Do or Die for Apple in July ...

[agreenster]

mHz War Prior to MW

This is why I love MacRumors. Whenever a MacWorld is rolling around, we always have this debate about people jumping ship if Apple doesnt 'perform,' but then the rest of the months we drool about how much we want the latest Mac.

Anyway, humor aside. I am slightly worried about AMD's Hammer because it is a 64 bit chipset, which rocks the G4 whichever way you cut it. The reason people are drooling so much over wanting a G5, is because it is speculated that it will also have a 64 bit processor. DDR, Front Side Bus lag and hypertransport are other issues Apple needs to look at, but by and large they need a processor upgrade.

I dont think Apple is going to 'do or die' in July. I also dont think they are 'falling behind' as bad as we think. Even though the numbers of Intel and AMD chips are skyrocketing, it still doesnt show that much in the actual processing. In other words, a dual 1gHz G4 still competes heavily with a 2.2gHz P4.

Still, it would be nice to see a Processor War between the AMD Hammer, Intel Itanium2, and the G5.

 

[groovebuster]

Originally posted by Kid Red
Firstly, get the fricking latest machine then sit their and tell me it's slow and 30 years behind everyone. The people that bitch are on the slowest machines that aren't even produced anymore.

Upgrade before you bitch, because if you did, you wouldn't bitch, at least not as much.
(Now I'll go back to my spiffy dual gig and finish working)

Relax! Fact is, that some people (like me) didn't upgrade their Mac so far, because they always expected something big has to come soon to keep up with the performance of PCs. In fact there are jobs besides word-processing that need all the power you can get for an acceptable price.

I wanted to upgrade to a fast(!) Mac since End of 2000. Unfortunately Apple never closed the performnance gap between their machines and PCs. So I ended up to buy a G4 Quicksilver 733, because I couldn't wait any longer to upgrade my Mac. But I didn't want to spend all my money for a dual processor machine, that is just as fast a single processor AMD on most tasks. And why? Because I (and also a lot of other people) was awaiting something big to come within 6 months. So I put the saved money into a fast PC. Just fast, no DVD drive bull-sh*t or other needless gadgets. And let me tell you, for 2000$ you get a really nice machine already which is still faster than any Mac. So overall I spend the same money for 2(!!!!) computers. Not to mention, that the power of the two machines is adding up in some cases. So now the 6 months are over since about 3 months and Apple still didn't come with something worth to invest the money in for pros.

Don't get me wrong, I hate Windows, but at the moment my PC is the box doing most work to pay the diapers for my daughter, not my Mac.

As soon as Apple can compete again speedwise I am willing to spend my money for a DP Mac... but 'til then I just take what gets my work done faster.

So be careful with outbursts like that! I totally understand that people don't want to spend the same prize for half the speed. It's a question of staying competetive (If I need almost double the time for some stuff it is not a little problem anymore and time is money!!!) and to have budgets for new investments that have to be planned carefully. At least for me money isn't growing on trees. But if there is anyone who has too much of it, I am open-minded to adoption!

I really hope that Apple can surprise us very soon. If not I'll stick with the slution I have now. Tasks that need not much processor power on the Mac, high perfomance tasks on the PC.

Regards,

groovebuster

 

[Grokgod]

one more thing.

I think that I can add a pertinent thought here.

Comparing the newest highest end P4 to the 1Gig MAC or your G3 is rather silly.
Comparing the cpus latest and greatest and what will be out in the next year or after that is also silly.

Why? well because very few will run out and buy every single new release from every company. You go out and buy a P4 2.2 and then in a few whatever
YARNs, < taken from Farscape > there will be another new chip. you going to buy that right away also?
No, your not. Then the next release excetera. Only those that dont have a computer or are still running a G3 can have the luxury to look at the latest and greatest for purchases and the minute that they buy they are left behind in a dust of envy and remorse.

That brings me to the usual theory, does it work for you.
When i was working on a 100 htz way back when.
I would dream of 1 gigers, wow what a machine that would be, I would think.
I would accomplish so much, it would be so beautiful. what in the world more than that would I need.
Well , we always need more because bloatware is here to stay and processes become more complex etc.

If speed is a element that is always changing, then it is a variable that is unattainable! Other elements must be sought after and I think that Apple is creating those elements for us to a large degree.

