T minus 12 hours Until My DP2.5 is canceled

[slughead]

I figured I'd make a thread of this since so many are pissed about the 20 day setback for these machines (DP2.5 G5).

Basically I have to turn down a contract if I don't get this thing this week it's ESSENTIAL to the work I have to do. If I turn down the contract, I can't afford the computer. So they've forced me to cancel. I've given Apple another 10 days to ship it, and they've yet to come through.

I heard some G5s are shipping today, if mine's not one of them I'll call up and cancel.

Yeah yeah, I should've ordered the 2.0 well it's too late now.

I figure if that PC switcher guy can post here, I can since I'm genuinely pissed and saddened about what I have to do.

I wanted to post this to let people know that this last minute delay HURT some people. I might have been able to negotiate a later deadline for the contract if they'd just informed me a week earlier. Instead, they waited 12 hours until the day it was supposed to ship to inform me that it'd be delayed almost 3 weeks.

A lot of you will think this is a "troll" post. Well, without people like me, you're NEVER going to see an end to this BS. Complain all you want, if you don't cancel your orders when they screw up, they'll never change.

This is not acceptable behavior for a company, and there's a petition going around to make it stop (could someone post a link to it pls?).

[SolidGun]

You are right....businesses that provide inadequate services should not be dealt with. I am sorry about the loss of your contract. Hopefully things will work out for you.
I wonder what is with all the delays at Apple. This is happening to a lot of orders.

[MikeLaRiviere]

What kind of work do you need to do that requires dual 2.5s?

Mike LaRiviere

[edesignuk]

It's not acceptable, I completely agree. A company as large as Apple should bloody well get their act together.

[recursivejon]

I know how you feel, my G5 was originally supposed to ship back on 7/30 at the latest. I need it for a school project that requires 3D graphics, so I'm still stuck on my Pismo for whatever work i can do until 8/23.

I'd suggest making them send you a 2.0 and then allowing you to exchange it for a 2.5 when theyre shipping in volume.

Good luck

[benpatient]

i believe the most applicable phrases are "form over function" and "dual 3Ghz by summer 2004...promise"

[Kwyjibo]

There are aq few issues at hand. Yes apple should hold itself to higher standards, but it never will so you should give up that dream. There is also an INHERENT RISK in ordering new technology. You risk that delays will happen, or that when you get it being the first off the line may have more problems ... but of course since you spent your money these risks don't apply.

Cancelling one or two orders isn't going to change anything, how long did people wait for ipod minis? how long are they still waiting? Apple KNOWS what it can get away with ... even the BigMac Cluster was waiting on those xserves even after they sold off the original cluster. Sadly this is how apple does business and its how they've done business for a long time. History will always repeat itself and you not doing research before buying this machine is partly your own fault. I mean apple consistently delays the amount of time it takes to ship a machine, go back and read about the original 17" pb's, or the original Dual 2.0's ... they always do it , and probably always will. If your really that angry cancel your order I guess, but I won't be pissed off with you because of the inherent risks and history involved.

[tdhurst]

I completely understand you anger over the shipping delay, but....why would you make promises you don't know you can keep? If you're contract requires a 2.5G5, and you don't have one, why would you agree to get it done? On another note, would having a 2.0 really be that bad?

[invaLPsion]

I agree with this guy 100%. Apple needs to have better communication with its customers about ship dates. Some people actually need these computers for their jobs... :mad:

[jcook793]

Yeah, I hate to kick a guy when he's down, but I agree with some of the posters. How can you bank a contract on a piece of hardware that has never been shipped? You can't do business on the bleeding edge like that.

[jsw]

I agree that it's risky to base a business decision on something that hasn't shipped yet.

However, Apple is in the wrong here. Missed shipping dates are rampant. It's not like they've blown one or two. It seems like 50% of the products they offer ship late, or in tiny quantities, etc. They want businesses to buy their equipment, but they cannot deliver it on time, and businesses won't stand for it. The "pro" and server lines are the worst - and they should be the best. If you set a ship date, you should be able to stick to it the vast majority of the time. Occasional setbacks are understood. But Apple pre-announces virtually everything.

[belair]

Well he is certainly making buisness on the edge and it is also true that apple has done this before and people should know by now that they ARE unreliable.

For me this is a breach of contract for apple.
They are out of their league if they want to promote great computers three to four months in advance and then don't deliver.

Apple should get their communication and their enormous EGO right!
Period.

[tdhurst]

I agree with this guy 100%. Apple needs to have better communication with its customers about ship dates. Some people actually need these computers for their jobs... :mad:

Wait, what did you do before these computers were announced? Did the job get created after dual2.5G5s existed?

I understand the frustration, but am appalled at the poor planning by people. If you don't have the equipment or materials in possession, don't promise to get the job done...

PS...Apple NEEDS to get their act together. Just cuz they make a superior product does not mean they can ignore all the little things (okay, big) like shipping ON TIME every once in a while.

[James L]

I figured I'd make a thread of this since so many are pissed about the 20 day setback for these machines (DP2.5 G5).

Basically I have to turn down a contract if I don't get this thing this week it's ESSENTIAL to the work I have to do. If I turn down the contract, I can't afford the computer. So they've forced me to cancel. I've given Apple another 10 days to ship it, and they've yet to come through.

I heard some G5s are shipping today, if mine's not one of them I'll call up and cancel.

Yeah yeah, I should've ordered the 2.0 well it's too late now.

I figure if that PC switcher guy can post here, I can since I'm genuinely pissed and saddened about what I have to do.

I wanted to post this to let people know that this last minute delay HURT some people. I might have been able to negotiate a later deadline for the contract if they'd just informed me a week earlier. Instead, they waited 12 hours until the day it was supposed to ship to inform me that it'd be delayed almost 3 weeks.

A lot of you will think this is a "troll" post. Well, without people like me, you're NEVER going to see an end to this BS. Complain all you want, if you don't cancel your orders when they screw up, they'll never change.

This is not acceptable behavior for a company, and there's a petition going around to make it stop (could someone post a link to it pls?).


I don't think this is a troll post, though I must say that I agree with the people who state it doesn't make for good business to base business decisions on something you don't even have.

More importantly though is your comment "Well, without people like me, you're NEVER going to see an end to this BS". I agree with you, but posting it here isn't going to do a damn thing. I sincerely hope you sent this to Apple feedback, yelled all the way up the food chain with customer service, etc. Nothing anyone posts on a forum is going to do a thing (but it is nice to vent I understand).

For people who think this won't work, it has for me in the past. I have had exchanges on machines that I have purchased that they should not have done... i.e., the machine was within specs but it wasn't perfect. They exchanged it, no restocking fees, no new shipping fees, etc.

I guess I am saying that if you are posting this here to vent your frustrations fine. If you are posting it here to "make a change" then it is pretty much useless.

Cheers!

[revenuee]

I wish Nikon would speed up it's D70 shipping dates -- they gave me a very vague time estimate of 1 - 2 months ... LOL

[LeeTom]

Even though Apple is being lame here, you are ultimately to blame for the loss of business. You knew that Apple has had these problems before, and you went for the cutting edge anyway. I'm positive you DON'T NEED a dual 2.5GHz machine to do whatever work it is you need to do. You could waltz into an Apple Store right now and pick up a Dual 2.0 or 1.8, and bring it back and get your work done just fine.

Lee Tom

[Jo-Kun]

well when I ordered my 2x1.8Ghz... I was lucky in one way that it only took 2weeks shipping, but since my Powerbook got stolen 1 week before I ordered it... I had no computer but still jobs to deliver... they took me longer than it would have been with my G5... but I used a friends iBook instead to help me out of trouble... long hours... lot of cursing (using 700MB files in Photoshop on a machine that has only 640mb ram... its allmost suicide... it allso was on my Pb before...) but I worked nights and my clients got what they needed and two weeks later I got my G5 wich is running sooo well... my clients were satisfied... and even tough my G5 wasn't here I did deliver the images... so stop whining... look for a solution instead... wich might mean: ask friends who have mac's to help you out for a start... long nights and a lost of cursing... but you will be able to do the contract... and when the G5 arrives... you would be able to do it even faster...

