repairing both their hardware and software, and custom building them for people in the company offices. He built the one he uses at home. He freely admits to me that Macs are better computers. The hardware is of better quality, the software is better, and that OS X is "the ********** Allah, Buddha, Jesus, God of operating systems." (A direct quote, mind you). He's always playing around on my TiBook, and wishing he could afford one.

I'll have my PowerBook in six years from now, and probably more. He's had to replace his home computer every 2-3 years, and that's with regular, expert maintenance.

Visit Blue Pudding!
http://bluepudding.1hwy.com

Abstract

Jun 14, 2003, 07:11 PM

It just sounds like most of these "examples" of failed attempts at building a PC are by people who don't know what they're doing. If they did, almost none of these problems would happen, and you wouldn't be getting these weird messages. Don't build a PC unless you know what you're doing. If you or your friend chooses to build one anyway, then don't blame Windows or Microsoft when it **** up. :rolleyes: Nobody will admit when they're out of their league. It HAS to be Windows' fault, right?

[mod .edit - Don't circumvent the profanity filter.]

Rower_CPU

Jun 14, 2003, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by Abstract
It just sounds like most of these "examples" of failed attempts at building a PC are by people who don't know what they're doing. If they did, almost none of these problems would happen, and you wouldn't be getting these weird messages. Don't build a PC unless you know what you're doing. If you or your friend chooses to build one anyway, then don't blame Windows or Microsoft when it **** up. :rolleyes: Nobody will admit when they're out of their league. It HAS to be Windows' fault, right?

[mod .edit - Don't circumvent the profanity filter.]

To be fair, you have to give props to Windows for "working" with a wide variety of hardware.

That said, it shouldn't take an MCSE or A+ cert to get parts that should work together to work together right.

Roger1

Jun 14, 2003, 08:57 PM

I have a homebuilt pc. It's currently slow, unreliable and is in pieces in my office. It was acting up on me today, so I did a "dirty install" of Win95. Well, after I did that, it lost the cd rom and the modem. So, while piddling around with it, it decided to lose the floppy drive as well. Well after changing the floppy drive and cable, then putting the originals back in, it now works (the floppy drive anyway)

Well when the floppy crapped out, it had my boot disk in it. So I had to drag out my old, old pc, and make a new boot disk.

So I reboot my troubled machine, reformat the HD, and it still can't find the cdrom.

Hmm. I will say (in my defense) the machine is over 4 years old, and has run virtually flawlessly until very recently. So I don't feel bad (especially since my wife told me I am going to have to buy another pc if I can't fix it). :)

edit:clarification

damax452

Jun 14, 2003, 09:27 PM

Look at the big picture.

I have always used a PC, and have very little experience with macs so my opinion is a little biased here. I've both built my own PCs and bought from Dell. Sure I've had problems with them that were frustrating, but nothing major that required returning hardware.

I hate to say this, but its the truth. Maybe, just maybe microsoft and PC makers have done SOMETHING right...seeing as how 90% of the world uses PCs w/ MS software. It wasnt just by luck that all of those people chose MS. This is how competition works, plain and simple. The better product gets more business. So before you say PCs are horrible, look at all they have done right, not the few things they have done wrong. Nowadays however, the world is so saturated w/ MS that nearly all software/games/hardware are targetd for and optimized for Windows. So a hardcore gamer or a business is almost forced to buy MS to be compatible with the world, which kinda sucks.

So my question to you PC haters is, if Macs are so wonderful and never have problems, why hasnt the world picked up on this and begun using them over PCs?

Don't get me wrong, Macs appear to be great from what ive heard, and I have recently bought by first Apple product. I bought a 15gb iPod may 3, and i love it...very proud of it. I just get frustrated when people say PCs are so horrible, give them a chance.

Independence

Jun 14, 2003, 09:41 PM

i think it's really because Mac users hate Windows but they blame everything on the computer itself instead. PCs aren't limited to Windows. there's a wide range of operating systems. if you don't like Windows, use another operating system. if you build your own PC and it doesn't work right from the beginning, you have only yourself to blame.

LethalWolfe

Jun 14, 2003, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by damax452
The better product gets more business.

Close. The better marketed product gets more business. You don't have to make a better product you just have to convice people you make a better product and then deliver a product that isn't blatantly inferior.

