Apple Reportedly Addressing Fraud by Third-Party Service Centers

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/12/31/apple-reportedly-addressing-fraud-by-third-party-service-centers/)

In a pair of articles published over the past week, Hardmac reveals that Apple has been working to fight against fraud perpetrated against the company by third-party authorized service centers. According to the initial report (http://www.hardmac.com/news/2009/12/23/apple-had-to-confront-fraud-at-its-after-sales-service-centres) published last week, the fraud was conducted by repair centers both charging customers for out-of-warranty repairs and also reporting to Apple that the machines were under warranty, thus receiving free parts as well as remuneration from Apple for conducting the repairs.Thus, certain After-Sales Service Centres could pass under guarantee of repairs, machine that were not covered, and also invoiced these repairs to the customer thus ensuring a healthy profit to them.In yesterday's follow-up article (http://www.hardmac.com/news/2009/12/30/a-little-more-on-apple-service-providers-defrauding-apple), Hardmac provides a bit more detail on how this was accomplished, using a process known as "stitching" in which vendors utilized the serial numbers of computers under warranty held on file at the repair facility when reporting issues to Apple rather than the actual serial numbers of non-covered equipment brought in for service.Stitching is the process by which an Apple Service Provider (ASP) technically defrauds Apple. This happens by a customer coming in for an out-of-warranty repair (as an example lets use a macbook top case). The customer's macbook top case is no longer working and they are happy to pay to get it fixed. Instead of the ASP ordering the part from apple as out-of-warranty and making around 15% gross profit margin, the ASP would find a serial number in their database of previous repairs (of an identical model) and order the part as a warranty part from a serial number they have found. This technically allows the ASP to pay nothing for the part, but then make 100% margin.Apple reportedly discovered the fraud only after several years of experience with its own Genius Bar repair channel, where significantly lower proportions of warranty repairs were seen. Upon conducting audits of its American and then global authorized service centers, the company apparently found a number of cases of significant fraud perpetrated using this method.

According to the report, at least one large service center in the United Kingdom has been entirely closed down in the wake of Apple's fraud investigation, with several others in the "Far East" also possibly meeting the same fate.

In order to address the fraud, Apple has reportedly rolled out enhanced tracking of part numbers in its repair ordering system and deployed software to assist the company in making sure that the proper parts are being installed in the proper computers.

Article Link: Apple Reportedly Addressing Fraud by Third-Party Service Centers (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/12/31/apple-reportedly-addressing-fraud-by-third-party-service-centers/)

[fun173]

i hope those companies have some t-shirt designs ready cuz i think apple will sue them.

[Doctor Q]

Will Apple simply cut off their business or will normally secretive Apple work with law enforcement so the perpetrators can be prosecuted?

[theheadguy]

I don't see this as front page news... it's not like it is common only to Apple.

[jared_kipe]

Huge surprise!!

Its a scam that a 5 year old could come up with. Practically every part inside these computers are serialized, why were they not cross checking the received defective part's serial against the one that left the factory?

[SwitchingtoMAC]

Will Apple simply cut off their business or will normally secretive Apple work with law enforcement so the perpetrators can be prosecuted?
the company gets a fine and then at apples discretion it could get its service and sales authorization stripped

[Morod]

I know one third-party company that should come under Apple scrutiny. They are (mostly) a bunch of crooks and liars!

[akadmon]

How about the scam Apple is running on owners of 2006-2207 Mac Pros in which Apple refuses to honor their warranty on ATI 4870 video cards purchased for those machines, simply because in its infinite wisdom Apple decided these cards are not compatible with those models of Mac Pro, even though the cards work just fine in them?

[brownieguy19]

Number 1 on the fraud list should be....

Best Buy.

I have personally overheard conversations by sales people telling an innocent couple they need to purchase the Best Buy protection plan. (Because it is better than Apple Care) Just as I would in any case, I enter myself into the conversation and tell the consumer they do not need to buy Best Buy's plan and can wait up to a year to purchase AppleCare, for les money than the BB protection BS. As the sales person back peddles, I find they are often incredibly misinformed and are simply reading from a script.

I have always had an OK experience at Best Buy, but I would NEVER suggest to anyone purchasing an Apple product from Best Buy, or bringing it back to the store for repair. It absolutely IRRITATES me when I see a beautiful brand new iMac sitting back in their Geek Squad, knowing a family was ripped off by some up-sell. IMHO, their tactics are no less deceiving than this other fraud being described.

[Mal]

Number 1 on the fraud list should be....

Best Buy.

I have personally overheard conversations by sales people telling an innocent couple they need to purchase the Best Buy protection plan. (Because it is better than Apple Care) Just as I would in any case, I enter myself into the conversation and tell the consumer they do not need to buy Best Buy's plan and can wait up to a year to purchase AppleCare, for les money than the BB protection BS. As the sales person back peddles, I find they are often incredibly misinformed and are simply reading from a script.

I have always had an OK experience at Best Buy, but I would NEVER suggest to anyone purchasing an Apple product from Best Buy, or bringing it back to the store for repair. It absolutely IRRITATES me when I see a beautiful brand new iMac sitting back in their Geek Squad, knowing a family was ripped off by some up-sell. IMHO, their tactics are no less deceiving than this other fraud being described.

You do realize that what you're talking about has absolutely nothing to do with the topic being discussed, right?

I'm glad to see Apple cracking down on this, as I would any other company being defrauded by idiots trying to make a quick buck.

jW

[hiimamac]

I don't see this as front page news... it's not like it is common only to Apple.

Indeed. You will find this in any major company, sometimes not in the light if money either, e.g. One if the big three auto America auto dealers, if not all, creating parts that break in 2-3 years or, another example, Evette get your car fixed then 6 month later, if not sooner, something else breaks. Coincidece. Hardly. That's why rightvafter the manufacture warranty is over, things start falling apart. They CAN make these parts last ten years but don't.

One thing I like about apple, except the older mice aneld iPhone cables, is that for the most part, they can last 6+ years if not moved all the time.

Peace.

[zed2]

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Hmm I wonder which was the UK company they closed down. I've dealt with a few here in the UK and I'm note sure I could say one has gone smoothly.

[maelstromr]

How about the scam Apple is running on owners of 2006-2207 Mac Pros in which Apple refuses to honor their warranty on ATI 4870 video cards purchased for those machines, simply because in its infinite wisdom Apple decided these cards are not compatible with those models of Mac Pro, even though the cards work just fine in them?

So you stuffed an unsupported product into a computer, (as I recall didn't Apple say they wouldn't support installing these cards in the old Mac Pros from day 1?) and are now mad that it won't be supported, in said unsupported install? Aside from being off-topic, this seems fairly irrational.

[Canal Noises]

I'm not trying to defend these service centers or say that they aren't doing anything wrong, but I bet Apple wouldn't have these problems if they didn't make it so hard for these companies to make any money. Apple makes huge margins on their computers, but only lets Authorized Resellers make around 10% on each.

[globalhemp]

I purchased an iMac in 1999. I originally tried to buy it locally, but my local supplier had none in stock and they were not too friendly. So, I decided to purchase from mail order catalog "Club Mac."

Doing so enabled me to double my RAM from something like 64 MB to 128 MB or something like that for "free" so long as I paid them $30 or so to install it -- still a bargain at that time! I also got free shipping and no IL sales tax.
However, once I received my iMac, the dial-up modem made noises. I turned the modem to mute, still noisy. I turned the system volume to mute and it still made noises. So, I called Apple for help. Then found that the motherboard was bad and needed to be replaced. Apple provided me with a support ticket number and told me to go get it fixed locally. That's where the real problem started.

The local Apple Authorized Reseller said that since I did not purchase my iMac from them, I would have to pay a $30 fee. I told them to go to hell. So, I called Apple and told them this did not seem right and Apple said that I was correct, they are not supposed to do that. Apple said they would tell "the highest authority" about this problem, but in the meantime I needed to find another dealer. So, I did ... one that was 70 miles away!

The dealer that was 70 miles away had the motherboard replaced in less than 24 hours and have ZERO charges for doing so -- the way a warranty is supposed to work!

A year ago, I spoke with another Apple Authorized Dealer and told them my story. The owner told me that it is in his agreement with Apple that he can -- and will / does -- charge a $30 fee for fixing Apple products that ARE covered under warranty. To me, this is not right.

The same dealer told me that since Peoria, IL will most likely never have an Apple Store, he wanted to build one at our upscale mall. He said that he submitted a proposal showing that his store would look almost identical to an Apple Store, and Apple said "NO!" to that. So, we will never have an Apple Store in Peoria and any attempt at trying to build one is shot down by Apple.

Bottom line: Apple needs to find a better method for Apple Authorized Dealers. Since most people purchase directly from Apple, there should not be a $30 or more charge for products that ARE legitimately covered by a warranty. However, it looks like Apple is concerned about illegal warranty repair, but they should look into ALL repairs -- and all the BS charges that are passed onto consumers.

An Apple laptop cost nearly double for slightly better hardware and certainly better OS, but at that price premium, users should get the red carpet rolled out for them. Hell, Apple should pick up the computer from my house via FedEx Next Day Air, fix it, and ship it back for some of these price premiums. Instead, we have local dealers who say that they are authorized to charge us, plus get paid by Apple for the warranty repair!

[elppa]

Why don't Apple just do out of warranty service themselves?

I'd be happier going via them to be honest.

[flopticalcube]

Good. Apple should come down hard on these businesses. Luckily, its not widespread or Apple would have a weaker hand in dealing with them.

While I agree it probably happens in lots of other industries, its front page material because Apple discovered it and is putting a stop to the practice.

[akadmon]

So you stuffed an unsupported product into a computer, (as I recall didn't Apple say they wouldn't support installing these cards in the old Mac Pros from day 1?) and are now mad that it won't be supported, in said unsupported install? Aside from being off-topic, this seems fairly irrational.

Care to tell me what other upgrade options Apple gave me? OK, I'll tell you: buy a new Mac Pro. The only reason why 4870 is not supported on my Mac Pro is because Apple would rather have me pay for a new machine. Makes perfect sense, for Apple.

[DTphonehome]

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Reminds me of when apple retailers bitched and moaned when the Apple Stores first started. Apple couldn't stand for them doing a lousy job selling computers, so they decided to do it themselves, with spectacular results. I can see a future where apple only allows repairs at their facilities to prevent this sort of thing.

