Buying a WinTel machine is like...

[lewdvig]

Marrying someone, who while mildly attractive is below your standards. You justify this by thinking that they will be lower maintenance, more practical but ultimately they let themselves go shortly after the wedding. You have to change your whole life to make it work.

Staying on Windows is like divorcing this spouse after you realize its only going to get worse and that you will never be happy and then marrying someone else that while younger, has the exact same properties.

Smart people either never make mistake number one, or after recognizing it switch to a partner that will make their lives happier.

-------------------------------------------

Its too cold outside to walk to my bagel place, so I am going to sit here and type stuff like this for a while as I eat my sangvitch.

[tazo]

I am so tired of this rabid zealotism that pervades even what I call a mac website standard like Macrumors.

Each side [pc and mac] have their specific advantages, their pros and their cons, and specific markets they both cater to.

To overlook this crucial fact is to be the worst kind of zealot: the uninformed.

Now mind you that if I was up to it I would have posted my normal tirade of anti-zealotism, but alas I am not. So I leave you with this:

Mac=Great*
PC =Great*

*Depending on wth YA USE IT FOR!

-tazo

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by tazo
I am so tired of this rabid zealotism that pervades even what I call a mac website standard like Macrumors.

Each side [pc and mac] have their specific advantages, their pros and their cons, and specific markets they both cater to.

To overlook this crucial fact is to be the worst kind of zealot: the uninformed.

Now mind you that if I was up to it I would have posted my normal tirade of anti-zealotism, but alas I am not. So I leave you with this:

Mac=Great*
PC =Great*

*Depending on wth YA USE IT FOR!

-tazo what's a legal, useful use for a PC where it is distinctly better than a mac?

[dho]

Originally posted by shadowfax
what's a legal, useful use for a PC where it is distinctly better than a mac?

A paperweight!

[Mudbug]

Originally posted by dho
A paperweight!
doorstop?

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by dho
A paperweight! but paperweights are supposed to be nice-looking.

[arn]

Originally posted by shadowfax
what's a legal, useful use for a PC where it is distinctly better than a mac?

There's no need to make this into a PC vs. Mac thread.

Tazo makes a good point.

arn

[tazo]

Originally posted by shadowfax
what's a legal, useful use for a PC where it is distinctly better than a mac?

Gaming, and when people have a lot of software they have bought for pc it is not economically feasible to go mac...

and kazaa is a cheap shot shadow ;)

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by Mudbug
doorstop? OK, i'll give you that one.

alright tazo, i agree with you. PCs are great überexpensive doorstops.

[dho]

How about a hampster cage/box!

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by tazo
Gaming, and when people have a lot of software they have bought for pc it is not economically feasible to go mac...

and kazaa is a cheap shot shadow ;) gaming i not useful. in that respect the PC is ousted by Xbox and PS2 anyway. as for not being a feasible switch because of software investments--you're right. but at the same time, that doesn't make the PC great.

[tazo]

Apple should make a doorstop:

"The worlds most powerful, most efficient, super com-- doorstop"

;)

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by dho
How about a hampster cage/box! hahahaha....

Mommy, the hamster got electrocuted on a capacitor again!!

*didn't i tell you to ground the little bastard, junior?!*

[edesignuk]

Originally posted by tazo
I am so tired of this rabid zealotism that pervades even what I call a mac website standard like Macrumors.

Each side [pc and mac] have their specific advantages, their pros and their cons, and specific markets they both cater to.

To overlook this crucial fact is to be the worst kind of zealot: the uninformed.

Now mind you that if I was up to it I would have posted my normal tirade of anti-zealotism, but alas I am not. So I leave you with this:

Mac=Great*
PC =Great*

*Depending on wth YA USE IT FOR!

-tazo
dito!

It drives me mad when people mindlessly bash the PC. I have a PC and I love it, I use it for all sorts. I have a Mac, I use it for all sorts, and I love it.

We (Mac users) get pissed when PC people bash the Mac...you are no better than them.

[tazo]

Originally posted by shadowfax
gaming i not useful. in that respect the PC is ousted by Xbox and PS2 anyway. as for not being a feasible switch because of software investments--you're right. but at the same time, that doesn't make the PC great.

While I agree with you, the console vs. pc gaming argument is a long and overly debilitating topic -- not to mention betwixt someone who most likely games and someone like myself who does a minimal amount.

The pc is great depending on what ya need it do do, just like a mac is great if it does what ya need to do. People hold different things at different lengths away from their heart, for some it is gaming, while others it is everything else ;)


dito!

It drives me mad when people mindlessly bash the PC. I have a PC and I love it, I use it for all sorts. I have a Mac, I use it for all sorts, and I love it.

We (Mac users) get pissed when PC people bash the Mac...you are no better than them.

You are absolutely correct! It is a mindless double standard that need not pervade Macrumors.com like the useless blather that is spymac.

-tazo

[Sabenth]

agrees :)

g5 great looking Mac / pcs look great too
fast yep there both fast formats now
big hard drives yep
chips a choice of chips too



enough blah from me

[dho]

BOth the g5 and a pc would be perfect to help nurture some fertilized eggs

for a t-rex

[lewdvig]

Originally posted by tazo
I am so tired of this rabid zealotism that pervades even what I call a mac website standard like Macrumors.

Each side [pc and mac] have their specific advantages, their pros and their cons, and specific markets they both cater to.

To overlook this crucial fact is to be the worst kind of zealot: the uninformed.

Now mind you that if I was up to it I would have posted my normal tirade of anti-zealotism, but alas I am not. So I leave you with this:

Mac=Great*
PC =Great*

*Depending on wth YA USE IT FOR!

-tazo

Dude, read the sig next time. I have pretty much as fast a PC as you can buy today.

This is just meant for fun. Tazo (and others) you are what you condemn: zealots! Typical Mac spazzes that lash out without thinking. Haha, I laugh at you.

[tazo]

Originally posted by lewdvig
Dude, read the sig next time. I have pretty much as fast a PC as you can buy today.

This is just meant for fun. Tazo (and others) you are what you condemn: zealots! Typical Mac spazzes that lash out without thinking. Haha, I laugh at you.

its tazo, first of all, look at my handle and you will surely see the omission of a capital 't'.

2nd you seem like a zealot yourself mr. lwedvid.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by tazo
While I agree with you, the console vs. pc gaming argument is a long and overly debilitating topic -- not to mention betwixt someone who most likely games and someone like myself who does a minimal amount.

The pc is great depending on what ya need it do do, just like a mac is great if it does what ya need to do. People hold different things at different lengths away from their heart, for some it is gaming, while others it is everything else ;) you keep saying that, and you can't come up with anything but games.

seriously, i think the mac is better. at everything that is important and useful. the gaming thing just reinforces that PCs are better as toys. ok. that does nothing for me.

a balanced mac view, i think, is one that states that while the Mac is better, PCs are perfectly viable, adequate machines, especially (and really only) when you know what you're doing on them.

if i refuse to say that PCs are great, that doesn't make me a zealot. they aren't trash cans, obviously, and bashing them mindlessly is wrong, but they really are not as good as macs. if i didn't think so, i wouldn't have bought a mac.

[lewdvig]

Originally posted by tazo
its tazo, first of all, look at my handle and you will surely see the omission of a capital 't'.

2nd you seem like a zealot yourself mr. lwedvid.

Zealot with out a cause, thats me!

My old sig:
G4 Tower 1.25GHz MDD RADEON 9000 (stock... for now, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!)
3.36GHz P4, 1GB Dual Channel DDR, RADEON 9800XT, WinXP Home - necessary evil (games)
http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=7171873

[Sabenth]

oh here we go again :> i ask ya is it worth all this effort to get some were both platforms are great no doubt about it and at the end of the day there only computers do you get pissed over some one werearing armani colothing compared to some one wearing Jeans tshirt and sneakers

[tazo]

shadow makes a good point...

I can understand someones reasoning for having a pc and keeping it over buying a new mac, because if they have say the adobe suite [paid for] then it is not really economically feasible to pay that 800 dollar price tag again for the mac, even tho he or she might have a better user experience on the mac.

Ya get where i am going with this shadow? It all comes down to the economic feasibility and the almighty legal tender.

