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Just Switched
Jun 21, 2010, 06:06 PM
http://www.apple.com/macpro/

It bothers me that apple still lists this as new. Does apple think we're stupid? Are they just rubbing it in our face? I understand that apple is in the position of power and we are free to take our money elsewhere so I'm not debating that but what would the reasoning be for this type of disrespect? I'm not suggesting that apple owes anyone anything but should there be some level of respect and common decency? Do they think they are fooling anyone by "Introducing the new Mac Pro..."



keewe
Jun 21, 2010, 06:28 PM
pretty nasty to start a thread titled like this in times like these. ;P

FoxyKaye
Jun 21, 2010, 06:36 PM
At this point, I'm starting to wonder if Apple is just going to simply kill off the Mac Pro and the XServe. That Steve's "wait" comment re: pro updates really means, "Just wait, we're going to end our Pro line in favor of the iMac and iPad."

Or even better, "Just wait, we're shipping iOS on all Apple products now instead of OS X."

*sigh*

And yeah - you did pick a cruel thread title :p

deconstruct60
Jun 21, 2010, 06:38 PM
http://www.apple.com/macpro/

It bothers me that apple still lists this as new. Does apple think we're stupid? Are they just rubbing it in our face?

What they are suppose to rewrite the product description page several times a year ? It is newer than the older one. While there is a tweak there for Snow Leopard ... that actually changed.

Might be remotely making a point if everything on Apple's site wasn't marked "new". iMac, Snow Leopard , iPods, etc. etc. etc.

Just Switched
Jun 21, 2010, 06:46 PM
What they are suppose to rewrite the product description page several times a year ? It is newer than the older one. While there is a tweak there for Snow Leopard ... that actually changed.

Might be remotely making a point if everything on Apple's site wasn't marked "new". iMac, Snow Leopard , iPods, etc. etc. etc.

I'm not sure I was even trying to make a point as much as it was me venting a little frustration. I think you are right though. Everything at apple is new. I'm not expecting a full rewrite but the "New" on everything might be a bit much. Just a little tweak here and there might be nice.

ValSalva
Jun 21, 2010, 06:46 PM
http://www.apple.com/macpro/

It bothers me that apple still lists this as new. Does apple think we're stupid? Are they just rubbing it in our face? I understand that apple is in the position of power and we are free to take our money elsewhere so I'm not debating that but what would the reasoning be for this type of disrespect? I'm not suggesting that apple owes anyone anything but should there be some level of respect and common decency? Do they think they are fooling anyone by "Introducing the new Mac Pro..."

Apple's marketing at its basest. If they just took the word "new" out it would still look impressive but it wouldn't be so galling to the Mac Pro's audience: people who know it's not new.

At this point, I'm starting to wonder if Apple is just going to simply kill off the Mac Pro and the XServe. That Steve's "wait" comment re: pro updates really means, "Just wait, we're going to end our Pro line in favor of the iMac and iPad."

Or even better, "Just wait, we're shipping iOS on all Apple products now instead of OS X."

I definitely felt that way until WWDC and then when the new Mac Mini was released. The iPad was hardly mentioned at WWDC, thankfully. The new Mac Mini says to me that although Apple's main focus is on iOS devices right now they still do care somewhat about OS X. Of course if June 29th comes and goes without a new Mac Pro I might feel otherwise.

deconstruct60
Jun 21, 2010, 06:52 PM
Or even better, "Just wait, we're shipping iOS on all Apple products now instead of OS X."


Since January Apple has shipped more Mac OS X products than "non computer" products.

iPhone + iPad vs. MacBook Pros (in various flavors) , MacBook , Mini

Did Mac OS X products get a hype show? No! Some folks seems to measure not so much on what they do rather than how much press coverage is given. The "talk" as opposed to the "walk".

Some folks also seem to be bent out of shape because being on macrumors held no advantage ( couldn't game the release with insider knowledge. ).

Yeah it is late, but not really all that late (even more so given the gap in the 3600 line up). If Apple was going to kill something they'd just remove it from the website. (e.g., the XRaid. )

If go to the online Apple Store the Mac Pro is selling at a faster pace than the Macbook Air. For all the folks who speculate that Mac Pro demand has collapse and absolutely nobody is buying them ..... the MB Air must be down right dismal.


P.S. I think XServe is in worse shape though. Perhaps there is a rational with the gap in the Xeon 3600 line up and getting volume when they want it. However, XServe has lower volume ( than Mac Pro ) and is immune to Intel not flushing out the 3600 line since wasn't going to use them anyway. Unless they were holding out for a crazy Nethalem-EX Xserve ... which seems unlikely .... not sure what hold up is there.

Icaras
Jun 21, 2010, 06:56 PM
pretty nasty to start a thread titled like this in times like these. ;P

I agree. I vote for a change of thread title. :(

Icaras
Jun 21, 2010, 06:58 PM
I definitely felt that way until WWDC and then when the new Mac Mini was released. The iPad was hardly mentioned at WWDC, thankfully. The new Mac Mini says to me that although Apple's main focus is on iOS devices right now they still do care somewhat about OS X. Of course if June 29th comes and goes without a new Mac Pro I might feel otherwise.

Really? About the new Mac Mini that is. I had thought hope had been rekindled on these boards after we saw the Mac Mini go through a rebirth. I always thought it meant Apple's Mac R&D was indeed hard at work, which could mean good things to come for the MP line, and that the Mac wasn't truly being ignored, as some predicted.

Just Switched
Jun 21, 2010, 07:06 PM
Can I change the thread title or does a mod need to do it? The point wasn't so much to trick people into thinking apple has released new mac pros as much as it was to point out how I feel about apple's wording on their website.

Icaras
Jun 21, 2010, 07:08 PM
Can I change the thread title or does a mod need to do it? The point wasn't so much to trick people into thinking apple has released new mac pros as much as it was to point out how I feel about apple's wording on their website.

Haha, yea I know. I'm not being overly serious at all really. It'll just be interesting to see how many more reactions you get later in the day ;)

deconstruct60
Jun 21, 2010, 07:16 PM
Of course if June 29th comes and goes without a new Mac Pro I might feel otherwise.

June 29th is perhaps a bit quick. Look at the last couple of months.

MacBook Pro April 13 , 2010
MacBook May 18, 2010
Mini June 15, 2010

If Apple is giving themselves an approximately 30 day (4-5 week ) window between releases it could be July 13th or 20th before it shows up.


Wouldn't be surprising if there were some common QA teams (Mac OS , etc. ) that are shared between Mac OS X products so that there is a cap on how many can release and how quickly. Those three lines also share the Nvidia 320M part (and its production rollout) so that could be contributing too, but suspect it is also a case of not doing too much in parallel also.

VirtualRain
Jun 21, 2010, 07:18 PM
I agree. I vote for a change of thread title. :(

+1, I feel like I've been click-jacked! :eek:

ValSalva
Jun 21, 2010, 07:29 PM
June 29th is perhaps a bit quick. Look at the last couple of months.