[Rocketman]

This is only half of the story. The other half is a LARGE price differential in the favor of Apple on in-warranty customer damage repairs.

We had a MacBook Pro we damaged which was still under warranty. Apple quoted $1250 to do the repairs. A third party authorized shop did the repairs for $650.

So Apple has a disproportionate relationship with their own authorized third party repair shops (subject of several past lawsuits and formal complaints), which has only been accelerated by maximal pricing on retail sales and retail repairs offered in Apple Stores.

On another occasion I got a PBG4 repaired under warranty and it came back not only with its MacMall upgraded memory missing, but only 128mb of the original memory installed, thus causing repeated crashing, which Apple refused to fix. A third party did out of warranty repairs on the APPLE service and identified the problem, sold me new memory and handed me a working machine a year after its purchase.

I am just one guy and have been accused of being a Fanboi in the past, so it's gotta be bad out there.

Rocketman

Suggested public services by MacRumors

1. List of third party repair and upgrade shops by authorized or not. Ability to comment on service experience.

2. List of third party warranty services, especially that cover customer damage. IIRC they are the same or lower cost than Applecare.

[darkplanets]

Why don't Apple just do out of warranty service themselves?

I'd be happier going via them to be honest.
This.

Fraud is fraud, regardless of cause, and I'd much rather have Apple themselves doing the repairs, not some half-assed Best Buy representative who doesn't even know the difference between SATA and PATA.

I kind of wondered myself why Apple doesn't have a large retail presence and allows for so many authorized retailers-- especially for repairs. One would think they would want to control the repair process, both in and out of warranty, with large repair centers.

[DTphonehome]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_1_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7D11 Safari/528.16)

I purchased an iMac in 1999. I originally tried to buy it locally, but my local supplier had none in stock and they were not too friendly. So, I decided to purchase from mail order catalog "Club Mac."

Doing so enabled me to double my RAM from something like 64 MB to 128 MB or something like that for "free" so long as I paid them $30 or so to install it -- still a bargain at that time! I also got free shipping and no IL sales tax.
However, once I received my iMac, the dial-up modem made noises. I turned the modem to mute, still noisy. I turned the system volume to mute and it still made noises. So, I called Apple for help. Then found that the motherboard was bad and needed to be replaced. Apple provided me with a support ticket number and told me to go get it fixed locally. That's where the real problem started.

The local Apple Authorized Reseller said that since I did not purchase my iMac from them, I would have to pay a $30 fee. I told them to go to hell. So, I called Apple and told them this did not seem right and Apple said that I was correct, they are not supposed to do that. Apple said they would tell "the highest authority" about this problem, but in the meantime I needed to find another dealer. So, I did ... one that was 70 miles away!

The dealer that was 70 miles away had the motherboard replaced in less than 24 hours and have ZERO charges for doing so -- the way a warranty is supposed to work!

A year ago, I spoke with another Apple Authorized Dealer and told them my story. The owner told me that it is in his agreement with Apple that he can -- and will / does -- charge a $30 fee for fixing Apple products that ARE covered under warranty. To me, this is not right.

The same dealer told me that since Peoria, IL will most likely never have an Apple Store, he wanted to build one at our upscale mall. He said that he submitted a proposal showing that his store would look almost identical to an Apple Store, and Apple said "NO!" to that. So, we will never have an Apple Store in Peoria and any attempt at trying to build one is shot down by Apple.

Bottom line: Apple needs to find a better method for Apple Authorized Dealers. Since most people purchase directly from Apple, there should not be a $30 or more charge for products that ARE legitimately covered by a warranty. However, it looks like Apple is concerned about illegal warranty repair, but they should look into ALL repairs -- and all the BS charges that are passed onto consumers.

An Apple laptop cost nearly double for slightly better hardware and certainly better OS, but at that price premium, users should get the red carpet rolled out for them. Hell, Apple should pick up the computer from my house via FedEx Next Day Air, fix it, and ship it back for some of these price premiums. Instead, we have local dealers who say that they are authorized to charge us, plus get paid by Apple for the warranty repair!

Apple rejected a reseller from copying the exact style of the Apple Store? You're surprised by this? Apple builds their own stores so they can run them the way they like, not the way some dude in Peoria wants to run it.

[elppa]

This.

Fraud is fraud, regardless of cause, and I'd much rather have Apple themselves doing the repairs, not some half-assed Best Buy representative who doesn't even know the difference between SATA and PATA.

Funny how they know that other four letter acronym beginning with P — PITA…

[rdowns]

As an AAPL stockholder, I like. :D


i hope those companies have some t-shirt designs ready cuz i think apple will sue them.


Bravo! :D

[phillipduran]

Wait for it. . . Some people are going to be tossed out of some 15 story buildings. Don't !#!@# with Apple. :D

[Mal]

Care to tell me what other upgrade options Apple gave me? OK, I'll tell you: buy a new Mac Pro. The only reason why 4870 is not supported on my Mac Pro is because Apple would rather have me pay for a new machine. Makes perfect sense, for Apple.

Seriously? You're angry because they didn't give you something they didn't promise? Upgrades, of any type, are never guaranteed. Deal with it.

jW

[phillipduran]

An Apple laptop cost nearly double for slightly better hardware and certainly better OS, but at that price premium, users should get the red carpet rolled out for them. Hell, Apple should pick up the computer from my house via FedEx Next Day Air, fix it, and ship it back for some of these price premiums. Instead, we have local dealers who say that they are authorized to charge us, plus get paid by Apple for the warranty repair!

Not true dude. Thats senseless unresearched PC talk there. Compare Laptop specs and included software and the Mac is the better deal AND you wont be getting a PC with the build quality that you get in a Mac.

I buy Apple care with my laptops and I've had to send two in for repairs before. Save the Red Carpet, they did pick up the cost and they next day aired the shipping box and the fixed Mac back to me. I have also been given the option to have it repaired at a local authorized dealer or send it to Apple for their techs to repair. I aways choose the Apple option.

[rdowns]

I'm not trying to defend these service centers or say that they aren't doing anything wrong, but I bet Apple wouldn't have these problems if they didn't make it so hard for these companies to make any money. Apple makes huge margins on their computers, but only lets Authorized Resellers make around 10% on each.


Nonsense. First, this type of fraud is rampant for all manufacturers. This is hardly specific to Apple. Apple, with so much more control over their product distribution, are in a better position than others in combatting it.

As for reseller "only making 10%", I bet most are ecstatic with that. Margins on PCs is often under 5 points. No one, other than the mfg. make money (and many of them lose money). You make you money on accessories and service contracts.

[SwitchingtoMAC]

A year ago, I spoke with another Apple Authorized Dealer and told them my story. The owner told me that it is in his agreement with Apple that he can -- and will / does -- charge a $30 fee for fixing Apple products that ARE covered under warranty. To me, this is not right.



I work for an independent sales and service provider and per our contract with apple there is no charge to the customer for warranty work except if there is physical damage or if data recovery is needed

[thejadedmonkey]

Does this also effect Applecare service centers if I sent my laptop in?

[Ubuntu]

I don't see this as front page news... it's not like it is common only to Apple.

But then this is news about Apple. :D

[tcampb01]

The auto-industry had (has) the same problem - but it's even easier to confuse the consumer because in a car, often the warranty covers some parts of the car, but not others -- even when they use terms like "bumper to bumper" warranty.

A dealership may tell you that "this particular part isn't covered under warranty" and you'll have to pay for it. After you pay for the service, they go ahead and submit the repair to the manufacturer anyway -- thus double-dipping on the reimbursement.

To combat, many manufacturers now do a follow-up customer satisfaction phone call or survey, which tries to be very clear that they are following-up to find out how happy you were with your "free warranty repair" (at which point you reply "free? no... I paid for it.")

[Digitalclips]

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Hmm I wonder which was the UK company they closed down. I've dealt with a few here in the UK and I'm note sure I could say one has gone smoothly.

I owned several dealerships in the UK in the past and know for a fact this was going on as far back as Apple ][ days. How do i know? Because other dealers explained to me how simple it was and were almost shocked I did not do this. My guess is quite a few do it to this day.

[John.B]

i hope those companies have some t-shirt designs ready cuz i think apple will sue them.

Best post of the day!

[jo0]

yikes.... its kinda sad that it took several years for apple to catch on... even though its pocket change to apple its just retarded.

[*LTD*]

The auto-industry had (has) the same problem - but it's even easier to confuse the consumer because in a car, often the warranty covers some parts of the car, but not others -- even when they use terms like "bumper to bumper" warranty.

A dealership may tell you that "this particular part isn't covered under warranty" and you'll have to pay for it. After you pay for the service, they go ahead and submit the repair to the manufacturer anyway -- thus double-dipping on the reimbursement.

To combat, many manufacturers now do a follow-up customer satisfaction phone call or survey, which tries to be very clear that they are following-up to find out how happy you were with your "free warranty repair" (at which point you reply "free? no... I paid for it.")

Excellent example.

[charlituna]

i hope those companies have some t-shirt designs ready cuz i think apple will sue them.

probably easier and less expensive to simply shut them down. take away their 'authorized' status and no longer provide them with free parts.

[Durendal]

A year ago, I spoke with another Apple Authorized Dealer and told them my story. The owner told me that it is in his agreement with Apple that he can -- and will / does -- charge a $30 fee for fixing Apple products that ARE covered under warranty. To me, this is not right.
That man is a lying piece of garbage. There is NO agreement for that. I work for an Apple service center as a Mac tech and I can tell you right now that he's been breaking the rules. Find out if he still does and report it to Apple. That's just disgusting to me. It is absolutely NOT permissible for a service center to charge the customer for ANYTHING that is covered by warranty. Period.

On the subject at hand, Apple treats service centers like crap, so I suppose this was bound to happen. Payment for warranty work isn't all that great and is based on certain metrics which can punish the provider for things that are absolutely not their fault. Also, the people down at Apple who design the enclosures and decide how everything fits together will have a special area of Hell reserved for them where they will be forced to disassemble and reassemble their abominations until the end of eternity. I swear that some Macs are designed as they are specifically to make the techs suffer. I can't think of any other reason that they would do so.

I love a lot of Apple products, but I hate Apple corporate. I think that would mirror the sentiment of every Apple tech out there.