I used to do all of what I do now on a Pb G4 400 with 1GB ram... a lot slower but it worked... ok my latest scans were 1,2GB in size... I think I would have chocked my Pb on that one... the 700Mb scans took allready 30min on the Pb and 3min on my G5... and its all about diskwritingspeed since the scansoftware doesn't use a lot of ram... opening the file in Photoshop was a different story, lots of waiting again on the Pb... :p

[Duff-Man]

Duff-Man says....I see both sides of the issue....I understand the frustration - heck, I am waiting for a 2.5 myself - but it is wrong to base contracts on a computer that was not shipping at the time. I would not promise anything to anybody based on an "estimated shipping date" be it from Apple or any other company. And to the person (not the original poster) that cries "breach of contract" that is a bit extreme....as I said, Apple gave an "estimated" shipping date - not some iron-clad promise.....oh yeah!

[wdlove]

I'm sorry to hear about the difficulty that you are having. Like others it's just smart to not sign a contract on something that you don't have. This sort of shipping problem seems to be part of the history of Apple. I just wish that they would come out and tell us exactly what is the real problem.

I hope that everything will work out for the best. ;)

[U2Rules!]

I'm a teacher, and our school district has mandated that we stop using Mac's for this reason. Apple has left us hanging one time too many with late shipments and now we've signed a 5 year deal with Dell. Not filling orders in a timely manner is costing Apple more and more.....

[edesignuk]

I'm a teacher, and our school district has mandated that we stop using Mac's for this reason. Apple has left us hanging one time too many with late shipments and now we've signed a 5 year deal with Dell. Not filling orders in a timely manner is costing Apple more and more.....I'm actually glad to hear that. It's the larger cancellations like this that may be able to make an impact with Apple.

[slughead]

I didn't "bank" on getting the computer, I just needed it for the work. I can end the contract any time before midnight on Thursday.

True, I did put some of my reputation on the line, but at least I'm not going to be held legally liable :X. I also bought a SATA raptor that I don't know what to do with.

So I cancel the order tonight, cancel the contract tomorrow (which will probably take all day).

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to discuss what I'm doing specifically (especially since they haven't told me everything yet), but I'll say that it requires lots of computing power, part of the payment for the contract is the computer, and I have to give them my hard drive when I finish. They've also told me it's about 500 hours of work, and I wont have enough time to do it if I start any later than next week.

Apple still has 8 hours to tell me it's shipping, but had they shipped it on time (or told me in a timely fashion) it would've saved me a LOT of trouble.

BTW thanks for all the support guys. I've since realized it was a bad idea to sign this thing and bank on Apple when they were having problems. I was just so excited that I could FINALLY have some work that I jumped on the contract immediately without thinking. Taking risks is a part of life, I just made a mistake is all.

[daxdagr8t]

You guys are not alone, even apple employees are frustrated with apple.Last time I went to the apple store at Costa Mesa some of them were discussing strategies to what to tell customers about when the dual 2.5 will arrive.They were supposed to arrive together with the new displays.I havnt been to the apple store lately and I dont know if they have it in stock.

[edesignuk]

http://upload.yo-momma.net/uploads/forums/apple_logistics_monkeys.jpg

[friarbayliff]

ha ha, that's great edesignuk.

But yeah, when is Apple going to get over these supply woes?

[iGav]

Why on earth did you agree to take on a contract which requires a machine
that you haven't got?? :confused: Not only risky, but also unprofessional.

So have I got this right??

IBM lets Apple down
Apple lets you down
You let your client down

Poor client...

Why don't you just hire a G5 until the 2.5 ships??

[jsw]

I didn't "bank" on getting the computer, I just needed it for the work. I can end the contract any time before midnight on Thursday.
So you didn't really risk anything. You made a decision to attempt to get a contract, but you have the option of not taking it if you don't get the system in time. In the end, I don't see that you took a risk, aside maybe from the Raptor drive. You saw an opportunity and attempted to make the best of it.

It sucks that Apple failed you, but I don't agree with others saying that you were mistaken to try for the contract.

Any way you could just go buy a dual-2.0 tonight? Is it that much slower?

[RedLead]

you set yourself up for the disappointment, pony boy. look at apple's track record in delaying almost every new product they ever announce. why does this surprise you? it is frustrating when shipment dates get pushed back as you anxiously await your new toy to arrive. but, come on, what makes you so special that you need to make such a big stink about not getting your new power mac. whoop-dee-doo, i feel bad for you! why on earth do you need that much power? and why would you commit to a project you don't even have the equipment for? get real.

pb

[2A Batterie]

Pizza is my favorite food. If I'm entertaining guests (ie a Football game) I'll tell them "Hey come on over to watch the game... I got pizza on the way!". Normally the pizza place will "estimate" my delivery time at 30 minutes. If it's 45, it's no big sweat. Longer than an hour and I'm pissed. I'm sure my guests would wonder what's going on too, perhaps I did the ol' bait n' switch but promising them pizza, only to have a veggie tray out. Anyways, if my pizza doesn't come I just go get some McDonald's and never order from that pizza place again. I'm sure if that pizza place constantly neglected delivery times, it would go out of business.

In a nutshell: I agree with you dude. It's not cool to grossly underestimate delivery times with something so important. It's ever worse to disrespect customers by keeping them in the dark.

[slughead]

So you didn't really risk anything. You made a decision to attempt to get a contract, but you have the option of not taking it if you don't get the system in time. In the end, I don't see that you took a risk, aside maybe from the Raptor drive. You saw an opportunity and attempted to make the best of it.

Well my reputation has been damaged, I might not get work from this organization again, and I certainly can't use them as a reference. I'm about where I started, aside from a little embarassed, my schedule is unusally empty, and I'm very dissapointed.

On the other hand, this'll give me time to catch up on my shareware development.

Any way you could just go buy a dual-2.0 tonight? Is it that much slower?

Long story short, I can't do that (I certainly would if I could though).

[jsw]

Well my reputation has been damaged, I might not get work from this organization again, and I certainly can't use them as a reference. I'm about where I started, aside from a little embarassed, my schedule is unusally empty, and I'm very dissapointed.

On the other hand, this'll give me time to catch up on my shareware development.
Sorry to hear that. Maybe I'll buy some shareware from you - what do you make?

[Applespider]

Before you just cancel the contract though isn't it worthwhile getting in touch with the company and explaining the situation to them?

They might be able to push the deadline back by a week or so (who knows) - just because finding someone else with the capability and time to carry out the job might put it back even later. If it's that complex a task, is there not some preparatory work that you could do on another system and then let your G5 crunch later?

Even if you do have to cancel, if you explain at least they'll know that it's thanks to circumstances outside your control rather than you deciding that you want to sit in the sunshine with twiddling your thumbs. And your obvious anger and disappointment may help keep your reputation and details on file.

[LeeTom]

Why don't you change your order to a 2.0?

Lee Tom

[slughead]

Before you just cancel the contract though isn't it worthwhile getting in touch with the company and explaining the situation to them?

It's funny you should mention that :D

UPDATE:

I just called them up to see the procedure to cancel and they told me to come to a meeting tomorrow to re-negotiate!

Unfortunately this means I can no longer talk about it here (pending negotiations and whatnot), but thanks to everyone for your support!

[Duff-Man]

I just called them up to see the procedure to cancel and they told me to come to a meeting tomorrow to re-negotiate!Duff-Man says...I hope it goes well for you, and you get the contract and can hang in there just a little longer for that 2.5....oh yeah!

[slughead]

Sorry to hear that. Maybe I'll buy some shareware from you - what do you make?

Nothing out yet of any significance.

I've almost finished a web interface to program your miglia TV card over the internet (and download the files). I'm working with the Miglia people to get this finished (the last part is buggy, and I know it's not on my end :X). This should also work with other TV input cards eventually.

I'm also about halfway done with some new PHP forum software. It's got some interesting features in it ;)

I usually write programs in the language in which I'm using at the time I find something to write.