Useability, beauty and grace are in these man made machines as much as an act of man can create within the confines of mass manufacturing. These things will improve with time, still yet.

I bought a new 800 Ti, yesterday. Depsite the fact that there are faster laptops out there. The new SOI chip was a decent enough crest of the wave for me, and i bought in.

When DDr comes out this summer on the PowerMacs, I will buy one.
Its on an acceptable crest of tech for me with the release of DDRam and improved speeds and the new Quartz Extreme.
A 1.4 and DDr will do a Mac great, despite the 2.4 p4's that are out.
Despite the fact that I plan on doing high end rendering and video editing on my Mac.
Despite the fact that the Pcheese has a faster chip etc.
Whatever the MAC can do I will work with because as we all know we are buying more than merely the cpu, its the Mac experience and what we can create with it.

If its rendering is slow at times, well I will do what I have always done and would have to do on any machine, walk away and live my life, not in waiting but in confidence that its being done.

 

[agreenster]

Excellent thoughts GrokGod, and your point is probably well taken by many (if not all) people here at MacRumors.

However, I think the reason many people compare the DP 1gHz Mac to the 2.2gHz P4 is because it is a fair test based on numbers, timeline, and newest technology. No, a handful of people keep up with the latest and greatest and buy right away. But the point is, they are just trying to make a fair comparison based on the date both machines came out, their numeric mHz rating, etc.

But I do love what you say in your last thought: Live your life, knowing that the work is getting done.

 

[Chetwood]

LOL!

Originally posted by Grokgod
Cripes , i hate XP, really!

Yes, it goes fast, very fast maybe thats why it crashs at least twice a session. Its going so fast that it can't steer out of the way of those byte walls or something.

LOL! That was cool!

 

[peterjhill]

Re: Do or Die for Apple in July ...

Originally posted by Recoil
AMD is going to come out with there new hammer chip sets in october . They will have PCI-X ,AGP 8x <snip>

but you can't run OS X on AMD chips. I like my PB800, it gives me bsd+MSOffice all native.

I can't bear to run Windows if I can help it. Work is giving me a PC desktop to supplement my Tibook, but since I probably won't touch it much, I'll probably install Linux on it and stick it behind a filing cabinet, hopefully it will be quiet.

I can use X and ssh tunnelling to use the machine.

Yeah, AMD, whatever, it's nice, sure. Apple is doing fine. They are competitive. When Jaguar comes out, I'll be even happier.

 

[wwworry]

Don't you think the people at Apple know what they are doing? Hasn't the past few years demonstrated their skill and forward thinking? Have a little respect why don't you! Only an idiot would think that they are not aware of the speed issues and are not doing what they CAN to solve them.

 

[Drewz]

Why do u think people buy Apple stuff .....??

For their software or Hardaware ........ ??

think about it ......???

 

[ces1965]

For audio applications, like software synths, there is a real need for speed, speed, speed. The software in most cases runs on both mac and PC. It's not like video, with Final Cut Pro. So, it is hard being a mac audio user in the current situation.

The only problem with XP is there's simply more problems. Windows is a piece of ****, plain and simple. I recently upgraded to XP, and I guess I though it would be some movement forward. It's still windows!!!! With c: drives, etc. I don't think they changed much at all, except it's more intrusive and I have to buy multiple copies.

And the plethora of hardware on the PC side, while yielding low prices through competition, has a serious dark side because you never know if it will work or have some conflict.

I finally got rid of 95% of the crackling sound with audio apps on my PC by updating the bios (booting from a floppy was required, more PC MS-DOS dark ages crap). To get rid of the remaining crackling, last night I tried to update the bios on my SCSI card. Now XP gets half way through booting and just dies. Time to wipe the drives and reinstall ****ing everything, and hope that works.

The PC is cheaper only when you don't factor in the extra time you spend fixing things and the years the PC takes off your life. Maybe your're lucky and nothing goes wrong. But remember - you got lucky. Also, you need to factor in the cost of any time you spend trying to figure out what components to buy and putting it all together. My XP installation actually went pretty smooth because I spent a lot of time (10-20 hours) researching the parts. I'm not sure I'd buy a gateway or dell for audio.