Lethal

iJon

Jun 14, 2003, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by damax452
give them a chance.
funny you should say that, ive found many people i work with chose mac because they did give windows a chance, and it sucked.

iJon

fourthtunz

Jun 14, 2003, 10:33 PM

Where did all the windoz lovas come from? I never go to windoz sites, must be they're thinkin of switchin?
I have always thought that choice was a good thing but you wouldn't think so by some of the posts on here. Would it be better for computing if all that we had was windoz?
Where would the innovation come from then?
Why do people worry what computers others use?
Do I care what car you drive? No
If every mac user in the world banded together and put down windoz does it really matter? Why are people so angry about this?
It is implied by some that if you can't get your pc to work whether you built it or not means that you are dumb.
I worked in a hospital IS dept with 2500 pcs with a whole team of people to troubleshoot and there were lots of problems and nobody ever got fired, are they stupid? no.
Windoz is just good enough and is made by the biggest bully in computing. Be thankful that Apple and others still exist despite the bully. If this makes you mad take a deep breath, hit the red button on your powerstrip and step outside.
You're welcome in advance
daniel
:)

solvs

Jun 14, 2003, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by damax452

I have always used a PC, and have very little experience with macs so my opinion is a little biased here.

Not to pick apart your entire comment, but I think you're missing the point. Most Mac users have used Windows. It has saturated the market for other reasons than being a superior product (which IMO, it is not) as others have already mentioned. However most PC users have little to no contact with Macs. Especially OS X. So you've disproven your own arguement. That would be like a Mac user saying, "I've never used Windows, but I know it sucks and Macs are better". Which does happen.

But then, that would make them wrong too.

bobindashadows

Jun 15, 2003, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by Independence
sounds like someone is clueless. i was up and running in less than a day when i built my own PC. maybe you should tell your friend to build his own Mac and see how well he fares with that. if he's as sloppy as you make it sound then i doubt it would run well.

once again, that's his own damn fault. he's better off getting a prebuilt computer from Gateway...

how strange... i used an onboard sound chip to play back sound and i used a PCI sound card to record. no problems. and an operating system shouldn't have to tell someone who builds their own computers that they basically ****ed up. people who build their own computers should have the knowledge necessary to fix problems such as this.

i built my own PC and i haven't gone through hell. and, at the time, it was fast. i'm due for an upgrade and i'm gonna get new components for my system. the iMac is being put off until i'm well under way to getting a car. besides, i want to see if the PPC970 rumors are true.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. My biggest point was that just because you built your own PC
1. Doesn't make you a computer God.
2. Doesn't mean your computer is really fast.
3. Doesn't mean your computer is really stable.
4. Doesn't mean your computer will work perfectly.

A lot of PC users I've encountered say that as long as you build a PC it'll run fine. Then they have no idea how to do that correctly. Just out of interest, to compare with my friend, how much did your home-built PC cost?

(And yes, IMO he used cheap components. The company he bought the mobo from went out of business soon thereafter.)

bobindashadows

Jun 15, 2003, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by damax452
Look at the big picture.

I have always used a PC, and have very little experience with macs so my opinion is a little biased here. I've both built my own PCs and bought from Dell. Sure I've had problems with them that were frustrating, but nothing major that required returning hardware.

I hate to say this, but its the truth. Maybe, just maybe microsoft and PC makers have done SOMETHING right...seeing as how 90% of the world uses PCs w/ MS software. It wasnt just by luck that all of those people chose MS. This is how competition works, plain and simple. The better product gets more business. So before you say PCs are horrible, look at all they have done right, not the few things they have done wrong. Nowadays however, the world is so saturated w/ MS that nearly all software/games/hardware are targetd for and optimized for Windows. So a hardcore gamer or a business is almost forced to buy MS to be compatible with the world, which kinda sucks.

So my question to you PC haters is, if Macs are so wonderful and never have problems, why hasnt the world picked up on this and begun using them over PCs?

Don't get me wrong, Macs appear to be great from what ive heard, and I have recently bought by first Apple product. I bought a 15gb iPod may 3, and i love it...very proud of it. I just get frustrated when people say PCs are so horrible, give them a chance.
Unfortunately, this is the outlook most inexperienced computer users have. And while one may think it makes sense, in truth the quality of a product has much less to do with the success of the product than how it is marketed, as a whole. Windows comes on cheaper computers - so people on a budget more often buy computers with Windows. When people make their first computer purchase, they often know nothing about computers other than what they've seen so far. In most instances, this is that "every one uses windows." Many have never heard of Macs, and wouldn't buy one anyway since they are out of their price range. If you could install Mac OS X on every Dell, Gateway, etc. in the world, and those respective resellers were allowed to by Microsoft, then I would bet Apple would get several percentage points of market share. Not because people think Mac OS X is a better Operating System; they don't know what the hell an operating system is, ?r does. Those people buy the cheap computer, not the operating system. That's why Microsoft has those users, and not because Windows is better.