MacBook Pro April 13 , 2010
MacBook May 18, 2010
Mini June 15, 2010

If Apple is giving themselves an approximately 30 day (4-5 week ) window between releases it could be July 13th or 20th before it shows up.


Wouldn't be surprising if there were some common QA teams (Mac OS , etc. ) that are shared between Mac OS X products so that there is a cap on how many can release and how quickly. Those three lines also share the Nvidia 320M part (and its production rollout) so that could be contributing too, but suspect it is also a case of not doing too much in parallel also.

Yes, when you project it out like that it is less likely that a new Mac Pro will be on June 29th :(

But what about all those rumors about hexacore Xeons being available at the end of June? :rolleyes: Darn rumors!

strausd
Jun 21, 2010, 07:30 PM
June 29th is perhaps a bit quick. Look at the last couple of months.

MacBook Pro April 13 , 2010
MacBook May 18, 2010
Mini June 15, 2010

If Apple is giving themselves an approximately 30 day (4-5 week ) window between releases it could be July 13th or 20th before it shows up.


Wouldn't be surprising if there were some common QA teams (Mac OS , etc. ) that are shared between Mac OS X products so that there is a cap on how many can release and how quickly. Those three lines also share the Nvidia 320M part (and its production rollout) so that could be contributing too, but suspect it is also a case of not doing too much in parallel also.

That's very interesting. If they stick with the update OS X device every month, I wonder what they will do with the iMac... But if it doesn't come by the end of summer, I don't know what I'll do :(

Icaras
Jun 21, 2010, 07:51 PM
+1, I feel like I've been click-jacked!

Haha. Funny. :D

Actually, it seems like I get click-jacked every Tuesday when I load Mac Rumors to check for any Mac Pro news :(

That's very interesting. If they stick with the update OS X device every month, I wonder what they will do with the iMac... But if it doesn't come by the end of summer, I don't know what I'll do :(

I always suspect the iMac would be released between the months of August - October, since it's recent update cycle has been a consistent 8-11,8-11 pattern.

This definitely gives much more weight to a July release, as noted by Deconstruct.

THX1139
Jun 21, 2010, 07:53 PM
At this point, I'm starting to wonder if Apple is just going to simply kill off the Mac Pro and the XServe. That Steve's "wait" comment re: pro updates really means, "Just wait, we're going to end our Pro line in favor of the iMac and iPad."

Or even better, "Just wait, we're shipping iOS on all Apple products now instead of OS X."

*sigh*

And yeah - you did pick a cruel thread title :p

I hate to say it, but I agree. All signs are pointing to the demise of the proline. Here's some of my reasons why I feel that way.

1. They are really slow on updating their MacPro line. It's like they have no interest in staying current with technology in that end of the business. Go to that section of the website and I swear you can hear crickets.

2. They haven't stayed on top of development of Final Cut Studio. It's really out of date compared to Premiere CS5. No support for 64bit yet? That's just stupid.... or maybe they don't care?

3. They discontinued Shake a few years ago saying they were working on a replacement. That replacement has yet to materialize.

4. Most of their revenues are generated by i type of products. To maintain their momentum and competitiveness in the phone and personal product line, they will need to focus all of their attention on them.

5. Most serious content development is happening on the "other" platforms such as Linux. Mac is still a player in smaller studios, but there isn't as much revenue growth in that sector compared to "i" type of products.

6. Adobe and Apple's relationship is strained. Adobe is the reason that most designers use the Mac. Take Adobe out of the equation and they will flock to Windows7.

7. You get far more power for your dollar on PC. Especially if you build it yourself. If MS keeps making in-roads on their OS development, there will be less of a reason to stay with Mac. Windows7 actually looks good. And that is saying a lot from someone who has always hated Windows.

8. All signs are pointing to Apple becoming a personal device, content distribution, and application company. They will phase out the pro-line and eventually put their resources towards only developing for anything with an i.

And before you start flaming my post, consider that I've been a loyal Mac user since 1993. I do all of my development on my trusty Macpro or Macbook Pro. But even with all of that, I'm having doubts about the future of my Mac usage. I'm seriously considering migrating to Windows over the next couple of years if Apple doesn't shift more resources to their proline. As it stands now, I can build a machine that is faster than the top of the line Macpro for a third of the price. I'll develop on a Windows box and then watch it on an iPad or iPhone. I'm sure that Apple will be happy with that arrangement.

reel2reel
Jun 21, 2010, 07:56 PM
Can I change the thread title or does a mod need to do it? The point wasn't so much to trick people into thinking apple has released new mac pros as much as it was to point out how I feel about apple's wording on their website.

It is indeed pretty sad that they're still calling it "new." I find it discouraging that it looks like the web page forgotten in time.

...yet I still hold hope as another Tuesday approaches...

TennisandMusic
Jun 21, 2010, 08:59 PM
I hate to say it, but I agree. All signs are pointing to the demise of the proline. Here's some of my reasons why I feel that way.

1. They are really slow on updating their MacPro line. It's like they have no interest in staying current with technology in that end of the business. Go to that section of the website and I swear you can hear crickets.

2. They haven't stayed on top of development of Final Cut Studio. It's really out of date compared to Premiere CS5. No support for 64bit yet? That's just stupid.... or maybe they don't care?

3. They discontinued Shake a few years ago saying they were working on a replacement. That replacement has yet to materialize.

4. Most of their revenues are generated by i type of products. To maintain their momentum and competitiveness in the phone and personal product line, they will need to focus all of their attention on them.

5. Most serious content development is happening on the "other" platforms such as Linux. Mac is still a player in smaller studios, but there isn't as much revenue growth in that sector compared to "i" type of products.

6. Adobe and Apple's relationship is strained. Adobe is the reason that most designers use the Mac. Take Adobe out of the equation and they will flock to Windows7.

7. You get far more power for your dollar on PC. Especially if you build it yourself. If MS keeps making in-roads on their OS development, there will be less of a reason to stay with Mac. Windows7 actually looks good. And that is saying a lot from someone who has always hated Windows.

8. All signs are pointing to Apple becoming a personal device, content distribution, and application company. They will phase out the pro-line and eventually put their resources towards only developing for anything with an i.

And before you start flaming my post, consider that I've been a loyal Mac user since 1993. I do all of my development on my trusty Macpro or Macbook Pro. But even with all of that, I'm having doubts about the future of my Mac usage. I'm seriously considering migrating to Windows over the next couple of years if Apple doesn't shift more resources to their proline. As it stands now, I can build a machine that is faster than the top of the line Macpro for a third of the price. I'll develop on a Windows box and then watch it on an iPad or iPhone. I'm sure that Apple will be happy with that arrangement.

