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MacRumors
Feb 6, 2004, 04:27 AM
According to one reader, Apple will have a "huge" presence at Siggraph (http://www.siggraph.org/s2004/) this year.

Siggraph 2004 is "the 31st international conference on computer graphics and interactive techniques". The conference takes place between August 8-12, 2004 in the Los Angeles Conference Center in Los Angeles, California.

Last year, while Apple had a "strong presence" (http://www.macnn.com/news/20438) at Siggraph 2003, they did not hold an official booth... This year Apple is reported to have one of the largest presences of any vendor in the show.

virividox
Feb 6, 2004, 04:30 AM
unleash the graphic power of the g5 upon the world and see other platforms tremble

AssassinOfGates
Feb 6, 2004, 04:32 AM
Hmm, i remember reading one anylyst's views on how Apple might acquire Pixar now that they dumped disney, and since both are obviously owned by Jobs. I find this hard to believe, but if it were to happen this is probably where. I can also only hope that Pixar makes a new short :D

Stike
Feb 6, 2004, 05:02 AM
Smells like a huge Pixar presentation of Renderman on a G5... corresponding with new G5s? Would be the right moment to reveal them..

lind0834
Feb 6, 2004, 05:06 AM
xServe xGrid - Pixar.

mac15
Feb 6, 2004, 05:22 AM
Interesting, I'm pretty much certain they'd be showing off the new Xserve G5s and some sort of a render farm demo type thing. I don't think Apple really need any more exposure in the graphics department ;)

redAPPLE
Feb 6, 2004, 05:46 AM
i do not think SJ OWNS pixar and apple.

he is the CEO, but not the owner.

IronChef
Feb 6, 2004, 06:05 AM
Apple did NOT have a huge presence...just a booth sponsored by some professional trainers teaching Shake. It looked and felt like a corporate training session but they didn't let people just walkup and touch the machines.

Shake was terriffic but I think in the light of letting users ask pro-level questions...the booth was not that impressive.

arn
Feb 6, 2004, 06:07 AM
Originally posted by redAPPLE
i do not think SJ OWNS pixar and apple.

he is the CEO, but not the owner.

Actually... Steve Jobs was the owner at one point I believe... he bought the company from Lucas.

Since then, it's now a publically traded company... so no one person "owns it"... but Jobs may still have a significant share of it.

arn

beelesbob
Feb 6, 2004, 06:15 AM
Shake was terriffic but I think in the light of letting users ask pro-level questions...it was not that impressive.

Hmm, yes, shake isn't that impressive... It was only used to composite LotR: RotK, that's not a big professional production requiring a lot of compositing special effects.</sarcasm>

Bob

Sol
Feb 6, 2004, 06:20 AM
In Siggraph Apple can show off its latest technologies, including the G5 XServes, X Raid, Pixlet, Shake and X Grid. If XGrid can be used by non-Apple applications like Maya and Renderman then 3D artists would have another good reason to go Mac.

It would be great if Apple announced that high-end 3D cards will be compatible with G5 PowerMacs. For some reason this has not happened yet.

ThomasJefferson
Feb 6, 2004, 06:21 AM
3 points beelesbob !

BaghdadBob
Feb 6, 2004, 06:30 AM
This wouldn't be a MacRumors article without at least one negative rating. What gives?

Renderman seems the most likely.

ipiloot
Feb 6, 2004, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by arn
Actually... Steve Jobs was the owner at one point I believe... he bought the company from Lucas.

Since then, it's now a publically traded company... so no one person "owns it"... but Jobs may still have a significant share of it.

arn

Afaik Steve still holds 55% of Pixar.

justytylor
Feb 6, 2004, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by beelesbob
Hmm, yes, shake isn't that impressive... It was only used to composite LotR: RotK, that's not a big professional production requiring a lot of compositing special effects.</sarcasm>

Bob

Hate to do this to you, but you need to learn to diagram sentences. IronChef meant that the presentation wasn't that impressive, what with the inability to actually get on machines to use the software. Perhaps the employees doing the Shake demo weren't terribly knowledgeable at the time? Remember, IronChef points out that "Shake is terrific" right at the beginning of the sentence you criticize. No need for <sarcasm> if you're not going to read closely.

Justy

ITR 81
Feb 6, 2004, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by arn
Actually... Steve Jobs was the owner at one point I believe... he bought the company from Lucas.

Since then, it's now a publically traded company... so no one person "owns it"... but Jobs may still have a significant share of it.

arn

Jobs owns 55% of Pixar and rest is owned by individual share holders.

Fox News did special on Disney and Pixar...in which Roy Disney said ME was making a big mistake and is killing the company.

Mr. Anderson
Feb 6, 2004, 07:13 AM
Sounds great, G5s (rev C by August might be a bit much to ask for), XGrid, speed bumped XServes - now I'll bet lots of people would love to see Maya Unlimited ported to the Mac - that would make some serious tremors in the 3D App market....:D

I'd love to go, but I don't think it will happen.

D

stingerman
Feb 6, 2004, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by ITR 81
Jobs owns 55% of Pixar and rest is owned by individual share holders.

Fox News did special on Disney and Pixar...in which Roy Disney said ME was making a big mistake and is killing the company.

And his ownership of Apple continues to grow. I believe it is over 6% now. That is no loose change by any means. A purchase of Pixar's Renderman in exchange for Apple stock, would give Steve a larger share of Apple. I can see the day when Pixar's software development arm goes over to Apple and Apple acquires other software, such as Maya. It makes sense to me.