-tazo

[lewdvig]

Originally posted by Sabenth
oh here we go again :> i ask ya is it worth all this effort to get some were both platforms are great no doubt about it and at the end of the day there only computers do you get pissed over some one werearing armani colothing compared to some one wearing Jeans tshirt and sneakers

Just looking for some creative and entertaining analogies. Didn't think it was so much to ask. Mac users are a creative community, what's the big deal.

Are we really so PC that we can't bash PCs. I have way more money sunk in PCs than Macs. Believe me, it does not hurt my feelings to bash them.

LOL, people who don't even own PCs are like 'please don't hurt 'em,' or 'save the starving Wintel boxes, don't let 'em die!'

If you want a serious cause, there are kids starving in Africa. Get upset about that. This is just fun and games.

[Sabenth]

if you have both pc and Mac formats you have the best of both worlds

echnomic wise having 2 formats makes life easier you can cross over onto what ever platform dose the job best but once again :) i like both platforms just wish my pc was a tad quiter bowls the friging house down when its on and thats not because of power but because of the heat sink

[lewdvig]

If my house was on fire and after everything else I had time to grab a computer, I would grab the Mac first. Its the only place I trust for keeping family pix and movies. Digital hub for sure.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by tazo
shadow makes a good point...

I can understand someones reasoning for having a pc and keeping it over buying a new mac, because if they have say the adobe suite [paid for] then it is not really economically feasible to pay that 800 dollar price tag again for the mac, even tho he or she might have a better user experience on the mac.

Ya get where i am going with this shadow? It all comes down to the economic feasibility and the almighty legal tender.

-tazo i know where you're going, but as i said, your situation has nothing to do with which is better. you may be tied to the PC by a few thousand dollars of software, but that will never make it better, even for you. it would still be better to get a mac, but you just can't afford it, so it's "better" to stick with the adequate solution. that's just a "can't afford to switch" thing.

I'd be driving an RX-8 now--if i could afford it. the fact that i can't doesn't make my civic better for me...

[bousozoku]

Actually, in a corporate environment, it's much better to run Windows PCs are termnals to the large enterprise-wide machines.

IBM, for instance, provides terminal emulation licences for a few thousand USD while the same type of emulation costs 250 USD per seat.

Besides that, database management tools, Customer Relationship Management applications which run on small graphical systems tend to not run well, if at all, on Macintosh.

[leet1]

A PC can do anything a Mac can and just as good. :rolleyes: Theres no argueing this. It can also do it at a cheeper price also ;)

[edesignuk]

Originally posted by lewdvig
If my house was on fire and after everything else I had time to grab a computer, I would grab the Mac first.
heh, me to, know why? It cost twice what my 3.0GHz P4 PC did!!!

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by leet1
A PC can do anything a Mac can and just as good. :rolleyes: Theres no argueing this. It can also do it at a cheeper price also ;) yeah, and you know what? it's over a million times better at getting viruses than a mac. ;)

[tazo]

Originally posted by shadowfax
yeah, and you know what? it's over a million times better at getting viruses than a mac. ;)

In all fairness I have owned my pc for 4 years and have yet to ever get a virus.

[leet1]

Originally posted by shadowfax
yeah, and you know what? it's over a million times better at getting viruses than a mac. ;)

Its called virus protection ;)

Very simple to keep a PC Virus free, but of course you get those 1D10T errors. :rolleyes: lol

[stoid]

Okay. For over a month our campus with heavy firewall and virus software installed was SO over run by the blaster virus that bandwidth used by the blaster virus was twice that of regular legit bandwidth usage. Apparently, it's not that easy to keep a Windows machine virus free.

[lewdvig]

I have never had a Virus on a PC at work or home that wasn't nabbed by NAV.

But I have received a lot of resumes and important business docs from people who were infected by Outlook or SMTP virii or worms. It was enough to convince me to put all my important stuff on the Mac.

Can you imagine your resume or an NDA'ed document being sent to your entire contact list? This is the stuff nightmares are made of.

[leet1]

Originally posted by stoid
Okay. For over a month our campus with heavy firewall and virus software installed was SO over run by the blaster virus that bandwidth used by the blaster virus was twice that of regular legit bandwidth usage. Apparently, it's not that easy to keep a Windows machine virus free.

Wrong, it is. Its the people using them that are the problem. ;)

If everyone would have patched when they should have there would be no problems there.

[stoid]

I have the perfect virus protection package installed on my laptop, it's called Mac OS X. It's not a slice of swiss cheese, and therefore not vulnerable to viruses. The idea behind a Mac is that you don't have to be a tech geek just to do basic OS functions and have security on your machine. If it's too hard for a beginner to do beginner-type things, then in my book, it chalks up as a fat pile of ****.

[lewdvig]

'Wrong, it is. Its the people using them that are the problem.

If everyone would have patched when they should have there would be no problems there.'


Wrong.

The problem is creating an OS where every user has root priveleges. You can run arbitrary code easily on any PC.

This is a problem that will require a completely new, from the ground up, OS from MS. They won't do this. Longhorn, for example, is just a bunch of new things tacked onto XP. New file system, a new winapi32, etc. MS can not afford to break backwards compatibility (especially when 95% of the market bought your last OS).

[leet1]

Originally posted by stoid
I have the perfect virus protection package installed on my laptop, it's called Mac OS X. It's not a slice of swiss cheese, and therefore not vulnerable to viruses. The idea behind a Mac is that you don't have to be a tech geek just to do basic OS functions and have security on your machine. If it's too hard for a beginner to do beginner-type things, then in my book, it chalks up as a fat pile of ****.

Ok, I just laughed when I read this post. You think you have to be a tech geek just to do basic OS functions in windows? I'm guessing you haven't used one in the past 10 years? lol Security on a windows machine is easy, Firewall + virus scan. Not a big deal.

[leet1]

Originally posted by lewdvig
The problem is creating an OS where every user has root priveleges. You can run arbitrary code easily on any PC.



firewall + virus scan ;)

[lewdvig]

Originally posted by leet1
firewall + virus scan ;)

Virus scan is great for last week's virus. But if I send you something new, it will own your box.

Unless you configure your Firewall properly you are not completely protected from the outside world.

This just adds a extra layer of complexity to a system. All this extra complexity to fix a core flaw.

[lewdvig]

Sigh, this thread was no fun.

I guess I can understand my everyone flipped out. Its impossible to keep these things on topic.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by leet1
firewall + virus scan ;) such a foolish comment: my roommate had all the latest updates to windows, a firewall up, and Norton antivirus going... he got hit by blaster several times, really messed him up, as well as tons of people here at OU who also have virus protection. my mac has no virus protection, and i am yet to get a trace of one.

[AmigoMac]

really HAPPY with that machine when runs on Linux, really great when I got to run those of my carreer programs which don't run on mac, I got a partition for Linux and it's nice, Virus? Never, It never gets connected to internet, that Pentium III will stay here...It's not against PC, it's just again 3 - 5 reboots / week ...

[leet1]

Originally posted by lewdvig
Virus scan is great for last week's virus. But if I send you something new, it will own your box.

Unless you configure your Firewall properly you are not completely protected from the outside world.

This just adds a extra layer of complexity to a system. All this extra complexity to fix a core flaw.

Ok, you send me something new......I don't open it :eek:



Problem solved. No reason to open a strange document. ;)


Configuring a firewall isn't too hard either. Linksys come with a nice little picture book of instructions, heh.

Of course you also have software firewalls. ZoneAlarm, which is free, ask you what you want to access the internet. Just say yes or no, pretty simple ;)

[leet1]

Originally posted by shadowfax
such a foolish comment: my roommate had all the latest updates to windows, a firewall up, and Norton antivirus going...


Kind of odd, so did I, and yet....I stayed virus free. Hmmm, strange.

There was nothing foolish about my comment, so pssh :p

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by leet1
Kind of odd, so did I, and yet....I stayed virus free. Hmmm, strange.

There was nothing foolish about my comment, so pssh :p it's different when you are on a college network, though.

[leet1]

Originally posted by shadowfax
it's different when you are on a college network, though.

I was on my colleges wireless network..... Am I missing something here? Whats the difference?

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by leet1
I was on my colleges wireless network..... Am I missing something here? Whats the difference? i don't know. perhaps yours has better security. OU's security isn't particularly good. still, it's not the users' fault here though. it's just hard to keep up with all this stuff, and an insanely huge amount of trouble to bother, on everyone's part.