I'll probably be using a lot of Java soon, so who knows what the hell I'll create.

[ozone]

[Sorry for the long exposition below.] I agree with slug head on this matter. Some of you know I have been waiting for my 17" PB (which has been out for 3 months now) for 19 days. I find out today that it has AGAIN been delayed for yet another week.

It is very true that Apple does not guarantee delivery or shipment times. However, to state that is is "irresponsible" to do business based on estimated values is incorrect. Most things in the world work on the premise that things or processes will occur when expected or promised: you have to plan as well as you can and allow for SOME leeway. You expect the pizza to be delivered at a certain time (great example by a previous poster), you expect the bus to show up, you expect your coworkers to show up, etc. In slug head's case, it looks like he exercised due diligence: he knew that the item would not be delivered right away but figured with the estimate that it should be acceptable. Although Apple has legal clauses limiting its liability, there is the legal and ethical concept of "reasonable" behaviour and performance.

The argument of "you should have known that in the first place" that Apple is always late in delivery is invalid. Perpetual poor performance in a professional setting gets you terminated, disciplined, legal action, or drastic losses. In construction, for example, a builder on a major project is held to its bid completion date and within the contract is a clause that fines the contractor for every day it is late in completion: this can range from thousands to tens of thousands of dollars PER DAY if not more.

Futhermore, there is no standardized lateness: how can one possibly predict exactly how late a product will be and then build that into estimations, especially if you are bidding on contracts or proposals?

And lastly, on a reputational side, what does that say about a company if the so called reason is, "Oh, they're always late." How many times have we in our personal or professional lives commented on somebody and stated that he/she is the way they are - do we really accept that as an excuse? No. We either live with it or walk away - the behaviour is never justified however.

Of course, life happens and there are problems and sometimes that's just the way it is. And maybe we could live with this inevitability, but what is not acceptable is the consistent pushing back of delivery times. Like slughead, if I had known that my order would have been delayed by 3 weeks, I would not have placed the order. Apple exacerbates the problem by its time lagged notices. If Apple knows it is going to be late by X days, and we are notified ahead of time, well then fine: we take the risk if we still go ahead. But to be notified of a FURTHER delay JUST AS the expected date comes up robs us of the ability for us to take corrective action for whatever we have to do (as in slug head's case). We no longer have the option of planning that extra contingency. People get mad when things are late, but they get even more mad when they have no more choice.

I am not surprised at the teacher's post in which the contract with Apple was cancelled, and Apple is not doing itself any favours in this regard. I am in a position to influence the purchasing patterns of several people and have made recommendations to others about computer purchases: as a result of what I have demonstrated, others have made bulk purchases. My future recommendations about Apple purchases will not be positive.

And for me, well, I have to decide whether I still want my PB order...

[mikeyredk]

http://upload.yo-momma.net/uploads/forums/apple_logistics_monkeys.jpg

Hey i want a job in their logistics department :D

Supply Chain & Information System @ penn state university

[Sun Baked]

This comes down to, if you need it now -- walk down to the store and buy what is on the shelf.

Otherwise, you're waiting for a rumored machine or announced machine to show up -- which never seems to happen on time.

Though the PowerBook 12 & 17 actually showed up early, but that happens quite rarely.

Sometimes waiting isn't worth the cost of the faster/future machine when productivity today depends on placing the machine on the desk now.

---

But alas there are times when a product is in demand (or the company cannot meet demand), like the iPod mini, New Beetle, PT Cruiser, that you are place in the que and delivery is sometime in the future -- or pay through the ass to jump forward an buy from somebody willing to gouge you quite happily.

[iNetwork]

What kind of work do you need to do that requires dual 2.5s?

Mike LaRiviere
This topic has absolutely nothing to do with what he needs a dual 2.5 for and more about Apple's problem. Last I checked, we're a free market economy and he can buy whatever he wants. As can all Apple Computer users.

If Apple loses customers because of BS like this, then they'll fix the problem. Unless they receive NEGATIVE reinforcement, just like a child, their actions will not change. Apple needs to see a drop in profits and sales. This is the orig. poster's comment. Don't thread crap, it annoys me. :p

Also, he is not a bad business person--Apple IS. Apple should not "release" a product and be willing to take your money for said product, give you a ship date for said product and then NOT deliver. Again, the orig poster was going by what his supplier told him was a ship date and he could fulfill his order to his client. If you always have everything on hand, then you have way too much overhead. I beleive he was running his own JIT ordering through Apple, and logistically he was doing the right thing. You know what I do to suppliers who do not deliver, I drop them. As many of us should drop Apple. At least Dell can ship products on time.

This was not a rumored product, it was a released product with a ship date in the very near future. What Apple needs to do in situations like this is Pre-Order instead of taking normal orders for "released but not available" items.

[Bhennies]

you set yourself up for the disappointment, pony boy. look at apple's track record in delaying almost every new product they ever announce. why does this surprise you? it is frustrating when shipment dates get pushed back as you anxiously await your new toy to arrive. but, come on, what makes you so special that you need to make such a big stink about not getting your new power mac. whoop-dee-doo, i feel bad for you! why on earth do you need that much power? and why would you commit to a project you don't even have the equipment for? get real.

pbjesus man, why are so many people acting like such children?

And what the hell is this stupid comment I keep hearing about "why on earth do you need so much power". I can think of plenty of professions where if apple announced dual 5.0 ghz g5's tommorrow, they'd still eventually want something faster. Until video rendering can be done instantly, or Pro TOols can run with every effect send, bus and insert filled, there will be a need for faster computers.

[Elan0204]

I too have sympathy for you slughead, although it is good to hear about the possible renegotiation of your contract. Perhaps the new contract will allow you enough time to cancel your dual 2.5 order and replace it with a dual 2.0.

[Duff-Man]

Apple should not "release" a product and be willing to take your money for said product, give you a ship date for said product and then NOT deliver.Duff-Man says...once again....I sympathize with him - see my comments earlier in this thread....but he was given an *estimated* shipping date - not a promise...and he has not given Apple one penny. Apple does not charge you until they ship your order, and you can cancel anytime without any penalty. I agree that there is a real problem with apple not getting things out the door promptly...but let's at least keep the facts straight....oh yeah!

[BrianKonarsMac]

it's not about apple's track record for delaying products, but announcing them before they have a steady supply chain in place and taking orders for products that aren't even ready. if apple waited until the 2.5 was actually ready to ship though, it would have been well over a year between revisions, which would have crushed their stock (i would have loved that). apple needs to stop announcing products that they can't provide, and wait until they are able to meet demand with supply.

[MrSugar]

You know what I would do? Cancel the order, go to amazon or another reliable dealer that has stock (if no apple store is close enough to drive to) buy a G5 2.0 overnight and cancel your 2.5. It allows you to finish your work and is a great machine, then if you still have qualms about it you can sell it and pick up a 2.5 later... or better yet enjoy the 2.0 and get a new G5 in a year or more. Every problem has a solution, shipping dates are never a garuntee, esspecially with apple.

Apple needs to work on this, but in the end it is your fault for using a questionable solution. You can't promise to do work if you don't have the tools to do it, esspecially if you aren't sure when they will show up.

[Timelessblur]

Duff-Man says...once again....I sympathize with him - see my comments earlier in this thread....but he was given an *estimated* shipping date - not a promise...and he has not given Apple one penny. Apple does not charge you until they ship your order, and you can cancel anytime without any penalty. I agree that there is a real problem with apple not getting things out the door promptly...but let's at least keep the facts straight....oh yeah!

Well I would call an estimated with a company should be good with in a day or 2. Since it was at a week I give them 2 day of being off. Unless the contacted me with in 48 hour telling me that there is a supple problem. Apple as they guy posted failed at both of these.

Lets face the facts Apple does not give a damn. They have to many fan boy will to pay let them get away with it say oh it ok. This same fan boyr are willing to pay apple 20+% proffect margen on the product.

