Do or Die for Apple in July ...

[Recoil]

AMD is going to come out with there new hammer chip sets in october . They will have PCI-X ,AGP 8x ,Hypertransport tunnels running thoughout the board running dual 2Ghz . It will be 30% faster clock for clock then current AMD chips with a PR rateing of 3400 . I do digital audio and macs just can't keep up with PC anymore in DSP . It's going to be a sad day when I have to boot up windows XP because apple can't get there speeds up . Mhz does mean something "It's not everything but it still counts" .
If apple want's more then 5% of the market then they need to do more . Sad how long has ddr been out? How long has ATA100 been out? Now apple just came out with it on there 3.5k servers. Sorry but that is not going to WIN people over to apple.

I have hope that apple will do something with moto . I just won't pay 3k for a computer that is 2 years behind AMD .

I will give apple until july to to change there view on power users. People in the digital audio world are looking at AMD very hard and most of the people I know have already moved over to AMD chips and are very happy with it .

I'm not trolling . I own a G4 500mhz and love it . It has made me alot of money . I just want apple to show up to the game in july or AMD will get my money from now on. do or die.

[arn]

In a lot of ways you're right...

and Apple seems to be aware of it... I think in their financial results conference they mentioend that a lot of pro users were waiting to upgrade...

The problem is that it's not entirely up to Apple. Motorola has to increase the capabilities on their G4's...

That being said, processor speed isn't everything... and I think Apple's current plan along with Mac OS X seems to be a very appealing solution.

arn

[Geert]

If it were a dual G4 you had I would have bought it for a fair price, so you could purchase that AMD thingie, but it's not a dual so stick with it hehehe:D

[Mr. Anderson]

Your frustration is understandable, and most likely shared by all the professionals here using their macs for high end production apps. Apple is in a hole and they need to climb out of it, not using a ladder, but something a little faster, say a rocket pack.

But if you look at the other thread, showing that Apple is having discounts on the current crop of G4 desktops till July 7th, that says that something new is in the works for MWNY. Now what would you be willing to settle for? Most likely you're not going to get a machine that will beat a dual 2 GHz AMD, but something that will definitely be much faster than what we've seen on the desktop to date. The XServe sets a good example, a new mobo, faster memory, these can be expected.

So, what would you settle for?

[iGav]

Apple won't die in July.........

And judging by Apple's movements in DV and Post software...... (Post and HDTV work, makes audio look like powerpoint in terms of power needed!!) and with certain hi-end creative companies shifting over to mac's, I'd say that Apple have some serious hardware in the pipeline....... ;)

[sjs]

I'm not a pro user, so my response is more from a marketing standpoint: what I think Apple must do at a minimum to make the pro market happy and get some positive attention.

1. Dual G4s at 1.4 ghz withh DDR that works at that speed with the processor.

2. OSX made to run more efficiently ( = faster).

3. OSX with further improvement due to Quartz Extreme.

All combined I'd suspect that would provide OVER 50% faster machines, maybe much more than that in certain applications.

However, this just buys time til MWSF at which point if there is no G5 you are going to see people really mad and going to the AMD and Intel products which will be already on the market. It seems to be accepted that G4 peaks at about 1.5 ghz, which would correspond to an Fall 2002 timeframe. That leaves Jan 03 MWSF with nowhere to take G4...hence enter G5.

It is very interesting to watch Apple's broad strategy unfold with machines and operating systems. Its really quite brilliant, and frankly gives me hope that they can "take off" with consumers, scientists, artists and maybe education. (business - not yet).

It would be ironic if the only part of the strategy Apple fails in is the one part of the equation they do not control: processors.

You just HAVE to believe that SJ is not unaware of what Motorola has coming and when. To get ambushed would really be inexcusable from a business standpoint.

[Recoil]

Thanks for not bashing me . I love macs and yes I am a little frustrated by moto and apple . I should have cleared up a few things before so you can see the world though my eyes .

In the audio world DSP is key to getting things to run in realtime . I have been waiting for to long to upgrade my G4 to a dual 1.5Ghz or 2.0Ghz I can't wait any longer . It's not a personal issue it's a biz , time and money issue . I would be very happy with a dual G4 1.4Ghz So I will wait until july and see if moto can bring it to me .

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by Recoil
Thanks for not bashing me . I love macs . I should have cleared up a few things before so you can see the world though my eyes .

In the audio world DSP is key to getting things to run in realtime . I have been waiting for to long to upgrade my G4 to a dual 1.5Ghz or 2.0Ghz I can't wait any longer . It's not a personal issue it's a biz , time and money issue . I would be very happy with a dual G4 1.4Ghz So I will wait until july and see if moto can bring it to me .

The dual 1.4 should be reasonable for MWNY. But it would most likely be the high end machine that wouldn't be available for several months, so your delivery time frame might be September anyway. Always need to take that into consideration. I hope you get what you're looking for.:D

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by iGAV
Apple won't die in July.........

And judging by Apple's movements in DV and Post software...... (Post and HDTV work, makes audio look like powerpoint in terms of power needed!!) and with certain hi-end creative companies shifting over to mac's, I'd say that Apple have some serious hardware in the pipeline....... ;)

I agree, but Apple is currently catering more to the video crowd than to the audio crowd. I mean, FCP and DVDSP are very strong sellings points for the Mac, even if the hardware is dated. But the audio side doesn't have anything tempting them to stay Mac. If FCP and DVDSP didn't exist I think we see video people start looking away from Apple too.


Lethal

[phantommaul]

Thanks for not bashing me

thats another thing i like on apple users they are real gentleman :)) boy i really want a TiBook

[Funkatation]

I don't even know what it is... There are no posted specs of a desktop G5, so why are we speculating on it?

[barkmonster]

Admittedly, my philosophy on buying a new mac is down to whatever cash I have at the time vs how much real speed gain over my current one vs how long it will last before I start wanting to replace it.

I've seen some pretty impressive leaps in performance on the regular "Dave C test" benchmarks on Digidesign User Conference.

I can get 6 tracks out of my beige G3 with a lot of tweaking, a 400Mhz G4 could only manage 9, now we're seeing 24 tracks out of the dual 800 G4s and yet the Athlon systems are well into the 40s. These are obviously tracks with a selection of 5 cpu intensive plug-ins on each one, it wouldn't be much use if it wasn't a cpu bound test.

Give us more bandwidth, faster CPUs with an even better IPC than the current G4 and I think we'll be able to get that kind of performance out of our macs. Of course with the new AMD chips coming out we might only just match the speed of the current Athlon XP chips if we're lucky and then AMD will bring out the hammer (is it called opteron now ?) and we'll be back to square one again.

On the subject of IPC, why do there seem to be a sudden increase in PC benchmarks ratings with Dhystone 2.1 ?

When the Pentium 4 came out I found a site that did a thorough test of the 1.4Ghz chip and it only got 1850MIPS, now we're seeing results from some different benchmarks suite and the 1.6 is getting over 3000 MIPS while the newer ones are nearer 5000 with the 2.4Ghz chips. It seems slightly dishonest to me.

You can look at any G3 or G4 CPU from motorola and see it handles at least 2.3 Instructions per clock cycle, with the speed ratings they're using for PCs these days you'd think a 1.6 Ghz P4 was actually 60% faster than a 1.4, which incidentally only works out at mere 1.3 Instructions per clock cycle.

I've found consistent AMD results hard to find but the Athlon seems close to about 2 instructions per clock cycle leaving the P4 way behind and being virtually the same as a G4 at the same clock speed.

I know for me, all I want is a siginificantly faster mac that will last me 3 years or so before it needs replacing, I think Apple need to be putting the fastest CPUs in all pro models, no scrimping on cache either, that way, with enough of a boost, at least they might have a chance of making a mac that can compete with what's out there already.

[King Cobra]

Isn't there already a problem with PCs and dual processors? My theory (actually someone else's) with PCs and dualies: double the speed means double the crashes. Who originally thought that up? Clever...

And if there is a dual 2.x GHz chip for the PC THAT ACTUALLY WORKS, then Apple will need to create something rather fast to compete. That goes without question. Just what will we see in July?
__________________

Any time is a great time for iPod.

[spuncan]

I've never examined the Spec testing closely but my guess is that intel made it so there chips do very well by incorperating the parts needed to get outstanding scores to impress techies. I read a PC sites review (anandtech) of the P4 they said the 2.4ghz model was equivalent to a 1.7ghz PIII (impossible to create but is equivalent) I think hmm the G4 would be much faster that a G3 along with a Athlon/Duron test. As for apple they desperately need to kick moto's @$$ into gear. Or get a new CPU company to compete against the moto chips (still using altivec)
Last Rev.G4 MWNY
1.0,1.2,1.4GHZ G4 CPU
Nvidia radeon 8500,4mx,4 ti GPU
DDR Ram same spec as server (233mhz (rambus same speed as my cpu :) )) 2.1ghz max)
Rest of Mobo same as the Xserver.