[VIREBEL661]

Originally posted by tazo
I am so tired of this rabid zealotism that pervades even what I call a mac website standard like Macrumors.

Totally disagree with you. There's nothing wrong with this - we get this junk from the PC side of the world CONSTANTLY. Mostly, THEY'RE misinformed, not Mac fans. I don't think it's fair to complain about somebody hating windoze (well, because it SUCKS), and being a fan of the Mac in a Mac forum of any sort. FYI, I work on PC's all the time, and am far from misinformed.

[leet1]

Mostly, THEY'RE misinformed, not Mac fans.


Right, mac fans are never misinformed, ;) I was until I got a PC, lol so that proves that wrong.

I don't think it's fair to complain about somebody hating windoze (well, because it SUCKS)

This sucking that your talking about isn't coming through on my desktop/laptop. Maybe its the linux or windows XP controling my thoughts making me use it :p

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by leet1
Right, mac fans are never misinformed, ;) I was until I got a PC, lol so that proves that wrong. you should understand that you can't disprove generalizations by single examples. he said "mostly," not "invariably."

[leet1]

Yea, I cought that after a second look, lol, hoping no one noticed :p

[lewdvig]

Originally posted by leet1
Ok, you send me something new......I don't open it :eek:



Problem solved. No reason to open a strange document. ;)


Configuring a firewall isn't too hard either. Linksys come with a nice little picture book of instructions, heh.

Of course you also have software firewalls. ZoneAlarm, which is free, ask you what you want to access the internet. Just say yes or no, pretty simple ;)

Linksys huh? I hope you at least changed the default settings.

A lot of malicious code can be hidden in a web page or delivered through a successful port scan and instrusion. I can spoof names from your address book and send you an html email that will take over your machine. No html email? I will send you a link that you will probably open because it came from some random name in your address book. Once code is installed on your PC that firewall is useless.

A very big chunk of the spam mail floating around is due to compromised wintel boxes with liitle SMTP engines installed on them.

Maybe your machine is locked down tight. But it does not mean that it is secure. Every week there are new reported vulnerabilities, and many that do not get reported.

Macs ship with the root acct disabled by default. Its actually a pain in the ass to enable it. The only way I can install and run code (or change important settings that would enable me to) would be to have root priveleges. Malicious code loses its teeth when it asks permission to be installed.
:)

[leet1]

Originally posted by lewdvig
Hee hee, Linksys huh? I hope you at least changed the default settings.

hee hee hee


Broadcast IP, fake IP, just a few other things :)

[stoid]

Originally posted by leet1
Ok, I just laughed when I read this post. You think you have to be a tech geek just to do basic OS functions in windows? I'm guessing you haven't used one in the past 10 years? lol Security on a windows machine is easy, Firewall + virus scan. Not a big deal.

In fact, not a full month ago, before I bought my new Apple laptop, I was using the school supplied Gateway box running Windows 2000 Professional (a step up from what a good deal of the windows world is still using), and I was hoping to be able to hold out through my Freshman year, and then get a mac. After the first month of school I was already pulling out my hair because basic features such as copy/pasting and internet browsing would simply stop functioning at least once a day, and always at the most in-opportune times. My friend on campus with a brand new Windows XP laptop said that he has the same problems with his computer but, (and I quote), "That's just the way things are, you just, learn to deal with them I guess." In my computer usage class we are taught that a graphical OS is cumbersome and difficult to use, and that Macs can only support 32 character filenames and that QuickTime has just reached version 3. And this is in a 2003 published textbook. I think that many people in the Windows world simply have Microsoft's d*ck wedged SO firmly up their ass that they can't even see that their OS is flawed on so many fundamental levels. Not only does Microsoft HAVE 95 percent market share, but they are employing at the very least borderline anti-competitive businesses practices. Can't they just accept that some people don't blindly follow their dogma instead of trying to smash those that are clinging to a way that is at the very least different if not better. Okay, that's enough for now, but I must say leet, you are just as closed minded about Windows if not more so than the people you are trying to make fun of. I have used Windows, and I have used Mac, and I prefer the Macintosh. I value creativity and my Mac is absolutely perfect for any creative field in existence today.

[leet1]

Im closed minded because I choose a PC that I have more options and is a money saver?


Maybe its not that most windows people have a **** up there ***, but it could be that it works for them and they actually like it :eek:

Im not trying to mac fun of anyone, really, I'm here to read, laugh, enjoy, and inform. :D

[stoid]

Originally posted by leet1
...most windows people have a **** up there *** ... it works for them and they actually like it :eek:

I know it's a misquote, but you said you are here to laugh ;) Anyway, I just get sick of people telling me that I only like Mac because I have never used a Windows machine. I have used and seen used Windows very often, and I'll admit that it is a better gaming platform, but if I want a gaming platform, I'll buy a PS2 or XBox or GameCube or whatever, whereas if I want a productive tool, I'll buy a mac.

You wouldn't buy a WV Bug if you wanted to race just like you wouldn't by a Ferrari if you wanted to economically get from your house to the grocery store.

[hulugu]

Originally posted by tazo
shadow makes a good point...

I can understand someones reasoning for having a pc and keeping it over buying a new mac, because if they have say the adobe suite [paid for] then it is not really economically feasible to pay that 800 dollar price tag again for the mac, even tho he or she might have a better user experience on the mac.

Ya get where i am going with this shadow? It all comes down to the economic feasibility and the almighty legal tender.

-tazo

But, tazo I hope you realize that this economica penalty cuts both ways. If I have Adobe Suite for Macintosh it won't work on the PC will it? This isn't an advantage for the PC, but rather a reality of the software market. Consoles have the same problem, in fact most things do. The PC may have more games (notice I never said better) and a larger total number of software titles, but that's about it.
However, I can see how this could affect somone's decision to switch, but this is not an advantage for the PC.

And I think we can bash the PC all we want as long as its in fun, the PC people can't help doing the same, we don't have to be ambassadors all the time do we?

And finally, I would like the word zealot to be outlawed from all further discussions, it's idealogically loaded, it doesn't describe most Mac users and yet it is used to describe all of us. You might as well say drink the koolaide, or enter the RDF. These things are just ways for those who like something besides the Wintel solution to be belittled.
It's not like we're all holed up at Massada.

[leet1]

Originally posted by stoid
I know it's a misquote, but you said you are here to laugh ;) Anyway, I just get sick of people telling me that I only like Mac because I have never used a Windows machine. I have used and seen used Windows very often, and I'll admit that it is a better gaming platform, but if I want a gaming platform, I'll buy a PS2 or XBox or GameCube or whatever, whereas if I want a productive tool, I'll buy a mac.

You wouldn't buy a WV Bug if you wanted to race just like you wouldn't by a Ferrari if you wanted to economically get from your house to the grocery store.


The pc platform is excellent for any task that a mac is. Were talking windows here specifically though I guess. Windows is more than just a good game platform, but I will never get that point across here<being a mac forum and all :p > so I'll just stop there.


Few reasons why people have problems with windows:

1. Id10T Error
2. Installing stupid ****
3. Saying yes to every promp that pops up when you go to a website<see #2>
4. ****ty hardware
5. Running an older version and thinking it will be just as good as the newer one<If you have windowsM.E., download XP off Kazaa, you deserve a free version >
6. Opening up unknown e-mails from unknown people.

[hulugu]

Originally posted by leet1
Ok, I just laughed when I read this post. You think you have to be a tech geek just to do basic OS functions in windows? I'm guessing you haven't used one in the past 10 years? lol Security on a windows machine is easy, Firewall + virus scan. Not a big deal.


First, I call troll.
But, I'll bite because I'm bored waiting for my PC to finish printing (oh the joys of P4 2.4).
According the DOE CIAC http://www.ciac.org/ciac/ there are hundreds of virii for Windows and none for OSX.
Also, the RBC flaw that exhibited in August used a flaw in a service few used and almost no one knew about.
And if patching is so easy, how come MS couldn't do it for their own servers. Yes, you have not gotten a virus, I say you're lucky. Is OSX perfect, no but it's certainly better than Windows.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by hulugu
First, I call troll. seriously, "leet1," i don't know what you're getting at. this is the single worst way to start posting in this community.