Mr. Anderson
Feb 6, 2004, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by stingerman
I can see the day when Pixar's software development arm goes over to Apple and Apple acquires other software, such as Maya. It makes sense to me.

There was a rumor about Apple buying Maya - Alias/Wavefront last year - caused a huge stir, actually. Enough of one that the President of Alias/Wavefront definitively said in an interview that it wasn't going to happen. Given that, and the fact the Renderman is now available for purchase, we might see a Apple 3D app based on Renderman before Apple buys up Maya.

It would make more sense, but a huge effort in development, since Renderman isn't a simple system. And they'd need a modeler as well.

D

srobert
Feb 6, 2004, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by mac15
Interesting, I'm pretty much certain they'd be showing off the new Xserve G5s and some sort of a render farm demo type thing. I don't think Apple really need any more exposure in the graphics department ;)

On the contrary I think that the mac platform lost a good deal of graphic professionnal users in the Moto-Dark-Ages. Ans since all the major apps are available on both platforms, Apple has to make a point that there is an advantage in using a "more expensive' mac for your graphic needs.

I think you may be right on the render farm though.

hokka
Feb 6, 2004, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by ITR 81
Jobs owns 55% of Pixar and rest is owned by individual share holders.

Fox News did special on Disney and Pixar...in which Roy Disney said ME was making a big mistake and is killing the company.

It's 56% to be precise :) [according to Page 32 of Pixar's 2003 financial report - http://www.shareholder.com/Common/Edgar/1002114/891618-03-1511/03-00.pdf ]

"Our Chief Executive Officer, Steve Jobs, beneficially owns approximately 56% of our outstanding Common Stock as of March 4, 2003. As a result, Mr. Jobs, acting alone, is able to exercise sole discretion over all matters requiring shareholder approval, including the election of the entire board of directors and approval of significant corporate transactions, including an acquisition of Pixar. Such concentration of ownership may also have the effect of delaying or preventing a change in control of Pixar, impeding a merger, consolidation, takeover or other business combination involving Pixar, or discouraging a potential acquirer from making a tender offer or otherwise attempting to obtain control of Pixar."

Ha! by the look of things SJ is not going to let the Apple past fiasco happen again! He has TOTAL control...

jrv3034
Feb 6, 2004, 08:05 AM
I have a feelin that the G5 won't reach Rev B until then. This would mean we'll have the dual 2GHz as the top of the line for almost a year, and then make a huge leap into 3GHz range. :confused:

On the contrary I think that the mac platform lost a good deal of graphic professionnal users in the Moto-Dark-Ages. Ans since all the major apps are available on both platforms, Apple has to make a point that there is an advantage in using a "more expensive' mac for your graphic needs.

It would be awesome if Renderman showed up for the Mac. They've already said in the G5 promo video that they felt the G5 was the most powerful computer out there. Let''s seee them take advantage of that.;)

Mr. Anderson
Feb 6, 2004, 08:11 AM
The Rev B. G5 won't wait until August - a whole year before we see a speed bump? That would just be deadly and stupid - harkening back to the days of Motorola supplied chips.

Not to mention the mass hysteria/angnst that would precede the wait. Apple would be getting some serious flak for putting off the upgrade that long.

D

Selecter
Feb 6, 2004, 08:51 AM
Best guess is around march, first week or last week. Believe or Mac OS rumors posted something on this I actually agree with. They claim Apple is holding back release of the Rev. B's becuase they are stuffing a lot of those 970fx's into the Xserves meant for the Virginia Tech upgarde, which unlike last time where they pissed some poeple off. they know whats coming and can take care of Virginia Tech without impact to other customers. Last I heard there are 1,600 Xserves going in there. So that's 3200 CPUs used JUST for 1 customer.

It's rare that macosorumors makes sense, but that does make sense to me.

silvergunuk
Feb 6, 2004, 08:54 AM
I hope Apple announces that they bought Luxology and Alias. Modo as a modeler and maya for animation, rigging and particle system and put it all in a package with a cut down version of renderman for a nice tidy sum of $2000.

Apple could have held off with the release of the new G5 because of an announcment by the Hypertransport consortium to move over to version 2 with faster speeds and the ability to support PCI Express

Mikekmac
Feb 6, 2004, 09:01 AM
The G4s were still good machines for Photoshop and Video Production, but not for 3D renderiing. I teach a Multimedia class, and we have several Dual G4s and they are great in Photoshop and Final Cut, but Maya brings them to their knees when it is time to render. I recently purchased 2 G5 dual 1.8s and we are seeing 3.5 to 4 times increases in rendering speeds. So the G5 fills in the last piece of the film production puzzle for Apple. It now has brute force in addition to Altivec. Add that to their awsome software, they should look impressive at Siggraph.

Blark
Feb 6, 2004, 09:05 AM
What was frustrating about Apple at last year's SIGGRAPH was that they had just announced these hot new machines at WWDC, and the anticipation of them at SIGGRAPH was palpable. People wanted to see them, even if they weren't available yet. Yet all Apple had was a tutorial booth where you could try Shake, running on G4s. This seemed like an enormous lost opportunity; but we must remember that at that point, not all Apple's ducks were in a row for the SIGGRAPH crowd: the machines were not available; there were no pro-level graphics cards for the G5; there were no apps tuned for the G5; and there were no optimizing compilers for the G5.

The only G5 on the floor was at Pixar's booth, where Pixar engineers were demoing renderman rendering a scene from Finding Nemo on the G5. It was faster (on most scenes) than then current Pentiums or Xeons.