I think apple needs to get there act in order and not release products that they dont have in stock ready to ship. From the looks of things they had almost none when they release the 2.5gHz g5. It was perrly a PR thing and them trying to look good. In reallty they had Jack none and they knew it. Now imagen if some compainly like dell pulled a stunt like that. Dell does not have these fan boys. Dell would get loose a lot of money and people would leave. If I do buniness with some one I expet there estments to be within a resable amount of time. They can get in earily but they should not be alowed to go to much past it. When a compain is over by more than a few days I get pissed and prouble will not deal with them again. by the time they hit a week over I am general am debating about canceling the orginder. 2 weeks that order will be canceled. Unless I am contact with in 24-48 hours of my orginal order telling me of shiping delays and what I want to do about it. General I will say ok ship it when you get it in and I not pissed at the compainy they did not fail me. I give them the benfit of the doute. Apple fail to contact him.

I learned to look at what apple says and take it down about 10 levels to account for all the marketing BS and over inflated BS as the 2.5 g5 show. It was complete BS they did not have them and they knew it when they released it. They where banking on fan boys not caring.

Dell does one thing write. They can get there products out in on time and in a extremly timely method and they tell you when it will be at your house. not when they are going to ship it

[angelneo]

Well I would call an estimated with a company should be good with in a day or 2. Since it was at a week I give them 2 day of being off. Unless the contacted me with in 48 hour telling me that there is a supple problem. Apple as they guy posted failed at both of these.

Lets face the facts Apple does not give a damn. They have to many fan boy will to pay let them get away with it say oh it ok. This same fan boyr are willing to pay apple 20+% proffect margen on the product.

I think apple needs to get there act in order and not release products that they dont have in stock ready to ship. From the looks of things they had almost none when they release the 2.5gHz g5. It was perrly a PR thing and them trying to look good. In reallty they had Jack none and they knew it. Now imagen if some compainly like dell pulled a stunt like that. Dell does not have these fan boys. Dell would get loose a lot of money and people would leave. If I do buniness with some one I expet there estments to be within a resable amount of time. They can get in earily but they should not be alowed to go to much past it. When a compain is over by more than a few days I get pissed and prouble will not deal with them again. by the time they hit a week over I am general am debating about canceling the orginder. 2 weeks that order will be canceled. Unless I am contact with in 24-48 hours of my orginal order telling me of shiping delays and what I want to do about it. General I will say ok ship it when you get it in and I not pissed at the compainy they did not fail me. I give them the benfit of the doute. Apple fail to contact him.

I learned to look at what apple says and take it down about 10 levels to account for all the marketing BS and over inflated BS as the 2.5 g5 show. It was complete BS they did not have them and they knew it when they released it. They where banking on fan boys not caring.

Dell does one thing write. They can get there products out in on time and in a extremly timely method and they tell you when it will be at your house. not when they are going to ship it

I have a hard time trying to read this... Where are you from? Timelessblur

[Squire]

Slughead,

Good luck with the contract. I hope you get it all worked out.

As for Apple's shipping times, it seems like they're a habitual problem rather than a few isolated instances. That makes me wonder how accurate the original shipping estimates are. When you place an order for a recently announced but not-yet-shipping product, are they basically lying with the original ship dates to get you hooked? Or are they that delusional that they think there's a possibility of getting the machines out the door in time?

I don't know, it just seems like unacceptable behavior in this day and age for a respected global corporation.

Squire

[jemeinc]

you set yourself up for the disappointment, pony boy. look at apple's track record in delaying almost every new product they ever announce. why does this surprise you? it is frustrating when shipment dates get pushed back as you anxiously await your new toy to arrive. but, come on, what makes you so special that you need to make such a big stink about not getting your new power mac. whoop-dee-doo, i feel bad for you! why on earth do you need that much power? and why would you commit to a project you don't even have the equipment for? get real.

pb

Trap up newbie... Sorry to be so harsh, but I see more & more posts with this type of attitude these days & it's a shame... It's one thing when it's a couple of regs going back & forth, but when someones first post on the forum is an obnoxious attack on a fellow community member w/ a legitimate gripe I get a little agitated...

[Lancetx]

I still don't understand what kind of project could possibly require a Dual 2.5 that could not be done on a Dual 2.0. :rolleyes: I have a close friend that is patiently waiting on her Dual 2.5, but she continues to get her graphics design work done everyday on her 2 1/2 year old Quicksilver Power Mac G4 933 too. While the delays are annoying, they certainly aren't keeping people from getting their essential work done.

[Squire]

I still don't understand what kind of project could possibly require a Dual 2.5 that could not be done on a Dual 2.0. :rolleyes: I have a close friend that is patiently waiting on her Dual 2.5, but she continues to get her graphics design work done everyday on her 2 1/2 year old Quicksilver Power Mac G4 933 too. While the delays are annoying, they certainly aren't keeping people from getting their essential work done.

I guess a lot of people are curious about that. Slughead's response to that earlier was:

Long story short, I can't do that (I certainly would if I could though).

There must be a reason.

Squire

[slughead]

Originally Posted by Lancetx
I still don't understand what kind of project could possibly require a Dual 2.5 that could not be done on a Dual 2.0.

The reason is not that I couldn't make due with a 2.0, it's that I couldn't change the order do to technical reasons. Businesses don't want to have things change up on a dime anyway, and with the powermac being a workstation, its aim is mostly at people in business.

Besides, Apple told me a mere 12 hours before the day it was supposed to ship, even if I was able to change my order to a Dual 2.0, would I have gotten it any faster?

ozone (who posted in this thread), talks how he's been waiting 19 days for his 17" powerbook to ship (a product that's been out a long time).

Small businesses and private citizens can see problems instantly and change plans immediately, however larger organizations aren't able to do this--they need time to adjust to situations. Say what you will about Microsoft, at least when they say something's shipping, they mean it. On one shipment of xboxes, they even took a heavy loss using couriers to get them to a rural best buy on time.

What my company was ordering 30 G5s? Could I just *change* plans and go to my local apple store and buy the 30 of the lower end models? I'd have to drive to both Apple stores in Arizona, as well as a few best buys and both Fry's electronics stores. That's not the way business works. You can't force someone to change their whole supply structure just because you didn't *feel* like telling them in a timely manner.

Delays are one thing, but delaying at the last minute is something completely different.

It's like that pizza analogy, *estimated* shipping time might be 30 minutes, but if it takes 2 hours you still have the right to be pissed off. Imagine if it was delayed nearly 3 weeks?

Good luck with the contract. I hope you get it all worked out.

Thanks! :)

As for Apple's shipping times, it seems like they're a habitual problem rather than a few isolated instances. That makes me wonder how accurate the original shipping estimates are. When you place an order for a recently announce but not-yet-shipping product, are they basically lying with the original ship dates to get you hooked? Or are they that delusional that they think there's a possibility of getting the machines out the door in time?

I think it's a mixture of both. Think about it: who knows about Apple's supply problems more than apple does?? why don't they put their estimated times 1 month ahead, since they know it'll probably be delayed that long. They don't do it because shareholders HATE that crap.

I think the main supply problem is, ever since they've outsourced so much of their stuff, they've been having supply chain problems that they don't want to make public. Perhaps the assembly plants are the same places where they assemble Compaqs or Dells, and they don't want quality problems with Dells to be looked at as a problem with Apple as well.

Rumors of possible delays take so long to travel to the PR department, maybe we're hearing about them the same time parts of Apple are hearing about them.

They need more Americans on the ground over there, but alas, that would cost too much :X

This is the way pretty much all hardware is moving. Dell wants an Mp3 player so they ask some Taiwanese plant to stamp them out with Dell Labels on them. It's amazing how much Dell really DOESN'T do. At least Apple makes software :X.

[edit: ignore the grammatical mistakes, it's been a long day and it's only lunch time]

[wdlove]

I also wish you well with your meeting today. Hopefully you can re-negotiate the contract and still get the 2.5 G5. I'm looking forward to the results of your meeting. I will be thinking about you.

[FuzzyBallz]

I love the benefit of having early shipments of Macs at the school computer store. Personally, I for one will never buy or wait for shipment of a product. It's either shipped within 24hrs, or I'll get it from the retail store. With that said, Dell has Apple beat hands down on the "order > build > ship" dept.