[leet1]

Originally posted by hulugu
First, I call troll.
But, I'll bite because I'm bored waiting for my PC to finish printing (oh the joys of P4 2.4).
Is OSX perfect, no but it's certainly better than Windows.


K, no reason to call names. Kinda childish don't you think?
OSX being better than windows is an opinion. Yours, not mine.


and I hope your not blaming that P4 2.4 being the reason your printers slow :rolleyes: :p lol

[leet1]

Originally posted by shadowfax
seriously, "leet1," i don't know what you're getting at. this is the single worst way to start posting in this community.

I've been a viewer here for a while, thought I'd start somewhere lol

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by leet1
I've been a viewer here for a while, thought I'd start somewhere lol that's great, and you'll be welcome here, but i don't know that this is the best kind of discussion for you to start in on.

[tazo]

Originally posted by VIREBEL661
Totally disagree with you. There's nothing wrong with this - we get this junk from the PC side of the world CONSTANTLY. Mostly, THEY'RE misinformed, not Mac fans. I don't think it's fair to complain about somebody hating windoze (well, because it SUCKS), and being a fan of the Mac in a Mac forum of any sort. FYI, I work on PC's all the time, and am far from misinformed.

Well the parts that were written coherently I understood, so I will respond with the following:

If you are informed about the pc platform, talk to me. But I refuse to accept misinformed blanket statements that are not backed up by any logic, actual information, or more than one jerk's personal experience.

To say that macs suck is one thing, to say they suck because they lack the games I like or that they dont have the software I use on a daily basis is another. Ya see the difference? Logic, versus that which lacks it.

-tazo

[hulugu]

Originally posted by leet1
K, no reason to call names. Kinda childish don't you think?
OSX being better than windows is an opinion. Yours, not mine.


and I hope your not blaming that P4 2.4 being the reason your printers slow :rolleyes: :p lol

See that's the funny thing, I printed something out on my PB and it just flew out. I printed something on the PC and it just sat there wanking off before it printed. Now, I know my PB has a Gigabit Ethernet card, but ignoring that difference, which can't be much since my router is 10/100 so the signal is throttled down then anyway, the PC is still slow. This is in a PC centric office, and the PC running Win2k just stalls sometimes and the Mac runs like a champ.
Now you're doing to tell me my IT department configured something wrong, yadda, yadda, yadda but the fact is I brought the PB in, plug it into the router and boom I get fast printing. The Windows machine was worked on by a professional IT guy and yet, the Mac prints faster. Why?
Second, you ignored my question: if administering Windows machines and protecting them from virii is so easy, how come MS can't do it with their own servers.
Finally, I made the point about you being a troll because you have yet to bring anything to this conversation other than the usual PC rhetoric.

[leet1]

Originally posted by hulugu
Now you're doing to tell me my IT department configured something wrong, yadda, yadda, yadda but the fact is I brought the PB in, plug it into the router and boom I get fast printing. The Windows machine was worked on by a professional IT guy and yet, the Mac prints faster. Why?
Second, you ignored my question: if administering Windows machines and protecting them from virii is so easy, how come MS can't do it with their own servers.

Its gotta be another one of those 1D10T errors effecting ya man. Telling you, those things are terrible :rolleyes:

k, forgeting that you can't configure a windows PC right for a printer, I'll move on from that.

This conversation was never about their servers. Its about their Windows XP OS or the PC platform in general. :rolleyes:

[hulugu]

Originally posted by leet1
Its gotta be another one of those 1D10T errors effecting ya man. Telling you, those things are terrible :rolleyes:

k, forgeting that you can't configure a windows PC right for a printer, I'll move on from that.

This conversation was never about their servers. Its about their Windows XP OS or the PC platform in general. :rolleyes:

Little help for you: put your fingers on the primary keys: asdf jkl; that way you won't make mistakes like 1D1OT. :D
Second, you still haven't answered my question and I think its imperative that you do in an intelligent way: if administering a Windows environment, including both servers and desktops is so easy then why can't MS do it?If the tools and systems are so difficult for MS to administer, and they designed it, then why would you expect anyone else to be able to do the same? That is why the Mac is a better platform, my PB worked immediately using TCP/IP printing while the Wintel PC had to be reconfigured twice to work properly. (The IT dept. figured out the trouble and fixed it.)
The PC does have some advantages, but those are all from its pure ubiquitousness.

[leet1]

Originally posted by hulugu
if administering a Windows environment, including both servers and desktops is so easy then why can't MS do it?If the tools and systems are so difficult for MS to administer, and they designed it, then why would you expect anyone else to be able to do the same? That is why the Mac is a better platform, my PB worked immediately using TCP/IP printing while the Wintel PC had to be reconfigured twice to work properly. (The IT dept. figured out the trouble and fixed it.)
The PC does have some advantages, but those are all from its pure ubiquitousness.


I have no clue about microsoft servers, I know about microsoft windows 3.1,98,xp pro/home products so I can't say anything involving servers.

You have not proved that mac is the better platform, but your not trying to here, just saying it. I could get my 56 year old dad in here to explain the 1,000 ways windows is better in the business world and for home users, but I'm not dragging him up the stairs for that, lol

[hulugu]

1. Id10T Error
2. Installing stupid ****
3. Saying yes to every promp that pops up when you go to a website<see #2>
4. ****ty hardware
5. Running an older version and thinking it will be just as good as the newer one (If you have windowsM.E., download XP off Kazaa, you deserve a free version)
6. Opening up unknown e-mails from unknown people.

The above are reasons you used to explain the reason Windows becomes infected with virii, so I will try to refute the above and compare the above to the Mac world.

1. Idiot error: most users are not able to download all the patches and updates available for Windows at any given time, the tools to install those updates are often confusing (different names for each type, specific installation instructions that are not given with the update, etc.) or they have a tendancy to break things will makes updates for small networks up to the largest networks hazardous. This is why most sysadmins don't do it or test patches first. With the Mac OS the update tool is a simple point and click affair. The software update process is not perfect (the OSX.2.8 debacle comes to mind) and yet most if not all users are able to do updates and they can be automated for even the most useless users. Also, the updates are significantly smaller than the ones Windows users face, so using a 56k connection is not out of the realm of possibility.
2. Installing stupid ****. I assume you mean adware, spyware, and poorly made programs. While this can happen with the Mac OS, it is rare and a badly behaving program can be simply trashed and removed without orphaned .dlls scattered throughout the system. Also, this is used by most pro-Wintel users to show that so many more programs are available for the Windows platform, but many of them just outright suck. And because Mac OSX's underpinnings (UNIX) allow users to run without running as Admin really foolish users can be kept from installing programs in the first place.
3. Safari offers pop-up blocking which comes with every new Mac. Users don't even realize they can't see those prompts and never notice. Also, most evil malware doesn't work on the Mac. Also, IE which is deeply imbeded in the OS has numerous flaws which allow hackers to distribute dummy website which contain all sorts of dangerous ware. This is how Valve lost the Half-Life 2 source code.
4. ***ty hardware. Yep, much of the hardware for PC users sucks. Apple however makes quality products that last.
5. Ah yes, Windows ME almost as bad as BOB. The update stream for Windows is also confusing, quick what's the difference between WinXP Pro and Home Edition? Mac OS is sequential and OSX has the Classic environment to run old OS9 apps while users switch over.
6. Yes, Outlook Express, one of the most awfully coded apps is the de facto standard on Windows and it has been noted for running .exe programs without users prompts. Users merely download their email and are infected (witness the August series of virii to see the apps that were affected IE and OE) Meanwhile, while the Mac comes with Mail.app there are also at least a dozen other great programs for the Mac which do not run rouge executables and require the user to actively download and read the email, then run the executable, to become infected (users without Administrative access can't do this). Furthermore, there has yet to be a single virus for OSX. This may change, but even the most virulent virus cannot spread far because of the inherent design of OSX.

Windows users tend to fall into the trap I think you're in. Microsoft has made a half-assed product, sold it very well, and then stated publically that its all the user's fault. I'm not saying that some users aren't total tools and that all Mac users are better, but the Mac exhibits a better design and more intuitive interface and Apple has come up with some very nifty ways of solving problems that MS can't (software update for example) even with all their billions.
leet1 I wish you had come with something more I had hoped for a real debate about the inherent strengths and weaknesses of either platform but so far you have stated:
I have no clue about microsoft servers, I know about microsoft windows 3.1,98,xp pro/home products so I can't say anything involving servers.