Only problem with that is that without OSX you don't have iDevices. You just don't. So either they HAVE to maintain OSX on some level (and I think we all agree it's pretty woeful right now), or they allow you to develop on Windows and/or Linux. If the OSX ecosystem dries up, so does everything else. They've got to do something.

jjahshik32
Jun 21, 2010, 09:17 PM
I thought it was going to be a mock up.

Icaras
Jun 21, 2010, 09:44 PM
That's very interesting. If they stick with the update OS X device every month, I wonder what they will do with the iMac... But if it doesn't come by the end of summer, I don't know what I'll do :(

I just remembered. Let's not forget about the Air, which is also way overdue for an update as well. The guys over at the MBA forums seem like they're suffering just as much as we are :(

So, keeping on track with an 11 month update for the iMac, that would put it squarely in the month of September, just perfectly out of reach of the Back-to-School program.

This leaves July and August. Either the Mac Pro gets updated in July and the MBA in August, or vice versa. But I think this is how it will all go down.

Thoughts?

deconstruct60
Jun 21, 2010, 10:13 PM
H
I always suspect the iMac would be released between the months of August - October, since it's recent update cycle has been a consistent 8-11,8-11 pattern.


I'd say September-October for iMac. There are rumors that Intel will release a 32nm shrink of Lynnfield ( quads with no built in GPUs. they would just primarily get cheaper with minimum GHz bump.). That should allow the current i5/i7 models to move down into the lower two slots and squeeze out the Core2Duos completely. The problem is what put into the higher slot (plus its max ghz alternative). They need 3 i5's in the $113-258 price range for their 3 entry standard line up. Then need an i7 no more than $284 to slot into that "max iMac performance" slot. Same general missing gap area that the 5620-5640 would be in; a missing set of mainstream value, 32nm, quad core parts.

The long October/November dates if Apple want to fill the upper slots of iMac with SandyBridge components. Not sure if Intel is going to shrink Lynnfield and be very aggressive with SandyBridge at same time. If have to wait for Sandy Bridge then it will be Q4 2010.


Apple could do something quick in July/August with the clarkfield line (desktop Core-i with GPUs introduced in January) but that means more Intel IGP which isn't generating a huge fanbase on the MacBook Pros.

strausd
Jun 21, 2010, 10:15 PM
I just remembered. Let's not forget about the Air, which is also way overdue for an update as well. The guys over at the MBA forums seem like they're suffering just as much as we are :(

So, keeping on track with an 11 month update for the iMac, that would put it squarely in the month of September, just perfectly out of reach of the Back-to-School program.

This leaves July and August. Either the Mac Pro gets updated in July and the MBA in August, or vice versa. But I think this is how it will all go down.

Thoughts?

I forgot about the MBA and that theory definitely makes sense. But now the question is which month? What would they be adding in the iMac? Since they now use desktop CPUs could they put hexacores in it? But then we would be in a similar situation that we are in now, where the iMac competes closely with the low end Mac Pro. And if other theories are right in that Apple will offer a 4-core low end Mac Pro, then if a hexacore iMac comes out, it will be faster than the Mac Pro. So many things could happen!!!!!!

deconstruct60
Jun 21, 2010, 10:29 PM
I just remembered. Let's not forget about the Air, which is also way overdue for an update as well. The guys over at the MBA forums seem like they're suffering just as much as we are :(


As were the MBPro folks after the Core-i mobile chips had been shipping for months and Apple had not updated the whole line up yet. All the anguish in that forum from Jan to April didn't make the MBP get released any faster.


However, the MBA is dead last over in the Mac Store. If I was Apple I'd wait a bit long to see just how much the iPad killed off the MBA user base (i.e., how many were really primarily buying on weight , smallest size, and just simple productivity on the road apps. ) I suspect the iPad is cannibalizing a sizable fraction that former market. There is also no newer/faster CPU to move to so that all it primarily would be is a 320M upgrade and maybe (if memory shrank enough both physically and cost wise) a move to 4GB. Neither of which is something to crow about. More so, just upgrades for upgrade sake.

If Intel backs Apple into a corner where they have to drop the optical drive in the MBP 13" to get a discrete GPU in there, then the MBA is dead. The differentiation between the two will be really small.


The Mac Pro has substantive CPU upgrades to move to (at least in the DP configs using shipping 5600 series). If Intel fills in the gaps in the SP 3600 line up soon, then it is good to go. Worse case if Intel is completely screwing up the 3600 line up then Apple can go with some speed bumped 3500s. Not really preferable but if an Intel CPU cock-up ... not much can do about it.

deconstruct60
Jun 21, 2010, 10:50 PM
... where the iMac competes closely with the low end Mac Pro.

The 'super deluxe, max performance' iMac should compete closely with the lower end Mac Pro. Why should Apple have a large gap in performance when there is no large gap in price ?

If the top end iMac came with an optional antiglare/matte screen (or an iMac with a hood ), there would be that many more folks who really don't need a modern workstation who would buy the desktop that they really need (low core count, 4-12GB memory box ).

For the immediate future I suspect Intel will let AMD have the $200-300 hexcore processor market. Intel will perhaps have one priced below $500 before years end, but doubt they are going to limbo under the $300 mark at any desktop reasonable GHz clocking. If the processor isn't under $300 it isn't going into in an iMac.

nanofrog
Jun 21, 2010, 11:15 PM
Not sure if Intel is going to shrink Lynnfield and be very aggressive with SandyBridge at same time.
Intel will almost certainly break parts (Sandy Bridge) releases into sections in a Top Down methodology though, starting with the higher performance parts as they'll recover R&D faster that way (same fashion that Nehalem P/N's were released, starting with LGA1366 parts, followed by the consumer oriented LGA1156 parts).

This would prevent competition/collision between the Lynnfield and Sandy Bridge lineups, and keep profits flowing (new parts for vendors to base respective segments on).

harveypooka
Jun 22, 2010, 03:44 AM
Yeah it is late, but not really all that late (even more so given the gap in the 3600 line up). If Apple was going to kill something they'd just remove it from the website. (e.g., the XRaid. )

I'd say over 400 days is pretty damned late.

The longer it takes for the iMac and Mac Pro to be updated, the less likely people who check the time since updates will buy, right?

jamesedward
Jun 22, 2010, 04:31 AM
So I was looking at getting a custom Mac Pro with this spec

One 2.66GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
8GB (4x2GB)
640GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
ATI Radeon HD 4870 512MB
One 18x SuperDrive
Apple LED Cinema Display (24" flat panel)
AirPort Extreme Wi-Fi Card with 802.11n

the cost is somewhere around 3000, so my question is if i wait for the update, (witch is rather hard to do) will the hexcore bump up the price?

obviously i appreciate this is speculation, thanks.