You could also wangle (with some effort) a one-on-one with a Shake engineer and a G5 at a hotel suite. That was my first opportunity to really see the G5 closeup, and to ask detailed questions about it.

What the current rumour suggests is that Apple expects those aforementioned ducks to be in a row by this summer: there may be new pro-level graphics cards available (and Mac OS updates may have addressed some of the "OpenGL gap" by then; fingers crossed); IBM's XLC, GCC and Metrowerks newer compilers will have been available long enough that Alias, Newtek, Maxon, Kaydara, etc. may have G5 optimized versions by then; and there may be Dual 3 Ghz Power Macs that demonstrate unequivocal advantages over the Pentium, Xeon, and Opteron crowd.

We can only hope...

Blark

phillymjs
Feb 6, 2004, 09:27 AM
If I were a betting man:

1. Speed-bumped G5s announced before the end of February, "Fastest" model probably sporting dual 2.6GHz CPUs.

2. At the August show, Apple announces and demos the promised 3GHz G5 machines, with shipments to start in late August/early September-- possible preferential shipping to .edus since it's the start of school.

3. People who stupidly bought G5's just prior to these announcements will piss and moan incessantly on every Mac news site because their machine isn't a current model anymore.

I'm only 100% sure about #3.

~Philly

Mr. Anderson
Feb 6, 2004, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by phillymjs
If I were a betting man:
3. People who stupidly bought G5's just prior to these announcements will piss and moan incessantly on every Mac news site because their machine isn't a current model anymore.

I'm only 100% sure about #3.


ha!! well, that happens regardless of what machine you end up buying.....:D

The only real difference or issues with that is when its a major upgrade (g4>g5) :D Then you only have yourself to blame for not following the rumors....

D

etoiles
Feb 6, 2004, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by silvergunuk
I hope Apple announces that they bought Luxology and Alias. Modo as a modeler and maya for animation, rigging and particle system and put it all in a package with a cut down version of renderman for a nice tidy sum of $2000.


LOL, anything else ? A little bubble bath and a back scrub maybe ? :D

I think it would already be fantastic if they released Maya Unlimited and Modo... Luxology already likes the G5/OSX a lot, not sure Apple has to buy them.

MongoTheGeek
Feb 6, 2004, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by phillymjs
If I were a betting man:

1. Speed-bumped G5s announced before the end of February, "Fastest" model probably sporting dual 2.6GHz CPUs.

2. At the August show, Apple announces and demos the promised 3GHz G5 machines, with shipments to start in late August/early September-- possible preferential shipping to .edus since it's the start of school.

3. People who stupidly bought G5's just prior to these announcements will piss and moan incessantly on every Mac news site because their machine isn't a current model anymore.

I'm only 100% sure about #3.

~Philly

#1 I think the top will either be kissing 3 or 2.3 which has been lying (lieing) in alt-text on the Apple Front page for a month now. I think Apple is through with this speed bump diaper lining though and will just jump.

#2 Perhaps. August is late for schools though. They start end of August, and if this snow keeps up will run til august. I hope for power5's at WWDC.

#3 is totally wrong. Even if monday came with announcements of 4Ghz multicore DP G5's. I wouldn't mind. Yes I would do a little breaking of the 10th commandment but I needed it when I got it and I don't regret getting it.

anodized
Feb 6, 2004, 10:55 AM
Rev C G5 are suppossed to come out "within a year" so that should be by august.

Frobozz
Feb 6, 2004, 12:17 PM
It's important that Apple make large announcements at non-Apple centric events. It's all about perception. If Apple is participating in the larger venues, they are saying they're relevant to a wider crowd. For the first time since it's introduction (or at least the later 80's) they are actually relevant to a wide crowd again. Scientists, Lawyers, Brokers, Artists, Engineers, etc. all use the Mac en mass.

It's nice to see the Mac gaining in mind share, and in some cases, market share. They are on their way up, my friends! I love it.

crenz
Feb 6, 2004, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by silvergunuk
I hope Apple announces that they bought Luxology and Alias. Modo as a modeler and maya for animation, rigging and particle system and put it all in a package with a cut down version of renderman for a nice tidy sum of $2000.

While that looks nice price-wise, I am not a fan of Apple being a major player in many different leagues (like Microsoft). I'm all for diversity...

Paramedic
Feb 6, 2004, 12:21 PM
This announcement by Apple only solidifies their lack of involvement in the Boston show, if it even happens..

Also, all this talk about Apple acquiring more software companies - not too sure about this. Apple is primarily a Hardware company that does create software to help sell it's machines. I don't think they're currently looking to grow in the other direction, right now.

Peej
Feb 6, 2004, 12:32 PM
So, we made it to the second page of replies on an Apple-attented event with nobody mentioning G5 PBs? Congratulations everyone!!:)

Mr. Anderson
Feb 6, 2004, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Peej
So, we made it to the second page of replies on an Apple-attented event with nobody mentioning G5 PBs? Congratulations everyone!!:)

But we're talking high end stuff here - even a G5 PB would be underpowered to be a serious contender in 3D apps.

The XServe, XGrid and PowerMac Workstation are key here....

D

iomar
Feb 6, 2004, 12:48 PM
This is great! I will be there for sure! Can't wait!!!!!

etoiles
Feb 6, 2004, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Peej
So, we made it to the second page of replies on an Apple-attented event with nobody mentioning G5 PBs? Congratulations everyone!!:)

thanks for spoiling it, it was too good to be true...:D

winmacguy
Feb 6, 2004, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Mr. Anderson
There was a rumor about Apple buying Maya - Alias/Wavefront last year - caused a huge stir, actually. Enough of one that the President of Alias/Wavefront definitively said in an interview that it wasn't going to happen. Given that, and the fact the Renderman is now available for purchase, we might see a Apple 3D app based on Renderman before Apple buys up Maya.