G5 Rev. A MWSF
1.4,1.6,1.8 GHZ
Nvidia radeon 8500,4mx,4 ti GPU
DDR Ram (266mhz 2.1ghz max) (CPU Integrated :D WÔÔT )
64-32 bit hybrid
PCI-X
Rapid IO
.13soi
Symmetric Processors

[Grokgod]

I find this thread interesting and felt little desire to bash. that freaking dudes head in!

oh no, I mean... thank you for bringing up this issue.

Audio is of great import to me also, and I am distressed by the current mac state of hardware as I think we all are.

And though i think that there is little that can be said in the defense of Apple
when you consider that the numbers just dont lie.

I will say this, I own a P4 2.2, bought it because it had the smaller die cast and ran cooler and various other decent specs and that i need one for work to deal with the stinkin scientists at the university.

I hate my Pcheese its the worst thing ever and I can safely say that I wish that i hadnt bought it. Despite the fact that it runs Acid well and a bunch of great audio apps with a lot of plugs and tracks. Its still damn unstable and winxp is very intrusive and demanding! Cripes , i hate XP, really!

Yes, it goes fast, very fast maybe thats why it crashs at least twice a session.
Its going so fast that it can't steer out of the way of those byte walls or something.

But even when it is running well. in the back of my head, I always think
" When Apple gets the hardware its gonna be awesome! and kick the hell out of this crap, that i paid too much for."

The Pcheese makes me money thats true but for personal use, I get on my imac or soon to arrive Ti powerbook. Because its a pleasure to compute on these machines and there is the great promise of more to come.

That arrival will soon show its colors and when it does, I believe that it will spell the end of the Pcheese.

Wintel days are numbered!

I can see the writing on the wall, its coming. Wintel has gone to far with their abusive methods on Xp. Apple will soon become hareware enabled and when that happens, the full potential of OSX will blossom and end this reign of mediocrity. When the hardware is close enough, the issue will become the OS and when that happens.
Well , its obvious.
XP will be murdered by its creators in the name of mercy.

So in closing, I understand your frustration, I feel for you oh brother.
Yet, let not temptation lead you to follow the well worn path of immediate gratification, that way lies madness.

Or just build yourself a cheap a$$ Athalon system to tide you over till Apple gets its Sh$T together. Then you can jump back on board after having tasted the juice of a harlet!

<was that over the top?>

[Beej]

Someone says that before every Mac World. And Apple is still here.

Will they die if they don't perform in July? You do the math.

[Macmaniac]

Apple must release at least a 1.4ghz at MWNY or we are in big doo-doo. Also a faster bus speed is a must(200-300mhz) and they shoudl have these machines ready to ship. Of course 10.2 might come with these! I think we will see 1.2 and 1.4ghz duals.
Lets hope!

[kidtronix]

can always hope but have you ever seen apple upgrade a pm with 400mhz?

[b8rtm8nn]

I'm interested in the next chip also. I remember Intel dumping money into BeOS so they could have a decent OS to show off their processor capability. I wonder if AMD or Intel is wooing Mac to be the sole provider. Both of them would love to have something better than Windows to show their muscle to end-users.

[arn]

Originally posted by kidtronix
can always hope but have you ever seen apple upgrade a pm with 400mhz?

I agree... people always talk about huge leaps of mhz...

but in the past 6 months, mhz jumped 133mhz (867->1ghz)

1/01 -> 7/01 we went from 733 -> 867mhz (133mhz).

I think prior to that, we were stuck around 500-550 mhz for a while.

So... really, the next jump may only be 1ghz - >1.13ghz (133 mhz jump)


arn

[Kid Red]

What kills me about posts about Apple's future is bleak, or Moto sucks, and Apple is behind everyone by 15 years, etc, is that they all say "I want to upgrade my G4 450 to a G5 8ghz but fear Apple won't have it ready so i will jump ship"

Firstly, get the fricking latest machine then sit their and tell me it's slow and 30 years behind everyone. The people that bitch are on the slowest machines that aren't even produced anymore.

Upgrade before you bitch, because if you did, you wouldn't bitch, at least not as much.
(Now I'll go back to my spiffy dual gig and finish working)

[sjs]

quote:


Originally posted by kidtronix
can always hope but have you ever seen apple upgrade a pm with 400mhz?





I agree... people always talk about huge leaps of mhz...

but in the past 6 months, mhz jumped 133mhz (867->1ghz)

1/01 -> 7/01 we went from 733 -> 867mhz (133mhz).

I think prior to that, we were stuck around 500-550 mhz for a while.

So... really, the next jump may only be 1ghz - >1.13ghz (133 mhz jump)


arn
_______________________________________________


Here is the math: to keep up with the Mr. Moore's concept of doubling every two years you have to bump speeds by 40% per year. By MWNY it will have been almost 6 months since they hit 1 ghz, so theoretically this could translate to 1.2 ghz in NY and to 1.4 ghz in SF 03 then about 1.7 in NY 03 and finally 2.0 ghz in SF 04. (I am ignoring the obvious fact that new generation chips will come along.)

But when you are behind in this game of processor speed, if you "keep up" you only get further behind. If Apple goes to 1.4 ghz at MWSF 03, by then Pentiums will be at 3 ghz. By MWSF 04 if Apple hits 2 ghz, Pentiums will be at 4.2 ghz.

Don't bash me, I know a million things can change in the interim, I am just saying if Arn is right about 1.13 ghz at NY, look out. Pentiums will probably be at 2.6 ghz and I am just saying that the way the PC world looks at things this will be considered a very feeble effort on Apple's part.

[Grokgod]

That was funny <snicker>

[Paolo]

Everyone talks as though apple don't know that the market is getting a little ahead. Do you really think that apple has a marketing department just for show?(unlikely) or do you think that they actually are reading the market and working on a specific direction to head the IT industry... You are forgetting that if apple finds it's self completely out classed by all it's competition it will just create an entire new market, and excel there. Apple has the will and the way... so stop talking aobut all this crap that apple is going to die, or fall behind etc.... They've been through worse than this before and come through with flying colors (imacs).

[iGav]

Originally posted by Kid Red

Firstly, get the fricking latest machine then sit their and tell me it's slow and 30 years behind everyone. The people that bitch are on the slowest machines that aren't even produced anymore.

Upgrade before you bitch, because if you did, you wouldn't bitch, at least not as much.
(Now I'll go back to my spiffy dual gig and finish working)

Heh heh..... that is true........ :D ;) :p

I do wish I had a spiffy dual ghz machine as a renderer........ :( :D

[agreenster]

This is why I love MacRumors. Whenever a MacWorld is rolling around, we always have this debate about people jumping ship if Apple doesnt 'perform,' but then the rest of the months we drool about how much we want the latest Mac.

Anyway, humor aside. I am slightly worried about AMD's Hammer because it is a 64 bit chipset, which rocks the G4 whichever way you cut it. The reason people are drooling so much over wanting a G5, is because it is speculated that it will also have a 64 bit processor. DDR, Front Side Bus lag and hypertransport are other issues Apple needs to look at, but by and large they need a processor upgrade.

I dont think Apple is going to 'do or die' in July. I also dont think they are 'falling behind' as bad as we think. Even though the numbers of Intel and AMD chips are skyrocketing, it still doesnt show that much in the actual processing. In other words, a dual 1gHz G4 still competes heavily with a 2.2gHz P4.

Still, it would be nice to see a Processor War between the AMD Hammer, Intel Itanium2, and the G5.

[groovebuster]

Originally posted by Kid Red
Firstly, get the fricking latest machine then sit their and tell me it's slow and 30 years behind everyone. The people that bitch are on the slowest machines that aren't even produced anymore.

Upgrade before you bitch, because if you did, you wouldn't bitch, at least not as much.
(Now I'll go back to my spiffy dual gig and finish working)

Relax! Fact is, that some people (like me) didn't upgrade their Mac so far, because they always expected something big has to come soon to keep up with the performance of PCs. In fact there are jobs besides word-processing that need all the power you can get for an acceptable price.

I wanted to upgrade to a fast(!) Mac since End of 2000. Unfortunately Apple never closed the performnance gap between their machines and PCs. So I ended up to buy a G4 Quicksilver 733, because I couldn't wait any longer to upgrade my Mac. But I didn't want to spend all my money for a dual processor machine, that is just as fast a single processor AMD on most tasks. And why? Because I (and also a lot of other people) was awaiting something big to come within 6 months. So I put the saved money into a fast PC. Just fast, no DVD drive bull-***** or other needless gadgets. And let me tell you, for 2000$ you get a really nice machine already which is still faster than any Mac. So overall I spend the same money for 2(!!!!) computers. Not to mention, that the power of the two machines is adding up in some cases. So now the 6 months are over since about 3 months and Apple still didn't come with something worth to invest the money in for pros.