[baryon]

I'm still baffled that Apple only offers one year of free warranty! For a computer! Damn... Even the lamest laptop you can buy that has no known brand has 2 years of warranty at least.

[brownieguy19]

You do realize that what you're talking about has absolutely nothing to do with the topic being discussed, right?

I'm glad to see Apple cracking down on this, as I would any other company being defrauded by idiots trying to make a quick buck.

jW

You do realize it has everything to do with the topic. Fraud. Although Best Buy might not be managing a warehouse of used Mac Parts and making money off of "in warranty" and "out of warranty" items.....they are making money off misleading consumers about the warranty their computer carries.

[Durendal]

Care to tell me what other upgrade options Apple gave me? OK, I'll tell you: buy a new Mac Pro. The only reason why 4870 is not supported on my Mac Pro is because Apple would rather have me pay for a new machine. Makes perfect sense, for Apple.
Your options are a Geforce 8800GT or Radeon 3870. Those are both officially compatible. If you installed a 4870 in your first gen Mac Pro, then don't cry when Apple doesn't fix it. Sure, it would be nice, but they said that it's not supported, so guess what? That means you're on your own if you decide to put it in there.

Or you could just use some third party hacks to run a PC card instead since you're going the unsupported route.

[lightpeak]

Huge surprise!!

Its a scam that a 5 year old could come up with. Practically every part inside these computers are serialized, why were they not cross checking the received defective part's serial against the one that left the factory?

Yet victims exist. Can't be that simplistic that it is "the sky is green and the grass is blue" ludicrous an idea. :rolleyes:

People obviously fell for it.

[mac 2005]

Who voted negative for this story? Do you own a facility that rips off Apple AND its customers?

[Diode]

The auto-industry had (has) the same problem - but it's even easier to confuse the consumer because in a car, often the warranty covers some parts of the car, but not others -- even when they use terms like "bumper to bumper" warranty.

A dealership may tell you that "this particular part isn't covered under warranty" and you'll have to pay for it. After you pay for the service, they go ahead and submit the repair to the manufacturer anyway -- thus double-dipping on the reimbursement.

To combat, many manufacturers now do a follow-up customer satisfaction phone call or survey, which tries to be very clear that they are following-up to find out how happy you were with your "free warranty repair" (at which point you reply "free? no... I paid for it.")

While not exactly warranty related, the whole "If you don't get a receipt then your meal is free" is to have the fast food companies combat the cashier from pocketing the money you paid for your food.

I find it interesting how companies figure out clever ways to fight fraud.

[Doctor Q]

Suggested public services by MacRumors

1. List of third party repair and upgrade shops by authorized or not. Ability to comment on service experience.

2. List of third party warranty services, especially that cover customer damage. IIRC they are the same or lower cost than Applecare.
If you'd like to hear what others think of your suggestion, you are welcome to start a thread in the Site and Forum Feedback forum.

[charlituna]

How about the scam Apple is running on owners of 2006-2207 Mac Pros in which Apple refuses to honor their warranty on ATI 4870 video cards purchased for those machines, simply because in its infinite wisdom Apple decided these cards are not compatible with those models of Mac Pro, even though the cards work just fine in them?

Apple legally has the right to determine what hardware they do and do not support. So the question becomes whether they were up front about the coverage of such cards in their machines. Did they provide a list of the cards they support and clearly state that use of anything else would void your warranty.

If so, then you and yours knew what you were getting into. If not, then you might have a case.

[akadmon]

Your options are a Geforce 8800GT or Radeon 3870. Those are both officially compatible. If you installed a 4870 in your first gen Mac Pro, then don't cry when Apple doesn't fix it. Sure, it would be nice, but they said that it's not supported, so guess what? That means you're on your own if you decide to put it in there.

Or you could just use some third party hacks to run a PC card instead since you're going the unsupported route.

Neither 3870 nor 8800GT are sold by Apple. They were discontinued while my MP was still under warranty. A 3 year old Pro desktop is not an obsolete computer, for Xsakes! Oh yeah, according to Apple it is:rolleyes: FYI, there are MPs out there purchased less than 2 years ago for which there are no video cards officially supported/sold by Apple. This sucks, not to mentioned it's fraud, given that these machines were sold as "the most upgradable Mac". Apple did not tell me that I will have as little as one year to upgrade my MP with a better video card.

I put the Apple branded 4870 in my MP because, contrary to Apple's misleading information, it does work perfectly fine in a 2006 MP. I intend to exercise my right to obtain warranty service on this card, should I ever need it, even if this means using another MP's serial number to obtain it.

Are we on topic now? Good.

[charlituna]

yikes.... its kinda sad that it took several years for apple to catch on... even though its pocket change to apple its just retarded.

who says it took several years for Apple to catch on. HardMac isn't exactly the most timely site. they have more than once posted things that have been on other sites for days and even weeks as if it was a hot news item. Perhaps Apple has known and have been shutting down locations for years, this is just the biggest sting and the one that got press. just like the guy earlier this year that was getting ipods for warranty replacements and then selling them.


On the subject at hand, Apple treats service centers like crap, so I suppose this was bound to happen. Payment for warranty work isn't all that great

yes but the centers knew what they were getting into when they signed the agreement to be 'authorized'. if they didn't like the deal they should have skipped it. they could still fix the machines and charge what they want, if customers are willing to go to them. and for out of warranty repairs it doesn't matter since there's no warranty to void anyway.

[billystlyes]

This is what happens when you sell overpriced gear and parts. Everyone gets greedy.

[Durendal]

Neither 3870 nor 8800GT are sold by Apple. They were discontinued while my MP was still under warranty. A 3 year old Pro desktop is not an obsolete computer, for Xsakes! Oh yeah, according to Apple it is:rolleyes: FYI, there are MPs out there purchased less than 2 years ago for which there are no video cards officially supported/sold by Apple. This sucks, not to mentioned it's fraud, given that these machines were sold as "the most upgradable Mac". Apple did not tell me that I will have as little as one year to upgrade my MP with a better video card.

I put the Apple branded 4870 in my MP because, contrary to Apple's misleading information, it does work perfectly fine in a 2006 MP. I intend to exercise my right to obtain warranty service on this card, should I ever need it, even if this means using another MP's serial number to obtain it.

Are we on topic now? Good.
First off, the 3870 is made to work in your Mac Pro and will not void any warranties. Ergo, it is irrelevant if Apple sells it or another vendor. It works and is officially supported by the vendor. Do you buy all of your RAM and hard drives directly from Apple, too?

And since when is a computer "obsolete" just because Apple doesn't make a particular upgrade supported for your model? Since when is it fraud when they don't make a particular upgrade part for your particular model? It isn't by ANY definition, legal or otherwise. Well, except for yours, but that doesn't fly anywhere else. Apple has no obligation whatsoever to make upgrades for your particular model. They never agreed to do so in any way, shape, or form. Your Mac Pro still functions and still works just fine. If it's still under Applecare and something breaks down then they will fix it. They are obligated to do so. If you bought the 4870 directly and not as an OEM part in another Mac, then your Mac Pro serial number is irrelevant. It's covered all by itself as long as you have a proof of purchase, which you likely do considering it would've been purchased from Apple. Serial numbers are only necessary for original parts, not separately purchased upgrades.

Boo hoo, Apple doesn't sell a video card upgrade for your Mac Pro. As it turns out, the 3870 doesn't appear to be on the market anymore. You know what that means? THERE IS NOT SUFFICIENT DEMAND. You can argue that Apple is just trying to drive sales, but when third party vendors stop selling something, it's because there aren't enough people buying. Simple as that.

[Unspeaked]

You do realize it has everything to do with the topic. Fraud. Although Best Buy might not be managing a warehouse of used Mac Parts and making money off of "in warranty" and "out of warranty" items.....they are making money off misleading consumers about the warranty their computer carries.

I don't think what you describe Best Buy doing is fraud. It's just retail.

I loathe Best Buy and would never even think of buying anything from them, but I do go into the stores sometimes to check out products. I know for a fact their iPod service plans are cheaper than Apple's (at least as of a year or two back when a relative picked one up) and I'd be surprised if their desktop/laptops plans were anymore. Yes, the service is probably much worth than AppleCare, but I can't really judge since I'm not familiar with it.

Plus, the kid trying to push their in-house plans is a minimum wage slave who probably gets a few bucks kick-back on any extended warranty he sells (and nothing on AppleCare) so give him a break.

The real tragedy in the scenario you describe is that anyone would go to Best Buy in the first place to buy a Mac. Once they decide that's who they want to give their money to (when they could have gotten the same price at an Apple Store or Apple.com) then any way the retailer takes advantage of them from then on is their own fault.

[Durendal]

yes but the centers knew what they were getting into when they signed the agreement to be 'authorized'. if they didn't like the deal they should have skipped it. they could still fix the machines and charge what they want, if customers are willing to go to them. and for out of warranty repairs it doesn't matter since there's no warranty to void anyway.
Yeah, but seeing it on paper and the reality of it are two different things. You can make money doing Apple service, but with all the bullcrap you have to wonder if it's worth it. Replace a power supply in a PCIe G5 tower or the power cable along the back of an aluminum iMac (which had a number of faulty units) and then wonder if Apple's payment is worth it. Yes, out of warranty is a very different thing. You can charge the customer and make additional money on part markup. That's a completely different ball of wax.

Not saying that I condone the behavior of these service centers, of course. It's just that when you put the wood to the guys who clean up your mess, some of the lesser elements are bound to start pulling this crap.

And on the subject of Best Buy, it's sadly the only place around here that really sells Macs. If a customer wants to buy one, I tell them which model to pick out depending on what they want and tell them not to listen to any of the sales monkeys. Get what you want and go. Geek Squad can eat crap. They should just stop trying to fix any Macs at all. I've done a lot of out of warranty repairs that BB tried and failed to fix. A LOT. It makes me sad that people even take in-warranty Macs there as they don't even fix them on site. They ship to some repair depot and the customer is without their Mac for weeks.

[xIGmanIx]

best buy and geek squad are not the same company, i believe they used to be but now i believe they are separate entities.

[rdowns]

best buy and geek squad are not the same company, i believe they used to be but now i believe they are separate entities.

Best Buy owns Geek Squad.