Oh yeah, PCs are like ****ing air conditioners they run so loud, so they're not so great playing quite piano pieces. OK, so you can make them quieter, but I had to order a new power supply and quieter fans ($150) to do that because I finally couldn't take the racket anymore.

I'm just waiting a little to buy a new mac because I sense big improvements are coming soon and the PC will get me by on audio for a while. There's not much OS X audio stuff yet anyway.

Another question. PC folks have had a nice run with the competiton between intel and AMD. But AMD has to price below intel and is losing money. I read intel is ready to put more pressure on AMD by lowering prices for CPUs in the 1.7 to 2 range. What if AMD goes under? Then the runup in PC performance might stop or moderate.

 

[Grokgod]

Ces1965 is totally right.

That was right on the spot!

If I could factor all the time in that I used up trying to get the damn Pcheese to work, I think that it must equal at least the amount of time I spent working on projects. Some people enjoy that kind of tinkering, it gives them the illusion of control.

Empasis on the ILLUSION!
These people arent really artists or creators.
What artist spends all his time cleaning the freakin brush!
An anal compulsive one thats for sure.

This is a year for me in which I am going to double on output.
Its going to be done on a MAC, If that machine takes a bit longer to output a render then so be it, because the final product will still have been done faster and will have left me feeling accomplished.

Oh yea, and i double what was said about Pcheese noise,, christ mine is like a plane that refuses to land. I thought it was busted and called up the company.
They said that the noise was normal, sheesh.
What kind of normal do they live in.

 

[imamacguy17]

the signs

Why doesnt anybody see the signs. THE G5 will be here at MWSF.

Major Signs

1) "Consumer" products have recieved G4 processors.

2) Specials on the Power Mac G4.

3) remember the introduction of the powermac g4. it was a board with all of the benefits of the g4 with a g3 chip. This time to prevent the debacle that ensued Apple will release the G4 with the board but still call it a g3.

The other thing is the suggestion that the jump in speed isnt going to be very big. If the G5 is rumored to have an intial range of 1.4-1.8 Ghz and tecnically the G4 can reach speeds of 1.4 Ghz (rumored) why wouldn't Apple release the G4 with all of the benefits (Firewire2, DDR, etc) with speeds that the initial G5 will start at. For example the final G4 machines would have specs like the xserve but speeds at 1.2,1.3,1.4 or even 1.0,1.2,1.4 and the first G5 would have speeds of 1.4,1.6,1.8. I dont know what the big deal is just get the best you can for you're money. Apple pretty much shows the warning signs for new processors/upgrades. If you need the newest greatest thing then wait until macworld. if you can deal with what there is out there go for it and take advange of the incentives.

 

[arn]

Re: the signs

Originally posted by imamacguy17
Why doesnt anybody see the signs. THE G5 will be here at MWSF.

Major Signs

How about this for a sign that the G5 will NOT be coming out in July... (I know you say MWSF, but the rest of your message implied you meant MWNY)

It is important to note that this is only the first installment in this [G4] processor family. "The big news here is that this device is certainly not topped out," said Swearingen. Mac users can reasonably expect incremental performance increases from this processor family in the future, taking Apollo to its promised GHz+ performance levels.

From Motorola in Jan. 2002 when they released the 1Ghz G4.

arn

 

[3rdpath]

at the risk of agreeing with arn( heh...), we won't see a G5 in july.

but we will see a healthy speed bump, DDR , bluetooth and maybe a new rack enclosure.( ok, so they CAN cram it into one rack space....) though i predict the rack will be 3u or 4u to allow for more PCI slots. i'll be very happy with that and i will buy one.

besides, i'm not real certain i'd want to get the first rev of the G5.

 

[mr.w]

I see all of these people saying that they'll leave apple if the speed jumps aren't considerable, but isn't being able to run osx reason enough to stay with apple? coupled with the new os (x.2) we should see speed increase by at least 40-50 %... the simple fact is that apple and motorola (or IBM) will never win the mhz race with AMD or Intel... it's not the race that we're in. I'll admit that it would be sweet to have a dual 2ghz G5, but right now im content with a dual 1ghz (extremely fast). Apple is in the business of producing quality computers, and no other company comes close to beating us there...

 

[spaceghost]

to recoil

Recoil,


You say you do digital audio, well so do I, professionally and I ain't using no PC.