Don't get me wrong, I hate Windows, but at the moment my PC is the box doing most work to pay the diapers for my daughter, not my Mac.

As soon as Apple can compete again speedwise I am willing to spend my money for a DP Mac... but 'til then I just take what gets my work done faster.

So be careful with outbursts like that! I totally understand that people don't want to spend the same prize for half the speed. It's a question of staying competetive (If I need almost double the time for some stuff it is not a little problem anymore and time is money!!!) and to have budgets for new investments that have to be planned carefully. At least for me money isn't growing on trees. But if there is anyone who has too much of it, I am open-minded to adoption! :D ;)

I really hope that Apple can surprise us very soon. If not I'll stick with the slution I have now. Tasks that need not much processor power on the Mac, high perfomance tasks on the PC.

Regards,

groovebuster

[Grokgod]

I think that I can add a pertinent thought here.

Comparing the newest highest end P4 to the 1Gig MAC or your G3 is rather silly.
Comparing the cpus latest and greatest and what will be out in the next year or after that is also silly.

Why? well because very few will run out and buy every single new release from every company. You go out and buy a P4 2.2 and then in a few whatever
YARNs, < taken from Farscape > there will be another new chip. you going to buy that right away also?
No, your not. Then the next release excetera. Only those that dont have a computer or are still running a G3 can have the luxury to look at the latest and greatest for purchases and the minute that they buy they are left behind in a dust of envy and remorse.

That brings me to the usual theory, does it work for you.
When i was working on a 100 htz way back when.
I would dream of 1 gigers, wow what a machine that would be, I would think.
I would accomplish so much, it would be so beautiful. what in the world more than that would I need.
Well , we always need more because bloatware is here to stay and processes become more complex etc.

If speed is a element that is always changing, then it is a variable that is unattainable! Other elements must be sought after and I think that Apple is creating those elements for us to a large degree.

Useability, beauty and grace are in these man made machines as much as an act of man can create within the confines of mass manufacturing. These things will improve with time, still yet.

I bought a new 800 Ti, yesterday. Depsite the fact that there are faster laptops out there. The new SOI chip was a decent enough crest of the wave for me, and i bought in.

When DDr comes out this summer on the PowerMacs, I will buy one.
Its on an acceptable crest of tech for me with the release of DDRam and improved speeds and the new Quartz Extreme.
A 1.4 and DDr will do a Mac great, despite the 2.4 p4's that are out.
Despite the fact that I plan on doing high end rendering and video editing on my Mac.
Despite the fact that the Pcheese has a faster chip etc.
Whatever the MAC can do I will work with because as we all know we are buying more than merely the cpu, its the Mac experience and what we can create with it.

If its rendering is slow at times, well I will do what I have always done and would have to do on any machine, walk away and live my life, not in waiting but in confidence that its being done.

[agreenster]

Excellent thoughts GrokGod, and your point is probably well taken by many (if not all) people here at MacRumors.

However, I think the reason many people compare the DP 1gHz Mac to the 2.2gHz P4 is because it is a fair test based on numbers, timeline, and newest technology. No, a handful of people keep up with the latest and greatest and buy right away. But the point is, they are just trying to make a fair comparison based on the date both machines came out, their numeric mHz rating, etc.

But I do love what you say in your last thought: Live your life, knowing that the work is getting done.

[Chetwood]

Originally posted by Grokgod
Cripes , i hate XP, really!

Yes, it goes fast, very fast maybe thats why it crashs at least twice a session. Its going so fast that it can't steer out of the way of those byte walls or something.


LOL! That was cool!

[peterjhill]

Originally posted by Recoil
AMD is going to come out with there new hammer chip sets in october . They will have PCI-X ,AGP 8x <snip>

but you can't run OS X on AMD chips. I like my PB800, it gives me bsd+MSOffice all native.

I can't bear to run Windows if I can help it. Work is giving me a PC desktop to supplement my Tibook, but since I probably won't touch it much, I'll probably install Linux on it and stick it behind a filing cabinet, hopefully it will be quiet.

I can use X and ssh tunnelling to use the machine.

Yeah, AMD, whatever, it's nice, sure. Apple is doing fine. They are competitive. When Jaguar comes out, I'll be even happier.

[wwworry]

Don't you think the people at Apple know what they are doing? Hasn't the past few years demonstrated their skill and forward thinking? Have a little respect why don't you! Only an idiot would think that they are not aware of the speed issues and are not doing what they CAN to solve them.

[Drewz]

:confused:

Why do u think people buy Apple stuff .....??

For their software or Hardaware ........ ??

think about it ......???

[ces1965]

For audio applications, like software synths, there is a real need for speed, speed, speed. The software in most cases runs on both mac and PC. It's not like video, with Final Cut Pro. So, it is hard being a mac audio user in the current situation.

The only problem with XP is there's simply more problems. Windows is a piece of ****, plain and simple. I recently upgraded to XP, and I guess I though it would be some movement forward. It's still windows!!!! With c: drives, etc. I don't think they changed much at all, except it's more intrusive and I have to buy multiple copies.

And the plethora of hardware on the PC side, while yielding low prices through competition, has a serious dark side because you never know if it will work or have some conflict.

I finally got rid of 95% of the crackling sound with audio apps on my PC by updating the bios (booting from a floppy was required, more PC MS-DOS dark ages crap). To get rid of the remaining crackling, last night I tried to update the bios on my SCSI card. Now XP gets half way through booting and just dies. Time to wipe the drives and reinstall ****ing everything, and hope that works.

The PC is cheaper only when you don't factor in the extra time you spend fixing things and the years the PC takes off your life. Maybe your're lucky and nothing goes wrong. But remember - you got lucky. Also, you need to factor in the cost of any time you spend trying to figure out what components to buy and putting it all together. My XP installation actually went pretty smooth because I spent a lot of time (10-20 hours) researching the parts. I'm not sure I'd buy a gateway or dell for audio.

Oh yeah, PCs are like ****ing air conditioners they run so loud, so they're not so great playing quite piano pieces. OK, so you can make them quieter, but I had to order a new power supply and quieter fans ($150) to do that because I finally couldn't take the racket anymore.

I'm just waiting a little to buy a new mac because I sense big improvements are coming soon and the PC will get me by on audio for a while. There's not much OS X audio stuff yet anyway.

Another question. PC folks have had a nice run with the competiton between intel and AMD. But AMD has to price below intel and is losing money. I read intel is ready to put more pressure on AMD by lowering prices for CPUs in the 1.7 to 2 range. What if AMD goes under? Then the runup in PC performance might stop or moderate.

[Grokgod]

That was right on the spot!

If I could factor all the time in that I used up trying to get the damn Pcheese to work, I think that it must equal at least the amount of time I spent working on projects. Some people enjoy that kind of tinkering, it gives them the illusion of control.

Empasis on the ILLUSION!
These people arent really artists or creators.
What artist spends all his time cleaning the freakin brush!
An anal compulsive one thats for sure.

This is a year for me in which I am going to double on output.
Its going to be done on a MAC, If that machine takes a bit longer to output a render then so be it, because the final product will still have been done faster and will have left me feeling accomplished.

Oh yea, and i double what was said about Pcheese noise,, christ mine is like a plane that refuses to land. I thought it was busted and called up the company.
They said that the noise was normal, sheesh.
What kind of normal do they live in.

[imamacguy17]

Why doesnt anybody see the signs. THE G5 will be here at MWSF.

Major Signs

1) "Consumer" products have recieved G4 processors.

2) Specials on the Power Mac G4.

3) remember the introduction of the powermac g4. it was a board with all of the benefits of the g4 with a g3 chip. This time to prevent the debacle that ensued Apple will release the G4 with the board but still call it a g3.

The other thing is the suggestion that the jump in speed isnt going to be very big. If the G5 is rumored to have an intial range of 1.4-1.8 Ghz and tecnically the G4 can reach speeds of 1.4 Ghz (rumored) why wouldn't Apple release the G4 with all of the benefits (Firewire2, DDR, etc) with speeds that the initial G5 will start at. For example the final G4 machines would have specs like the xserve but speeds at 1.2,1.3,1.4 or even 1.0,1.2,1.4 and the first G5 would have speeds of 1.4,1.6,1.8. I dont know what the big deal is just get the best you can for you're money. Apple pretty much shows the warning signs for new processors/upgrades. If you need the newest greatest thing then wait until macworld. if you can deal with what there is out there go for it and take advange of the incentives.