[SiriusExcelsior]

When I had to get my 2007 MacBook charger replaced back in May 2009, I called up the place where I bought it (a student-friendly Apple retailer) and they told me to call Apple and get a case number. I did that, and Apple said to call into an authorised service centre for them to take a look, and see if it can be replaced under warranty.

So I went to a certain Apple reseller/service centre here in Newmarket, Auckland, where a sales rep (who struck me as rather arrogant) decided, *after* he inspected the charger, that he needed to charge $60 for an inspection fee, despite it being Apple who told me to get it checked out (and provided me with a case number). Luckily I only had $20 on me, so just gave that to him, and while he was busy sorting other stuff out, I took my charger and left.

I later went back to the student-friendly outfit and got both the charger and my greying, cracking top case replaced for free. I also bought a second charger from them partly as a thank-you gift for being so nice. I have since boycotted the Newmarket store...

I work as a technician at a repair centre for another notebook manufacturer, and all spare parts for warranty repairs have to have their serial numbers noted and associated with the notebook's own serial number (and the old part sent back to have its serial checked). This is all noted on the notebook mfg's own database, which should make it harder to pull stunts like what's happening here with Apple...

[arkmannj]

Sad tha Apple should even have to worry about this kinda stuff, imagine the money they've spent investigating and lost money from bogus claims being put towards more innovation, etc.

[Erwin-Br]

I'm still baffled that Apple only offers one year of free warranty! For a computer! Damn... Even the lamest laptop you can buy that has no known brand has 2 years of warranty at least.

I know! I'd say it's only one year because Apple doesn't have much confidence in its own products. :p

What's also interesting is that most people in Europe don't know their Apple Care is pretty much useless, because retailers/manufacturers are required to repair or compensate for products that don't work as advertised, BY LAW. And I mean without buying a warranty or protection plan! For computers it's 3 years. In some countries 2 years. This is why I've never bought Apple Care. A friend of mine got his Macbook repaired free of charge after 2/5 years, without Apple Care. Consumer rights are very well defined and governed by the ECC (European Consumer Centres Network) and Consumer Affairs.

[DanielSw]

I'm not trying to defend these service centers or say that they aren't doing anything wrong, but I bet Apple wouldn't have these problems if they didn't make it so hard for these companies to make any money. Apple makes huge margins on their computers, but only lets Authorized Resellers make around 10% on each.

Hey, quit this stupid "logic" of offering lame excuses for criminal behavior.

[JoeG4]

Perhaps a big part of the reason the Apple store has lower repair #s than the providers do is Apple is stringent about fixing people's machines..

*walks into an Apple store complaining about dead pixels on his Cinema Display*

"ugh sir. The fart sensor in here suggests you farted within the vicinity of this Apple product. Apple customers do not fart, thus our warranty is void if you farted. Did you fart sir?"

"Uh.. I dunno.. hopefully not"

"Let me see your iPhone"

"I don't have one"

"Whoa.. AND NO TIGHT JEANS EITHER! SECURRRITTYY!!!!!."

[jo0]

"Let me see your iPhone"

"I don't have one"

"Whoa.. AND NO TIGHT JEANS EITHER! SECURRRITTYY!!!!!."

i dont understand this stereotype at all.....:D

[Ryano AU]

I'm sure other people know about this happening.

Dunno if my post will raise any alarms, but the MacOne chain in Australia is doing the same thing.

I tried to claim on my warranty, and they told me I couldn't - why? They'd already claimed on my parts, and were being dodgy! Had to sort out the garbage with the apple hotline, and haven't gone back there since.

[scottness]

I'm not trying to defend these service centers or say that they aren't doing anything wrong, but I bet Apple wouldn't have these problems if they didn't make it so hard for these companies to make any money. Apple makes huge margins on their computers, but only lets Authorized Resellers make around 10% on each.

The reseller know this going in. I wouldn't blame Apple for a reseller's potentially bad choice. I'd say they still make enough money anyway. Obviously there continue to be resellers that continue to business this way for years. (they make their money off accessories, anyway)

[skeep5]

i hope those companies have some t-shirt designs ready cuz i think apple will sue them.

awesome

[heisetax]

I should have had only 1 experience with Apple in-store repair, but as they replaced the wrong part, a part that was added after I purchased the Intel Mac Pro. This part was purchased used from another Intel Mac Pro User that did not want to wait for the ATI X1900 board to ship. I had video artifact problems & others that kept OS 10.5 from properly installing. After Apple replaced the noncovered fully functioning video card I still had a covered ATI X190 that was malfuncioning big time. Apple then overnighted the correct card to a third party repair company. That company then sent a repair person out to my home office.

So with this cind of repair work done by Apple, how can they tell what is necessary by them or by the many third party repair companies that cover for their errors plus do work of their own. This problem could even be bigger than they think it is, that is if it is really there.

[Rocketman]

Will Apple simply cut off their business or will normally secretive Apple work with law enforcement so the perpetrators can be prosecuted?

I wish they would work with police to find stolen serialized computers first and leave these dealers alone who entered into a SEPARATE contract with their customer from the one the customer has with Apple.

The computers report home to Apple all the time. Start with mine!

Rocketman

[jlauve]

Suggested public services by MacRumors:

1. List of third party repair and upgrade shops by authorized or not. Ability to comment on service experience.

2. List of third party warranty services, especially that cover customer damage. IIRC they are the same or lower cost than Applecare.

Rocketman has a great idea here.
How 'bout it MacRumors?

[fun173]

Rocketman

Suggested public services by MacRumors

1. List of third party repair and upgrade shops by authorized or not. Ability to comment on service experience.

2. List of third party warranty services, especially that cover customer damage. IIRC they are the same or lower cost than Applecare.


This is a great idea. I think it would be very useful

[heisetax]

Seriously? You're angry because they didn't give you something they didn't promise? Upgrades, of any type, are never guaranteed. Deal with it.

jW

Apple doesn't support anything that they did not sell to you. So if the ATI 4870 did not come with your machine as my 2 3870s that I have in my 1st gen Intel Mac Pro then there is no support from Apple. Actually buy a new Mac without Apple Care & Apple will only supply 90 days of no prepaid charges for warranty work. This is with a 1 year warranty. So I have come not to expect any Apple support wven on products they they claim to support.

It took a year before Apple would replace an ATI x1900 video card that was shown to be bad before I tried talking to them. Then they replace the wrong card that was not covered by warranty. It took me a year before I felt safe that Apple would not charge me for the video card.

Support with Apple is a joke anyway so how could anyone ever expect them to do any help for something that did not come with your computer. If you want a decent choice of video cards in a reasonable time after the manufacturer ships them, then a Mac is not for you. If you want to run OS X then make yourself a Frankentosh & have the best of both worlds. Choice means non-Mac.

[Rocketman]

New thread started at moderator request to collect feedback.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=842348

Rocketman

[BrotherCrack]

Huge surprise!!

Its a scam that a 5 year old could come up with. Practically every part inside these computers are serialized, why were they not cross checking the received defective part's serial against the one that left the factory?

Sometimes, when a machine has multiple repairs, technicians forget to put the sticker with the new serial number on the board, so many cases of this happen, even I have forgotten to put it on machines I worked. And not all parts have serial numbers, it will vary on the model. Also many times so many volumes of repairs received in GSX that it's very hard to track case by case even when technicians do put the serials correctly. Also, there are disc to change the serial number in the hardware. There are many ways to bypass this. These scams aren't anything new. I have seen them going on for years. I have quit from service centers that do this, for the exact reason that I won't put my certifications on the line for these scumbags to make more money.

Why don't Apple just do out of warranty service themselves?

I'd be happier going via them to be honest.

Some places apple just doesn't have service centers or apple stores. Like in Latin America they work exclusively with authorized service centers to bring better quality. The system is not even GSX in Latin America, it's ALAC and Im sure it varies in other regions as well.They realize that most people don't like the concept of shipping their computer. People still like to have someone in person to handle their machines. This is also why apple has high ratings in customer service vs. HP that tells you to ship the computer to some place to get fixed.

Care to tell me what other upgrade options Apple gave me? OK, I'll tell you: buy a new Mac Pro. The only reason why 4870 is not supported on my Mac Pro is because Apple would rather have me pay for a new machine. Makes perfect sense, for Apple.

You'd be surprised and how many times I told myself the exact same thing then find out through escalation why apple decided on XYZ not being supported or covered in a machine that by all logic is IDENTICAL and SHOULD accept that card/device/upgrade/amount of memory, you name it. I cannot give you a specific reason for your 4870 to not be supported, but I can tell you in my experience these things that I always see as stupid when I investigate end up having an incredibly GOOD reason to not be supported. Sometimes I have seen it's as simple as a specific board having a TINY change in a chipset, or in a power supply that is able to handle the voltage from one model to another. Making it unstable or simply causing the slight difference in design to completely fry your hardware.

[Rocketman]

Apple doesn't support anything that they did not sell to you.
Okay, but how about they also do not remove and dispose of it for you without consent. That happened to me on MacMall installed RAM, and they are authorized apple service techs.

Kensington RAM IIRC.

Rocketman

[MorphingDragon]

I'm still baffled that Apple only offers one year of free warranty! For a computer! Damn... Even the lamest laptop you can buy that has no known brand has 2 years of warranty at least.

In America maybe...

[ChrisA]

.... Hell, Apple should pick up the computer from my house via FedEx Next Day Air, fix it, and ship it back for some of these price premiums....!

When we buy computers from Sun and they fail, Sun sends the tech on-site to repair it. Even Dell can send out on-site techs.

Apple is right there with e-machines and arcer making you take the computer to them.

[Kar98]

Surprise! "Third party centers" are in it for the $$$ and they screw over both the consumer and the companies that outsource to them. And their employees. Oh, and the communities where they're located.

[sinsin07]

When we buy computers from Sun and they fail, Sun sends the tech on-site to repair it. Even Dell can send out on-site techs.

Apple is right there with e-machines and arcer making you take the computer to them.

That's good, but what's better is having in house on site 24/7 support like major corps do. We have in house Sun, HP and Dell.

[VicMacs]

Neither 3870 nor 8800GT are sold by Apple. They were discontinued while my MP was still under warranty.

part no. 661-4642 is for the 8800GT and it is still sold by apple, you can get it at any AASP or Authorized Dealer, like mine. 90 days warranty as its a part and not an actual product now that there are newer models out there. Kinda unfair but they do sell it.