The bottom line is if you say you do pro audio and you are using a PC, you do not know what you are talking about, because most if not all Pro's use a Mac, with Logic, Pro Tools, Digital Performer ON A MAC.

I know I am a pro audio engineer.

You also mention you use AMD, admittedly a great chip company, but what are you going to run.

2 choices Linux, if there are any Pro Audio apps on this platform, and doubtful it will get ahead os OS X.

or Windows XP, and you have to be joking.

Windows for ANY content creation production whether pro video or audio, most pro's are laughing at you right now.

This is equal to saying you are a Java or DBA or killer enterprise developer and you swear Mac OS 9 on an 333 MHz iMac is the killer platform.

You would be a laughing stock and have no credibility, just as you do know, talking about AMD and Windoze in the same sentence with Pro Video and Audio.

Apple summarily has this area wrapped up.

OS X is will continue be the choice for pro audio and pro video.

Also, where do you get your facts about AMD beating Macs in DSP, are you an engineer, probably not.

DSP comes down calculations, and the G4 (with Altivec) is still besting Pentium 4 and other chips.

The X server from what I have found out is besting DEC Alpha chips on Genetech's app Blast, arguably one of the most intensive calculating apps out there.

Do not buy the Processor speed Only argument, that most people will have you believe.

Now that being said, the Mac needs faster or should I say more powerful processors, but more importantly, a wider faster architecture, is more important at the outset.

Just look at Xserve and you see a preview.

That being said, we do need to see great things at MWNY, what I believe we will see.

1. Defintely a new enclosure, count on this
2. Probably a G4 7470 chip using .13 micron, which will get higher speeds, 1.4 Ghz and higher, at least dual's maybe more.
3. Firewire 2 (800 Mb going to 3.2 Gb).
4. ATA 100 or 133

And can we all Cut the **** with USB 2.0, it will never get past FireWire2 and there are NO products using it, you will NEVER see a Mini DV camera with USB 2.0 instead of FireWire. If USB 2.0 make it so what, not that important.

Firewire (2) is THE WAY Audio and Video will be handled now and in the future.

ProTools systems with overpriced PCI cards are going the way of the Do Do bird as are Avid Sytems.

333 (plus) MHz buses are coming, technologies like Hypertransport (or Rapid IO) are coming, they have to for things like HD video and the like.

Also lets please stop this OS X on Intel or some CISC based X86 architecture.

It WILL NEVER happen, just like FCP and DVD SP will NEVER, ever port to Windows (and Shake is being KILLED for Windows as we speak).

All of Apple's Apps would have to be Cocoa first which will take years, then recompiled for a new processor.

That being said, I don't think Apple is going to dump Power PC just because of this. All of Apple's Apps, FCP and the like will not work on the new Processor.

I am guessing a New Power PC from IBM with major Ghz headroom that has multiple cores on one chip, making up for the lack of Altivec if they decide to not go with Altivec, etc. (has been discussed here somewhere at MacRumors).


Bottom LIne: If you are doing Pro Audio, Video, 3D, DVD you will not be using any Pee Sea AMD Hack box running Windoze or Linux.

it will be the next Gen Power Macs, XServe ,and OS X, on FCP DVDSP, Maya, Shake, next gener audio programs that take advantage of Core Audio (DSP) in OS X.


Apple is poised to take over the pro and (even prosumer, consumer) Content creation market, just as much as Windoze has spread like cockroaches in the business world.

But let's not get delusions thinking Windoze XP or other is some great Content Creation or even enterprise level or database platform, it is not, even Windoze IT people will tell you that. They'll use Linux before using that.


Pro Video and Audio, etc. is one area Windoze will Never control, trust me, and there will be Apple's 30 % plus market share.

 

[Recoil]

Re: to recoil

Originally posted by spaceghost
Recoil,


You say you do digital audio, well so do I, professionally and I ain't using no PC.

The bottom line is if you say you do pro audio and you are using a PC, you do not know what you are talking about, because most if not all Pro's use a Mac, with Logic, Pro Tools, Digital Performer ON A MAC.

I know I am a pro audio engineer.

You also mention you use AMD, admittedly a great chip company, but what are you going to run.

2 choices Linux, if there are any Pro Audio apps on this platform, and doubtful it will get ahead os OS X.

or Windows XP, and you have to be joking.