You have not proved that mac is the better platform, but your not trying to here, just saying it. I could get my 56 year old dad in here to explain the 1,000 ways windows is better in the business world and for home users, but I'm not dragging him up the stairs for that, lol

Its gotta be another one of those 1D10T errors effecting ya man. Telling you, those things are terrible
k, forgeting that you can't configure a windows PC right for a printer, I'll move on from that.
This conversation was never about their servers. Its about their Windows XP OS or the PC platform in general.

The pc platform is excellent for any task that a mac is. Were talking windows here specifically though I guess. Windows is more than just a good game platform, but I will never get that point across here<being a mac forum and all > so I'll just stop there.

K, no reason to call names. Kinda childish don't you think? OSX being better than windows is an opinion. Yours, not mine. and I hope your not blaming that P4 2.4 being the reason your printers slow

First, learn to write your English is terrible (my apologies if you're an English as a Second Language student) if not maybe you should take a class. Second, I challenge you to say something about the PC or the Mac with actual information.
Maybe you should go wake up Dad.

[leet1]

Yes, english is my second languange, but this is a message board so don't critisize it, lol. If you can understand what I'm saying, then its fine. I'll work on my english, if you work on using that qoute button ;)

I'm doing a humanities project at the moment involving the opera Carmen, so kind of occupied, but not using that as an excuse.

That list was not reasons for windows users getting viruses, just the reason they have problems with the OS.

You talk about the updating of windows to be complicated and terrible, but actually, its very easy. Its automatic. "Would you like to download the update now" you click yes, it downloads in the background. I remember when SP1 slowed down performance of games, so yes, sometimes patches get screwed, I agree.


6. Yes, Outlook Express, one of the most awfully coded apps is the de facto standard on Windows and it has been noted for running .exe programs without users prompts.

Actually, Outlook express comes with all extensions turned off. It will not let you run a program unless you disable these extensions. Not sure where you got this from.

quick what's the difference between WinXP Pro and Home Edition?

Nothing that a regular user would notice ;)


leet1 I wish you had come with something more I had hoped for a real debate about the inherent strengths and weaknesses of either platform but so far you have stated

I'm sorry? Its preaching to the choir, not worth me trying to "teach" you that Windows is as good, and better in some areas over the Mac OS. Keep it clean, protected, and up to date and its as solid as a rock<I'm not going to make any generalized statements like a lot being said> for me.

[solvs]

Originally posted by leet1
not worth me trying to "teach" you that Windows is as good, and better in some areas over the Mac OS. Keep it clean, protected, and up to date and its as solid as a rock<I'm not going to make any generalized statements like a lot being said> for me.

Here's the difference. I also use Windows, I have to. I don't like it. I don't play a lot of games, have a PS2 if I do. Most Mac users have or are using Windows. They know how much it can suck. Most Windows people have never used Macs (esp. recent Macs). How many Windows people hate Windows? How many know how to make their computers secure? I do, but it's a hassle, and most don't. They just want their computers to work, which most of the time, Macs do.

Are they perfect? No. Better than Windows? I think so. And unlike some people, I base that on facts. Show me a Mac problem, and I'll show you countless times as many Windows problems. Do we have some zealots here? Yes, but mostly just trying to counteract the FUD from <ahem> trolls. You should do a search of the many things M$ has done. Guarantee that Apple look like saints compared. Not perfect, just better. But, more expensive and not as prevalent.

Audio/video/graphics/functionality in general, IMO better. I could be wrong, but... um... have you ever used a Mac?

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by tazo
I am so tired of this rabid zealotism that pervades even what I call a mac website standard like Macrumors.

To overlook this crucial fact is to be the worst kind of zealot: the uninformed.

Agreed.

"Most Mac users are nice. However, a certian percentage of them are crazy fanatics/zealots who believe that Apple is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and anything non-Apple is evil and must be destroyed.

The problem with Mac fanatics is that they do not realize that they are hurting the very thing they love so much. Being irrationally fanatical is certainly not an effective way to encourage more people to switch to Mac. Irrational fanaticism just scares reasonable people away from the Mac."

I find this quite fitting.

Tazo makes another good point in his second post as well. To rationalise the pros and cons is the only way to arrive at a conclusion as to which platform suits you best.
I use windows for the following main reasons:
1. Huge software and hardware base
2: Price
3: Games
4: Custom build + expandability

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by tazo
In all fairness I have owned my pc for 4 years and have yet to ever get a virus.

you know what:confused: me to:) Never had a virus.

In the end it all comes down to the hardware. The PowerPC vs x86. Each have their strenghts and weaknesses, IPC's, interger, floating point, etc... Let's just leave it:o

[edesignuk]

Originally posted by manitoubalck
you know what:confused: me to:) Never had a virus.

Ditto, get good antivirus (Norton Antivirus Corporate RULES!), keep it up to date (mine check automatically, daily), and you should have no problems.

[Rower_CPU]

manitoubalck-

You just don't get it do you?

Those 4 factors you list may be all that's important in a computer to you, but they aren't universals for everyone who uses a computer.

People choose Macs in spite of the things you list for lots of reasons:
[list=1]
Stability - XP comes a long way to closing this gap, but in my experience OS X is still way out in front
User interface - see above
Ease of use - see above
"True" PnP - see above
[/list=1]

And I'm sure there are more reasons that others have that I've left off.

A couple of things to keep in mind:
- Almost every Mac user has had to use a PC at some time in their life; the same cannot be said about PC users
- What do you think your reaction would be if an Intel fan came onto an AMD forum and told you how stupid you were for using AMD chips?

Food for thought...

[Mac til death]

Originally posted by shadowfax
what's a legal, useful use for a PC where it is distinctly better than a mac?


Accounting....

While Quickbooks is nice on the Mac, PC's are still dominant in the world of Accounting. It would be nice if Peachtree Accounting was ported to the Mac.


Other than that, I really can't think of any area where distinctly better.

[DillHarris]

Originally posted by hulugu
This is in a PC centric office, and the PC running Win2k just stalls sometimes and the Mac runs like a champ.
Now you're doing to tell me my IT department configured something wrong, yadda, yadda, yadda but the fact is I brought the PB in, plug it into the router and boom


I 100% agree with where you are coming from. Blame it on the IT guys or whatever... Every PC in our office jacks up this one thing I have to do. I bring in my PB, plug it in and <gasp> it JUST FREAKIN WORKS. Gets the job done. Nothing like having my Mac pull through in times of need. Also, its frustrating when you can't open word by double clicking the icon b/c you get an error saying it "has generated errors and will be closed by windows". Yet, if you open a saved word document, it opens alright. Win2k. I'm not impressed.

And I am in the camp that PCs are good, Macs are good (well better)... :p

[Mac til death]

I have also heard PC users (especially from my church) try and say there are no high quality Bible Software for Mac OS X.

I guess by high quality they mean software that you have to shell out a lot of money to get.

Of course there is MacSword (freeware), iBible (shareware), and a couple other free bible programs, but I didn't know of any really good commercial Bible software for Mac OS X.

The other day I happened upon Accordance.

This is just as good (if not better) than anything I've seen on the PC.

http://www.oaksoft.com

(I now see that the program was reviewed in Macworld, even though that's not where I heard of it)

[hulugu]

Originally posted by manitoubalck
Agreed.

"Most Mac users are nice. However, a certian percentage of them are crazy fanatics/zealots who believe that Apple is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and anything non-Apple is evil and must be destroyed.

The problem with Mac fanatics is that they do not realize that they are hurting the very thing they love so much. Being irrationally fanatical is certainly not an effective way to encourage more people to switch to Mac. Irrational fanaticism just scares reasonable people away from the Mac."

I find this quite fitting.