ValSalva
Jun 22, 2010, 04:42 AM
So I was looking at getting a custom Mac Pro with this spec

One 2.66GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
8GB (4x2GB)
640GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
ATI Radeon HD 4870 512MB
One 18x SuperDrive
Apple LED Cinema Display (24" flat panel)
AirPort Extreme Wi-Fi Card with 802.11n

the cost is somewhere around 3000, so my question is if i wait for the update, (witch is rather hard to do) will the hexcore bump up the price?

obviously i appreciate this is speculation, thanks.

Apple has bumped the base configuration on the new models of the MacBook Pro and Mac Mini. So I'd be willing to bet there will be a price bump on the next Mac Pro :(

jamesedward
Jun 22, 2010, 05:06 AM
do you think that Base config with hexcore would be better that up'd 4core

.....( i kinda see the oblivious answers to my own question in front of me )

never the less,

you39
Jun 22, 2010, 05:11 AM
So I was looking at getting a custom Mac Pro with this spec

One 2.66GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
8GB (4x2GB)
640GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
ATI Radeon HD 4870 512MB
One 18x SuperDrive
Apple LED Cinema Display (24" flat panel)
AirPort Extreme Wi-Fi Card with 802.11n

the cost is somewhere around 3000, so my question is if i wait for the update, (witch is rather hard to do) will the hexcore bump up the price?

obviously i appreciate this is speculation, thanks.

As others mentioned in one or more of the other threads... there's not necessarily going to be a hexacore in the new low-end model. A quadcore with more GHz at the same price is possible.

ValSalva
Jun 22, 2010, 05:13 AM
do you think that Base config with hexcore would be better that up'd 4core

.....( i kinda see the oblivious answers to my own question in front of me )

never the less,

It probably will be better than the base configuration on the current model. After all it has been 15+ months since the last update.

If you're a pro and can't wait the current Mac Pro is still be plenty of machine. If you can wait it's highly likely the price to performance ratio will be at its highest in the months right after a new Mac Pro release. It all depends on what you do, what you need, and how long you are willing/can wait.

deconstruct60
Jun 22, 2010, 01:55 PM
As others mentioned in one or more of the other threads... there's not necessarily going to be a hexacore in the new low-end model. A quadcore with more GHz at the same price is possible.

There is a mix of 6 and 4 in the upgraded 5600 series (http://ark.intel.com/ProductCollection.aspx?series=47915) . The other boost that a 4 core will get is that the L3 cache has been bumped to 12MB (from 8MB). Almost had to for 6 cores, but that leaves 4 core models with a even more space to work with. Even more so when in single core, "Turbo" mode.

In the base, better , best mix , only the "better" and "best" likely to get a 6 core. However, right now there is no Intel offering to fill the "better" price slot for the SP box.

strausd
Jun 22, 2010, 01:59 PM
So I was looking at getting a custom Mac Pro with this spec

One 2.66GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
8GB (4x2GB)
640GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
ATI Radeon HD 4870 512MB
One 18x SuperDrive
Apple LED Cinema Display (24" flat panel)
AirPort Extreme Wi-Fi Card with 802.11n

the cost is somewhere around 3000, so my question is if i wait for the update, (witch is rather hard to do) will the hexcore bump up the price?

obviously i appreciate this is speculation, thanks.

Nobody knows for sure.

If they just swamp a quad-core for a hexa-core, then there is no reason for them to raise the prices besides wanting more of a profit. If you look at Intel's site and look at the prices for the xeon 5500s and 5600s, there is hardly a difference at all. The difference starts at like 10$ and the biggest is only 50$. Some people have said that a base 12-core system will be $6,000 and go up from there for faster clock speed, but this is total bull. So like I said, if they just put in a hexa for a quad, the prices shouldn't go up much at all.

However, if they add new GPUs, which they will, that could cause the prices to go up a little. The thing is that these will definitely be better than the current ones so it might be worth it. However, even with a GPU upgrade, the prices shouldn't change much, or at all for just the GPU depending on which one.

As for a case redesign, this could cause the price to go up depending on what they do. Some say they will add 2.5 inch bays, but this is more of a wish than anything. They will most likely add a black Apple logo if they do anything to the case. If that is all they do and no major things inside the case, then this shouldn't cause the price to go up either.

Generally the people who think the price will go up think it will be caused by the hexa-cores. However, this is not accurate at all.

These links will show Intel's estimated price point for each CPU.
Xeon 5500 (http://ark.intel.com/ProductCollection.aspx?series=39565)
Xeon 5600 (http://ark.intel.com/ProductCollection.aspx?series=47915)

Comparing the 5570 and the 5670, there is only a $54 difference. Also, this would be the fastest clock speed that they would put in a dual CPU MP.

deconstruct60
Jun 22, 2010, 03:58 PM
I'd say over 400 days is pretty damned late.


On a year ( 365) calendar, it isn't that late. Also Apple shipped about a month "early" last time ( a month before chips were shipping in quantity). So a more pragmatic date to start from is the XServe launch date. XServe is about 3 months late.

A tech project that is a one or two months late .... happens all the time.
[This is one reason Apple likes to keep stuff a secret.... when their projects run late then magically Apple ships on time because don't kick off leak until closer to the end. ]

Intel is playing a bit of a game with their 32nm releases. They are being aggressive in part to "prove" AMD is behind the curve. So they release when can't really match up to demand. That will also allow them to squeeze better deals out of customers who "have to be" first to market. Those customers don't have any leverage. If Apple wants better prices they will wait.



The longer it takes for the iMac and Mac Pro to be updated, the less likely people who check the time since updates will buy, right?

Wrong. At least in the case of the Mac Pro. Businesses want a regular, predicable changes to the systems. They don't want to see churning prices flopping around every couple of months. Since the procurement process is often long ( approval , getting the budget , etc.) a year isn't that long. If have the budget to buy that money isn't going to disappear if wait a bit longer. (if a use it or loose it context perhaps) Similarly, if buying every 3-4 years then the machine present at end of that 3-4 years is substantially faster; so they buy it. If the refresh window is moving around a bit sometimes you get an extra jump and sometimes you don't.

Sure there are subset that are at the edge of some window or want to game the timings for maximum effect, but they are not the bulk of the market.


It only matters if the folks walk away and buy another vendor's product. Apple should be concerned that folks buy in Quarter 2 and not in Quarter 3? Phefff.... Apple has buckets of money coming in the door constantly right now. Last thing they are worried about is how to juice the numbers between some quarter right now.

The server box market isn't like the discount consumer mini tower box market. The Mac Pro is up in the server box market area. Some folks have some whacked expectations that Mac Pro refresh should be in the sub-year frequency range. Nor do all of the customer evaporate in two months.