As for the topic, good to see Apple coming down on its rotten Apples. I for one can sleep carelessly as my Apple business is thriving due to pure hard work and honesty. We give the best service in our country and we repair the most macs in our country and I guess Apple is very happy with us. We keep Apple customers happy!

[VicMacs]

Yeah, but seeing it on paper and the reality of it are two different things. You can make money doing Apple service, but with all the bullcrap you have to wonder if it's worth it. Replace a power supply in a PCIe G5 tower or the power cable along the back of an aluminum iMac (which had a number of faulty units) and then wonder if Apple's payment is worth it. Yes, out of warranty is a very different thing. You can charge the customer and make additional money on part markup. That's a completely different ball of wax.

Not saying that I condone the behavior of these service centers, of course. It's just that when you put the wood to the guys who clean up your mess, some of the lesser elements are bound to start pulling this crap.

And on the subject of Best Buy, it's sadly the only place around here that really sells Macs. If a customer wants to buy one, I tell them which model to pick out depending on what they want and tell them not to listen to any of the sales monkeys. Get what you want and go. Geek Squad can eat crap. They should just stop trying to fix any Macs at all. I've done a lot of out of warranty repairs that BB tried and failed to fix. A LOT. It makes me sad that people even take in-warranty Macs there as they don't even fix them on site. They ship to some repair depot and the customer is without their Mac for weeks.

Those frickin' cables at the very end of the 20-inch iMac are a pain in the a** I totally hear ya!

[Durendal]

Apple doesn't support anything that they did not sell to you. So if the ATI 4870 did not come with your machine as my 2 3870s that I have in my 1st gen Intel Mac Pro then there is no support from Apple. Actually buy a new Mac without Apple Care & Apple will only supply 90 days of no prepaid charges for warranty work. This is with a 1 year warranty. So I have come not to expect any Apple support wven on products they they claim to support.
This is such outright bullcrap. Apple WILL warranty any of their products that you purchase retail for one year. Buy a 4870 and Apple will cover it for a year as it's an official Apple part. Period. The 3870s are NOT Apple products. They are from ATI and sold third party, even if Apple sold them through their store. Ergo, the warranty is through ATI, not Apple. It won't void your warranty to use them, but if one goes bad, it's not Apple's problem.

In addition, your remarks about Macs and Applecare is an outright LIE. You get 90 days of free phone support if you don't buy Applecare. You get ZERO CHARGES FOR WARRANTY WORK within that year period, end of story. If you were charged then whatever shop you went to swindled you badly and should lose their Apple service contract. You have this very, very bass-ackwards.
It took a year before Apple would replace an ATI x1900 video card that was shown to be bad before I tried talking to them. Then they replace the wrong card that was not covered by warranty. It took me a year before I felt safe that Apple would not charge me for the video card.
And did you happen to tell them that the card they replaced was not the one that shipped with the Mac Pro? If your Pro was a CTO then it may not show all the parts that came with it. Ergo, the techs see a video card and replace it if it's malfunctioning regardless of which model because they don't know what the machine originally shipped with.
Support with Apple is a joke anyway so how could anyone ever expect them to do any help for something that did not come with your computer. If you want a decent choice of video cards in a reasonable time after the manufacturer ships them, then a Mac is not for you. If you want to run OS X then make yourself a Frankentosh & have the best of both worlds. Choice means non-Mac.
Support with Apple is not a joke. Support with Apple consistently ranks as the best in the industry. How could anyone expect any ******** company to help you with third party parts or peripherals? It's not their job! Also, if you want third party video cards, no need to make a Hackintosh. You can use some hacks to make a number of generic PC cards work in a Mac Pro.

[Durendal]

Sometimes, when a machine has multiple repairs, technicians forget to put the sticker with the new serial number on the board, so many cases of this happen, even I have forgotten to put it on machines I worked. And not all parts have serial numbers, it will vary on the model. Also many times so many volumes of repairs received in GSX that it's very hard to track case by case even when technicians do put the serials correctly. Also, there are disc to change the serial number in the hardware. There are many ways to bypass this. These scams aren't anything new. I have seen them going on for years. I have quit from service centers that do this, for the exact reason that I won't put my certifications on the line for these scumbags to make more money.
You really don't know what you're talking about. There is no sticker with a new serial number. The only thing close is a sticker with the new MAC address when you replace a logic board. The serializer disc you mentioned is for logic boards only and will only work on brand new boards from Apple that are not already serialized. You CANNOT change the serial number of a computer once it's been burned in. In addition, that doesn't matter because every part that's serialized has an individual serial number stickered onto it, including the logic board, which has a serial sticker that differs from the computer serial number that you burn into the logic board. Apple also keeps records of these serial numbers now, especially in the case of parts that have already been replaced.

[Durendal]

part no. 661-4642 is for the 8800GT and it is still sold by apple, you can get it at any AASP or Authorized Dealer, like mine. 90 days warranty as its a part and not an actual product now that there are newer models out there. Kinda unfair but they do sell it.
And it's about $400 at bare cost. If the shop marks it up, then you pay even more. It's really not feasible for most. Ebay would be a better bet.

[Durendal]

When we buy computers from Sun and they fail, Sun sends the tech on-site to repair it. Even Dell can send out on-site techs.

Apple is right there with e-machines and arcer making you take the computer to them.
Some Macs come with an onsite warranty.

[Durendal]

Surprise! "Third party centers" are in it for the $$$ and they screw over both the consumer and the companies that outsource to them. And their employees. Oh, and the communities where they're located.
I work for one of those "third party centers". We work our butts off to provide good, honest service to people. If you had a bad experience or two, then that stinks, but that doesn't mean that all service centers pull constant screw jobs, so you can stop the idiotic, dickheaded generalizations. I'd much rather be working there than an Apple Store where you have to put up with all the corporate crapola.

[akadmon]

If you bought the 4870 directly and not as an OEM part in another Mac, then your Mac Pro serial number is irrelevant. It's covered all by itself as long as you have a proof of purchase, which you likely do considering it would've been purchased from Apple. Serial numbers are only necessary for original parts, not separately purchased upgrades.


There is a recent case on this very forum of a guy to whom Apple denied a replacement 4870 on the grounds that he was using it in an unsupported Mac Pro. So much for your little theory :rolleyes:

[Durendal]

There is a recent case on this very forum of a guy to whom Apple denied a replacement 4870 on the grounds that he was using it in an unsupported Mac Pro. So much for your little theory :rolleyes:
Then he must've outright told them (or brought in the whole Mac Pro) and the support rep was a jerk. I work for a local service provider, so it's not a "theory", pal. Separately purchased parts like a 4870 upgrade kit do NOT require a serial number from any Mac. I have that straight from Apple's Service Provider Support. If you brought that card in, said it was failing, and provided a proof-of-purchase, it would be replaced, although the shop may request that you bring it in the Mac Pro for diagnosis. It honestly depends on how the techs want to do things. If you tell them it was put in a first-gen Mac Pro, then the shop may or may not deny coverage, but that's not something you have to tell them, now is it? In addition, you might even be able to RMA it directly back to Apple with no middleman, but I'm not entirely certain if they'd just do it or have you take it to a shop. And if they do deny coverage, then it was because you did something that they specifically said was not supported, and if you do something that is specifically not supported, don't cry when they don't cover it under warranty.

[MorphingDragon]

There is a recent case on this very forum of a guy to whom Apple denied a replacement 4870 on the grounds that he was using it in an unsupported Mac Pro. So much for your little theory :rolleyes:

Actually, its like that in the PC world as well.

Workstation boards do not support all cards. Like my sisters one wont take 4XXX/5XXX or GT2XX for some reason.

[macffooky]

My daughter broke my MBP screen a year ago and I had it replaced at an ASP in N.London.

The first screen was of abysmal quality and somehow they gave me back my MBP with a top panel from an earlier model with different keyboard layout and no 3-finger swipe. They flatly denied having done this but Apple were great and sorted the whole thing out for me themselves at Regent Street.

[baryon]

I know! I'd say it's only one year because Apple doesn't have much confidence in its own products. :p

What's also interesting is that most people in Europe don't know their Apple Care is pretty much useless, because retailers/manufacturers are required to repair or compensate for products that don't work as advertised, BY LAW. And I mean without buying a warranty or protection plan! For computers it's 3 years. In some countries 2 years. This is why I've never bought Apple Care. A friend of mine got his Macbook repaired free of charge after 2/5 years, without Apple Care. Consumer rights are very well defined and governed by the ECC (European Consumer Centres Network) and Consumer Affairs.

I didn't know that :D Good thing I didn't buy Apple Care then... I am in the UK :D

[angryshortguy]

I don't see this as front page news... it's not like it is common only to Apple.
really?
And yet you've taken the time to read this article and then to actually comment on it.
It's an interesting article. What's the problem?

[akutad]

I think this is more common than most people think. I used to work for a home appliance centre and the owner did the same thing to companies like LG, Wirlpool, Frigidaire, etc.. Needless to say I do not work for him anymore.

[ChazUK]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 1.6; en-us; Archos5 Build/Donut) AppleWebKit/528.5+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.2 Mobile Safari/525.20.1)

Wow! What *****!

I hope Apple come down hard on these scamming tossers.

[VicMacs]

And it's about $400 at bare cost. If the shop marks it up, then you pay even more. It's really not feasible for most. Ebay would be a better bet.

245 actually, I sell it for around 299, ebay is a lottery...

[VicMacs]

You really don't know what you're talking about. There is no sticker with a new serial number. The only thing close is a sticker with the new MAC address when you replace a logic board. The serializer disc you mentioned is for logic boards only and will only work on brand new boards from Apple that are not already serialized. You CANNOT change the serial number of a computer once it's been burned in. In addition, that doesn't matter because every part that's serialized has an individual serial number stickered onto it, including the logic board, which has a serial sticker that differs from the computer serial number that you burn into the logic board. Apple also keeps records of these serial numbers now, especially in the case of parts that have already been replaced.

this is true, you cant erase a board serial number, unless you're Apple, and if you didnt move the sticker with the machine's serial no. then youre a lousy tech....