[Timelessblur]

Basicly from you last post and how it becoming more and more clear that apple pretty much lies on it shiping estmates. They do it so there stock looks good and more people will buy there stock. If they told the truth it would case there stock to fall. I think apple is pulling an Enron here.

They can only keep the BS up for so long and by the looks of things it starting to fall apart. You figure they would of learned from there mistake long ago with the orginal macs and there lieing back then but Guess not. They are doing it again.

[slughead]

UPDATE 2:

Just got the call, they agreed to my terms of bending over and taking up the botox in exchange for moving back the contract. Less work and a pay cut, but hourly I'm now making more :confused: ..

I would say "thank you for doing a bad job, Apple" but I'm still out of work for another couple weeks thanks to them.

At least it gave me some time for some meaningful self-exploration in the spirit of our deity, Steve P Jobs......

*throws something* What kind of an asshole makes billions of dollars a year wearing blue jeans to work!! If I ever meet that guy I'm gonna kick him sqa' in the nuts!!!

[edesignuk]

[SIZE=4]*throws something* What kind of an asshole makes billions of dollars a year wearing blue jeans to work!! If I ever meet that guy I'm gonna kick him sqa' in the nuts!!!This made me laugh, Thanku :)

[slughead]

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=994960&postcount=3086

ugh

Well I'm canceled, what a monumental pile of crap. FU Apple.

[wdlove]

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=994960&postcount=3086

ugh

Well I'm canceled, what a monumental pile of crap. FU Apple.

It make me very sad to hear that you have decided to cancel. What type of Mac will you be getting? It seemed that by the letter your received, Apple was trying very hard to accommodate.

[LeonPro]

slughead, pardon the people who don't know how real businesses work. A lot of businesses work on verbal agreements and deadlines. We place orders on the edge of receiving the payment the day before. That's how it really works. Heck, take a look at how the stock market operates - lots of last minute orders and cancellations.

People who sit at the convencience of their homes or do a 9 to 5 job for an employer will NEVER understand this.

I personally know how this operates because I've been there before going back to take my Masters. You take an order and get the materials that you need to fulfill that order. You know where those materials are and you bank of the company's delivery date of those materials, then you make your decision.

Yes it is a risk, but a risk that businesses are willing to play and pay for. slughead played that risk and he did get what the consequences were. It would be nice to see Apple operate as a professional business and to know when to disclose to their customers if they cannot make a deadline. That way, people who depend on their company can make better decisions and a healthier relationship.

As for the rest who can't understand this or why the hell he would need a G5, you will never get it until you are in the same position.

I have a G5 2.5, myself, which I have been using for FCP4HD and AE6.5 and I thought this would be enough. It's never enough. You do more and you ask for more. But then again, you guys will never understand.

[slughead]

It make me very sad to hear that you have decided to cancel. What type of Mac will you be getting? It seemed that by the letter your received, Apple was trying very hard to accommodate.

I probably wont be buying for at least another 6 months.

I'll talk to my employers tomorrow and see if I can't convince them to get it in town, the likely-hood is incredibly low.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice.. can't get fooled again!

[Sun Baked]

Yes it is a risk, but a risk that businesses are willing to play and pay for. slughead played that risk and he did get what the consequences were. It would be nice to see Apple operate as a professional business and to know when to disclose to their customers if they cannot make a deadline. That way, people who depend on their company can make better decisions and a healthier relationship.Apple does have to play by the FTC rules, so they don't have a free lunch with their shipment dates.

As you said it is a professional business and the FTC will make them follow the rules, and allow people to cancel if they don't get the product whithin a reasonable time of the original estimated ship date.

[wdlove]

I probably wont be buying for at least another 6 months.

I'll talk to my employers tomorrow and see if I can't convince them to get it in town, the likely-hood is incredibly low.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice.. can't get fooled again!

Try to be optimistic and positive, you may be pleasantly surprised.

By waiting 6 months you may very well be able to get a Rev. C or even the dual core G5.

[slughead]

slughead, pardon the people who don't know how real businesses work. A lot of businesses work on verbal agreements and deadlines. We place orders on the edge of receiving the payment the day before. That's how it really works. Heck, take a look at how the stock market operates - lots of last minute orders and cancellations.

People who sit at the convencience of their homes or do a 9 to 5 job for an employer will NEVER understand this.

I personally know how this operates because I've been there before going back to take my Masters. You take an order and get the materials that you need to fulfill that order. You know where those materials are and you bank of the company's delivery date of those materials, then you make your decision.

Yes it is a risk, but a risk that businesses are willing to play and pay for. slughead played that risk and he did get what the consequences were. It would be nice to see Apple operate as a professional business and to know when to disclose to their customers if they cannot make a deadline. That way, people who depend on their company can make better decisions and a healthier relationship.

As for the rest who can't understand this or why the hell he would need a G5, you will never get it until you are in the same position.

I have a G5 2.5, myself, which I have been using for FCP4HD and AE6.5 and I thought this would be enough. It's never enough. You do more and you ask for more. But then again, you guys will never understand.

Thanks guy! I think most people like us don't post on forums, they just see these delays and do what they have to do. It's not a luxury item, it's a tool for doing business, and I think there is a high percentage of Powermac buyers who see it this way.

Apple expects a hard hit every time they do this kind of thing, I'm amazed that they would risk so much to lower the opportunity cost NOT to cancel.

Instead of telling me that it was going to be delayed a 2 and a half months on 6/25, they told me a month and a half on 7/29, and a month on 8/19. Thus since I can make significantly fewer arrangements in that time period, it is less likely that I would cancel. They basically coerced me to wait so that the real wait time would seem less daunting. I would've already canceled half of my schedule for the 8/20 delay, and the other half later for the 9/03 delay.

One last thing: If they would've asked me, tonight, to ship my computer with the 9600XT tomorrow, I would've said yes. But the fact that they give me this BS choice of waiting another TWO weeks for something LESS THAN what I ordered is totally unacceptable, ESPECIALLY considering they'd ALREAY DELAYED MY ORDER.

Now people who ordered 2 months after I did with the 9800XT have already received their computers and I'd have to wait 2 weeks to get something not even as good as what they got?? If I treated my customers like that I'd be screwed.

I guess Apple has a lot more liquid assets to burn when they freeze up.

[FugiMax]

I just don't see why you ordered a Dual 2.5 with a 6800 ultra, when Apple *specifically* said the 6800 Ultra would not be available until "Late August."

If you truly had a contract you needed to buy this for, and it was essential for you to get it sometime before the end of August...why on earth did you opt for the 6800? It seems like that almost assured you wouldn't get it by the date you needed.

I have a DUal 2.5 6800 on order from ADC...no email here yet...but I assume that's because it's ADC...we get emails from different people.

[superfunkomatic]

i think this obsession a lot of posters have with the clock speed of their processors is ridiculous. what kind of work are you doing that it's essential to have one new computer to do all your work? and if you're in business already with presumably some equipment how is your current workflow?

maybe if you are working on an old 8600 the power g5 dual is a necessity, otherwise it seems like just another whiney post about "needing" fast computers.

[nbaker756]

apple did say it would not ship nvidia 6800 computers till late august. this being said, you should not have relied on it being shipped before then. also, consider this to be IBM's problem too. IBM is having numerous product delays and apple sadly has to put up with it. hopefully, IBM will get production up soon for all our sakes.

[Sun Baked]

apple did say it would not ship nvidia 6800 computers till late august. this being said, you should not have relied on it being shipped before then. also, consider this to be IBM's problem too. IBM is having numerous product delays and apple sadly has to put up with it. hopefully, IBM will get production up soon for all our sakes.Considering this GPU is probably being made by IBM at the East Fishkill fab, sort of makes you wonder how Apple likes getting punched in the face by their other AIM parter. :p

[LeonPro]

i think this obsession a lot of posters have with the clock speed of their processors is ridiculous. what kind of work are you doing that it's essential to have one new computer to do all your work? and if you're in business already with presumably some equipment how is your current workflow?

maybe if you are working on an old 8600 the power g5 dual is a necessity, otherwise it seems like just another whiney post about "needing" fast computers.