[arn]

Originally posted by imamacguy17
Why doesnt anybody see the signs. THE G5 will be here at MWSF.

Major Signs


How about this for a sign that the G5 will NOT be coming out in July... (I know you say MWSF, but the rest of your message implied you meant MWNY)

It is important to note that this is only the first installment in this [G4] processor family. "The big news here is that this device is certainly not topped out," said Swearingen. Mac users can reasonably expect incremental performance increases from this processor family in the future, taking Apollo to its promised GHz+ performance levels.

From Motorola in Jan. 2002 when they released the 1Ghz G4.

arn

[3rdpath]

at the risk of agreeing with arn( heh...), we won't see a G5 in july.

but we will see a healthy speed bump, DDR , bluetooth and maybe a new rack enclosure.( ok, so they CAN cram it into one rack space....) though i predict the rack will be 3u or 4u to allow for more PCI slots. i'll be very happy with that and i will buy one.

besides, i'm not real certain i'd want to get the first rev of the G5.

[mr.w]

I see all of these people saying that they'll leave apple if the speed jumps aren't considerable, but isn't being able to run osx reason enough to stay with apple? coupled with the new os (x.2) we should see speed increase by at least 40-50 %... the simple fact is that apple and motorola (or IBM) will never win the mhz race with AMD or Intel... it's not the race that we're in. I'll admit that it would be sweet to have a dual 2ghz G5, but right now im content with a dual 1ghz (extremely fast). Apple is in the business of producing quality computers, and no other company comes close to beating us there...

[spaceghost]

Recoil,


You say you do digital audio, well so do I, professionally and I ain't using no PC.

The bottom line is if you say you do pro audio and you are using a PC, you do not know what you are talking about, because most if not all Pro's use a Mac, with Logic, Pro Tools, Digital Performer ON A MAC.

I know I am a pro audio engineer.

You also mention you use AMD, admittedly a great chip company, but what are you going to run.

2 choices Linux, if there are any Pro Audio apps on this platform, and doubtful it will get ahead os OS X.

or Windows XP, and you have to be joking.

Windows for ANY content creation production whether pro video or audio, most pro's are laughing at you right now.

This is equal to saying you are a Java or DBA or killer enterprise developer and you swear Mac OS 9 on an 333 MHz iMac is the killer platform.

You would be a laughing stock and have no credibility, just as you do know, talking about AMD and Windoze in the same sentence with Pro Video and Audio.

Apple summarily has this area wrapped up.

OS X is will continue be the choice for pro audio and pro video.

Also, where do you get your facts about AMD beating Macs in DSP, are you an engineer, probably not.

DSP comes down calculations, and the G4 (with Altivec) is still besting Pentium 4 and other chips.

The X server from what I have found out is besting DEC Alpha chips on Genetech's app Blast, arguably one of the most intensive calculating apps out there.

Do not buy the Processor speed Only argument, that most people will have you believe.

Now that being said, the Mac needs faster or should I say more powerful processors, but more importantly, a wider faster architecture, is more important at the outset.

Just look at Xserve and you see a preview.

That being said, we do need to see great things at MWNY, what I believe we will see.

1. Defintely a new enclosure, count on this
2. Probably a G4 7470 chip using .13 micron, which will get higher speeds, 1.4 Ghz and higher, at least dual's maybe more.
3. Firewire 2 (800 Mb going to 3.2 Gb).
4. ATA 100 or 133

And can we all Cut the **** with USB 2.0, it will never get past FireWire2 and there are NO products using it, you will NEVER see a Mini DV camera with USB 2.0 instead of FireWire. If USB 2.0 make it so what, not that important.

Firewire (2) is THE WAY Audio and Video will be handled now and in the future.

ProTools systems with overpriced PCI cards are going the way of the Do Do bird as are Avid Sytems.

333 (plus) MHz buses are coming, technologies like Hypertransport (or Rapid IO) are coming, they have to for things like HD video and the like.

Also lets please stop this OS X on Intel or some CISC based X86 architecture.

It WILL NEVER happen, just like FCP and DVD SP will NEVER, ever port to Windows (and Shake is being KILLED for Windows as we speak).

All of Apple's Apps would have to be Cocoa first which will take years, then recompiled for a new processor.

That being said, I don't think Apple is going to dump Power PC just because of this. All of Apple's Apps, FCP and the like will not work on the new Processor.

I am guessing a New Power PC from IBM with major Ghz headroom that has multiple cores on one chip, making up for the lack of Altivec if they decide to not go with Altivec, etc. (has been discussed here somewhere at MacRumors).


Bottom LIne: If you are doing Pro Audio, Video, 3D, DVD you will not be using any Pee Sea AMD Hack box running Windoze or Linux.

it will be the next Gen Power Macs, XServe ,and OS X, on FCP DVDSP, Maya, Shake, next gener audio programs that take advantage of Core Audio (DSP) in OS X.


Apple is poised to take over the pro and (even prosumer, consumer) Content creation market, just as much as Windoze has spread like cockroaches in the business world.

But let's not get delusions thinking Windoze XP or other is some great Content Creation or even enterprise level or database platform, it is not, even Windoze IT people will tell you that. They'll use Linux before using that.


Pro Video and Audio, etc. is one area Windoze will Never control, trust me, and there will be Apple's 30 % plus market share.

[Recoil]

Originally posted by spaceghost
Recoil,


You say you do digital audio, well so do I, professionally and I ain't using no PC.

The bottom line is if you say you do pro audio and you are using a PC, you do not know what you are talking about, because most if not all Pro's use a Mac, with Logic, Pro Tools, Digital Performer ON A MAC.

I know I am a pro audio engineer.

You also mention you use AMD, admittedly a great chip company, but what are you going to run.

2 choices Linux, if there are any Pro Audio apps on this platform, and doubtful it will get ahead os OS X.

or Windows XP, and you have to be joking.

Windows for ANY content creation production whether pro video or audio, most pro's are laughing at you right now.

This is equal to saying you are a Java or DBA or killer enterprise developer and you swear Mac OS 9 on an 333 MHz iMac is the killer platform.

You would be a laughing stock and have no credibility, just as you do know, talking about AMD and Windoze in the same sentence with Pro Video and Audio.

Apple summarily has this area wrapped up.

OS X is will continue be the choice for pro audio and pro video.

Also, where do you get your facts about AMD beating Macs in DSP, are you an engineer, probably not.

DSP comes down calculations, and the G4 (with Altivec) is still besting Pentium 4 and other chips.

The X server from what I have found out is besting DEC Alpha chips on Genetech's app Blast, arguably one of the most intensive calculating apps out there.

Do not buy the Processor speed Only argument, that most people will have you believe.

Now that being said, the Mac needs faster or should I say more powerful processors, but more importantly, a wider faster architecture, is more important at the outset.

Just look at Xserve and you see a preview.

That being said, we do need to see great things at MWNY, what I believe we will see.

1. Defintely a new enclosure, count on this
2. Probably a G4 7470 chip using .13 micron, which will get higher speeds, 1.4 Ghz and higher, at least dual's maybe more.
3. Firewire 2 (800 Mb going to 3.2 Gb).
4. ATA 100 or 133

And can we all Cut the **** with USB 2.0, it will never get past FireWire2 and there are NO products using it, you will NEVER see a Mini DV camera with USB 2.0 instead of FireWire. If USB 2.0 make it so what, not that important.

Firewire (2) is THE WAY Audio and Video will be handled now and in the future.

ProTools systems with overpriced PCI cards are going the way of the Do Do bird as are Avid Sytems.

333 (plus) MHz buses are coming, technologies like Hypertransport (or Rapid IO) are coming, they have to for things like HD video and the like.

Also lets please stop this OS X on Intel or some CISC based X86 architecture.

It WILL NEVER happen, just like FCP and DVD SP will NEVER, ever port to Windows (and Shake is being KILLED for Windows as we speak).

All of Apple's Apps would have to be Cocoa first which will take years, then recompiled for a new processor.

That being said, I don't think Apple is going to dump Power PC just because of this. All of Apple's Apps, FCP and the like will not work on the new Processor.

I am guessing a New Power PC from IBM with major Ghz headroom that has multiple cores on one chip, making up for the lack of Altivec if they decide to not go with Altivec, etc. (has been discussed here somewhere at MacRumors).


Bottom LIne: If you are doing Pro Audio, Video, 3D, DVD you will not be using any Pee Sea AMD Hack box running Windoze or Linux.

it will be the next Gen Power Macs, XServe ,and OS X, on FCP DVDSP, Maya, Shake, next gener audio programs that take advantage of Core Audio (DSP) in OS X.