Even in the consumer market most folks buy when they need it. Or buy at some external driven event ( Christmas). Only a minority are sitting on sites like macrumors checking the buyers guide every week.

deconstruct60
Jun 22, 2010, 04:12 PM
Intel will almost certainly break parts (Sandy Bridge) releases into sections in a Top Down methodology though,

It is not how they break it into section but how fast they want to drive the roll out.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20100616150713_Intel_to_Ramp_Up_Sandy_Bridge_Aggressively_on_Desktop_Market.html

If there are 32nm Lynnfield parts out there that are cheaper ( because don't have "extra" Sandy Bridge stuff like IGP ) they will get more design wins. With no 32nm Lynnfield parts then more folks have to buy Intel IGP (they don't have a choice. ) If Intel wants to ram their graphics down everyone's throat then the graphics-less parts will disappear.

If they are going to be more balanced in their offerings (integrated graphics as well as not ) then yes more profitable (smaller) Lynnfield offerings make sense.

deconstruct60
Jun 22, 2010, 06:38 PM
I hate to say it, but I agree. All signs are pointing to the demise of the proline. Here's some of my reasons why I feel that way.

1. They are really slow on updating their MacPro line.


Since Intel is only major updating the Xeon processors on yearly basis and the server class motherboard designs are generally on a 2 year update cycle ( with minor tweaks between years for the Xeon updates ). What is so slow.

Increasing the Mac Pro is a server class hardware. That means in general the update rate is going to slow down. Apple had to synch up to Intel Xeon since flipping over from G5's but it has been long enough that release schedules have synchronized to a large extent now.

So the whole should update on "236" day average that macrumors buyers guide hints at is bogus. That period of time is not grounded in the parts or the designs being leveraged.

Apple released machines for the Core-i mobile laptop market after everyone else did. MBP is now top selling mac option on the online Apple store. So much for have to release on same day Intel drops a press release.



Go to that section of the website and I swear you can hear crickets.


Bluntly, there are lots of folks here on macrumors that hear exactly what they want to hear.





2. They haven't stayed on top of development of Final Cut Studio. It's really out of date compared to Premiere CS5. No support for 64bit yet?


The Finder took how long to go 64-bit? Does that mean the Apple had lost its commitment to the Finder ? For large applications there are lots of internal moving parts. It can very well be that some internal framework made a bunch of bonehead 32-bit assumptions. Unraveling that takes time if have fixed resources.

Apple has also cut the price of FCS how many times over its lifetime ? Apple isn't necessarily going to the upper stratospheric niche markets.








3. They discontinued Shake a few years ago saying they were working on a replacement. That replacement has yet to materialize.


Shake wasn't originally a Mac program. Didn't release on Mac OS X until after Apple bought them if recall correctly. That isn't exactly the most representative software case to form an argument over.

Separate compositing software just may not have been worth the effort.
It is not like Apple has banned 3rd parties from filling this gap. In fact, if want a competitive market for software offerings it is more of a hindrance if the systems' vendor is competing in the market than if they don't. Eight years ago Apple had to jump in because lots of vendors were exiting or at least lowering priorities. It is actually the sign of a death spiral market when there are fewer and fewer software vendors over time and the system vendor has to acquire them to prop up the market.

For narrow markets with high priced software it often doesn't pay to be single platform ( where Apple was taking Shake). The customers know they are being tracked into a single vendor setup, which typically just gets worse price wise over time.




4. Most of their revenues are generated by i type of products. To maintain their momentum and competitiveness in the phone and personal product line, they will need to focus all of their attention on them.


This is yet another one of those emperor wears no clothes memes that are floating around. The mac line was never heavily skewed to the upper end of the line. There was always a primary effort to get out a more personal focused product. And when Apple focused on sky high stuff ( e.g., the $1000-2000 Newtons) they were usually busts.



5. Most serious content development is happening on the "other" platforms such as Linux. Mac is still a player in smaller studios,

Linux? Can see Linux as being dominate in render farms. Mac systems don't really compete as pure computational nodes. What seriously is lacking on Mac OS systems is software where can do the "front end" (user interface , display) on the Mac system and then ship the computational workload out to more heterogeneous (or computationally focused ) boxes.

The notion of putting the cluster in a box to be used by a single person or very small workgroup.... of course that only plays well are small shops.




7. You get far more power for your dollar on PC. Especially if you build it yourself.

If you do it yourself also means you are responsible for support. (chase down individual warranty providers. chase down glitches , etc. etc. )

It isn't really more power, it is you can make far more many tradeoffs in WinPC ecosystem. For example, Trade case , power supply , ease of maintenance for more GHz. If want a completed and suppurted system from a top 8 system vendor then the costs aren't all that dissimilar if comparing equivalent devices. ( not one vendor's mini eco tower to another's top line model, but apples-to-apples comparisons. )


The All-in-one has been taking over the PC market too though. The whole "screwdriver shop" system vendor notion is gradually going away. It has happened much faster on the Mac side since Apple controls it, but there is little to indicate that they are not out in front of a general trend. Perhaps too far in some cases but generally that is where things are going.

PeterQVenkman
Jun 22, 2010, 08:59 PM
Shake wasn't originally a Mac program. Didn't release on Mac OS X until after Apple bought them if recall correctly. That isn't exactly the most representative software case to form an argument over.

I think Shake is an indication of Apple buying into a market, and then rethinking their investment. "Buyer's remorse," if you will. ;) I see companies like Autodesk and wonder how in the hell people run a business like that. I think Steve Jobs looked at some invoice and said "Shake? What's this crap? Cancel it."

I also wonder what Apple thought their pro customers would think about their decision to take a program that was basically an industry standard, require you to buy a mac to use it (no kidding, linux copies required a mac pro purchase at one point!) and then throw it in the dungeon.

They made no friends in the compositing world.


For narrow markets with high priced software it often doesn't pay to be single platform ( where Apple was taking Shake). The customers know they are being tracked into a single vendor setup, which typically just gets worse price wise over time.

Or in the case of shake, the customers watch their software investment evaporate. I would compare it to an alternative universe where Autodesk bought softimage and canceled it. I just don't see the point of why they bought it in the first place. Apple wasn't competing in the market, bought into it, then left users in the lurch in order to exit it.

Steve probably had someone's family killed over that debacle.

The All-in-one has been taking over the PC market too though. The whole "screwdriver shop" system vendor notion is gradually going away.

Are people actually buying those all in one gateways and HP touchsmart PCs? God have mercy.

nanofrog
Jun 22, 2010, 09:04 PM
It is not how they break it into section but how fast they want to drive the roll out.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20100616150713_Intel_to_Ramp_Up_Sandy_Bridge_Aggressively_on_Desktop_Market.html

If there are 32nm Lynnfield parts out there that are cheaper ( because don't have "extra" Sandy Bridge stuff like IGP ) they will get more design wins. With no 32nm Lynnfield parts then more folks have to buy Intel IGP (they don't have a choice. ) If Intel wants to ram their graphics down everyone's throat then the graphics-less parts will disappear.