It would make more sense, but a huge effort in development, since Renderman isn't a simple system. And they'd need a modeler as well.

D

That would be a pretty big deal. Imagine the whole of Weta studios being run on an Xserve G5 renderwall. I know they use IBM Opteron chips running Linux at the moment with G5s doing other stuff. They will however be looking at upgrading systems when they do a remake of King Kong next.

mgargan1
Feb 6, 2004, 02:31 PM
hmm.. maybe a new imac, or cube? That would be sweet of apple to have a new cube... or sphere. But everyone here as well as myself, knows that it's prolly not gonna happen.

dave@utpb
Feb 6, 2004, 02:37 PM
As a regular attendee of SIGGRAPH conference since 1990, I would be very happy to see a major Apple presence at Los Angles this summer in the form of their own booth. I do not believe they have had one since the '95 or '96 conference. As the SIGGRAPH conference has become a major showcase for production solutions in film and video, and especially when the conference is in Los Angeles, the ability to demonstrate a range of solutions to professionals is key. I'm sure Apple will have new things to show, but what is more important is that they will again let production companies know they are serious about this market.

Dave

mdriftmeyer
Feb 6, 2004, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by redAPPLE
i do not think SJ OWNS pixar and apple.

he is the CEO, but not the owner.

Steve Owns 80% of the stock in PIXAR. He never owned more than 10-15% in Apple when he sold all but 1 share during his removal. The 80% is not based upon common stock but overall assets of the company.

lem0nayde
Feb 6, 2004, 03:04 PM
Apple would need a serious 3D card too if it wants to enter the 3D animation/special effects market with any force. It looks like noone else is going to make one, so hopefully they've invested some time and R&D into getting that done.

To the person who said they hope Pixar makes another short, they have, it is called Boundin' and there is a preview of it here:

http://pixar.com/shorts/bdn/index.html

It looks fantastic. It was nominated for an Oscar this year (not sure how, it must have been released somewhere, Sundance maybe.)

PaisanoMan
Feb 6, 2004, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by mgargan1
hmm.. maybe a new imac, or cube? That would be sweet of apple to have a new cube... or sphere. But everyone here as well as myself, knows that it's prolly not gonna happen.

I think many readers don't understand that SIGGRAPH isn't an ordinary computer conference -- it's intended for industry professionals and academics.

Apple won't introduce a new consumer product (iMac) there.

agreenster
Feb 6, 2004, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by jrv3034
It would be awesome if Renderman showed up for the Mac. They've already said in the G5 promo video that they felt the G5 was the most powerful computer out there. Let''s seee them take advantage of that.;)

Renderman is already available for the Mac. It was showcased last year at Siggraph and compared speeds of the dual 2ghz G5 and a dual 2.8 Xeon. The G5 beat it in rendertimes by more than 30 seconds a frame. I used to have a screenshot of it....now where is that....

This (Apple @ 04 siggraph) comes as no suprise to me. Many large studios in the industry are switching to mac, primarily for OSX. I can name at least 4 major studios looking at upgrading from Linux/Irix/x86/SGI systems to OSX/G5 systems. (pixar being one of em).

mstecker
Feb 6, 2004, 05:34 PM
How could this possibly be a negative story?

Someone who voted this story a "negative" please come forward and explain yourself.

Or you will be asked to sit with a tin-foil hat on in the windows-time-out corner.

coldsteel
Feb 6, 2004, 06:17 PM
[banned]

jadam
Feb 6, 2004, 06:24 PM
Hah take that all us apple lovers!

geerlingguy
Feb 6, 2004, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by hokka
It's 56% to be precise :) [according to Page 32 of Pixar's 2003 financial report - http://www.shareholder.com/Common/Edgar/1002114/891618-03-1511/03-00.pdf ]

"Our Chief Executive Officer, Steve Jobs, beneficially owns approximately 56% of our outstanding Common Stock as of March 4, 2003. As a result, Mr. Jobs, acting alone, is able to exercise sole discretion over all matters requiring shareholder approval, including the election of the entire board of directors and approval of significant corporate transactions, including an acquisition of Pixar. Such concentration of ownership may also have the effect of delaying or preventing a change in control of Pixar, impeding a merger, consolidation, takeover or other business combination involving Pixar, or discouraging a potential acquirer from making a tender offer or otherwise attempting to obtain control of Pixar."

Ha! by the look of things SJ is not going to let the Apple past fiasco happen again! He has TOTAL control...

Is it safe to give Steve that much power??? ;)

gothamac
Feb 6, 2004, 09:57 PM
this site has become lame

Mac Kiwi
Feb 6, 2004, 10:31 PM
I would like to see Apple buy Mirai and resurrect it :D ,that would really rock.


There are still also a number of plugins that would need ported yet for studios to totally jump ship.

hal9000
Feb 6, 2004, 10:59 PM
How about, say, a Cocoa-based 3D modeling library that interfaces with OpenGL and the RenderMan Client Library?

Mac Kiwi
Feb 7, 2004, 03:25 AM
That would be nice :D



Does anyone know if one of the new improvments for the update is an over hauled Open GL?,man I hope it is...

agreenster
Feb 7, 2004, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by gothamac
this site has become lame

Its not that the site is lame, its that there is nothing to really talk about right now. Apple is unusually quiet these days, probably because something big is around the corner.