Apple is poised to take over the pro and (even prosumer, consumer) Content creation market, just as much as Windoze has spread like cockroaches in the business world.

But let's not get delusions thinking Windoze XP or other is some great Content Creation or even enterprise level or database platform, it is not, even Windoze IT people will tell you that. They'll use Linux before using that.


Pro Video and Audio, etc. is one area Windoze will Never control, trust me, and there will be Apple's 30 % plus market share.






http://www.digitalnaturalsound.com/logic_dsp/msg/910.html

[spaceghost]

and your point would be...

Your obviously a PC troll, just go back to PC land, you don't belong here.

And if you think you will be working in pro audio or video)working on a PC you will be laughed at an unemployed.

You forget the main point.

The OS and the apps.

And Windoze (and it's lame apps) aint it.

Hardware can and will get fatser and Apple (SJ) will be able to use whatever and whichever is the fastest, best hardware out there.

When it comes to creation content, Apple does the whole thing, OS X, Hardware and killer Apps, and this is will continue to be the most important thing in Apple having and forever maintaining its lead in this area.

Go try and get some work on your winblows / linux / AMD hack box, tell them what you are using, again, you'll be a laughing stock and unemployed.

[cb911]

what is the point of that!!!???? why would you quote such a long post???? nutcases....
i
now, back onto the subject. i was looking at a PC mag yesterday and saw that there are 2.4GHz P4 laptops out. *2.4GHz P4 laptops?? i still like my TiBook, but this is crazy. the next big relese will have to be a radical departure from the current G4s and the 1.4GHz dual G4 being released at NY. i've going to have to keep my TiBook for the next two years, and i just hope that Apple has some crazy laptop out by then.

[SilvorX]

was reading half a year ago that if Motorola/IBM get out of making processors for apple, AMD may come in and start producing them for apple since Apple and AMD have a way better relationship than Apple and Intel...
n cuz of this, lots of wintel users were thinking that osx may be ported out onto x86 lol

[bonehead]

Bottom LIne: If you are doing Pro Audio, Video, 3D, DVD you will not be using any Pee Sea AMD Hack box running Windoze or Linux.

spaceghost: (if you're in FLA and I'm in CA then this is coast to coast), some people in video and many people in 3D use Window$. A rack of PCs for a render farm is much cheaper than a rack of Macs. Although I'd wager the majority of feature film/television/commercial/music video editing is performed on Macs, there are those who run PC Avids and love them. Also, Unity, Avid's networking product that allows multiple systems to use centralized media storage, is a Windows only application. So even though Macs are the dominant platform in media creation, PCs are used.

[Tokyo]

Originally posted by spaceghost
And can we all Cut the **** with USB 2.0, it will never get past FireWire2 and there are NO products using it, you will NEVER see a Mini DV camera with USB 2.0 instead of FireWire. If USB 2.0 make it so what, not that important.Wish I could agree with you on that. Maybe it's true for high-end products made only for professionals, but for the mass market, USB 2 is starting to take off--here in Japan it is more common than Firewire already--and I have heard reports of USB 2 on some digital cameras.

The sad fact is, the Wintel industries more or less own USB, and hate Firewire (why else would they insist on calling it "IEEE 1394," an ungainly name at best, and confuses a lot of people).


Tokyo

[iapple]

Originally posted by Tokyo
Wish I could agree with you on that. Maybe it's true for high-end products made only for professionals, but for the mass market, USB 2 is starting to take off--here in Japan it is more common than Firewire already--and I have heard reports of USB 2 on some digital cameras.

The sad fact is, the Wintel industries more or less own USB, and hate Firewire (why else would they insist on calling it "IEEE 1394," an ungainly name at best, and confuses a lot of people).


Tokyo

I live in Yokohama, Japan, and I also agree that USB 2.0 is taking off, and external HDs are available in USB 2.0. and it is REALLY annoying to see IEEE 1394 on the boxes! FIREWIRE is the name FIREWIRE!!!!!:mad: :mad: And Sony calls it iLink! Just because Apple started and not MS, doesn't mean they can "abuse" this great technology! (sorry to ramble on...)

As soon as OS X audio apps are out, we can see the power of X.

And can people stop fussing about pure performance? A 1GHz G4 is good at somethings, Athlons are good at somethings, P4s aren't good at many things, but that's life. If you wanna use the great OS, maybe you can put up the hardware, that "might not" be the fastest in the world!!! Jeez, take it easy man, are you going to feel that superior because you finished rendering 30 seconds after a PC??? COME ON!

[mmmdreg]

It's hardly a do-or-die situation...rather a letdown thing...but it everything seems to point to Apple releasing those new PowerMacs so theres nothing too much to get dissapointed on...unless it only becomes a minor speed bump with no other changes..

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Recoil
Thanks for not bashing me . I love macs and yes I am a little frustrated by moto and apple . I should have cleared up a few things before so you can see the world though my eyes .


me too

sometimes i think apple needs to look into a partnership with amd besides their moto and ibm connections

motorola makes a great processor no doubt, it's always just a little bit too late

apple's operating systems is the advantage we have over the pc world and xp is the first real attempt at an nt os which is truly multimedia compatible

apple's os are multimedia now for years

sure, some artists ran windows nt 4/w2k with their art, but they also had to write their own device drivers which is not an easy task...or get a techie to do that which eats time

i would rather spend the hours of my creative life worrying about the art and not about the os and troubleshooting more than i have to

[gopher]

Check my post in the other thread:

http://www.macrumors.com/forums/showthread.php3?s=&postid=72070#post72069

I won't repeat it here, to save on bandwidth.

[Inhale420]

Originally posted by Grokgod


I hate my Pcheese its the worst thing ever and I can safely say that I wish that i hadnt bought it. Despite the fact that it runs Acid well and a bunch of great audio apps with a lot of plugs and tracks. Its still damn unstable and winxp is very intrusive and demanding! Cripes , i hate XP, really!



the reason it's unstable is because you load it with crappy 3rd party apps and warzed apps. explain now how winxp is intrusive and demanding? either you're a kid, or you're seriously drunk.

[Inhale420]

Originally posted by Grokgod
I think that I can add a pertinent thought here.

I bought a new 800 Ti, yesterday. Depsite the fact that there are faster laptops out there. The new SOI chip was a decent enough crest of the wave for me, and i bought in.

When DDr comes out this summer on the PowerMacs, I will buy one.
Its on an acceptable crest of tech for me with the release of DDRam and improved speeds and the new Quartz Extreme.
A 1.4 and DDr will do a Mac great, despite the 2.4 p4's that are out.
Despite the fact that I plan on doing high end rendering and video editing on my Mac.
Despite the fact that the Pcheese has a faster chip etc.
Whatever the MAC can do I will work with because as we all know we are buying more than merely the cpu, its the Mac experience and what we can create with it.

If its rendering is slow at times, well I will do what I have always done and would have to do on any machine, walk away and live my life, not in waiting but in confidence that its being done.


LOL, i don't even know how to respond to your posts. you certainly buy a lot of computers. you got a new 2.2 p4, a new 800mhz tibook and you're about to buy a new desktop.

so can we see some of these high-end rendering and video editing?

[Grokgod]

Inhale~
Its kind of sad that you dont know how to respond to my posts, they're rather simple ones! Perhaps there are too complicated for you.
Let me explain to you.

Yes, I have a lot of computers.
I do my work on computers and I buy new units often! Very often :)
I have a new iMac, a new Ti 800, a P4 2.2, two iPods, 3 freakin lcds, Four guitars, a marshall half stack, 3 synths, the newest is the Korg Karma!
oh yea, my electronic drum kit, yum!
2 GL1 cameras with all the works, I should have gotten the XL1's.
ohhh man, I got it all, Xbox, playstation2......Everything, and if i dont have it, I am getting it!
I like computers and electronics!

I will grab the powermac as soon as it comes out!
Boom! Mine!
NO muss no fuss, I buy what i want, well almost, that new BMW is still about 6 months away. But i am about to break that barrier, big time.
Christ , you should see my girlfriend, a true beauty!

Whats it to you? We all cant be losers scrambling to get a few dimes together to buy an old unit. :P You dont know who your talking to.

Strange that you find my posts SO confusing, maybe you should pay more attention to what you do with your time then you wouldnt find such simple truths so mind blowing.

As for seeing all my high end rendering and video, damn boy. You see it all the time!
You just too busy being in awe and wishing. Why would I credit you with an audience? I have no need to prove or establish myself to a headless groaner on a mac board, sheesh.
How lame can you go?

As for Xp, you must certainly be oblivious to the obvious if your actually defending the stability of XP. Talk about picking a losing battle on a Mac board, this alone betrays the fact the your handle INHALE is referring to the copious and deadly amounts of grass you must be never Exhaling!