Tazo makes another good point in his second post as well. To rationalise the pros and cons is the only way to arrive at a conclusion as to which platform suits you best.
I use windows for the following main reasons:
1. Huge software and hardware base
2: Price
3: Games
4: Custom build + expandability

My original point before I managed to get into a raving froth with leet1 was that often times the wrong things are used to justify Windows over the Mac. Switching costs, as I said before, cuts both ways. So that can't be considered an advantage for either. But, I do agree that on your points the PC does beat the Mac, although software/hardware base sometimes seems like a disadvantage for the PC: there are some aweful choices out there, and price is often over-estimated, and the G4/G5 towers do allow the same kind of expandability that PCs have. These things do exist, but I think usability, TCO, and total lifetime of the computer should also be calculated in. There is a lot of information that needs to be considered when buying a computer and I think both have their advantages and disadvantages.
I wish leet1 and other pro-PCs users could give me some really good reasons why the PC is better than the Mac beyond the pure ubiquitous nature of the x86 platform, but IMHO I think that's all there is to the Wintel advantage, shear numbers.

[DillHarris]

Originally posted by Mac til death
I have also heard PC users (especially from my church) try and say there are no high quality Bible Software for Mac OS X.

I guess by high quality they mean software that you have to shell out a lot of money to get.

Of course there is MacSword (freeware), iBible (shareware), and a couple other free bible programs, but I didn't know of any really good commercial Bible software for Mac OS X.

The other day I happened upon Accordance.

This is just as good (if not better) than anything I've seen on the PC.

http://www.oaksoft.com

(I now see that the program was reviewed in Macworld, even though that's not where I heard of it)

I know someone who soley turned down buying an ibook for that reason. Wish I knew that earlier... Oh well...:rolleyes:

[leet1]

Originally posted by hulugu
I wish leet1 and other pro-PCs users could give me some really good reasons why the PC is better than the Mac beyond the pure ubiquitous nature of the x86 platform, but IMHO I think that's all there is to the Wintel advantage, shear numbers.


Why? you will never be convinced to buy one. Those four reasons + the many options of OS's to choose from and use are convincing enough for 95% of the people out there including me :rolleyes: I have an old 15mhz computer that still works running Windows 3.1. A computers like a car, you take care of it, it will last. Weither it be a mac or x86 machine.

[Rower_CPU]

It's funny how people toss around market share as if 100% of computers users were choosing PCs. In my experience, most people simply don't know that there's an alternative.

But if 95% of people using the same platform as you makes you feel more secure in your choice...*shrug*

[leet1]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
It's funny how people toss around market share as if 100% of computers users were choosing PCs. In my experience, most people simply don't know that there's an alternative.

But if 95% of people using the same platform as you makes you feel more secure in your choice...*shrug*


Of course it makes me feel secure! Being able to find a part or add-on in any electronics store is so damn nice.

I never said 100% I said 95%, just fyi. Prove that wrong and I will retract it.

I guess Apple just sucks at advertising or something since most don't know of an alternative. Maybe they should work on that.

[hulugu]

Originally posted by leet1
Why? you will never be convinced to buy one. Those four reasons + the many options of OS's to choose from and use are convincing enough for 95% of the people out there including me :rolleyes: I have an old 15mhz computer that still works running Windows 3.1. A computers like a car, you take care of it, it will last. Weither it be a mac or x86 machine.

Other OSs? Linux runs on PPC too, you can even partition a drive to have Linux (Debian, Mandrake, Yellow Dog) and OSX on the same machine. As for the old 15mhz running Windows 3.1, that's great I have a Mac Plus too but that doesn't really tell me much about a modern platform.
I was actually interested to hear your opinion about distinct advantages the Wintel/AMD/x86 solutions has over MacOS/PPC beyond their shear numbers. I don't think you can, and all of the reasons previously stated are just examples of that singular advantage. BTW, I apologize for any slight regarding your abilities in writing English however you might do very well to use spell check which will help you. I have to do the same thing when writing in French and Spanish.

[leet1]

Originally posted by hulugu
I was actually interested to hear your opinion about distinct advantages the Wintel/AMD/x86 solutions has over MacOS/PPC beyond their shear numbers.

What else is there to prove? Price, reliability, depending on what parts you buy or who you buy from, it can be just as stable, and faster. What more needs to be said?

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by leet1
Of course it makes me feel secure! Being able to find a part or add-on in any electronics store is so damn nice.

I never said 100% I said 95%, just fyi. Prove that wrong and I will retract it.

I guess Apple just sucks at advertising or something since most don't know of an alternative. Maybe they should work on that.

I didn't say you did.

But 95% of people using a particular product is not indicative of anything if 100% didn't "choose" their product.

[leet1]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
I didn't say you did.

But 95% of people using a particular product is not indicative of anything if 100% didn't "choose" their product.

In each of the electronic stores in my area, there are macs displayed, as well as PC's. Now explain how they don't have a choice?

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
manitoubalck-

You just don't get it do you?

Those 4 factors you list may be all that's important in a computer to you, but they aren't universals for everyone who uses a computer.

People choose Macs in spite of the things you list for lots of reasons:
[list=1]
Stability - XP comes a long way to closing this gap, but in my experience OS X is still way out in front
User interface - see above
Ease of use - see above
"True" PnP - see above
[/list=1]

And I'm sure there are more reasons that others have that I've left off.

A couple of things to keep in mind:
- Almost every Mac user has had to use a PC at some time in their life; the same cannot be said about PC users
- What do you think your reaction would be if an Intel fan came onto an AMD forum and told you how stupid you were for using AMD chips?

The reasons I gave were "MY" reasons for currently using a x86 machine, not GENERAL reasons why most of the world(~95%) uses x86 machines. I never mentioned AMD in this post, and if someone started gloating about the new intel Prescot core on www.amdzone.com as long as they REASONED WHY they thought the Prescot core was so much better than the Opteron core it WOULDN'T bother me, but rather make for CONSTRUCTIVE discussion, rather than blindness daming.

Tazo makes the point so clear that zeolite blindness and saying something is bad because it sucks, is just pointless.

As you mentioned there are REAL benifits of theb apple mac, as there are REAL benifits of the x86 platform, but currently the benifits of the apple mac are not strong enough to pull me over. Sorry;)

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by leet1
In each of the electronic stores in my area, there are macs displayed, as well as PC's. Now explain how they don't have a choice?

Not everyone has electronics stores that carry both, or electronics stores at all. Plus, there are lots of misconceptions about Macs in general that cause people to discount them as options.

They only see/use PCs at work, so that's what they get for their personal machine. People think Macs are just for kids/artists/whatever, so they get a PC that's more "business-like".

Or the simple sticker price puts up an artificial barrier and people don't consider long-term factors that even out the cost.

I can go on all day...

[Rower_CPU]

manitoubalck-

The reason I mentioned the AMD forum thing was to get you to see how the situation goes both ways. You have people on all kinds of forums who will lash out at any sort of opposition and those who will reason and discuss.

Just as you have people who visit forums just to cause problems and those who come for discussion.

[leet1]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
I can go on all day...


What long term factors out the cost? I can give you a million examples of dells, compaqs/hp's, toshibas, and even an E-machine! lasting for over 5 years, without the need of replacement parts, minus maybe adding some memory.

I'm talking sub $1,000 systems here

by the way, about the artistic thing and macs, I can't stand that. They either think that thats what they are for or that they are better than PCs for those kind of jobs.

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by hulugu
My original point before I managed to get into a raving froth with leet1 was that often times the wrong things are used to justify Windows over the Mac. Switching costs, as I said before, cuts both ways. So that can't be considered an advantage for either. But, I do agree that on your points the PC does beat the Mac, although software/hardware base sometimes seems like a disadvantage for the PC: there are some aweful choices out there, and price is often over-estimated, and the G4/G5 towers do allow the same kind of expandability that PCs have.

I agree there are many terible programs ot there, Hence I try before I buy(download the app) and then sometimes forget to buy:rolleyes: opps?.

My PC is 4 years old in Feb, and I won't lie to you; I've had problems, but in fixing thoses hardware and software glitches, and building and re-building my and other's machines several times (mostly just to swap cases, or building machines for friends) I have become a more informed user. I don't have the luxuray of calling up a help desk, I just have to nut it out myself.:)

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by leet1
What long term factors out the cost? I can give you a million examples of dells, compaqs/hp's, toshibas, and even an E-machine! lasting for over 5 years, without the need of replacement parts, minus maybe adding some memory.

I'm talking sub $1,000 systems here

by the way, about the artistic thing and macs, I can't stand that. They either think that thats what they are for or that they are better than PCs for those kind of jobs.