[theBB]

What's also interesting is that most people in Europe don't know their Apple Care is pretty much useless, because retailers/manufacturers are required to repair or compensate for products that don't work as advertised, BY LAW. And I mean without buying a warranty or protection plan! For computers it's 3 years. In some countries 2 years. This is why I've never bought Apple Care. A friend of mine got his Macbook repaired free of charge after 2/5 years, without Apple Care. Consumer rights are very well defined and governed by the ECC (European Consumer Centres Network) and Consumer Affairs.
If what you say is true, that means they just add the cost of a 3 year warranty into the sale price already. Of course, it does not stop most people from complaining that the prices are so much higher in Europe and that this somehow is so unfair. As a consumer, it seems you just lost your right to purchase an item with just one year warranty at a lower price. Whether that is desirable is open to debate. Maybe it is good for the society overall, as availability of "free" repairs (even though you are actually paying for them in the beginning) probably leads consumers to hold on to their computers longer, reducing waste. On the other hand, you can also view that as a bunch of know-it-alls making a decision for you.

[Durendal]

this is true, you cant erase a board serial number, unless you're Apple, and if you didnt move the sticker with the machine's serial no. then youre a lousy tech....
The only time you'd need to move that sticker is when replacing a top case on a Macbook or Macbook Pro or, for whatever odd reason, the bottom case of one of the new unibodies, foot of an iMac, etc. The only sticker involved in a new logic board is the MAC address sticker. I always move the proper stickers, but about the only time I ever need to is Macbook top cases. MBP top cases are much fewer and far between.

[Durendal]

245 actually, I sell it for around 299, ebay is a lottery...
If you're buying it direct from Apple through the service site then the stock price is $399. Unless a particular shop got one cheaper through a third party, it's going to cost a bundle to get one brand new.

[weckart]

Apple makes huge margins on their computers, but only lets Authorized Resellers make around 10% on each.

Try 7% (and less on some products), and you will realise why some third party resellers just don't bother any more.

I know! I'd say it's only one year because Apple doesn't have much confidence in its own products. :p

What's also interesting is that most people in Europe don't know their Apple Care is pretty much useless, because retailers/manufacturers are required to repair or compensate for products that don't work as advertised, BY LAW. And I mean without buying a warranty or protection plan! For computers it's 3 years. In some countries 2 years. This is why I've never bought Apple Care. A friend of mine got his Macbook repaired free of charge after 2/5 years, without Apple Care. Consumer rights are very well defined and governed by the ECC (European Consumer Centres Network) and Consumer Affairs.

Hmm. If you mean consumer protection laws, then the EC only provides a minimum period of two years in which to raise a complaint with the retailer. That in itself is not the same as a guarantee.

Furthermore, as you note in your comment, this varies in length from legislature to legislature. For example, 6 years in England and Wales, 5 years in Scotland. The level of protection also depends on circumstances, but is typically much less than an outright warranty. Particularly on the length of time deemed "reasonable" for the lifetime of a product, on which most, if not all, legislatures are suitably vague.

However, this does not obviate manufacturer's warranties, since in England and Wales, for instance, the onus is on the purchaser after six months to prove that the fault was inherent in the product at the time of purchase. Good luck with that.

It is not enough to state that you want a free repair or replacement because the goods no longer work as advertised if any fault can be ascribed to wear and tear or misuse of the product.

[rikesh]

...you wont be getting a PC with the build quality that you get in a Mac.

I buy Apple care with my laptops and I've had to send two in for repairs before.

These two statements contradict.

[island]

Who voted negative for this story? Do you own a facility that rips off Apple AND its customers?

:p

[BrotherCrack]

You really don't know what you're talking about. There is no sticker with a new serial number. The only thing close is a sticker with the new MAC address when you replace a logic board. The serializer disc you mentioned is for logic boards only and will only work on brand new boards from Apple that are not already serialized. You CANNOT change the serial number of a computer once it's been burned in. In addition, that doesn't matter because every part that's serialized has an individual serial number stickered onto it, including the logic board, which has a serial sticker that differs from the computer serial number that you burn into the logic board. Apple also keeps records of these serial numbers now, especially in the case of parts that have already been replaced.

The machine itself no, logic boards yes, and like I have said there are methods to do this, I have seen when you wanna do fraud there is a way. I'm not gonna explain how this is done in a forum. And like I also mentioned, by regions things work differently. Logic Boards sent here come with stickers with the new serial numbers, ipod's under warranty bring a sticker, most replacement parts bring stickers with new serial numbers. In most cases the sticker has to go in the broken part, since it has barcodes to scan the new serial into the system once apple receives it. In other cases apple give you 2 stickers (like in logic board cases), one for the new board and one for the old board. ALAC which is the system used in Latin America is easier to commit fraud in than say GSX which is what they use in the U.S. And I will admit that GSX, I have never worked with and many parts and things are different that we in Latin America can see but do not have access to. You say I don't know what Im talking about, well, you are entitled to your opinion the facts are quite different.

[bigpics]

Indeed. You will find this in any major company, sometimes not in the light if money either, e.g. One if the big three auto America auto dealers, if not all, creating parts that break in 2-3 years or, another example, Evette get your car fixed then 6 month later, if not sooner, something else breaks. Coincidece. Hardly. That's why rightvafter the manufacture warranty is over, things start falling apart. They CAN make these parts last ten years but don't.

One thing I like about apple, except the older mice aneld iPhone cables, is that for the most part, they can last 6+ years if not moved all the time.

Peace.I take it you also own one of those secret fuel devices that makes cars get 100 mpg, which the car companies could have done since the 1940's but have deliberately held off the market. I've been hearing this one for 50 years.

No neck populist accusations of conspiracies with zero data =/= proof.

With the (once)Big Three consistently losing market share to more reliable Asian cars for decades, I'm sure manufacturing (and continuing to manufacture) crappy parts would be a sound business strategy for them.

There are many reasons why Detroit's made lousy cars (not only failing to improve in some multi-year periods, but actually going backwards in others), and whether an attitude of planned obsolescence from decades ago contributed to their failing business plans, the fact is the sum of them is that these factors have left them unable to compete on quality of construction and durability.

Not usually a flamer, but old and rotten chestnuts like this get my goat 'cos they get repeated and some actually believe them.

So get a life. Or a brain. I assume you already have a heart.

Or, if you have something beyond six anecdotes of coincidence, bring on the data.

[gnasher729]

I didn't know that :D Good thing I didn't buy Apple Care then... I am in the UK :D

As others said already, after more than six months _you_ have to prove that the defect was there when you bought the computer. Good luck.

[doctor-don]

That man is a lying piece of garbage. There is NO agreement for that. I work for an Apple service center as a Mac tech and I can tell you right now that he's been breaking the rules. Find out if he still does and report it to Apple. That's just disgusting to me. It is absolutely NOT permissible for a service center to charge the customer for ANYTHING that is covered by warranty. Period.

On the subject at hand, Apple treats service centers like crap, so I suppose this was bound to happen. Payment for warranty work isn't all that great and is based on certain metrics which can punish the provider for things that are absolutely not their fault. Also, the people down at Apple who design the enclosures and decide how everything fits together will have a special area of Hell reserved for them where they will be forced to disassemble and reassemble their abominations until the end of eternity. I swear that some Macs are designed as they are specifically to make the techs suffer. I can't think of any other reason that they would do so.

I love a lot of Apple products, but I hate Apple corporate. I think that would mirror the sentiment of every Apple tech out there.

It SHOULD be just as easy for technical users to disassemble/reassemble our machines when upgrades/repairs are required. A nonfunctioning PBG4 that was diagnosed at a CompUSA Apple authorized facility was replaced since the cost of the items to be replaced was almost the same as a new PBG4. Apple had postponed having it accurately diagnosed ("Try this, try that") until it was past its warranty period. Luckily, it was paid for with VISA which extended the warranty. Otherwise, I could not have afforded to replace it. CompUSA is now gone from the scene and we have been fortunate not to have needed any further repairs.

The same comments about product design apply to auto repair/service. My car was designed by an idiot - I can replace half of the spark plugs. The back side of the engine is inaccessible unless I remove either the hood or the firewall or use a dealer's lift to access the plugs from underneath.

It is nice to see that Apple is doing something about repair centers which are double-dipping. However, due to the nature of the beast, greed will cause people to plan other ways to rep off the customer as well as Apple et al.

[California]

Apple is just making the third party guys post the serial numbers of the parts they are replacing. That's smart.

As a customer, I like third party Apple techs. Why?

Oh, because they are about twenty times smarter about Apple products than the Genius Bar people.

But I have dropped a bomb load of money on third party repairs as well.

I remember that iMac g3 "ram scam" too. Remember paying like TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS for another third party place to put in one 512mb chip into an iMac G3... thirty dollars or so for the "installation"...

if you ever have changed ram on an iMac g3, you will know what a rip off this is... Paid 175 for the ram chip back in the day and 30 for the install. I think they wanted more installation fees to take out the stock chips or something.

I never do anything on my under warranty Macs unless I call Apple first.

Keeps everyone honest.

[Durendal]

The machine itself no, logic boards yes, and like I have said there are methods to do this, I have seen when you wanna do fraud there is a way. I'm not gonna explain how this is done in a forum. And like I also mentioned, by regions things work differently. Logic Boards sent here come with stickers with the new serial numbers, ipod's under warranty bring a sticker, most replacement parts bring stickers with new serial numbers. In most cases the sticker has to go in the broken part, since it has barcodes to scan the new serial into the system once apple receives it. In other cases apple give you 2 stickers (like in logic board cases), one for the new board and one for the old board. ALAC which is the system used in Latin America is easier to commit fraud in than say GSX which is what they use in the U.S. And I will admit that GSX, I have never worked with and many parts and things are different that we in Latin America can see but do not have access to. You say I don't know what Im talking about, well, you are entitled to your opinion the facts are quite different.
Ah, sorry. I didn't realize that things would be that different in other regions. It just seems very odd that they would do it that way. It doesn't make sense for the tech to slap stickers on everything when they can just send everything with the sticker already on it. Maybe it's something about screwball regulations in other countries, although I'm at a loss as to what those would be. Weird. Everything in GSX comes with the stickers attached and you simply record the old and new serial numbers. As for the logic boards, I can't imagine any way to reflash the serial without someone leaking Apple's ROM software, or maybe even specs on the hardware that uses the diagnostic port on some motherboards. It would definitely take some doing.