Xp is invasive. Here are a few obvious ways that have eluded your vision.
~50 digit serial Auth via phone or the net. That was insane!@
~Xp sends information to M$ servers behind users back.
~Netpassport! ever try to get rid of that crap.
~Explorers methods of collecting data on users.
Hello they are in court for the business practices, where the hell have you been? Get out of your 2*4 living room and check out reality.
~The most recent fiasco is hotmails attack on its users,although not Xp, it betrays what is going on in Xp everytime you go to M$ for a system check.

I could go on, but its all known by others on this board, I am afraid that you are the only one that is unaware of this or the reasons that we all use macs.

Blow away bubble head, before I burst you!

< This was a public service announcement, we now return you to your regular programming>

[ericb88]

grokgod, will you adopt me?

[Grokgod]

well ericb88~
that depends on wether or not your a beautiful woman with ample endowments. But considering that your name is Eric, I am afraid that I have my hands full at the moment with assorted other potential adoptions.

Rest assured that I shall keep you in mind. :P

And to keep in the vein of the thread...

Inhale~ I do not call photoshop a warez app. It bought and paid for and i have lost count the number of times it bailed out because of XP.

On a happy note, I am really looking forward to the new QE, that with the new and I am hoping for 1.4 which I think is a possibility, speed bumps.
But i feel that DDR ram is of the greatest importance.
Must feed the CPUproperly in order for it to grow into a nice and healthly G5.

Sorry, I said the bad word, G5.
Opps said it again, damn it.

[Rajj]

I agree with Recoil, Apple has a state-of-the-art Operating System, but they don't have turbo engine to push it!!! For instance, I have a Tibook 400, and I love it!! but when it comes to the internet, my Celeron 750mhz notebook blows it out of the water!!!! And when it comes to my Athlon XP 1700, there is no comparison! I hope Jaguar takes care of this problem!!!

[Matt_d]

Had to get a fast thing for a good price, i will get a g5 if and when they appear. I'm sick of Apple doing "minor updates". Mind you QE will be something to see.:)

[Rajj]

This message is for the people that works on 1 infinate loop, Cupertino, Ca, Ummm... Heres a bright ideal..... Trash Motorola, they are holding you back!!! AMD is the wave of the future!!!! My Athlon XP 1700 out preforms every computer in my house, and I have a lot of computers!!! I wish I had the XP 1700 in my Tibook!!! Even if the G5's come out in July... AMD will have something out to counteract Intel's Northwood B 2.53 Ghz/ 533 bus. Also OS X is the the best operating system in the world, so Apple has to take advantage of it!!

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by xrhajj
This message is for the people that works on 1 infinate loop, Cupertino, Ca, Ummm... Heres a bright ideal..... Trash Motorola, they are holding you back!!! AMD is the wave of the future!!!! My Athlon XP 1700 out preforms every computer in my house, and I have a lot of computers!!! I wish I had the XP 1700 in my Tibook!!! Even if the G5's come out in July... AMD will have something out to counteract Intel's Northwood B 2.53 Ghz/ 533 bus. Also OS X is the the best operating system in the world, so Apple has to take advantage of it!!

i wonder how much work it would take on amd's part to retool a processor for apple's os x?

[Recoil]

spaceghost,



I have enough money that I don't need to be "employed" or "unemployed" for the rest of my life . I just work on music .

There are programs that do not run under ProTools TDM . I do not have enough native dsp power to run the native plugins . I own a G4 500mhz . How can you call me a PC troll If I don't even own a PC . I know that it's not apple with the chip problem . It's really Moto . I love OSX . Even thought PT does not support it yet . I just need more native dsp power for programs like reaktor and a few others . I am going to buy a dual 2Ghz AMD clawhammer for native software only and lock it up with PT on my mac . Not unless moto can get a 1.4 or 1.5Ghz chip out in july . I just need more native dsp power and I hope moto can show me in july .

I bet that steve jobs is not a happy camper about moto . There holding Apple back and there holding me back as well . It's no longer do or die for apple . It's do or die for Moto!

[Rajj]

Originally posted by jefhatfield


i wonder how much work it would take on amd's part to retool a processor for apple's os x?


It would take some work, but I think we would see a huge difference in computing power!!

[Recoil]

One more month! I want to see 1.5Ghz!

[Recoil]

I just heard 1.8Ghz is going to be out in MWNY I have a feeling it's not true..

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by Recoil
I just heard 1.8Ghz is going to be out in MWNY I have a feeling it's not true..

Here are the chances of that happening.

Zip, ziltch, nadda, no way, hell no, zero, slim and none, and slim just died.

It ain't going to happen. Dual 1.4's no 1.5's. That is what it will be. Come back in July and same damn B2TM. You were right.

[Rajj]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


Here are the chances of that happening.

Zip, ziltch, nadda, no way, hell no, zero, slim and none, and slim just died.

It ain't going to happen. Dual 1.4's no 1.5's. That is what it will be. Come back in July and same damn B2TM. You were right. '

That's funny :D HA HA

[mr.w]

Originally posted by Recoil
I just heard 1.8Ghz is going to be out in MWNY I have a feeling it's not true..

may I ask where you heard this information???

[barkmonster]

I have enough money that I don't need to be "employed" or "unemployed" for the rest of my life . I just work on music .

There are programs that do not run under ProTools TDM . I do not have enough native dsp power to run the native plugins . I own a G4 500mhz . How can you call me a PC troll If I don't even own a PC . I know that it's not apple with the chip problem . It's really Moto . I love OSX . Even thought PT does not support it yet . I just need more native dsp power for programs like reaktor and a few others . I am going to buy a dual 2Ghz AMD clawhammer for native software only and lock it up with PT on my mac . Not unless moto can get a 1.4 or 1.5Ghz chip out in july . I just need more native dsp power and I hope moto can show me in july .


I take it you're using a Digi001 or AMIII card with Protools LE on your mac at present ?

I've been hooked on protools since Protools Free came out, I got an AMIII card with Protools LE around christmas and I love it apart from the slowness of my mac running it. I've thought about getting a PC as DSP monster for running software synths myself but I think I'd probably find it too distracting because of the noise of 2 computers being on at the same time. Plus, anything goes wrong with a PC and I havn't got the first clue how to sort it out.

Are you a producer by the way ?

To literally make a living from writing my own music is only a dream for me, something I'd love to do in the future though.

I spend so much time putting up with "DAE error, Reduce the number of plug-ins" type errors or software synths totally hosing my mac when the CPU reaches it's limit that I rarely end up finishing anything. I either totally lose my original concept for the tune while I do loads of submixes to free up CPU time or I just get so frustrated with my lack of DSP power than I just archive the session onto CD and hope I can get a mac fast enough to finish it on one day. I am only on a beige G3 so I'm at even more of a disadvantage with such a slow machine.

I NEED at least a 1Ghz G4 for my next mac, I know it's not unrealistic to expect the entry level model to be at 1Ghz at MWNY, if I can get a mac that performs at least 4 or 5 times faster at protools than my current one and has enough CPU power left to run software synths confortably, I'll be happy with it. I don't know about the software synth performance of an 800Mhz G4 but I know if you're just using RTAS plug-ins and nothing else it's over 4 times faster than my G3. Throw a few of the increasingly complex software synths into the mix and I'd pretty much need a 1.4Ghz G4 if I wanted to be sure it wouldn't run out of DSP power. There's all kinds of software synths that could bring any mac to it's knees at present, physical modelling, grainularsynthesis, it's just insane that all those potential instruments are available and yet there's nothing out there yet that I'd be confident I could use them on comfortably. Plus, I can't afford to buy a new mac every year so I want something fast enough for me to cope with for maybe 2 years before some software package or other comes out that won't run on it.

[Kethoticus]

....I do do graphics work, specifically 3D, with occasional forays into After Effects & Photoshop land. Call me a PC troll because I criticize the Mac till your heart's content, but the Mac simply does not compete with AMD's hardware. There were recent tests performed by benchmarkers and one performed by Charlie White (yes, a known PC troll) comparing the fastest Mac (a dual-GHz G4 with a dual-1.5GHz Athlon--note, not the fastest AMD chip out there). The Polywell workstation bested the Mac in all six tests by approximately the same proportions as the difference in their clock speeds (i.e., ~1/3 more). So you see, it's not just audio that's revealing the Mac's inadequacies, and the virtue of clock speed is not necessarily a myth.

I believe the problem is not just the Moto processors, but also the OS (X), which needs continued refinement and streamlining. But the thing is, I've been hearing that OS X and the PPC are going to send the Mac soaring over its competition for the past several years now. But the exact opposite's been happening.