Besides, talking about Pixar and Apple, and them making a huge presence at Siggraph (only the biggest CG expo in the world) isnt lame.

So anyway, I found the pic I was talking about from last year. Credit goes to the guy from cgtalk who snapped it. (whoever he was)

jadam
Feb 7, 2004, 11:00 AM
heh wait... I thought the PS2 could do it in realtime!

etoiles
Feb 7, 2004, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by Mac Kiwi
I would like to see Apple buy Mirai and resurrect it :D ,that would really rock.


mmmmh, interesting thought, VERY interesting. Haven't heard much about Izware lately...could they be up to something ?

This might be a bit of a stretch, but you know: Shake has been used extensively on 'Lord of the Rings', and they also used Mirai for some modeling, I think ? I am sure some Apple reps must have been in the studios at some point, maybe some business cards were exchanged...

I am probably just dreaming :D

army_guy
Feb 7, 2004, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by lem0nayde
Apple would need a serious 3D card too if it wants to enter the 3D animation/special effects market with any force. It looks like noone else is going to make one, so hopefully they've invested some time and R&D into getting that done.

To the person who said they hope Pixar makes another short, they have, it is called Boundin' and there is a preview of it here:

http://pixar.com/shorts/bdn/index.html

It looks fantastic. It was nominated for an Oscar this year (not sure how, it must have been released somewhere, Sundance maybe.)

They do need a very good 3dcard for this market, currently the AGP pro cards either dont work in the G5 (wildcat with AGP50) or dont fit (WILDCAT AGP110) or they could get away with somin like an Nvidia Quadro FX3000 but then again theres still no drivers for the quadro boards.

army_guy
Feb 7, 2004, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Blark
and there may be Dual 3 Ghz Power Macs that demonstrate unequivocal advantages over the Pentium, Xeon, and Opteron crowd.

Blark

Ohh please, this is the kind of people who make me laugh. Advantages ohhh over xeon/opteron, what are you talking about? your making out like these are crap machines? The major 3d tools major platform is still x86. They have moved from unix to linux and windows. 3D Studio Max is still windows and also Softimage is still linux/windows. I should also mention that Mental Ray also scales better than render man, Until these major tools come to OSX the "serious users" will still use the current platform.

I thought the G5 was a great machine and still is however the performance is exagarated when you see an Opteron running 64-bit linux ripping through an Hspice simulation with a power 4 sitting beside it id think hard about what your saying.

As for renderfarms i havent been keeping up to date with the subject but from personal experience id stick with the SUN systems.

aswitcher
Feb 7, 2004, 03:02 PM
So if Apple do have a 30" screen up their sleeves is this perhaps the best place to release it?

army_guy
Feb 7, 2004, 03:27 PM
Maybe they do maybe they dont, ive not seen any 30" panals suitable for monitors. If they do release it I can prety much guess they will have a rediculous response time and lousy brightness due to the panel size. This is assuming that the bleedin edge technology of the 23" panels has 16ms response time the 30" will have will be anywhere from 30-80ms.

Mr. Anderson
Feb 7, 2004, 03:53 PM
The G5 has far from reached its maturity in terms of a Pro machine....its a good start, but there are some things that we're all waiting for.

Now whether Apple will get us these things sooner or later is anybodies guess :D

As for Render Farms, all I have to say is look at Virginia Tech's Big Mac (http://www.cs.vt.edu/site_pages/home/whatsnews_systemx.php) (1100 Dual G5 cluster super computer) that cost in the neighborhood of 5 million. It gets over 10 Teraflops - extrapolating to a render farm of say 110 machines ( 1/10th the size) and you get a system for about 500k that does over 1 Teraflop - that's damn fast, cheap and impressive. :D

D

Scottgfx
Feb 7, 2004, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by army_guy
...3D Studio Max is still windows...

3DS Max has existed only on Windows. It's not moved from or to anywhere. (Wait, I take that back... The developers came from AtartST and Amiga backgrounds) I'm currently using Lightwave... That came from the Amiga. I'm still waiting for Crystal Topaz to make the big leap from DOS to Linux. :)

Once we start seeing properly optimized code on the G5, I think any disparities you have seen will shrink or evaporate. I saw Pixar's demo of Rendering on the G5 as a good example of it's potential.

Mac Kiwi
Feb 7, 2004, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by etoiles
mmmmh, interesting thought, VERY interesting. Haven't heard much about Izware lately...could they be up to something ?

This might be a bit of a stretch, but you know: Shake has been used extensively on 'Lord of the Rings', and they also used Mirai for some modeling, I think ? I am sure some Apple reps must have been in the studios at some point, maybe some business cards were exchanged...

I am probably just dreaming :D



I am pretty sure Bay Raitt used Mirai for those wonderful Gollum edge loops :D ,and Z brush I think for the normal mapping.



Apple must be getting tons of feedback from studios now,so they know what improvments are needed.



I bought a dual 2ghz which because of the backload of orders took ages to get to me here in NZ,but now I am going to upgrade for sure if I can get a dual 2.6,thats a lot of extra frames rendered as opposed to dual 2ghz.I was lucky because I was waiting on my monitors to arrive,I did not actually take my new machine out of the box,so that will save me some money I hope.I know it could be an expensive upgrade though,hopefully not but if it is so be it. :)

jadam
Feb 7, 2004, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by army_guy
They do need a very good 3dcard for this market, currently the AGP pro cards either dont work in the G5 (wildcat with AGP50) or dont fit (WILDCAT AGP110) or they could get away with somin like an Nvidia Quadro FX3000 but then again theres still no drivers for the quadro boards.