If they are going to be more balanced in their offerings (integrated graphics as well as not ) then yes more profitable (smaller) Lynnfield offerings make sense.
A balanced approach makes the most sense though. It allows them a broad range of products, so as not to miss out on a particular segment (i.e. Sandy Bridge's Integrated Graphics in the lower cost systems, or those that don't need it, vs. Lynnfield + separate GPU for additional graphics performance).

From the Roadmaps they've published, it suggests this is the approach that they're aiming for IMO. Granted, exact release dates do fluctuate from the official date, but it's usually not that far off (say ~2 months if they've over estimated quanties the fabs can actually produce on schedule compared to the intended schedule; real vs. target).

manhattanboy
Jun 22, 2010, 10:56 PM
I hate to say it, but I agree. All signs are pointing to the demise of the proline. Here's some of my reasons why I feel that way.

6. Adobe and Apple's relationship is strained. Adobe is the reason that most designers use the Mac. Take Adobe out of the equation and they will flock to Windows7.

7. You get far more power for your dollar on PC. Especially if you build it yourself. If MS keeps making in-roads on their OS development, there will be less of a reason to stay with Mac. Windows7 actually looks good. And that is saying a lot from someone who has always hated Windows.

And before you start flaming my post, consider that I've been a loyal Mac user since 1993.

I totally agree... Most of the Pro apps that I am now wanting are PC apps, and while its nice to run bootcamp, for literally half the price of a Pro rig from Apple, I can get something faster in the PC land! And btw I have been a Mac user since '84.

I just remembered. Let's not forget about the Air, which is also way overdue for an update as well. The guys over at the MBA forums seem like they're suffering just as much as we are :(
As an MBA user, I am actually quite happy. My 2 year old MBA has held its own quite nicely since rev. C added absolutely nothing performance wise. I suspect, rev. D will finally increase performance, but probably marginally as Apple has shown that they will not move past the C2D chips. Just to put some perspective on how old these chips are, my ~4 year old iMac has a C2D...

pretty nasty to start a thread titled like this in times like these. ;P
I believe that was his original point! Shame on you for flaming him into submission. If Apple is going to state that "Here is te brand new iMac..." then having him say that in the title only proves how crappy their false advertising is.

manhattanboy
Jun 22, 2010, 11:11 PM
However, the MBA is dead last over in the Mac Store. If I was Apple I'd wait a bit long to see just how much the iPad killed off the MBA user base (i.e., how many were really primarily buying on weight , smallest size, and just simple productivity on the road apps. ) I suspect the iPad is cannibalizing a sizable fraction that former market.

I for one totally avoided the iPad because I have an MBA. Can the iPad do Photoshop, Illustrator, Indesign, Dreamweaver, and Flash programming? Office 2012 on it rocks as well. Then there's the iChatting, Hulu, X11 apps, etc. Apple has crippled the iPad beyond any real usefulness. Everything the iPad does, I can do on my phone, which conveniently fits into my pocket. If Apple wants to kill the MBA, fine. The PC w/ linux bootable options are looking better and better every single day. Not to mention Hackintosh....

manewman
Jun 22, 2010, 11:44 PM
Hardware is not the issue for the delay, Apple is reengineering the case.

nanofrog
Jun 23, 2010, 12:06 AM
Hardware is not the issue for the delay, Apple is reengineering the case.
Do you have a source you can link?

If not, it's only speculation as the rest of the potential reasons listed (multiple threads). ;)

harveypooka
Jun 23, 2010, 03:13 AM
the cost is somewhere around 3000, so my question is if i wait for the update, (witch is rather hard to do) will the hexcore bump up the price?


If you're spending that kind of money and can wait, as the Pro is a "thing", I'd wait.

Mind you, the Pro was rumoured to be updated in January, then March, then July. We be running outta time in July.

Since MR went iOS Rumours we hear nothing! :(

PaulD-UK
Jun 23, 2010, 03:19 AM
I think Steve Jobs looked at some invoice and said "Shake? What's this crap? Cancel it."Hi
I always thought he bought Shake to give* the source code to Pixar, who needed to develop it faster than Nothing Real had the resources to do... ;)

*Give = sell to avoid breaching competetion/anti-competition legislation - anybody else could buy the code as well.

harveypooka
Jun 23, 2010, 03:20 AM
Do you have a source you can link?

If not, it's only speculation as the rest of the potential reasons listed (multiple threads). ;)

Ssssh, it's the inter-dimensional door I was talking about earlier!

If you talk about it, it vanishes.

telequest
Jun 23, 2010, 06:30 AM
Ssssh, it's the inter-dimensional door I was talking about earlier!

If you talk about it, it vanishes.

It will have an invisibility cloak. And render in the cloud (lightning optional). Wand will replace keyboard and mouse.

chaosbunny
Jun 23, 2010, 06:55 AM
What they are suppose to rewrite the product description page several times a year ?

Why not? Log into CMS, delete "new" after 6 months, logout of CMS. Shouldn't take more than a minute. ;)

Right now, I (want to) believe that they are redesigning the Mac Pro. I don't think it will be discontinued. After all, Apple wouldn't want to depend on Windows boxes to deliver the HD content for its iProducts.

xgman
Jun 23, 2010, 09:53 AM
Everyone here should email sjobs@ and ask are they discontinuing the Mac Pro or something like that and maybe he will respond to one. I don't actually think they are, but we need to get his attention for a response of some sort. maybe if he gets enough emails he might quack, not that it will change anything . .

Ravich
Jun 23, 2010, 10:26 AM
I think he already did respond to that question a few weeks ago. I believe his response was "No. Not true."

Gakboi
Jun 23, 2010, 10:29 AM
At this point, I'm starting to wonder if Apple is just going to simply kill off the Mac Pro and the XServe.

They can't. They're professional machines... they will update them because people need them. I'm sure the fact businesses try to cut back on buying unessentials like new computers during tough economic times is the main reason why Apple are in no rush to update.

Consumers on the other hand will still spend hence ipad and iphone4.

Deepshade
Jun 23, 2010, 10:55 AM
Why not? Log into CMS, delete "new" after 6 months, logout of CMS. Shouldn't take more than a minute. ;)

Right now, I (want to) believe that they are redesigning the Mac Pro. I don't think it will be discontinued. After all, Apple wouldn't want to depend on Windows boxes to deliver the HD content for its iProducts.

but you could with a top end iMac
and you'd have an even more direct empathy if you have a touchscreen iMac (http://www.9to5mac.com/rumor_and_speculation_on_apple)

ValSalva
Jun 23, 2010, 11:33 AM
but you could with a top end iMac
and you'd have an even more direct empathy if you have a touchscreen iMac (http://www.9to5mac.com/rumor_and_speculation_on_apple)

Carpal tunnel, meet your new companion, rotator cuff injury.

chaosbunny
Jun 23, 2010, 11:54 AM
but you could with a top end iMac
and you'd have an even more direct empathy if you have a touchscreen iMac (http://www.9to5mac.com/rumor_and_speculation_on_apple)

What if you don't like mirror screens? What if you want a dual or tripple matte 30" screen setup? What if you want more than 16 gb ram? What if you want an internal raid setup? What if you don't want to loose the whole computer when the screen breaks?