Will the Mac die this July if its hardware isn't up to hopes and fantasies? That's being a tad melodramatic. Individuals may leave the platform, of course. But if Apple ever does die, it will be gradual, not sudden due to unwelcome announcements at an expo. But honestly, as a long-time Mac fan, I too am losing patience with the ineptness of Mac performance vs. its x86 competition.

I am going to be buying a used, single-1.8GHz Athlon system this week. I will be installing either 2000 or XP on it, buying about 512MB DDR-RAM (more if I can get it cheap), and a GF3 Ti200 card. I will use it for the study and practice of various 3D apps I wish to add to my repertoire. It will be my first PC ever (altho my first non-Mac was an ancient SGI Indigo 2 Extreme). I will be comparing the user experience between it and my Mac (an old B&W G3 running both 9 & X). Of course, speed comparisons would not be fair. This is for ease-of-use comparisons, etc. Depending on how I fare with this Athlon system, I may either leave the Mac or cling to it more than ever.

Of course, the ideal situation would be to own a PC (desktop) *and* a Mac (laptop), having the best (and worst) of both worlds at my fingertips. Unfortunately, financial realities force me to make a choice between the two--as is the case for many in this thread.

[jadam]

Originally posted by Recoil
AMD is going to come out with there new hammer chip sets in october . They will have PCI-X ,AGP 8x ,Hypertransport tunnels running thoughout the board running dual 2Ghz . It will be 30% faster clock for clock then current AMD chips with a PR rateing of 3400 . I do digital audio and macs just can't keep up with PC anymore in DSP . It's going to be a sad day when I have to boot up windows XP because apple can't get there speeds up . Mhz does mean something "It's not everything but it still counts" .
If apple want's more then 5% of the market then they need to do more . Sad how long has ddr been out? How long has ATA100 been out? Now apple just came out with it on there 3.5k servers. Sorry but that is not going to WIN people over to apple.

I have hope that apple will do something with moto . I just won't pay 3k for a computer that is 2 years behind AMD .

I will give apple until july to to change there view on power users. People in the digital audio world are looking at AMD very hard and most of the people I know have already moved over to AMD chips and are very happy with it .

I'm not trolling . I own a G4 500mhz and love it . It has made me alot of money . I just want apple to show up to the game in july or AMD will get my money from now on. do or die. umm... we all know about the hammers... but they are only producing 10,000 of them , and its coming out in december, they are going to make 10,000 then stop, each chip will cost like $800+. by June, they will start really producing the chips for the mass market ok? not to mention that each chip costs like $800 + $800 mono?? hmm... 1600 just for that... and how much does DDR333 or DDR533 cost??

By that time, January, before AMD starts mass producing the chips for consumers, Apple will have the G5's out, which are VERY VERY VERY similiar to the Hammers. it does kind of the same thing... PPC-32/PPC-64bit. and will have RAPIDIO wich is just as fast as HyperTransport, and hopefully AGP 8x... we might even see AGP 8x in july... who knows... Apple is ahead of the game.


Ohh yeah... Do you guys know that an 800mhz Hammer outperforms a 1.6GHZ Athlon XP(2000+) and a 1.6GHZ P4?? ohh yeah... also, that 800mhz chip isnt even final... and they are expected to come out in 2ghz flavors(just like the G5's)

You know, i think moto/Apple/AMD have been working on the G5's, AMD could be lending lots of hammer technology to Moto.

[jadam]

Originally posted by spuncan
I've never examined the Spec testing closely but my guess is that intel made it so there chips do very well by incorperating the parts needed to get outstanding scores to impress techies. I read a PC sites review (anandtech) of the P4 they said the 2.4ghz model was equivalent to a 1.7ghz PIII (impossible to create but is equivalent) I think hmm the G4 would be much faster that a G3 along with a Athlon/Duron test. As for apple they desperately need to kick moto's @$$ into gear. Or get a new CPU company to compete against the moto chips (still using altivec)
Last Rev.G4 MWNY
1.0,1.2,1.4GHZ G4 CPU
Nvidia radeon 8500,4mx,4 ti GPU
DDR Ram same spec as server (233mhz (rambus same speed as my cpu :) )) 2.1ghz max)
Rest of Mobo same as the Xserver.

G5 Rev. A MWSF
1.4,1.6,1.8 GHZ
Nvidia radeon 8500,4mx,4 ti GPU
DDR Ram (266mhz 2.1ghz max) (CPU Integrated :D WÔÔT )
64-32 bit hybrid
PCI-X
Rapid IO
.13soi
Symmetric Processors what happened to r300?

[Rajj]

Originally posted by Kethoticus
...

I am going to be buying a used, single-1.8GHz Athlon system this week. I will be installing either 2000 or XP on it, buying about 512MB DDR-RAM

Uhh??? There is no 1.8Ghz Athlon XP chip!!!!
The fastest XP chip is the 2200+ which operates at 1.73 Ghz!!!

[edesignuk]

Originally posted by xrhajj


Uhh??? There is no 1.8Ghz Athlon XP chip!!!!
The fastest XP chip is the 2200+ which operates at 1.73 Ghz!!!
I suppose he ment an 1800+ AMD chip but did not realise the the 1800 does not meen 1800Mhz (1.8Ghz) :p

[G5orbust]

Originally posted by Funkatation
I don't even know what it is... There are no posted specs of a desktop G5, so why are we speculating on it?

Cuz thats just what we do round these here parts. Yah hear?

[jaykk]

Why cant apple follow AMD's path - calling the fasterst chip 2200+ which operates at 1.73 Ghz!!! Why cant apple get rid of MHZ myth and just give us G5 whatever the chip may be :)

[DavPeanut]

Originally posted by jaykk
Why cant apple follow AMD's path - calling the fasterst chip 2200+ which operates at 1.73 Ghz!!! Why cant apple get rid of MHZ myth and just give us G5 whatever the chip may be :)

Apple could do the same thing as AMD (dont kill me). They could say like 1200+ for the 1Ghz, or whatever it is compared to a Pentium. Thats how apple should advertise. I mean, whoever that guy was thought AMD 1800 wer 1.8 Ghz. Apple could trick other people the same way.

[DavPeanut]

Originally posted by jaykk
Why cant apple follow AMD's path - calling the fasterst chip 2200+ which operates at 1.73 Ghz!!! Why cant apple get rid of MHZ myth and just give us G5 whatever the chip may be :)

Apple could do the same thing as AMD (dont kill me). They could say like 1200+ for the 1Ghz, or whatever it is compared to a Pentium. Thats how apple should advertise. I mean, whoever that guy was thought AMD 1800 wer 1.8 Ghz. Apple could trick other people the same way.

[barkmonster]

If you got to barefeats and compare the single CPU results for a dual Ghz G4 vs a 1.4Ghz Athlon, you'll see that for the G4 to match the Athlon it would need to be either dead on 1.4Ghz or about 60Mhz over. We're talking about a CPU with DDR, no L3 cache a huge 512K L2 and 128K L1 compared to a CPU with a 2Mb L3, 256K L2, 64K L1 and plain old PC133 SDRAM.

If all we need at present is increase Mhz to match the speed, add a faster bus speed into the equation and I think come July, we might see a mac that can take on most of the Athlon XP cpus and at least match them.

I know this new AMD cpu is coming out early next year but that gives motorola another 5 months or so to come up with either an even faster G4 or the G5. I'm just glad we're slowly catching up, I mean the AMD chips are increasing in 66Mhz increments, at the rate Motorola are increasing the speeds of the G4 we're almost jumping 3 times as much as AMD with every speed bump. A 200Mhz increase on a 1Ghz cpu is quite relevant, 66Mhz on a 1.6Ghz CPU isn't exactly making people jump for their credit card.

It was around the time of the G4's introduction when you'd get nitrogen cooled 1Ghz Athlons on the cover of PC magazines all over the place with big "fastest PC in the world!" type phrases on the front. The potential speed of the G4 has more than doubled since then yet the athlon's are barely 2 3rds faster than they we're in 1999.

If motorola hadn't been stuck at 500Mhz for so long, the G4 could have over taken the athlon already, as it stands, we're in a position where they can catch up a little and then blow everything out of the water when the G5s come out. I know a lot of this is wishful thinking on the part of a mac "blowing away" a PC, it's enough to match a PC at everyday tasks these days let alone beat it. The fact the PC would cost less than the mac if it was equiped the same would still have little bearing on the true cost if user interface and future value were conciderations when buying a new computer.

[PCUser]

There is a 1.8GHz Athlon XP: the Athlon XP 2200+. It was finally released to the public just recently.

The '2100' is 1.73GHz. The '2000' is 1.67GHz, the '1900' is 1.6GHz, and the '1800' is 1.53GHz. You might want to get your facts straight before blasting someone. However, since the 1.8GHz Athlon XP's were just barely publicly released, I think he is probably getting a 1.53GHz Athlon XP.