I dont get it... Why? All the rendering is done via the CPU anyways, so why does it matter what graphics card you have?

bernardb
Feb 7, 2004, 06:53 PM
You need a high end graphics card for interactive OpenGL display when actually modeling or setting up your animations. You have to be able to move around in a scene that may have millions of polygons without waiting 30 seconds for the screen to refresh. And actually in Maya5.0, there is a short list of graphics cards that support hardware rendering as opposed to software rendering or mental ray.

Rocketman
Feb 7, 2004, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by anodized
Rev C G5 are suppossed to come out "within a year" so that should be by august.

G5-3000Mhz. Demo prototypes at the show. Take orders. Deliveries late September.

X-grid compatible.

G6-980 X-serve (workstation class "iron"). Optimized for rendering farms. Announced. Demoed. Orders taken for Christmas delivery.

High premium price.

Rocketman

howtoplaydead
Feb 7, 2004, 07:49 PM
I doubt apple can hold off that long w/out releasing anything significantly new in the hardware department.

i think that they'll release something before march. they need to do more to the iMac other than just speed bumps and monitor increments. By this time (after release of orginal iMac) we had an array of colorful iMac DVs. The PowerBook in my mind has lost its appeal and also needs some sort of special makeover.

The TiBooks were sexy, these have lit-up keyboards? the G3s had that pretty, smooth, intresting rubber casing. these current AlBooks are no more intresting than an iBook (which is boring).

Originally posted by gothamac
this site has become lame

It's not this site that has become boring, it's Apple's lineup of hardware.

Although we are offered some kick-ass new user-line software and proffesional grade state-of-the-art stuff from Apple, the hardware is lame (and the G5 is aging as a new high-end machine from Apple at dual 2Ghz, this next speed bump better be good. Remember when the G4/500 stayed at the top of the line for what seemed like ever until the dual G4/500 came? *laugh* Then followed by the wimpy, but still very needed G4/733 "G4e" or 7450 w/ a superdrive. It's sort of like that now, but not quiet, we don't need a revolution like an entire overhaul on the processor and a superdrive-like upgrade to the optical, but we need something: just a good speed bump).

aswitcher
Feb 7, 2004, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by howtoplaydead
SNIP

It's sort of like that now, but not quiet, we don't need a revolution like an entire overhaul on the processor and a superdrive-like upgrade to the optical, but we need something: just a good speed bump).

Heres hoping. I hope Apple have something in hand now for the iMacs etc and are just making sure they get it right before releasing - like making sure stock is up for immediate release or is being delayed for full intergration with new software releases...

agreenster
Feb 7, 2004, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by army_guy
Ohh please, this is the kind of people who make me laugh. Advantages ohhh over xeon/opteron, what are you talking about? your making out like these are crap machines? The major 3d tools major platform is still x86. They have moved from unix to linux and windows. 3D Studio Max is still windows and also Softimage is still linux/windows. I should also mention that Mental Ray also scales better than render man, Until these major tools come to OSX the "serious users" will still use the current platform.


Who is using 3D Studio for feature film?? Umm, nobody. And I use Mental Ray all the time on my Mac....via Maya5.0. Thats a pretty major tool...but to say that Mental Ray is better than Renderman is just foolish.

Personally, I use macs and PC's for my 3D work, and a lot of studios are starting to switch more and more. (like I said already) They are taking Pixars lead. If you'd like to know who they are, just shoot me an email because I dont think posting other companies business on a public forum is so smart. Especially when you are working with said company...but anyway.

But "serious" film companies use maya and renderman, and other various linux tools, NOT 3DS or Softimage (tho they are growing). Its easy to switch from Linux to OSX, especially when you see the renderman benchmarks like the ones posted in my last post. It'll only get better from there. NO, x86 arent crap machines, but a native Unix environment, coupled with dependable, stable hardware that is getting faster and faster (thanks to IBM and the new compilers, and new chips around the corner), it looks like a good time to switch.

Blaaze
Feb 8, 2004, 02:58 AM
Originally posted by hokka
It's 56% to be precise :) [according to Page 32 of Pixar's 2003 financial report - http://www.shareholder.com/Common/Edgar/1002114/891618-03-1511/03-00.pdf ]

"Our Chief Executive Officer, Steve Jobs, beneficially owns approximately 56% of our outstanding Common Stock as of March 4, 2003.

It's why it's approximately 56%

army_guy
Feb 8, 2004, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by bernardb
You need a high end graphics card for interactive OpenGL display when actually modeling or setting up your animations. You have to be able to move around in a scene that may have millions of polygons without waiting 30 seconds for the screen to refresh. And actually in Maya5.0, there is a short list of graphics cards that support hardware rendering as opposed to software rendering or mental ray.

exactly, a 3d card is a requirment with large designs, but also display accuracy where it matters like MCAD, this is where the wildcat cards come in abit expensive but well worth it in the long run. Pity the 7210 doesnt fit (as well as the power requirments) awell the G5 vs the dremel ;)

then again if you want a real monster 3d card then is should do the trick.

http://www.sun.com/desktop/products/graphics/xvr4000/

army_guy
Feb 8, 2004, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by agreenster
Who is using 3D Studio for feature film?? Umm, nobody. And I use Mental Ray all the time on my Mac....via Maya5.0. Thats a pretty major tool...but to say that Mental Ray is better than Renderman is just foolish.