Windows for ANY content creation production whether pro video or audio, most pro's are laughing at you right now.

This is equal to saying you are a Java or DBA or killer enterprise developer and you swear Mac OS 9 on an 333 MHz iMac is the killer platform.

You would be a laughing stock and have no credibility, just as you do know, talking about AMD and Windoze in the same sentence with Pro Video and Audio.

Apple summarily has this area wrapped up.

OS X is will continue be the choice for pro audio and pro video.

Also, where do you get your facts about AMD beating Macs in DSP, are you an engineer, probably not.

DSP comes down calculations, and the G4 (with Altivec) is still besting Pentium 4 and other chips.

The X server from what I have found out is besting DEC Alpha chips on Genetech's app Blast, arguably one of the most intensive calculating apps out there.

Do not buy the Processor speed Only argument, that most people will have you believe.

Now that being said, the Mac needs faster or should I say more powerful processors, but more importantly, a wider faster architecture, is more important at the outset.

Just look at Xserve and you see a preview.

That being said, we do need to see great things at MWNY, what I believe we will see.

1. Defintely a new enclosure, count on this
2. Probably a G4 7470 chip using .13 micron, which will get higher speeds, 1.4 Ghz and higher, at least dual's maybe more.
3. Firewire 2 (800 Mb going to 3.2 Gb).
4. ATA 100 or 133

And can we all Cut the **** with USB 2.0, it will never get past FireWire2 and there are NO products using it, you will NEVER see a Mini DV camera with USB 2.0 instead of FireWire. If USB 2.0 make it so what, not that important.

Firewire (2) is THE WAY Audio and Video will be handled now and in the future.

ProTools systems with overpriced PCI cards are going the way of the Do Do bird as are Avid Sytems.

333 (plus) MHz buses are coming, technologies like Hypertransport (or Rapid IO) are coming, they have to for things like HD video and the like.

Also lets please stop this OS X on Intel or some CISC based X86 architecture.

It WILL NEVER happen, just like FCP and DVD SP will NEVER, ever port to Windows (and Shake is being KILLED for Windows as we speak).

All of Apple's Apps would have to be Cocoa first which will take years, then recompiled for a new processor.

That being said, I don't think Apple is going to dump Power PC just because of this. All of Apple's Apps, FCP and the like will not work on the new Processor.

I am guessing a New Power PC from IBM with major Ghz headroom that has multiple cores on one chip, making up for the lack of Altivec if they decide to not go with Altivec, etc. (has been discussed here somewhere at MacRumors).


Bottom LIne: If you are doing Pro Audio, Video, 3D, DVD you will not be using any Pee Sea AMD Hack box running Windoze or Linux.

it will be the next Gen Power Macs, XServe ,and OS X, on FCP DVDSP, Maya, Shake, next gener audio programs that take advantage of Core Audio (DSP) in OS X.


Apple is poised to take over the pro and (even prosumer, consumer) Content creation market, just as much as Windoze has spread like cockroaches in the business world.

But let's not get delusions thinking Windoze XP or other is some great Content Creation or even enterprise level or database platform, it is not, even Windoze IT people will tell you that. They'll use Linux before using that.


Pro Video and Audio, etc. is one area Windoze will Never control, trust me, and there will be Apple's 30 % plus market share.

http://www.digitalnaturalsound.com/logic_dsp/msg/910.html

 

[spaceghost]

and your point would be...

and your point would be...

Your obviously a PC troll, just go back to PC land, you don't belong here.

And if you think you will be working in pro audio or video)working on a PC you will be laughed at an unemployed.

You forget the main point.

The OS and the apps.

And Windoze (and it's lame apps) aint it.

Hardware can and will get fatser and Apple (SJ) will be able to use whatever and whichever is the fastest, best hardware out there.

When it comes to creation content, Apple does the whole thing, OS X, Hardware and killer Apps, and this is will continue to be the most important thing in Apple having and forever maintaining its lead in this area.

Go try and get some work on your winblows / linux / AMD hack box, tell them what you are using, again, you'll be a laughing stock and unemployed.