[BrotherCrack]

Ah, sorry. I didn't realize that things would be that different in other regions. It just seems very odd that they would do it that way. It doesn't make sense for the tech to slap stickers on everything when they can just send everything with the sticker already on it. Maybe it's something about screwball regulations in other countries, although I'm at a loss as to what those would be. Weird. Everything in GSX comes with the stickers attached and you simply record the old and new serial numbers. As for the logic boards, I can't imagine any way to reflash the serial without someone leaking Apple's ROM software, or maybe even specs on the hardware that uses the diagnostic port on some motherboards. It would definitely take some doing.

No apologies needed. It's only logical to question something that by your experience is wrong. We have been told by apple that ALAC will start with new procedures and that they will have the stickers attached. Which is a Godsend because having to take a logic board put the stickers, one for the serial and one for the NIC's MAC address then put a sticker with the replacement serial on the old one it becomes a pain.

I believe that one of the biggest issues is exactly that, the difference of the systems they use by region. In this past year they have improved ALAC considerably making it a bit harder to commit fraud, but it's still very easy to do in ALAC. GSX I have no experience, I can log in but I cannot use anything except the field to check a serial number for warranty status, so it leave us like :confused:. But from what I can see it would not be as easy to commit fraud in GSX as it is in ALAC, then again I could be mistaken. But if there's such a HUGE difference between the systems in US and Latin America, imagine Europe and Asia. Such disparity I believe is a huge issue.

[khunsanook]

I would not be surprised at all if a few of the "far east" repair centers were here in Thailand. I've never had anything but shady and poor service from any "authorized" Thai Apple service providers. Even the Mac shop I bought my computer from tried to partially charge me for a (warranty) SuperDrive repair 4 months later. It wasn't until I took the matter to Apple that they backed off of the charge.

[hellish]

I know of a case of this in the UK, what apple actually did was say either the MD leaves the company or we take the companies certs/reseller status away... the MD left, the company still employees people and continues to exist.

Durendal
We work our butts off to provide good, honest service to people. If you had a bad experience or two, then that stinks, but that doesn't mean that all service centers pull constant screw jobs, so you can stop the idiotic, dickheaded generalizations. I'd much rather be working there than an Apple Store where you have to put up with all the corporate crapola.

Amen.

[teamturbo]

this is EXACTLY what happened to me. I reported warranty fraud to Apple after a 3rd party service center tried to scam me. Apple took this extremely seriously when I called their corporate office in TX.


My original post on an authorized retailer trying to scam me. Interesting read!!!

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=690422

[Durendal]

this is EXACTLY what happened to me. I reported warranty fraud to Apple after a 3rd party service center tried to scam me. Apple took this extremely seriously when I called their corporate office in TX.


My original post on an authorized retailer trying to scam me. Interesting read!!!

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=690422
Interesting. I've heard stories of a Macxprts shop in Post Falls, ID telling people that nothing is wrong with their Macs and charging them a $100 diagnostic. Then the people take the Mac somewhere else and get it fixed properly. I've also heard stories of the manager of said shop completely slandering a guy who used to own a Mac shop in the area. I can't definitively confirm those, but I've heard enough to make me wonder.

Also, unless there was some pretty freaking obvious liquid damage, they can't deny it like they did. If the LSIs aren't tripped then they need to be able to show clear liquid damage. Apple Stores will take photos. None of this "Well, it COULD be" *********. That just pisses me off. It is or it isn't. If there isn't compelling evidence, assume that it isn't and replace parts as necessary.

[doctor-don]

Okay, but how about they also do not remove and dispose of it for you without consent. That happened to me on MacMall installed RAM, and they are authorized apple service techs.

Kensington RAM IIRC.

Rocketman

Are you seriously blaming Apple for what some tech did with your property?

[cg0def]

I know one third-party company that should come under Apple scrutiny. They are (mostly) a bunch of crooks and liars!

I know of another one :) It's a slightly different scam where they would tell the customer that the warranty is not valid if the computer was not purchased in the country ( which ofc is total crap ) and then ask the customer to pay for the repairs while still getting the parts for free. And since it is a quite large center most people do end up paying. The scam is a bit more elaborate that that. They ask you to show some stupid made up warranty card ( not apple approved ofc ) and since you cannot do that they tell you that you have to pay. I had problems with my screen while I was visiting some friends there and to my huge surprise my friends said this was normal. I waited until I got home and got the repairs done at an Apple Store but I wonder if there is anything that Apple can do about this crap and how would one go about reporting it …

[alphaod]

I hope the facility that repaired my computer didn't defraud Apple… because if they did, I'm going to ask for a refund. :o

Plus my computer is falling apart again as a result of the repair, so I might ask them to fix it again.

I know! I'd say it's only one year because Apple doesn't have much confidence in its own products. :p

What's also interesting is that most people in Europe don't know their Apple Care is pretty much useless, because retailers/manufacturers are required to repair or compensate for products that don't work as advertised, BY LAW. And I mean without buying a warranty or protection plan! For computers it's 3 years. In some countries 2 years. This is why I've never bought Apple Care. A friend of mine got his Macbook repaired free of charge after 2/5 years, without Apple Care. Consumer rights are very well defined and governed by the ECC (European Consumer Centres Network) and Consumer Affairs.

AppleCare isn't entirely useless, because after the first 90 days, without AppleCare, you won't technical support over the phone… and after the first year, you may not be able to get repairs outside the jurisdiction of the laws pertaining to the ECC… which pretty much means when you're traveling. Of course I'm not sure about this last one, but it would be a reasonable thing to assume because that's what I would do if I were Apple.

[jmbill]

Not surprised to hear this practice is going on in the UK. Some resellers / authorised repair centres offer a fantastic service. Others are complete rogues out to make a quick buck, with no regard for customer service.

I refuse to use our local authorised service centre because they either LIE about the repairs they have done, or send stuff away for 3 weeks and then decide there's nothing wrong with it -- when evidently the machine wont turn on. Or they claim they have an "inventory dispute" with Apple and refuse the exchange of smaller items like keyboards or mice.

Instead I use a Apple store about 60 miles away. Never had any problems dealing with Apple directly and always found staff to be very friendly and knowledgeable. Turnaround for repairs is normally only 2-3 days.

[Durendal]

I know of another one :) It's a slightly different scam where they would tell the customer that the warranty is not valid if the computer was not purchased in the country ( which ofc is total crap ) and then ask the customer to pay for the repairs while still getting the parts for free. And since it is a quite large center most people do end up paying. The scam is a bit more elaborate that that. They ask you to show some stupid made up warranty card ( not apple approved ofc ) and since you cannot do that they tell you that you have to pay. I had problems with my screen while I was visiting some friends there and to my huge surprise my friends said this was normal. I waited until I got home and got the repairs done at an Apple Store but I wonder if there is anything that Apple can do about this crap and how would one go about reporting it …
Call Apple and let them know. The guys on the support line should be able to transfer you to the appropriate department. If so, Apple will look into it, perhaps by sending in someone to get scammed. The store might just get their Apple service revoked, which would serve them right.

[kybos]

I'm glad they're taking steps to prevent abuse by authorized resellers.

I've had problems with MacOnline here in Argentina. They tried to charge me for a repair under warranty. After arguing with them for a week, and after telling them I would complain directly to Apple, they accepted to give me my laptop back, fixed, at no additional cost.

Another friend of mine had a similar problem. He had a white MacBook, with a broken plastic surface. This problem was recognized by Apple a while ago, and should be fixed at no cost. MacOnline tried to charge him. He went to another reseller and they accepted to fix it at no cost.

Is there any way to raise these complaints effectively with Apple (appart from making international calls)?

[gerardrj]

There are some justifications for these "frauds" service providers commit.
Against customers is never acceptable, but Apple's rules make it hard for AASPs to do their jobs and meet customer expectations.

[gnasher729]

this is EXACTLY what happened to me. I reported warranty fraud to Apple after a 3rd party service center tried to scam me. Apple took this extremely seriously when I called their corporate office in TX.


My original post on an authorized retailer trying to scam me. Interesting read!!!

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=690422

I think I must be missing something. Basically they said that they wouldn't repair your computer under warranty and you should sell it for scrap on eBay. Where is the profit for them? I thought the scam would be that they tell you it isn't covered under warranty and they repair it for say $500, and then tell Apple it was repaired under warranty and Apple pays for the exact same repair again.

Sorry, just read the thread more carefully: So they _did_ actually try to get $900 out of you. In a rather nasty way.

[teamturbo]

I think I must be missing something. Basically they said that they wouldn't repair your computer under warranty and you should sell it for scrap on eBay. Where is the profit for them? I thought the scam would be that they tell you it isn't covered under warranty and they repair it for say $500, and then tell Apple it was repaired under warranty and Apple pays for the exact same repair again.

Sorry, just read the thread more carefully: So they _did_ actually try to get $900 out of you. In a rather nasty way.


Long story short: They tried to get cash money from me on a repair and then bill Apple. I informed Apple. Apple investigated. They made the 3rd party dealer pickup the check and pay for a replacement computer. I have no beef with the store as new owners purchased it. I'm sure they're honest guys.

[Durendal]

There are some justifications for these "frauds" service providers commit.
Against customers is never acceptable, but Apple's rules make it hard for AASPs to do their jobs and meet customer expectations.
Charging customers for something they should absolutely NOT have to pay for in accordance with their warranty agreement with Apple (and the contract the shop signed to become a service center) is not justified at all. Yes, Apple isn't very nice to service centers, but you can make money doing Apple service if you're smart about it. Do your best to keep the Service Excellence rating up. Sell third party components (RAM, hard drives, and third party suppliers for out-of-warranty repairs. A Macbook LCD from OWC is much cheaper than one from Apple and has a 1 year warranty to boot) from the bench. Offer additional services like training and billed onsite.

[AppMan]

On the risk I will probably be flamed I still had to respond to these posts.

I own an Apple Authorized Service Center and these procedures were put into place because of a few bad apples (no pun intended) service providers out there taking advantage of the system. Just like the new procedures Apple has put into place for consumers because of all the fraud consumers try to pull over on Apple.

The stories I can tell you about consumers committing fraud to get something for free.