Personally, I use macs and PC's for my 3D work, and a lot of studios are starting to switch more and more. (like I said already) They are taking Pixars lead. If you'd like to know who they are, just shoot me an email because I dont think posting other companies business on a public forum is so smart. Especially when you are working with said company...but anyway.

But "serious" film companies use maya and renderman, and other various linux tools, NOT 3DS or Softimage (tho they are growing). Its easy to switch from Linux to OSX, especially when you see the renderman benchmarks like the ones posted in my last post. It'll only get better from there. NO, x86 arent crap machines, but a native Unix environment, coupled with dependable, stable hardware that is getting faster and faster (thanks to IBM and the new compilers, and new chips around the corner), it looks like a good time to switch.

i never said mental ray was better, i said it scale better with multiple machines. As for the IBM stuff being dependable, stable and getting faster, I would disagree the last power 4 machine (out of 3) which i dealt with a few weeks back was far from those. I couldnt load my tools, simulations were slowing down all over the place and it screwed up the license server, whether it was the hardware or IBM's version of UNIX who knows.

agreenster
Feb 8, 2004, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by army_guy
I couldnt load my tools, simulations were slowing down all over the place and it screwed up the license server, whether it was the hardware or IBM's version of UNIX who knows.

Which is exactly why there is the move towards the G5 (IBM's PPC 970) and OSX (Apple's version of Unix). It has already proven to be fast and dependable.

Hey, if its good enough for Pixar...

gotta luv the gcc complier.....

:D

TranceClubMusic
Feb 8, 2004, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by agreenster
Which is exactly why there is the move towards the G5 (IBM's PPC 970) and OSX (Apple's version of Unix). It has already proven to be fast and dependable.
Hey, if its good enough for Pixar...
gotta luv the gcc complier.....
:D


Its amazing how the entire movie "Finding Nemo" was all done on a G5 - thats pretty kool in my book. :cool:

Stike
Feb 8, 2004, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by TranceClubMusic
Its amazing how the entire movie "Finding Nemo" was all done on a G5 - thats pretty kool in my book. :cool:
Well, not really... as Finding Nemo was running in the theatres, nobody knew about the G5... Nemo: May 2003, G5 intro: June 2003 :p

TRiPod
Feb 8, 2004, 04:04 PM
lol ya nemo wasnt made with g5's.... maybe the incredibles though...

Trowaman
Feb 8, 2004, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by TRiPod
lol ya nemo wasnt made with g5's.... maybe the incredibles though...


mmm, these movies take years to make. Incredibles seems a bit soon. Cars: Maybe. Ratatoille: Almost positive it will be done via G5

army_guy
Feb 9, 2004, 07:14 AM
Originally posted by agreenster
Which is exactly why there is the move towards the G5 (IBM's PPC 970) and OSX (Apple's version of Unix). It has already proven to be fast and dependable.

Hey, if its good enough for Pixar...

gotta luv the gcc complier.....

:D

err iam afraid not, not for EDA applications it can never happen, if you wana enter this kind of market then you have to take on companies like SUN, IBM and INTEL. I doubt apple would considering pitting machines againt the SPARC and ITANIUM series not to mention the POWER. OSX doesnt even compare to an industry used OS such as Solaris/AIX/REDHAT ENTERPRISE AS/HPUNIX, other than the fancy graphics. I think you have a different idea of what dependable and stable is.

IMO OSX doesnt have the grunt and punch, it still needs alot of work and it is still a pure 32-bit OS. OSX is good but theres lots of room for improvement, Apple will get here but its gona take time.

Blark
Feb 9, 2004, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by army_guy
Ohh please, this is the kind of people who make me laugh. Advantages ohhh over xeon/opteron, what are you talking about? your making out like these are crap machines?

Did I say that? Nice straw man you're setting up there. I outlined what Apple's serious problems are in the 3D space: no pro graphics cards; no optimised compilers or apps; and processor speeds that make them only competitive with Intel/AMD, not superior. (Numerous benchmarks have shown that a single 2 Ghz G5 is approximately equal to a 2.8 Ghz Pentium 4 or Xeon; sometimes faster, sometimes slower). I was responding to the rumour that they were planning a big showing at SIGGRAPH, and speculating that this might mean these issues would be addressed.

A dual 3 Ghz would, based on extrapolation from existing benchmarks, be a significant improvement on current and near future processors from Intel and AMD in terms of scalar integer and FP, as well as system bandwidth (if Apple manages to pull off a 1.5 Ghz bus...).

The major 3d tools major platform is still x86. They have moved from unix to linux and windows. 3D Studio Max is still windows and also Softimage is still linux/windows. I should also mention that Mental Ray also scales better than render man, Until these major tools come to OSX the "serious users" will still use the current platform.

The 3D market is extremely heterogeneous. Yes, there has been a definitive shift over the last ten years from Workstation vendors and OSes (SGI, SUN etc.; IRIX, Solaris, etc.) to commodity hardware and OSes (Windows, and to a far lesser extent, Mac OS). Major vendors on the software side are support the Mac OS: Alias, Maxon, Luxology, Newtek, Discreet (Combustion), Mental Ray, etc. More than 25% of Alias's sales of Maya are now to Mac OS seats.

I thought the G5 was a great machine and still is however the performance is exagarated when you see an Opteron running 64-bit linux ripping through an Hspice simulation with a power 4 sitting beside it id think hard about what your saying.

I wish I had a G5; maybe on my next grant. My regard for the Mac as a visualization tool has at least as much to do with the Mac OS; our cell systems visualization work just works better on the Mac, due to its superior memory management (over Windows at least). Our last simulation runs would constantly stall and crash on our Xeons and Pentiums, but it was smooth sailing on our dual G4s.