A simple math function to approximate the actual speed of an Athlon XP: take the 'Rating', subtract 1000, multiply by 0.667, and add 1000. Ex: ((2200 - 1000) * 0.667 ) + 1000 = 1800.4. (Yes, I was bored).

[jefhatfield]

the last article i read in one of the pc realted magazines was very impressed with the athlon's rating and called it modest if anything

i agree and it might not be a bad idea if apple does the same thing as amd...at first i did not think the amd approach would work but when one sees 2000+, they are going to think 2 ghz somewhere in their mind, even if it's not quite at 2 ghz in reality

amd was smart to play this game conservatively and name a chip 2000+ when it actually benched faster than the 2 ghz pentium 4 chip... the 2100+ and 2200+ must be monster chips and at amd's pricing convention, they beat the heck out of intel and their pentium 4 offering

if the new g5's are rated at 1.4 ghz but function as fast as a 2 ghz pentium 4 chip, why not call the chip "the G5 2000+"?

[arclyte]

A few people on this thread have touched the issue lightly, but I don't think it's something that should be taken lightly when considering this... Sure, you need the power to run high end professional audio software, understood. But no matter how powerful your hardware is, you need good operating software to back it up with. I started in the world of PCs before being "converted" to Mac, and although I may gripe about this and that, there's no real question in my mind about what to use. Great, so you've got the new AMD quadra-tetrahertz monster chip, but you're still running Windows on it, which almost guarantees data loss, frustration and consequently baldness from pulling your hair out trying to figure out why this conflicts with that conflicts with this... With a Mac, I know why my computer crashes, and it only happens when I'm running Microsoft products.

I like the idea of just soaking up a PC for it's shear processor power, but it's like using a flamethrower to peel paint, once you set your house on fire with it, you'll be wondering why you thought it was such a good idea.

[Kethoticus]

Actually, I believe it is indeed a 1.8GHz Athlon I'll be getting, since this is a used computer that was used in a rendering farm at a digital effects studio here in southern CA. However, I got this info second-hand, so you guys may be right. But either way, I got a fairly powerful machine coming to me soon. The comparisons in user experience between my Mac and new PC workstation are going to be interesting.

[modul8tr]

This is what I've been telling people for years. There is a HUGE reason why in the music/film sound industry, almost all projects are created on Macs or finalized on Macs. They work!! And you're not pulling your hair out in the process.

It amazes me how many times you can actually break a pc machine/or software when trying to create a project.



But try explaining that to the pc users, who always remind me of the sad kid working at the ice cream shop.

[jefhatfield]

i hope tibook goes to at least 900 mhz and ibook goes to 800 mhz

1 ghz on both laptops by around year's end/mwsf '03 would be sweet

am i dreaming? he he

[King Cobra]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
i hope tibook goes to at least 900 mhz and ibook goes to 800 mhz

1 ghz on both laptops by around year's end/mwsf '03 would be sweet

am i dreaming? he he

I'll give you three guesses...the first two don't count! :D

Originally posted by modul8tr
It amazes me how many times you can actually break a pc machine/or software when trying to create a project.

What amazes me even more are all the peecee/pee4/craXP advertizements on TV happen to show some "fancy-shmancy" 2.0GHz system that can make a video in 30 seconds.

I'm wondering how long it took to upload the individual scenes onto the software so that it would (with luck) run on the day of the airing.

Then, again, those guys aren't throwing cameras off the stage! :D

[G5orbust]

Hey, guys
AMD's newest chip is called Opteron. Heres a quote from the mag, Maximum PC :

"Opteron- that will be the name of AMD's eighth generation 64 bit CPU... The Opteron will not replace the Athlon."

So HA pcuser. Now, whose got the last laugh now?

*Sry no clock speed given :( *

[G5orbust]

Originally posted by King Cobra


I'll give you three guesses...the first two don't count! :D



What amazes me even more are all the peecee/pee4/craXP advertizements on TV happen to show some "fancy-shmancy" 2.0GHz system that can make a video in 30 seconds.

I'm wondering how long it took to upload the individual scenes onto the software so that it would (with luck) run on the day of the airing.

Then, again, those guys aren't throwing cameras off the stage! :D

Lets just say, they spend a lot of time getting that PC video editing crapola to work. I have final cut pro 2 and it rules!! I've used Windoze Movie Maker too. It pales in comparison to even iMovie (which i dont personally like) and theres nothing even close to iDVD (which i also dont like, im getting DVD studio pro soon :p ) except for DVDit (sony uses it), but the lame LE version that they give u sucks. So, to sum it all up, Apple may be called "slower" than PCs, but, good luck editing 1 hour worth of quality DV on windoze movie maker.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by King Cobra


I'll give you three guesses...the first two don't count! :D



he he

[PCUser]

G5orbust, you misunderstand. The Athlon line and the Opteron line will both be x86-64 (32-bit/64-bit hybrids), it's just the Opteron will be aimed at servers, and the Athlon at home users.

The Athlon line will get a new core (it's already on it's four core... the slot-A Athlon, the Athlon T-bird, the Athlon XP, and the very recent Thoroughbred version of the Athlon XP, each has a different core) that is based x86-64.

The Athlon line will be the single-chip lines (akin to the Athlon XP), and the Opteron will take the place of the dual chips (akin to the Athlon MP). (Also, the Opterons will be available in quad configs.)

AMD's roadmap demonstrating that BOTH the Opteron and Athlon will be x86-64.
http://anandtech.com/showimage.html?u=http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/cpu/amd/opteron/announcement/roadmap.gif

The ClawHammer ("Athlon") will have a single channel DDR memory controller and the SledgeHammer ("Opteron") will have a dual channel:
http://anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1591&p=2

So, I guess I have the last laugh. :)


Also, I get MaximumPC, and the full quote is:
"Opteron--that will be the name of AMD's eigth-generation 64-bit CPU. Derived from the Latin word Optimus or "best", Opteron is intended to suggest reliability and strength. The CPU will be used for the 2P and 4P versions of the Hammer CPU that will be introduced next. The Opteron name will not replace Athlon. AMD says it still has plans to introduce an x86-64 CPU that will use the Athlon name later this year."

[Recoil]

Getting close .....

[gelbin]

INTERVIEW-IBM exec says tech changes mean moving on

By Caroline Humer

NEW YORK, June 25 (Reuters) - Sometimes, even the world's largest computer maker has to move on.

That's what International Business Machines Corp. (IBM) decided when some chip and storage technology lost its growth potential, Nick Donofrio, IBM's senior vice president for technology and manufacturing, said on Tuesday.

"Technologies come and go all the time," he said in an interview ahead of a speech at the TECHXNY, a trade show in New York. "As good as technology is and as fun as technology is it can also be very brutal. When its time is spent, its time is spent and it's time to move on."

Donofrio, a one-time engineer who has headed some of IBM's largest divisions -- including large corporate computers -- is now effectively the company's top technology officer. He is in charge of divisions ranging from IBM Research to manufacturing to strategy.

IBM last month said it would get out of the hard disk-drive business and it also announced plans to reorganize its microelectronics operations, phasing out certain older aluminum-based chip manufacturing capacity.

The Armonk, New York-based company has become increasingly critical of its money-losing business lines this year as corporations have cut tech spending amid the downturn.

As a result, new Chief Executive Officer Sam Palmisano is trying to find ways for the company to grow earnings and revenue again.

Donofrio said IBM is focusing on areas where the company sees the potential for growth to accelerate, such as its plan to offer semiconductor design services similar to its partnership with Sony Corp. (6758).

IBM is working closely with Sony to develop the chip that will be used in the company's next-generation gaming system, PlayStation 3. "It's a way more powerful thing then exists today," Donofrio said.

IBM is already building chips for its own computers and is thinking of adding perhaps two handfuls of customers in deals like Sony's to help give the IBM division size and scale.

"We have the experience to be able to do this for people faster, better, cheaper, which is what they want," he said.

While IBM will continue to make chips for other companies -- it currently makes the chip used in Apple Computer Corp.'s (AAPL) personal computers, for instance -- its emphasis will be on doing the more valuable design work, he said.

IBM will continue to focus on technologies that it says will dominate in the future, including self-healing computer systems that can automatically diagnose their own problems and fix them, Donofrio said.

In addition, IBM is increasingly emphasizing what the company calls utility computing, or computing on demand. That, Donofrio says, will enable companies to access computing resources as they need them.

"You have to have a long-term view to survive in this industry," Donofrio said.

IBM shares, which are trading at a five-year low, fell $1.13, or 1.6 percent, to close at $68.60 on the New York Stock Exchange.

[Recoil]

Were is MOTO??????