What if you don't want your arms to hurt after 20 minutes of using a touchscreen on your desk?

No, for some, an iMac is simply not an option.

xgman
Jun 23, 2010, 11:59 AM
I think he already did respond to that question a few weeks ago. I believe his response was "No. Not true."

It wasn't directly about the mac pro specifically.

hannahwildcat
Jun 23, 2010, 12:24 PM
Actually, it seems like I get click-jacked every Tuesday when I load Mac Rumors to check for any Mac Pro news :(



Ya, that's how i feel too! All it is is more iPhone 4 Crap. I Honestly don't give a flying F--- whether or not iPhones have shipped from any location or to any company. If people care so much, just let em check order status. Don't crap up the macrumors front page.

PeterQVenkman
Jun 23, 2010, 12:57 PM
Ya, that's how i feel too! All it is is more iPhone 4 Crap. I Honestly don't give a flying F--- whether or not iPhones have shipped from any location or to any company. If people care so much, just let em check order status. Don't crap up the macrumors front page.

I love the home page posts that say things like "some customers seeing iPhone orders shipped."

Wow.

reel2reel
Jun 23, 2010, 12:59 PM
but you could with a top end iMac
and you'd have an even more direct empathy if you have a touchscreen iMac (http://www.9to5mac.com/rumor_and_speculation_on_apple)

Not true. An iMac has so many limitations. On paper it looks wonderful, but putting out HD shows requires a Mac Pro for many reasons. Unless you're talking youtube videos or 1-minute promo's. I find the newest imac useless for even offlining in final cut, if you've got lots of media and high-resolution graphic elements.

deconstruct60
Jun 23, 2010, 12:59 PM
Why not?


Because someone will take it as an pre-announcement of a newer Mac Pro and when it doesn't come soon enough they'll hire some ambulance chasing lawyer to charge Apple with breaking a commitment to release a product. Even if don't get sued, a self inflicted Osborne effect .... yeah that is a really good idea.


It is obvious to those that look at the site that "new" is relative to the "old" version of the product; it did not exist before. It is still technically new as long as there isn't a newer one. So there is no reason to change it. That's why not. There is no reason to create a drab, mundane sales pitch to the product over time. Is "magical" , "amazing" , etc. have all their impact after iFixit has dissected it and the products have been in the stores for 6 months? Going to change those words too? There are also folks who don't load up the page every couple of weeks to re-read it. To those folks, it is fresh.

It is a sales pitch web page. It is not a tech spec page.

Anyone who really just wants to check whether Apple has announced anything new can go to Apple's press release page or their "news" page. That is where 'news' is published. Alternatively, they can go to the support page (http://www.apple.com/support/macpro/) and look at the specifications (usually updated 24 hours after intro) . Those are labeled by date.



Right now, I (want to) believe that they are redesigning the Mac Pro.


That would be the best excuse for the delay. Doesn't seem to be the most plausible though.

reel2reel
Jun 23, 2010, 01:00 PM
What if you don't like mirror screens? What if you want a dual or tripple matte 30" screen setup? What if you want more than 16 gb ram? What if you want an internal raid setup? What if you don't want to loose the whole computer when the screen breaks?

What if you don't want your arms to hurt after 20 minutes of using a touchscreen on your desk?

No, for some, an iMac is simply not an option.

Yes, that screen is TERRIBLE. I was just trying to watch a rough-cut video on an iMac and nobody could see anything but the room reflection (it's near a window, mind you). Awful.

deconstruct60
Jun 23, 2010, 01:12 PM
Don't crap up the macrumors front page.

Macrumors front page is filled with whatever will generate the most page hits... and ad presents. It is an attractor of what is broadly controversial (or minimally discussed) more so than highest newsworthy item.

Occasionally when there is a real new rumor or bonafide news (announcement) that is significant so it gets weaved into the mix. There are not several new solid rumors a day, 365 days a year. the 24/7/365 news cycle contributes to this too.

The iphone just got released. It is now in users hands so there is lots of feedback to be gathered. There is no reason why it shouldn't be on the front page.

deconstruct60
Jun 23, 2010, 02:59 PM
I think Steve Jobs looked at some invoice and said "Shake? What's this crap? Cancel it."


Apple bought Shake back in 2002. At that time, Jobs was still eyeball deep in time slicing between being CEO of Pixar and Apple at the same time. Apple went on a run of buying stuff associated with Hollywood. That all smelled much more of Jobs' hand than something that sneaked in under his radar since he was spending "half" of his time bopping around Hollywood business circles.

I'd guess that Apple wanted Shake on the Mac OS X platform. When porting porting proved to be more expensive than Nothing Real could (or wanted to ) shoulder could have led to discussions for Apple to invest to get it ported. When Apple found out they could buy NR for a relatively low amount they did.

So easily, Apple bought it because they could and it was "cheap". Neither one of those is a solid foundation for a long term commitment to the product.


I also wonder what Apple thought their pro customers would think about their decision to take a program that was basically an industry standard, require you to buy a mac to use it

Industry standard?

A post here:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/index.php/t-741312.html

pegged NR's user base at 2,500. Apple then went on to grow that to 30-40K. Given the associated post acquisition price drops (and likely increase in academic copies sold) that seems reasonable. High prices tends to shrink the user base.

At 2,500 and 10K price it would be shocking if Apple paid more than $25M for NR. At 30K and $5K they would more than made their money back. So shutting it down, if continued development painful, is a no brainer .

Apple apparently tried to use the software as a wedge ( buying a Mac OS X software + hardware system was lower than buying just the software for Linux). Being a tool being used to achieve an end, it should be evident there isn't a deep commitment to the software in and of itself. If Apple has taken to selling appliances ( a "box" that just did compositing) that would have been more aligned with the program's primary function.


Long term though Apple needed to integrate the pro video stuff into a suite. If being used as a wedge and off platform initial heritage that doesn't particularly lend itself to merging into a suite. Once at the "but will totally rewrite from ground up to integrate" stage, you might as well just take the low hanging fruit and just merge it. (e.g., take very basic compositing and put it into the suite ).



Are people actually buying those all in one gateways and HP touchsmart PCs? God have mercy.

I should have said All-in-ones/laptops. Technically laptops are in same boat of not being "box with slots and attached monitor" category. Between the laptop and merge computer to monitor models the others are in decline. The vast majority of users need a complete system that just works. Has nothing to do with touchscreens. Has much more to do with computers becoming smaller ( fewer and fewer chips and components needed to implement one.) and the core needs of the users.

There is a smaller set of folks who do require more flexibility. They are not the mainstream. Actually never were the mainstream even if the legacy mainstream "modular box" suggested they were. That doesn't mean Apple is ignoring the market. Just assigning the relatively weighting it actually has.