Of course, this comment is coming from a person who does not do the work we do that one has to ask what kind of work it is when I can think of lots of work that needs fast computers. I don't care to ask what kind of work YOU do.

Personally, it's not a new computer or clock speed that I'm obsessed about. With the work I do, I need the fastest available. Try working on picture editing. And I'm not talking about some home digital video editing. I'm talking about SD and HD video files in 8-bit and 10-bit mode where the file of 12 minutes of your DV is equal to 2 minutes of 8-bit SD for the same file size. And then try applying effects to those files in After-Effects, Shake or whatever compositing software you need. After applying the effects, try watching them in real-time. When you're satisfied, try rendering those effects. How much time do you think it will take? Is there a difference between a Dual 2.0GHz and Dual 2.5GHz? Hello?!

If we are in the business already (and you obviously aren't) then you won't know how much time we are losing by constantly waiting and rendering. If we can do it faster, then we save time. If we save time then we can afford to get more projects and more clients. So if we are able to get more work by saving time then that means time is money. My God they were right, weren't they?

Another "whiney" post for a faster computer. Dude, wake up! Everyone's requirements is not the same as yours. If you don't need a fast computer and you don't understand why, please don't try to even think and act smart that you know we don't need it. O K A Y.

[LeonPro]

Oh yeah, and one more thing. There is such a thing as SETI@home and Folding@home in case you still haven't heard. And before you ask, no I didn't buy a G5 to run those programs. While I need a fast computer to help me earn more clients and ultimately more money. There are other people with more meaningful jobs that NEED a faster computer to understand the human race and help save lives.

Why do you think they had to launch the @home programs to ask help from people who do not make full use of their computers and can contribute processing power for their research? You think one G5 will be enough for them? In case you also haven't heard, there is such a thing as supercomputers and render farms where a cluster of computers a thousand times more powerful than your average G5 is capable of performing for their research work. Why?

-----

WHY IS PROTEIN FOLDING SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND?

It's amazing that not only do proteins self-assemble -- fold -- but they do so amazingly quickly: some as fast as a millionth of a second. While this time is very fast on a person's timescale, it's remarkably long for computers to simulate.

In fact, it takes about a day to simulate a nanosecond (1/1,000,000,000 of a second). Unfortunately, proteins fold on the tens of microsecond timescale (10,000 nanoseconds). Thus, it would take 10,000 CPU days to simulate folding -- i.e. it would take 30 CPU years! That's a long time to wait for one result!

A SOLUTION: DISTRIBUTED DYNAMICS

To solve the protein folding problem, we need to break the microsecond barrier. Our group has developed a new way to simulate protein folding which can break the microsecond barrier by dividing the work between multiple processors in a new way -- with a near linear speed up in the number of processors. Thus, with 1000 processors, we can break the microsecond barrier and help unlock the mystery of how proteins fold.

-----

So while you try and understand why people need faster computers, try telling the scientists at Standford that they are just "whiney" people who are in need of help as they try to save lives.

[slughead]

So while you try and understand why people need faster computers, try telling the scientists at Standford that they are just "whiney" people who are in need of help as they try to save lives.

Yeah, I could totally kick those guys' asses and steal their computers.

I could burn the motherboards for warmth and save bundles on my electric bill! In a few years that'd make up for this contract I'm about to lose!

Now what the hell state is virginia tech in?

---
On a serious note, Mr. omatic, this G4 I have doesn't even fit the minimum requirements for the new Motion. I think it's really awesome that you can just glance at my situation and know that since I'm not running some computing cluster, I'd have no use for a *modern* workstation.

It's really not my fault Apple's been selling obsolete computers from 1995-2003. When I bought this machine, people still thought Bush was stupid (the first time). That seems like a decade ago, and in computing terms that was like 80 years ago.

Every mac user gets screwed by Apple at least once a year, I had no idea they'd screw me twice in one month! Plus, you really have to imagine the gaul of Apple--canceling twice within hours of shipment. I mean, wow. If I had balls that big, people might think I'm from the coastal region of Tanzania .. ... .. nevermind.

If we are in the business already (and you obviously aren't) then you won't know how much time we are losing by constantly waiting and rendering. If we can do it faster, then we save time. If we save time then we can afford to get more projects and more clients. So if we are able to get more work by saving time then that means time is money. My God they were right, weren't they?

For the work I would have been doing, the speed of the G5 compared to what I have now would've paid for itself in about 2-3 months. I suppose this suggests roughly how much I lost on this deal; try to keep it under your hat, will ya?

Smaller projects are more fun anyway, and I get paid like I'm still in high school. Radical dude!

[slughead]

Considering this GPU is probably being made by IBM at the East Fishkill fab, sort of makes you wonder how Apple likes getting punched in the face by their other AIM parter. :p

I have a feeling this is Apple's fault.

Well, at least the 'processors' delay. I think they're diverting 90nm's to the iMacs, and weren't expecting to have to do that. The stock dip on the supposed delay was HUGE. Apparently the stock market had accepted the imacs as a given and saw the lack of imacs as a delay :X.

I'd imagine someone at the top of the company who's middle name starts with P ordered supplies to be diverted. Apparently it was Jobs' fault the iMacs were delayed in the first place, as he was behind the new design. Maybe he was trying to make up for it by pushing the iMacs out before october.

And then there's the video cards. I'd imagine that mass production on the video cards STARTED when they were announced at WWDC. 2 months is about right to re-tool and construct cards. Perhaps Apple's secrecy for the WWDC "big bang" was to blame. Or perhaps they weren't ready and Jobs wanted to announce it anyway. So he didn't look like a douche for having zero iMacs and a significantly crappier G5.

[paxtonandrew]

Hey slughead, sorry to hear about the delay (and ultimate cancellation) of your G5. That is really disappointing for Apple, and also for them to do it to you. The people out there who don't realize that for some, computers are not an appliance, but their way of generating income. My work uses Macs (lowly G4's) and for workstation use they are fine. Ask them to do any graphics or film editing work, and they will struggle. I can see how hard it will be for people who want Apple's fastest computer, and also the best graphics card, to wait for what seems like an age (and the wait is for that graphics card, not necessarily for the G5 chips) and then to constantly delay them.

Maybe somebody could set up a "WE DEMAND OUR 2.5GHZ G5s WITH THE GE-FORCE 6800 OR WE SWITCH TO DELL! petition and give it to Steve or somebody high up like that. Or somebody going to Paris to bail Phil Schiller and demand to know where they are.

I hope things work out for you, and that you can work out a new computer.

Good Luck

[mattthemutt]

Being the pretty smart company that they are, couldn't they have learned that they will probably require a large supply of the new item? It happened with a couple of things. (ie Mini and G5)

[morkintosh]

Well my reputation has been damaged

that is your own fault

Long story short, I can't do that (I certainly would if I could though).

Macmall, your local university, depending on where you live even an Apple store. There are all kinds of options. I am a software architect for a living and I don't think I have ever encountered a system that is small enough that one guy can do it with a new computer but is so complex as to require a dual G5 2.5. Quit whining, you should have canceled long ago and just picked up a dual 2.0.

and that thing I just read 3 or so posts back about Stanford scientists ... gimme a f**cking break! Comparing this one guys contract to a major university research grant ... pathetic analogy!

[morkintosh]

[SIZE=4]

*throws something* What kind of an asshole makes billions of dollars a year wearing blue jeans to work!! If I ever meet that guy I'm gonna kick him sqa' in the nuts!!!

to be fair, and I'm no huge Jobs fan, he only makes a $1 a year. The billions come for options that he only can exercise if certian company milestones are met ... so every few years lately.

[slughead]

Macmall, your local university, depending on where you live even an Apple store. There are all kinds of options. I am a software architect for a living and I don't think I have ever encountered a system that is small enough that one guy can do it with a new computer but is so complex as to require a dual G5 2.5. Quit whining, you should have canceled long ago and just picked up a dual 2.0.