As for renderfarms i havent been keeping up to date with the subject but from personal experience id stick with the SUN systems.

Yes, you haven't been keeping up. PIXAR, which used to use SUN, currently uses Xeons for their render farm. The UltraSparc is currently topped out at 1.28 Ghz.

err iam afraid not, not for EDA applications it can never happen, if you wana enter this kind of market then you have to take on companies like SUN, IBM and INTEL. I doubt apple would considering pitting machines againt the SPARC and ITANIUM series not to mention the POWER.

You are aware the the G5 (PPC 970) is a POWER 4 derivative, right?

OSX doesnt even compare to an industry used OS such as Solaris/AIX/REDHAT ENTERPRISE AS/HPUNIX, other than the fancy graphics. I think you have a different idea of what dependable and stable is. IMO OSX doesnt have the grunt and punch, it still needs alot of work and it is still a pure 32-bit OS. OSX is good but theres lots of room for improvement, Apple will get here but its gona take time.

Mac OS X definitely has a different focus than those enterprise-focused OSes (witness Mac OS X's industry leading low audio latency: obviously not a high-priority for Solaris, but essential for an OS geared toward content creation). But with its FreeBSD underpinnings, its stable enough. And those "fancy graphics" are part of a OS framework strategy that should pay big dividends in the future, especially for visualization work.

Blark

agreenster
Feb 9, 2004, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by TranceClubMusic
Its amazing how the entire movie "Finding Nemo" was all done on a G5 - thats pretty kool in my book. :cool:

Yeah, but too bad it WASNT. They were only demo-ing Renderman with frames from Finding Nemo last year Siggraph.

Chances are there the first feature that will be done completely on a G5 will be the film following "Cars" (November 2006)

agreenster
Feb 9, 2004, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by army_guy
err iam afraid not, not for EDA applications it can never happen, if you wana enter this kind of market then you have to take on companies like SUN, IBM and INTEL. I doubt apple would considering pitting machines againt the SPARC and ITANIUM series not to mention the POWER. OSX doesnt even compare to an industry used OS such as Solaris/AIX/REDHAT ENTERPRISE AS/HPUNIX, other than the fancy graphics. I think you have a different idea of what dependable and stable is.

IMO OSX doesnt have the grunt and punch, it still needs alot of work and it is still a pure 32-bit OS. OSX is good but theres lots of room for improvement, Apple will get here but its gona take time.

There's no point in going back and repeating Blarks post because he pretty much spells it out for you.

And why is it that you are having a hard time figuring out that the PPC 970 (G5) is a POWER series derivative? Also, why is it hard foryou to figure out that lots of studios are reporting faster rederman benchmarks with the G5 than newer top end Intel chips? As soon as 3ghz G5's debut, they will be the fastest rendering chip available for a competitive cost.

Look, I'm no Mac zealot. I just want something that works. But the stuff you are saying was true 2 years ago, not today.

Blark
Feb 9, 2004, 11:53 AM
...it still needs alot of work and it is still a pure 32-bit OS

I meant to respond to this as well... It would be ineteresting to hear what you think about OS X still needs work (really, I'd like to know...). I know of one glaring weakness: OpenGL drivers. The same OpenGL hardware on a mac as on a PC will still net you only 2/3 to one half the performance, generally speaking.

And that stuff about Mac OS X being "pure 32-bit": bunk. 10.3 is a hybrid: certainly not "pure 64-bit" but the math libraries have been optimized for native 64 bit integer and floating point routines of the 970, and the kernal can address more than 4 GB of RAM (it can currently address 16 GB, which is the current max capacity of the dual G5 machines, despite the consumer documentation indicating that they can only accomodate 8 GB). Current limitations in the user space engineering mean that individual threads can use no more than 4GB at a time, however.

Blark

army_guy
Feb 9, 2004, 01:30 PM
I know the 970 is a power 4 derivative, however when I was using the power 4 it wasnt all that, it wasnt the fastest machine, it wasnt as stable as it should of been. For an IBM machine costing so much I was appauled as I have had better from them and no it wasnt a dodgy machine or a OS issue.

As for Intel I dont think thier going anywhere, the Itanium 2 is a waste of time and money and should be scraped and redesigned from the begining. Here we also have a 64-bit Pentium 4 anytime this year.

As for the 64-bit issue, IMO the OS needs to be pure 64-bit to be called a 64-bit OS. I agree that it maybe OK now but what about when you need 4GB+ for a thread. Wouldnt a 4GB 3d scene using Maya work?

For the 16GB issue, 2GB are out allready whether they work on the G5 is another problem as the high density DIMM have alot of capacitance and maynot actually work stabally. Looking on CRUCIAL's site shows that the 2GB DIMMS ARE NOT on the list. Mind you these are ECC Reg and work fine on my TYAN Opteron Board, the G5 will need unbuffered as I remember.

army_guy
Feb 9, 2004, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Blark



Yes, you haven't been keeping up. PIXAR, which used to use SUN, currently uses Xeons for their render farm. The UltraSparc is currently topped out at 1.28 Ghz.

Blark

Yes at 1.28GHz, for render farms you would need to consider the fire series, in terms of cost the SUN machines do lose out but they are an investment and allways get the job done and are dependable. In this day and age they are probably overkill and too expensive for things like DCC but dont forget its the SUN fire machines (nvidia and ati use the 12K/15K machines) that simulate the CPUS/CHIPSETS/GPU's that you people use and make all this possible.