And I can turn around and give you examples of the Dells and Macs in the university labs I manage and how many hardware failures the Dells have had compared to the Macs. What's your experience with both platforms?

It's a fact that Apple does not try to compete for the low-end market. They simply cannot afford to challenge Dell on cheap plastic parts. ;)

[leet1]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
What's your experience with both platforms?

It's a fact that Apple does not try to compete for the low-end market. They simply cannot afford to challenge Dell on cheap plastic parts. ;)

Too much on a mac, lol

Cheep plastic parts that work and last.....I'm not seeing the bad side of this....:D

I think what you should have said was "They simply cannot afford to challenge Dell." and ended it there ;)

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
The reason I mentioned the AMD forum thing was to get you to see how the situation goes both ways. You have people on all kinds of forums who will lash out at any sort of opposition and those who will reason and discuss.

Just as you have people who visit forums just to cause problems and those who come for discussion.

Ahh, Rower, how right you are. I come here to discuss, not to plug. And it seems that the discussion part is the part you and Leet seem to be missing, you attack me, and you can't say that I don't give my reasons in my posts. I agree that Leet is a thawn but come on, don't you be so childish, your a Mod and should lead by example, not stoop to people like Leet's level.

[hulugu]

leet1 brings up an interesting point (I've decided to stop snarling at him and see where we can go with this).
Has anyone found a reliable source for marketshare data? Maybe even broken down by consumer/server/webserve. The only numbers I have found relate to specific sales, i.e. Apple's laptop sales versus the total number in that quarter (7% and number 5, just below IBM) pay attention leet1, and I believe there was a Netcraft survey that stated Linux/Apache servers consisted of 65%+ of the webserver market.
So, my question is, are almost all of these PCs being used in businesses? Homes? A mixture of the two.
I'm looking for real, verified statistics. Otherwise, the whole marketshare number seems at least as useful as anecdotal evidence.
I know that MS has often emphasized its total marketshare by using total copies shipped (this says nothing of products like VPC where you can run 4 versions of Windows and yet you didn't buy a Windows machine and are in fact using a Mac, nor does it note the copies languishing on store shelves, or the thousand of copies I'm sure were shipped with new PCs which were replaced with the various flavors of Linux as soon as buyers could.)
Plus, things to keep in mind, are we taking the total amount sold in a quarter, year, or are we also adding in legacy numbers. I would like some real data.

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
They simply cannot afford to challenge Dell on cheap plastic parts. ;)

What it with mac fans and DELL's, I wouldn't be caught dead using a DELL. Take the challenge build your own machine.:D

[leet1]

Originally posted by hulugu
leet1 brings up an interesting point (I've decided to stop snarling at him and see where we can go with this).
Has anyone found a reliable source for marketshare data?

I'm using the percent I usually see people saying on here. If you do find something, please post a link though. Home users, not business users is what I'm actually wondering about.

[hulugu]

Originally posted by manitoubalck
I agree there are many terible programs ot there, Hence I try before I buy(download the app) and then sometimes forget to buy:rolleyes: opps?.

My PC is 4 years old in Feb, and I won't lie to you; I've had problems, but in fixing thoses hardware and software glitches, and building and re-building my and other's machines several times (mostly just to swap cases, or building machines for friends) I have become a more informed user. I don't have the luxuray of calling up a help desk, I just have to nut it out myself.:)

That's my point, for important projects and data, I use my Mac because I can't call the help desk at home, I don't want to nut it out if there's a nice solution that runs all the time. I own an old Jeep and a Ford Focus SVT. Why? The Jeep is fun to tinker with, but if I have to get somewhere on time I drive the SVT. PCs are great to fiddle with, but when something absolutely must get done my PB rocks the house.

[leet1]

Originally posted by manitoubalck
What it with mac fans and DELL's, I wouldn't be caught dead using a DELL. Take the challenge build your own machine.:D


It is nice building your own machine. I've built my last three. Kind of a satisfaction. Think Dells just a Universal example used though lol.

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by hulugu
I know that MS has often emphasized its total marketshare by using total copies shipped

I'm pretty sure most of Asia (bootleg capital of the world) uses windows. That's a good 2.5billion people or so, howeer most wouldn't own a computer.

People don't want to speed $2000AUD on a computer in Australia, they want to spend less than $1000, and in this case apple can't compete. Not with the Big players (DELL, HP, etc...) they're just as bad, but with the local computer store who can peice together a system with DVD-ROM, CD RW, 60GB HDD, AMD 2500+, Gigabyte/MSI/ASUS motherboard, 512MD DDR333 RAM, Radeon 9000 and a case for around $900.

Apple can't compete with this because the cost of there overheads (shop location, advertising, Slick staff, etc) are just too high. Where I buy my parts the sales staff can hardly speak english, but when the cash is raised the prices fall.

Just a thought.

[Rower_CPU]

manitoubalck-
Calling me childish ain't a great way to make your point. ;)

My goal here is for you to see how your attitude and posts bring out the worst the forum has to offer. We've had plenty of PC trolls come through and we send them on their merry way when the get out of hand. For you to say, "Gee whiz, quit picking on me" comes off pretty weak. Nothing personal, you're just dealing with the shrapnel from those who have come before you. Try some other Mac sites (MacNN, SpyMac, etc.) and see how far you get. ;)

I bring up Dell because both Dell and Apple distribute systems and Dell is the number 1 PC distributor (along with HP, but they're new and have less of a history of copying Apple). Since you can't build a Mac from parts (without a whole lot of scouring eBay), it's not a valid comparison. Comparing apples to apples...

Oh yeah, and I've built 3 PCs, all AMD based. :p

[hulugu]

Originally posted by manitoubalck
I'm pretty sure most of Asia (bootleg capital of the world) uses windows. That's a good 2.5billion people or so, howeer most wouldn't own a computer.

People don't want to speed $2000AUD on a computer in Australia, they want to spend less than $1000, and in this case apple can't compete. Not with the Big players (DELL, HP, etc...) they're just as bad, but with the local computer store who can peice together a system with DVD-ROM, CD RW, 60GB HDD, AMD 2500+, Gigabyte/MSI/ASUS motherboard, 512MD DDR333 RAM, Radeon 9000 and a case for around $900.

Apple can't compete with this because the cost of there overheads (shop location, advertising, Slick staff, etc) are just too high. Where I buy my parts the sales staff can hardly speak english, but when the cash is raised the prices fall.

Just a thought.

I was also under the impression that China was making its own OS, and many places were beginning to accept Linux instead.

[Rower_CPU]

*nix variants are starting to become much more widely used in Asia and Europe as countries find MS' agreements to be undesirable.

FYI, there are versions of Linux that run on Macs, too. So much for the "no choice in OS" theory...

[leet1]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
So much for the "no choice in OS" theory...

Just not as many ;)

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
manitoubalck-
Calling me childish ain't a great way to make your point. ;)

My goal here is for you to see how your attitude and posts bring out the worst the forum has to offer. We've had plenty of PC trolls come through and we send them on their merry way when the get out of hand. For you to say, "Gee whiz, quit picking on me" comes off pretty weak. Nothing personal, you're just dealing with the shrapnel from those who have come before you. Try some other Mac sites (MacNN, SpyMac, etc.) and see how far you get. ;)

I didn't say stop picking on me, I said just don't attack me for no good reason. Feel free to point out holes in my arguments and drill them home.
On this fourm Not once have I said Windows is better than OS X, and not once have I said that x86 is better than the PowerPC. I endeavour to offer fair and informed comments, not wild accusations. I offer a different opinion to most, yes; but I back up what I choose to say, and attempt to respond to any CONSTRUCTIVE comments in an effort for others to undertand my position.

Rower have a look at this...
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45519
Post 14 from maxvamp is the first person to constructivly tell me why they belive the AMD chips are flawed. He makes many good points, many of which I agree with. I can accept the critsism because they offers an informed opinion into why the intel chips are more advanced than the AMD chips. I could easily argue the other way but that would be out of place on this fourm.

P.S: your proviking tactics aren't working.

[Rower_CPU]

Yes, statements such as "mac users don't know better" and your sig are very informed and constructive. :rolleyes:

Who's provoking who here?

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Yes, statements such as "mac users don't know better" and your sig are very informed and constructive. :rolleyes:

Who's provoking who here?