<3

and that thing I just read 3 or so posts back about Stanford scientists ... gimme a f**cking break! Comparing this one guys contract to a major university research grant ... pathetic analogy!

I think he was joking...

[kant]

I am a software architect for a living and I don't think I have ever encountered a system that is small enough that one guy can do it with a new computer but is so complex as to require a dual G5 2.5.

Well aren't you special: situations that you've never encountered are not possible.

Hey slughead:

You said in earlier posts that you "made a mistake" and you "shouldn't have" signed the contract without having the necessary tools. And several others have jumped on you for doing so. Some even saying that you were unethical to do so.

Bull.

You made a business decision based upon a calculated gamble that you could acquire the required tools prior to the start of the job. Small businesses in all professions have to make that kind of gamble every day. It takes large amounts of liquidity to purchase expensive tools on the speculation that you'll be able to bid on larger contracts that require the upgraded equipment. And very few small businesses have that kind of liquidity.

It was neither a mistake nor an ethical lapse for you to do what you did. I'm sorry for you that the gamble didn't pay off but the fact that you were willing to make the gamble shows you have the necessary attitude to make a go of your business. "Nothing ventured, nothing gained" may be a cliche, but it is also true. The only mistake you can make here would be in learning the wrong lesson from this situation.

I've noticed that people who aren't willing to make these kinds of calculated gambles usually work for those who are.

[LeonPro]

that is your own fault

Macmall, your local university, depending on where you live even an Apple store. There are all kinds of options. I am a software architect for a living and I don't think I have ever encountered a system that is small enough that one guy can do it with a new computer but is so complex as to require a dual G5 2.5. Quit whining, you should have canceled long ago and just picked up a dual 2.0.

and that thing I just read 3 or so posts back about Stanford scientists ... gimme a f**cking break! Comparing this one guys contract to a major university research grant ... pathetic analogy!

And yet another post proving my point once again.

Can you believe this kid? Another person who thinks his workload is the reference point for the rest of humanity for he never "encountered a system that is small enough that one guy can do it with a new computer but is so complex as to require a dual G5 2.5." Yup, the reference for workload for the rest of us is the basis on your workload. Wake up!

And do watch your language. It's your pathetic way of arguing and vulagarity that brings you down to the pack of animals. So don't let us level with you. You want to argue, go ahead. But don't ever include immature arguments with words as "f@cking" to this crowd.

Anyway, I have come to realize based on responses from this thread that not everyone will ever understand that the real business world operates on risk. If you fail, you fail. Move on and learn. But what amazes me is how people who haven't a clue about this kind of workflow will call you names, push you down and laugh at your failure for the what you did. There are employers and employees. Only those who understand the former will ever become one. The rest will just move on and band together and form all kinds of arguments seen above.

[slughead]

Thanks kant, that's very reassuring.

I'm relatively new to this game (about 3 years into it), thanks to everyone for giving me direction and suggestions.

I'll try to turn this around by taking on smaller projects for stranger companies, maybe form more relationships and get another big contract by the end of this quarter.

Freelancing is cool, but it comes with a great deal of responsibility and stress. I wouldn't recommend it for most people, but for some of us, we couldn't have it any other way.

*Neil Young's "keep on rockin' in the free world" comes on*

[morkintosh]

Well aren't you special: situations that you've never encountered are not possible.

I'm not saying that there aren't any, I am just saying that I "think" they might be rare given both my profession and my degrees thats all; let the reader draw his/her own conclusions.

And as far as jumping him for business decisions, that is not at all what I (and some others) are doing. I for one understand why he would be angry, but call it what it is; he is mad he doesn't get a new toy when he wants/thinks he should have it. Don't blame Apple, the contracting agency and everyone else under the sun.

[morkintosh]

And yet another post proving my point once again.

it's not my personal workload that I am using as a reference point, but every system that I've ever studied or taught courses on (yes I am old enough to teach). Software systems are RARELY (but sometimes possible I admit) so complex that they need the kind of horse power that we are talking about yet are simple enough that a single developer can work on them.

Since I teach as well I will let the teacher in me give some advice: pick up a few books on software engineering and/or complex software engagements; The Mythical Man Month is a good starting point.

[LeonPro]

it's not my personal workload that I am using as a reference point, but every system that I've ever studied or taught courses on (yes I am old enough to teach). Software systems are RARELY (but sometimes possible I admit) so complex that they need the kind of horse power that we are talking about yet are simple enough that a single developer can work on them.

Since I teach as well I will let the teacher in me give some advice: pick up a few books on software engineering and/or complex software engagements; The Mythical Man Month is a good starting point.

Since you are a teacher, you of all people should have the ability to listen, understand and read. Read my posts, please. I, of all people here in this thread, has been very understanding of the requirements of a computer in one's own field.

This is just for you in layman's terms since you may have been too caught up in programming language - people are different. Yes, they are. Really. They have different computer requirements. Others for word processing and email, others for gaming, others who make the games, others who create software applications, etc. You get the point. If they are satisfied with the amount of processing power, then good. Others who need more to do more, then good. Do I have to ridicule either one of them?

So what about "The Mythical Man Month" by Brooks should I read about that I haven't already read in 1998? So I can understand a work of a software engineer? As a former programmer in high school, I read stuff. What else would you attempt to recommend to me? "Rapid Development", "The Pragmatic Programmer" or perhaps "Software Project Survival Guide".

So what about it? You wanted me to understand YOUR kind of work, which I don't refute. That the book discusses about software engineers and how they can come to realize about managing the projects, the people and the respective environment/scenario. This book is for software engineers who have been "promoted" to be software architects - the manager of the project. This book is for you alright as it talks about the humanity in management of software projects. Re-read it as I think YOU haven't absorbed it.

So once again, your reasoning is flawed and futile to the thread. We are NOT talking about your work. No one is rebutting that software systems are not complex. No one is rebutting that your line of work could be a little bit more complex. But we are not talking about you. We are talking about OTHER people's line of work that could use a little more processing power. Not yours. So until you can get out of your reasoning around YOURSELF, try to imagine other kinds of work.

Instead of recommending a book to read, try this on your computer so you will understand my line of work. Obtain an uncompressed 8-bit video file sourced from SD and just play around with it. Apply effects, some titles. Lets see how much render time it takes in a G5 2.0 before you can view a few seconds of the clip. Try FCP4HD. Toss it in Shake or, heck, even AE6.5 and apply a few more filters. Try even viewing the file in AE without waiting for RAM preview. I'm not talking about your home user's DV codec. I'm not even talking about HDV or DVCPro HD. Those are for consumers/prosumers. I'm talking about a file size of 160GB of space is worth 2 hours, when that same file space could fit 12 hours of your average DV. And I'm not talking about editing in iMovie or Final Cut Express, because they don't have the capability to input, output or play those kinds of files.

Once again, I totally respect every person's work and if they are happy with what their current CPU can give then that's great. But if that's the only basis of comparison for this argument, then the argument is pointless. So please, before you go on teaching us. Teach yourself that there are other works outside besides yours.

[kingtj]

To be honest, that's what I thought too... Just cancel the order and go pick up a dual 2.0Ghz system locally someplace. Problem solved, more or less, plus you have instant gratification.

I've bought every Mac system I ever purchased locally, because frankly - when I spend that kind of money on a computer, I don't want UPS or FedEx throwing it around - getting something screwed up, and me being the first person to notice it. At least when they ship to stores, the store can weed out damaged boxes and deal with returns, so you don't have to.

That said though, the guy has a valid complaint. It's one that's so common, in fact, it's practically a sick joke amongst all Mac users! When Apple announces a new product, it's almost a given it'll experience delays and you won't see it for at least 1-3 months after they tell you they're building it.

In the case of the 2.5Ghz G5's, more than in any other previous case, I think it really is more a matter of IBM not producing what they promised/agreed to. Apple may really have their hands tied on this -- but it wouldn't be so bad if they didn't do this so often before.