 

[cb911]

what is the point of that!!!???? why would you quote such a long post???? nutcases....
i
now, back onto the subject. i was looking at a PC mag yesterday and saw that there are 2.4GHz P4 laptops out. *2.4GHz P4 laptops?? i still like my TiBook, but this is crazy. the next big relese will have to be a radical departure from the current G4s and the 1.4GHz dual G4 being released at NY. i've going to have to keep my TiBook for the next two years, and i just hope that Apple has some crazy laptop out by then.

 

[SilvorX]

was reading half a year ago that if Motorola/IBM get out of making processors for apple, AMD may come in and start producing them for apple since Apple and AMD have a way better relationship than Apple and Intel...
n cuz of this, lots of wintel users were thinking that osx may be ported out onto x86 lol

 

[bonehead]

Bottom LIne: If you are doing Pro Audio, Video, 3D, DVD you will not be using any Pee Sea AMD Hack box running Windoze or Linux.

spaceghost: (if you're in FLA and I'm in CA then this is coast to coast), some people in video and many people in 3D use Window$. A rack of PCs for a render farm is much cheaper than a rack of Macs. Although I'd wager the majority of feature film/television/commercial/music video editing is performed on Macs, there are those who run PC Avids and love them. Also, Unity, Avid's networking product that allows multiple systems to use centralized media storage, is a Windows only application. So even though Macs are the dominant platform in media creation, PCs are used.

 

[Tokyo]

Re: to recoil

Originally posted by spaceghost
And can we all Cut the **** with USB 2.0, it will never get past FireWire2 and there are NO products using it, you will NEVER see a Mini DV camera with USB 2.0 instead of FireWire. If USB 2.0 make it so what, not that important.

Wish I could agree with you on that. Maybe it's true for high-end products made only for professionals, but for the mass market, USB 2 is starting to take off--here in Japan it is more common than Firewire already--and I have heard reports of USB 2 on some digital cameras.

The sad fact is, the Wintel industries more or less own USB, and hate Firewire (why else would they insist on calling it "IEEE 1394," an ungainly name at best, and confuses a lot of people).


Tokyo

 

[iapple]

Re: Re: to recoil

Originally posted by Tokyo
Wish I could agree with you on that. Maybe it's true for high-end products made only for professionals, but for the mass market, USB 2 is starting to take off--here in Japan it is more common than Firewire already--and I have heard reports of USB 2 on some digital cameras.

The sad fact is, the Wintel industries more or less own USB, and hate Firewire (why else would they insist on calling it "IEEE 1394," an ungainly name at best, and confuses a lot of people).


Tokyo

I live in Yokohama, Japan, and I also agree that USB 2.0 is taking off, and external HDs are available in USB 2.0. and it is REALLY annoying to see IEEE 1394 on the boxes! FIREWIRE is the name FIREWIRE!!!!! And Sony calls it iLink! Just because Apple started and not MS, doesn't mean they can "abuse" this great technology! (sorry to ramble on...)

As soon as OS X audio apps are out, we can see the power of X.

And can people stop fussing about pure performance? A 1GHz G4 is good at somethings, Athlons are good at somethings, P4s aren't good at many things, but that's life. If you wanna use the great OS, maybe you can put up the hardware, that "might not" be the fastest in the world!!! Jeez, take it easy man, are you going to feel that superior because you finished rendering 30 seconds after a PC??? COME ON!

 

[mmmdreg]

It's hardly a do-or-die situation...rather a letdown thing...but it everything seems to point to Apple releasing those new PowerMacs so theres nothing too much to get dissapointed on...unless it only becomes a minor speed bump with no other changes..

 

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Recoil
Thanks for not bashing me . I love macs and yes I am a little frustrated by moto and apple . I should have cleared up a few things before so you can see the world though my eyes .

me too

sometimes i think apple needs to look into a partnership with amd besides their moto and ibm connections

motorola makes a great processor no doubt, it's always just a little bit too late

apple's operating systems is the advantage we have over the pc world and xp is the first real attempt at an nt os which is truly multimedia compatible

apple's os are multimedia now for years

sure, some artists ran windows nt 4/w2k with their art, but they also had to write their own device drivers which is not an easy task...or get a techie to do that which eats time

i would rather spend the hours of my creative life worrying about the art and not about the os and troubleshooting more than i have to

 

[gopher]

G4 not all that slow now

Check my post in the other thread:

https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php3?s=&postid=72070#post72069

I won't repeat it here, to save on bandwidth.