I can't remember saying 'mac users don't know better,' I changed my sig to something more to your tastes:D

[Sun Baked]

** grabs popcorn **

This is almost like watching shrek (the member) again. :p

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by manitoubalck
I can't remember saying 'mac users don't know better,' I changed my sig to something more to your tastes:D

I was paraphrasing some of your posts along these lines:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=545288#post545288
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=557926#post557926

And yes, I'd say the sig fits this discussion quite nicely.

[manitoubalck]

Unlike Rower; you see the lighter side Sun Baked,

Rower, No and no,
The post in 3U Xserve was expalined and the other post about burnig CD's was to make a point about not only using apple software.

[Rower_CPU]

I do see the lighter side, and if you knew who he was referring to, you probably wouldn't be.

In both those cases you were neither being informative nor constructive and your comments were along the lines of "mac users don't know better", unless I'm not understanding some vagaries of Australian english.

As it is, this is way OT and unnecessary for public discussion. Let's not pursue this further.

[asphalt-proof]

Since the Cubs lost the Pennant, I feel that for my mental health's sake, to find something to hate. Because I use a Dell laptop at work with XP professional and has caught a cold not once, but twice last May, I have decided, strictly medicinal purposes, to hate MS. I also blame MS for slow download speeds, printer errors, sunspots, high humidity, and demonic possessions. There.... I have said it: Microsoft is the sole arbiter of eeviil of the world. Feel free to hate. No go on and take on the day!:cool:

[asphalt-proof]

I was just telling my wife how much I love my new iMac. I have used PCs since my Vic20 when I was 10 years old. I always felt like I had to futz with it. In fact, that was what made it difficult for me to "switch". I understood Windows and how to tweak it to my liking. I worried that I would be hopelessly lost going over to a Mac. When I got the computer home and booted up. I found out really quickly that I didn't need to play with the settings or preferences. It "just worked". (Is it just me or has this catch phrase become overworked?) I was really impressed. In fact, I am verturing into Applescripts territory now (Anybody know of a good book to teach myself with). I am so facinated with this program. Is my iMac slower than my 2gHz Dell lapop? I don't know. Does the lack of expansion bother me? No but I have owned laptps for the past 5 years so lack of expansion is no big deal. What about games? I love to play games, but my iMac plays Unreal 2003 very well as well as Diablo 2. I am happy. Besides, I will probably buy a PS2 this Winter. Bottom line FOR ME: my iMac has made computing more fun. I love to sit in front of my computer and... play. I don't have that exprience with my 'other' computer.

By the way, I think that it is kind of cheap to blame the user of the OS for all of its problems. Bill Gates did this a couple of days ago by saying that all of Windows problems can be traced back to the user. It seems to me that an open port exploitation that shuts down a large protion of the 'net is a result of bad coding and not a user issue. If I want to ENSURE that I never get a bug, then I need to spend a 20-30 minutes a day at the MS website downloading the lastest security patch. That is a problem. I blame poor coding. I don't remember whose sig. it is but it states some thing about Micorsoft's ability to get people to expect mediocrity in their OS. I think that hits the nail on the head.

Am I a mac zealot. I don't think so. But I am very happy with my recent purchase. To each his own I guess. But please stop blaming the user for problems that should be attributed to the poor quality of the OS.

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by asphalt-proof
[B]I also blame MS for slow download speeds, printer errors, sunspots, high humidity, and demonic possessions. There.... I have said it: Microsoft is the sole arbiter of eeviil of the world.[B]

Rower, While he is no doubt joking my point stands strong, but I do agree that the post saying"Crawl out from underneath your shell" was uncalled for, however the other one was on topic and relivant.

Time to call it a day, I'll agree on that to. Until next post, good day:) This ones just for you:D

[solvs]

Originally posted by manitoubalck
As you mentioned there are REAL benifits of the apple mac, as there are REAL benifits of the x86 platform, but currently the benifits of the apple mac are not strong enough to pull me over. Sorry;)

I kinda have a newfound respect for you for the first part. But the second part has me wondering why you (and leet, and Aiden, and others) bother coming here. If you know that Apple is not for you, why are you here? This has been asked, I know, and kind-of answered, but really... why bother?

Leet, you say you've used a Mac... and it's not for you. Ok. But it is for us. You see, this is MacRumors. We come here to talk about Apple (and complain about them when they p*ss us off). Some of us even dislike M$ for various reasons. Most of them valid. Most of the time when someone says something wrong, we correct them. Most of us use both.

So, I guess all I'm saying is if you like PCs (Vlade, I'm looking at you), and/or don't like Apple, can you at least admit that there may be a reason we actually like them? Maybe Windows doesn't do it for us. Maybe there are people out there that would actually like Apple if they had a chance to see what they had to offer over Windows.

Most of us are very familiar with what PCs have to offer, thank you very much, some of us just think Macs are better (at least, for some things).

[leet1]

Originally posted by solvs
But the second part has me wondering why you (and leet, and Aiden, and others) bother coming here. If you know that Apple is not for you, why are you here?

I like to keep up on both sides of the computer worlds. :D

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by leet1
I like to keep up on both sides of the computer worlds. :D

You've posted nearly 50 times in two days? I'd say you like to bag one side and complain about the other? Don't you have anything better to do?

[hulugu]

Hey leet1 I thought you were going to tell me why the PC was any good in your opinion and couldn't a smart pro-PC guy like you find some marketshare data.
Besides, I think home and pro markets should tell us where all these computers are going and whether or not Apple is a true niche player or a jack-of-all-trades.
BTW, for everyone, I don't mind people like leet1 posting their pro-PC opinion it keeps the fire in our bellies so to speak.
Also, Dell/HP/etc. are the only way to compare the PC to Apple because to use the home-built numbers is grossly unfair. I know everyone who has built a PC has done so for around 900, but that's just raw parts cost, that doesn't add in the cost of your time, which if its a hobby you're basically working for free, otherwise you have to account for the number of hours you're working to build this machine as part of the overall cost.
Plus, you can't build a laptop or an all-in-one anyways.

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by hulugu
Also, Dell/HP/etc. are the only way to compare the PC to Apple because to use the home-built numbers is grossly unfair. I know everyone who has built a PC has done so for around 900, but that's just raw parts cost, that doesn't add in the cost of your time, which if its a hobby you're basically working for free, otherwise you have to account for the number of hours you're working to build this machine as part of the overall cost.

Agreed but I also build comuters for family friends, and anyone elso who pays me a $50AUD build fee, + the labour charge of installing the sofware they want. Total cost is usually around $90 for a complete custom build machine. Still works out cheaper than buying a DELL/HP or wahtever from a 'glossy' department store.

If I could buy the parts for a mac
~$1300AUD for a G5 2GHz,
~$600AUD for the MOBO
(Prices are VERY rough guesses)
I would, I just don't want to pay a premium for all the other parts, eg RAM, Optical and harddrives etc...

[leet1]

Originally posted by hulugu
Plus, you can't build a laptop or an all-in-one anyways.


Well....you can build a laptop, but when i priced it, I wouldn't have ended up saving much at all.

You basically buy a shell that includes lcd/board/optical drive/keyboard/battery and you go shopping for cpu/hard drive/ memory.

Ended up just buying a Compaq, after rebates only cost $800 with a 2 year warrantee.

[Sabenth]

have to agree here i spent a lot of time sorting out my PC from day one picking the case picking the right mother board picking the right sound card video card etc etc granted i did this all of my own back i dont do factory lines yet but iam getting there lol .. I spend roughly 4 hours at anyone time sorting out all the bits and bobs to get a system from the ground upwords. take in the times of formating drive installing OS'S Softwrae etc its a fair old amount of time.

A Mac also takes some time to install software as well abot an hour at least for most people for any OS i maybe wrong on older OS's as ive only ever used 10.2

but i do like the Mac for its all in one systems easy to get to memory but as for other bits in an all in one system bit tricky but it can be done and its satasfying to watch . only watched one apple fixer and what i saw i Liked not to messy not packed just right the way PC should be..

Over all There is only one major diffrince between Macs and PCs thats the names that are on the Cases lol

[krossfyter]

is there a cliff notes for this thread? ;)

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by krossfyter
is there a cliff notes for this thread? ;)

Sorry, mi amigo, joo got to read the whole thing. ;)

[Dippo]

Die Thread DIE!