Apple has an awful lot of "liquid capital" (EG. cash on hand) that they could invest in such things as better initial R&D, or maybe more in-house production facilities. They choose not to though. I can envision plenty of financial reasons they might not want to - but all the recalls and quality issues make one wonder if that's still the best move?

Surely, with some more initial quality assurance testing and/or R&D, someone would have caught the "white spots" issue on Powerbook displays? Someone would have realized there were some latch problems on 15" Powerbooks. Maybe they would have even redesigned things to prevent the aluminum cases from warping when they get hot? I would have also thought quality testers would give a big "thumbs down" to the chrome back of the iPods - due to it scratching too easily. (Heck, the little tag sewn in the back of Apple's standard belt-clip iPod case even puts marks on them after a while!)


Even though Apple is being lame here, you are ultimately to blame for the loss of business. You knew that Apple has had these problems before, and you went for the cutting edge anyway. I'm positive you DON'T NEED a dual 2.5GHz machine to do whatever work it is you need to do. You could waltz into an Apple Store right now and pick up a Dual 2.0 or 1.8, and bring it back and get your work done just fine.

Lee Tom

[morkintosh]

So what about it? You wanted me to understand YOUR kind of work,

You completely miss the point here, I'm not saying anything about MY work, I am speaking in very general terms. You seem to get very defensive about the work you do and people being critical of what they consider to be bad business practice (although I'm not saying that what happened here was that).

As to your examples about video compression; I haven't worked in that medium it is true, so I looked at Apple’s own benchmarks (from the Film and Video Virtuoso section (http://www.apple.com/powermac/performance/)), the 2.5 G5 is much faster than the 2.0 G5, 15% so above baseline. So lets do some VERY raw math that just gives a quick and by no means truly scientific example:

I'll pretend that it takes 30min to render that file you are referring to at the baseline (I concede that I may have this way off). The G5 2.0 is 13% faster than the base line, so on a dual 2.0 it will take around 26min. Since this dual 2.5 is 28% faster than the base line it will take about 24min to do the same file; we save 2 whole minutes. Lets scale it up just a wee bit and do a file that takes 5 hours at baseline, the dual 2.0 gets it done in about 4 and 1/2 hours where the dual 2.5 does it in around 3 and 3/4. That is a little bit faster, enought so that it would make having that dual 2.5 very much worth having.

It seems I was mistaken about the need for horsepower. I will say through, that if it means killing a contract I'd wait the extra 45min on a slower computer doing the rendering rather than not get paid.

You seem to be fairly well versed in software engineering books, so I'll recommend something else that I think you could benefit from a lot more. Try checking out this title (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0062505890/103-0531136-4540655?v=glance), I think you will find it most useful.

[LeonPro]

You completely miss the point here, I'm not saying anything about MY work, I am speaking in very general terms. You seem to get very defensive about the work you do and people being critical of what they consider to be bad business practice (although I'm not saying that what happened here was that).

As to your examples about video compression; I haven't worked in that medium it is true, so I looked at Apple’s own benchmarks (from the Film and Video Virtuoso section (http://www.apple.com/powermac/performance/)), the 2.5 G5 is much faster than the 2.0 G5, 15% so above baseline. So lets do some VERY raw math that just gives a quick and by no means truly scientific example:

I'll pretend that it takes 30min to render that file you are referring to at the baseline (I concede that I may have this way off). The G5 2.0 is 13% faster than the base line, so on a dual 2.0 it will take around 26min. Since this dual 2.5 is 28% faster than the base line it will take about 24min to do the same file; we save 2 whole minutes. Lets scale it up just a wee bit and do a file that takes 5 hours at baseline, the dual 2.0 gets it done in about 4 and 1/2 hours where the dual 2.5 does it in around 3 and 3/4. That is a little bit faster, enought so that it would make having that dual 2.5 very much worth having.

It seems I was mistaken about the need for horsepower. I will say through, that if it means killing a contract I'd wait the extra 45min on a slower computer doing the rendering rather than not get paid.

You seem to be fairly well versed in software engineering books, so I'll recommend something else that I think you could benefit from a lot more. Try checking out this title (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0062505890/103-0531136-4540655?v=glance), I think you will find it most useful.

Okay, to lighten up a bit in my replies. I'm actually glad you found from your theoretical calculations that the difference between a 2.0 and a 2.5 will shave hours. I re-checked the benchmark in Apple's page. Remember those are theoretical calculations that only accounts for render time. In the real-world scenario, there will have to be multiple render times to accommodate for changes dictated by clients. A contract doesn't last 45 minutes or an hour. A project lasts from days to months. You work in multiple programs and with multiple teams - visual effects artists, composers, matte painters, etc. And that doesn't account for render times in other apps that isn't optimized by Apple. So in the real world, the waiting time is not 45 minutes for a contract.

Actually, I just had to take the defensive stance simply because when people ridicule other people regarding how much processing power they need without being in their shoes it's just annoying to argue by first making them understand why. Especially at the end of the day, it would be nice to accept mulitple clients per day just by shaving minutes and hours of our time. It's like a visit to a doctor's office. You wait in line as he tenders to other patients. If he can "process" their case faster, then he can get the next one. And how much do they pay for a visit? My last visit was USD150 and it only took me 15 minutes of his time.

Lastly, thanks for another book recommendation. I haven't read that one because I never heard about it, "Facing Codependence: What It Is, Where It Comes From, How It Sabotages Our Lives." I'm a very happy married man with a relationship for 8 years already. I have a very healthy relationship with my friends and family. And I frequently handle calls between them as mediator when there are misunderstandings simply because they know I can look at the situation BEFORE making any judgement on them, their actions. They treat me as their shrink and I've grown to accept it. Your book recommendations humor me. I didn't know whether to get offended or humored, but it was so off that it really had to make me laugh. So thanks for the change in pace, thanks for trying to understand other people's situation. Rather than say the book should be re-read by you, I will end by saying nothing in hopes that our civil agreement of other people's requirement for processing power does differ and faster may (I won't attempt to argue anymore if I say WILL) in fact matter.

[morkintosh]

Lastly, thanks for another book recommendation. I haven't read that one.

well you really should, that entire last diatribe justifying your actions and attempting to make your self feel (or be?) OK solidifies my opinion that you should seek professional help with your co-dependence. Perhaps you should consider some group therapy as well, clearly your relationship with your spouse and fiends is enabling this disturbing behavior.

[LeonPro]

well you really should, that entire last diatribe justifying your actions and attempting to make your self feel (or be?) OK solidifies my opinion that you should seek professional help with your co-dependence. Perhaps you should consider some group therapy as well, clearly your relationship with your spouse and fiends is enabling this disturbing behavior.

Can you believe this guy? You're really unbelievable. The way you try to reason and judge other people is so stupendously stupid, it's humorous. First you reason that YOUR work justifies everyone's requirement for a computer. Then you do an about turn and say, you're not comparing your work.

[Do you even know how to read what you wrote? If you need a book recommendation try this for you,

"How to Read Slowly: Reading for Comprehension by James W. Sire".

I looked it up at Borders just for you.]

And then you try to wiggle your way out of the thread by hitting instead on MY character and that my relationship is disturbing behavior. Huh? Why are you even trying so hard. Just because I have a healthy relationship with my friends and family AND YOU DON'T, doesn't mean I am the one with the disturbing behavior.

My diatribe justifying mself to make me feel OK? Ha ha ha. I don't need to argue to feel okay. My diatribe is especially made for people like you.

Really. Who in hell argues like this guy? Uh, I have a book to recommend you to understand my living. Uh, I have this other book to recommend you regarding your relationship. Uh, since you haven't read it you should since you are disturbing. What a freaking nerd! Ha ha ha!

You crack me up. This person, really has to be stopped. He argues by trying to attack you personally.

Look in the mirror and check out your forehead, you will see a big "L". What a LOSER.

I gave you a peace offering in my last post but you refuse and try to attack me even more by getting out of the topic and judging me this time. My advice, stop your arguments before you start to stutter and shake in embarassment. Your posts only serve to shame yourself.

[Rower_CPU]

Enough with the personal attacks, folks.

This thread is done.