We had a person bring in a MacBook because it would not power up. On disassembly we found traces of a dried liquid pool under the optical drive. We called the owner and and asked if there might had been an accidental spill they fanatically responded "absolutely not!". Upon further disassembly we noticed clumps of something under the logic board. Once again we called the owner and this time one of the kids answered the phone and admitted they had vomited on the MacBook and the dad had poured several bottles of rubbing alcohol through the computer to try to clean it out. And when that didn't work he bought it to us to repair. When the father found out the kid had ratted him out, the father went on a rant on how "if Apple's engineers were so smart that they would build their laptops where they could resist any liquid spill". That doesn't excuse you from the fact that you lied about your computer repair.

I can't tell you how many times we have had people bring in laptops with broken screens and say "I left it on my desk when I finished last night and when I woke up this morning the screen was broken!". Let's see... what's this dent on the corner of your laptop?

As far as charging you to reassemble your laptop, I don't blame them for doing that. Someone has to pay for the technicians time. Apple was not going to cover your repair, there was indication of abuse (which is typically customer's fault), it only points to you to cover the labor to diagnose your computer. Now if the technician never disassembled the computer, then yeah, they shouldn't charge you, but if the technician spent time to disassemble the computer then someone needs to compensate them for that time, if it isn't Apple, then it's you. I can't tell you how many times people complain that we charge a fee to remove those credit card sized CD disks from their slot load drives. Well let's see... We have to disassemble the computer, disassemble the CD drive, remove the disc, the reassemble everything, test the computer to make sure it works... well who's going to pay for your inserting that disc? Not Apple, it's not their fault, it's not our fault, it was your stupidity that did it, it's your responsibility to pay the bill.

[Rocketman]

Charging customers for something they should absolutely NOT have to pay for in accordance with their warranty agreement with Apple (and the contract the shop signed to become a service center) is not justified at all. Yes, Apple isn't very nice to service centers, but you can make money doing Apple service if you're smart about it. Do your best to keep the Service Excellence rating up. Sell third party components (RAM, hard drives, and third party suppliers for out-of-warranty repairs. A Macbook LCD from OWC is much cheaper than one from Apple and has a 1 year warranty to boot) from the bench. Offer additional services like training and billed onsite.

The fact a consumer has to have near perfect (and unlikely) information to come out a head is an issue.

The fact a service dealer is so constrained they hare hard pressed to make 15% profit is an issue.

While it is long known history Apple is adverse to their own dealers because they wanted to have their own dealers some day, they needed the indys to get where they are now, and thus make it possible for APPLE stores to be here.

I think it is reasonable to say Apple has no loyalty or sense of responsibility to dealers whatsoever despite them sowing the ground for Apple.

Free advise to Apple. Pay them $ to quit, because we all know they sowed the ground, and you will never suffer the existence of a competitor, even a sympathetic and loyal one.

Rocketman

BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO HAVE THEIR OWN SOME DAY, THEY NEEDED THE INDYS TO GET TO WHERE THEY ARE NOW.

[charlituna]

The stories I can tell you about consumers committing fraud to get something for free.

We had a person bring in a MacBook because it would not power up. On disassembly we found traces of a dried liquid pool under the optical drive. We called the owner and and asked if there might had been an accidental spill they fanatically responded "absolutely not!". Upon further disassembly we noticed clumps of something under the logic board. Once again we called the owner and this time one of the kids answered the phone and admitted they had vomited on the MacBook and the dad had poured several bottles of rubbing alcohol through the computer to try to clean it out. And when that didn't work he bought it to us to repair. LIAR LIAR

my favorite is still the guy who brings in his laptop cause there's an odd smell coming out of it when it gets hot. and he's all "I think the battery is getting too hot. It's probably going to explode."

uh, no. that smell is from your dumb cat who peed on and into the machine.

seriously, the guy was at a Genius Bar right next to me. And no the Geniuses wouldn't touch the machine. They were very nice and explained that it was considered accidental damage and not covered by the warranty or Apple Care. When he said he'd pay for the cleanup, they politely told him that they aren't trained for such things and he should take it to someone that is. He was pretty cool as he walked out. Didn't notice the Geniuses wiping out the cleaner and the Purell before calling up the next person


The fact a consumer has to have near perfect (and unlikely) information to come out a head is an issue.

The fact a service dealer is so constrained they hare hard pressed to make 15% profit is an issue.

I want to see a copy of the agreement that these resellers and technicians sign when they want to be 'authorized'. Cause I'm betting they know exactly what they are getting into when they sign up. So if they sign, that's on them. It doesn't excuse defrauding Apple or the customers.

[gerardrj]

On the risk I will probably be flamed I still had to respond to these posts.
...
The stories I can tell you about consumers committing fraud to get something for free.
...


The customers, the AASPs, but perhaps the biggest source of fraudulent costs to Apple is the Genius Bar employee.
These folks can issue a CS code for any part for any reason. Including replacing an entire unit. My understanding is that they have the power to replace a machine even if there is obvious liquid or impact damage and there is little to no oversight of the CS codes issued.

[Durendal]

The stories I can tell you about consumers committing fraud to get something for free.

THIS. THIS. THIS. Ugh. I've seen plenty of Macbooks with obvious spills. Of course the customer doesn't tell you about them, then doesn't act surprised when you tell them. If they hadn't know, they'd be livid. We had one lady bring in a Macbook Pro that was beat to hell. The back of the screen was dented pretty bad (and a large pink bar in the display as a result), the thing was dented, banged up, and scratched to hell, and the keyboard reeked of coffee. Amazingly, it still worked...mostly. Booted and ran, at least, but needed an external keyboard and mouse. And she was miffed when we wouldn't fix it under warranty. Yeah, treat your computer like crap and expect someone else to pick up the tab.

Another guy brought in a Macbook that was literally busted in half. Screen broken off completely. Left it in the back of his truck. He was surprised when he learned that Applecare wouldn't cover it.

We've had a few jerks swear up and down that Apple said they'd cover it, and then we find out that Apple has zero record of it. Sorry, but software work is not covered by default under warranty. Get used to it and read the agreement next time.

A guy brought in a Macbook with a cracked screen. Said his daughter claimed that it just happened, and there were even people on the forums with the same problem! No, it doesn't just happen. You're daughter's a liar, pal. You should have beaten her more when she was younger.

Another guy had an obvious coffee spill into his Macbook that wrecked the optical drive. He kept asking if there was any way we could clean it up with alcohol and send it back to get it covered. I wanted to reach through the phone and cut his tongue out, then cram it up his rear end.

Yeah, I'm sure I could come up with more, but I'm getting too depressed just thinking about it. This job would be much better if it weren't for the customers.

And yes, diagnostic charges are perfectly okay if the computer is not covered. Sorry, but we had to do work on it to find out that we can't get it covered and Apple won't pay us. That means that you pay us. End of story. Diagnostic charges for 100% covered warranty repairs are what piss me off.

[Durendal]

The customers, the AASPs, but perhaps the biggest source of fraudulent costs to Apple is the Genius Bar employee.
These folks can issue a CS code for any part for any reason. Including replacing an entire unit. My understanding is that they have the power to replace a machine even if there is obvious liquid or impact damage and there is little to no oversight of the CS codes issued.
Grrrr...we have to wrestle with Apple (or tell the customer to do so) to get CS codes in most cases. If it's a cracked Macbook top case that's a month outside the REP, then they usually just go ahead. Anything else and it's like pulling teeth. Also, possessed Macs that just refused to work no matter what take forever to just get replaced. I had a Macbook that made a high-pitched buzzing noise all the time. Wasn't the inverter. It was coming from around the CPU/GPU. I replaced EVERYTHING in the bare config and it still kept doing it. I still don't know what it was, but it took four ********* logic boards, numerous other parts, and constantly consulting TSPS and waiting days for a response (and a mail in, where the idiots replaced the fan, something I'd already marked as eliminated and it didn't fix the problem. The mail in depots really suck) before Apple finally just replaced the darn thing. Meanwhile, our Service Excellence rating tanked. Thanks.

On another note, I can understand the diagnostic codes for the battery, but the diagnostic codes for power adapters are the STUPIDEST ******** IDEA EVER. Batteries get used up and depleted. Power adapters don't. Sure, let the diagnostic test them, but don't force us to get a code or punch in some placeholder when the power supply simply stops working, because that's how the usually go. Either they work or they don't with very little middle ground.

[Michaelgtrusa]

Number 1 on the fraud list should be....

Best Buy.

I have personally overheard conversations by sales people telling an innocent couple they need to purchase the Best Buy protection plan. (Because it is better than Apple Care) Just as I would in any case, I enter myself into the conversation and tell the consumer they do not need to buy Best Buy's plan and can wait up to a year to purchase AppleCare, for les money than the BB protection BS. As the sales person back peddles, I find they are often incredibly misinformed and are simply reading from a script.

I have always had an OK experience at Best Buy, but I would NEVER suggest to anyone purchasing an Apple product from Best Buy, or bringing it back to the store for repair. It absolutely IRRITATES me when I see a beautiful brand new iMac sitting back in their Geek Squad, knowing a family was ripped off by some up-sell. IMHO, their tactics are no less deceiving than this other fraud being described.

Agreed.

[Dunepilot]

The customers, the AASPs, but perhaps the biggest source of fraudulent costs to Apple is the Genius Bar employee.
These folks can issue a CS code for any part for any reason. Including replacing an entire unit. My understanding is that they have the power to replace a machine even if there is obvious liquid or impact damage and there is little to no oversight of the CS codes issued.

CS codes are not Genius Bar employees defrauding Apple - the CS code exists to right a situation where a customer has had a bad experience and a small part of the Genius role is to exercise discretion and repair that relationship between the customer and Apple.

CS codes do get checked by senior management, and I honestly can't see a situation where a Genius would waste a code on a case of liquid or impact damage where it could be better applied to a customer who was a week out of warrantee and suffered a logic board failure. Apple Stores also have a culture of Fearless Feedback, i.e. staff pulling each other up if something is unacceptable. The reality is that Geniuses scrutinise each others' work pretty closely, and a misused CS code like that wouldn't wash when the staff member on repairs got to the machine.

[charlituna]

Number 1 on the fraud list should be....

Best Buy.


probably won't surprise you to find out that several Best Buy stores were being investigated for defrauding customers. It seems that on high end items like computers and tvs the stores are rated on that little "Protection Plan" add on.
in a handful of stores, the sales staff would do their pitch and then go to sell whatever and if the person didn't want The Plan "oh i'm sorry it looks like we are out of that item". the bosses were turning the other way about it cause if the percents are really high, they get bonuses.