Mac Pros and XServes are likely to drift into a 12-16 month refresh cycle over time. That's no slower than Moore's Law and if the "ultimate flexible" boxes drift toward packing as many transistors as possible into the box.... can't really go any faster than Moore's Law.

If there is a failure here in Apple's policy toward the Pro market, it is a failure to announce retirements/EOL around the same time that Apple internally makes the decision. If the Mac Pro has been "steved" then announce it. Not the notion of pre-announcing; that isn't as important.

Ravich
Jun 23, 2010, 03:37 PM
It wasn't directly about the mac pro specifically.

actually it was

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=923225&page=2

Evan_11
Jun 23, 2010, 09:20 PM
I think one of the key reasons that we have not seen an update to the Mac Pro is the economy. Pros are going to be content with what they have until their own business picks up. Another reason is that the top end Mac Pros probably max the current OS X out. The software has yet to catch up with the hardware. The frustrating thing for a lot of us is that we haven't seen any sort of price breaks on the current models. It would be great if Apple threw in a better video card and a couple more gigs of ram with the base model. That would never happen but it would make it a much better value and would probably trigger some sales.

nanofrog
Jun 23, 2010, 10:51 PM
I think one of the key reasons that we have not seen an update to the Mac Pro is the economy. Pros are going to be content with what they have until their own business picks up. Another reason is that the top end Mac Pros probably max the current OS X out. The software has yet to catch up with the hardware. The frustrating thing for a lot of us is that we haven't seen any sort of price breaks on the current models. It would be great if Apple threw in a better video card and a couple more gigs of ram with the base model. That would never happen but it would make it a much better value and would probably trigger some sales.
They still have to compete with other vendors to some extent (i.e. software designed for a specific task available for multiple OS's, including Linux, even if it's not the same exact developer, so PC's are a source of competition to the overall bottom line), even though they can't install OS X. Dell's and other vendor's systems could potentially be run as a hackintosh system, but companies like Dell, HP,... would never condone such usage, let alone install OS X at the assembly plant.

Even if they don't offer a UNIX based OS, it's not that difficult to install a UNIX based OS by the user (various Linux distros, or others such as Open Solaris).

xgman
Jun 24, 2010, 10:24 AM
from what I've seen today all over the news about the serious iphone 4 problems, maybe it's a good idea they didn't rush the new Mac pro out. :rolleyes:

inguatu
Jun 24, 2010, 11:32 AM
Mac Pros and XServes are likely to drift into a 12-16 month refresh cycle over time. That's no slower than Moore's Law and if the "ultimate flexible" boxes drift toward packing as many transistors as possible into the box.... announce it. Not the notion of pre-announcing; that isn't as important.


Moore's Law is bunk .. haven't you heard? "Likely to drift"? Dude, we're already there. iCrap is the main focus for Apple now. Pro apps and Mac PCs are taking a backseat as there is more money in selling iCrap and iAccessories. It's a painful reality.

Considering Apple is still selling old technology for the same price it did when it was released last year and knowing how fast technology out today degrades in $ value the moment you click on the "Confirm Purchase" button, it's almost.. I say "almost" a sham. It's a good thing Apple has GREAT marketing, a good OS and is selling iCrap like hotcakes to the masses or else their MAC PC development cycle would help put them in deep crap with their investors.

Icaras
Jun 24, 2010, 12:31 PM
from what I've seen today all over the news about the serious iphone 4 problems, maybe it's a good idea they didn't rush the new Mac pro out. :rolleyes:

Yea, who knows, we might have ended up with serious wifi issues just by holding the Mac Pro handles! :eek: :p

Also, I want Apple to release bumpers for the Mac Pro.

CWallace
Jun 24, 2010, 12:58 PM
Isn't much of the various delays to Mac hardware refreshes been due to Intel being unable to ship sufficient quantity to Apple (and other OEMs)? Be it hexacore Xeons, quad-core i7s or dual-core mobile i5s, I've been reading about shipping delays and allocations.

So in the end, what is worse? No update, or an update you can't buy for weeks/months because Apple is waiting for components?

Deepshade
Jun 24, 2010, 01:07 PM
Isn't much of the various delays to Mac hardware refreshes been due to Intel being unable to ship sufficient quantity to Apple (and other OEMs)? Be it hexacore Xeons, quad-core i7s or dual-core mobile i5s, I've been reading about shipping delays and allocations.

So in the end, what is worse? No update, or an update you can't buy for weeks/months because Apple is waiting for components?

That was until the end of this month
So no excuses now
Hexcores have been available in enough quantity for ANY R&D work
They've had over a year to redesign the case
Leave a gap of a week or two (max) after the new iPhone
and anything else is down to Apple not giving a flying figg about its professional market

gri
Jun 24, 2010, 01:08 PM
Only problem with that is that without OSX you don't have iDevices. You just don't. So either they HAVE to maintain OSX on some level (and I think we all agree it's pretty woeful right now), or they allow you to develop on Windows and/or Linux. If the OSX ecosystem dries up, so does everything else. They've got to do something.

They will fade out Mac OS and will phase in iOS also for iBooks and iMacs...

chaosbunny
Jun 24, 2010, 01:09 PM
Isn't much of the various delays to Mac hardware refreshes been due to Intel being unable to ship sufficient quantity to Apple (and other OEMs)? Be it hexacore Xeons, quad-core i7s or dual-core mobile i5s, I've been reading about shipping delays and allocations.

So in the end, what is worse? No update, or an update you can't buy for weeks/months because Apple is waiting for components?

No update is worse of course. The other way you can plan your purchase and you know what you will get and approximately when it will come. You can buy now if you need it now if you know it will be shipping in 2-3 months. When an update might happen every week it's a game of luck.

They will fade out Mac OS and will phase in iOS also for iBooks and iMacs...

Aww, stop it, stop it! I don't want to have to use Windows as my main OS.

mBox
Jun 24, 2010, 01:12 PM
Gets worse when you read stuff like this:
http://www.ipodnn.com/articles/10/06/24/mac.likely.to.be.dwarfed.by.iphone.sales/

Ive been holding off on new purchases (fiscal year for upgrade).
I honestly have above 5 digits to spend of my companies money and Ive been holding off for months now.
I think last time around there was updates at August/Fall, but its looking bleak.
It has to be MacPro or no go for us.
In a way, if Adobe opted out of supporting the Mac, we would have had no choice but to move full on Windows...ugghhh :P

nanofrog
Jun 24, 2010, 01:48 PM
Isn't much of the various delays to Mac hardware refreshes been due to Intel being unable to ship sufficient quantity to Apple (and other OEMs)?
Actually, No.

The information that's been available didn't distinguish between Direct and Distributor channels of supply. Those that buy enough quantity they can deal with Intel directly have had parts. It's those that don't, are forced to buy through Distributor channels, and that's where the shortage information was true.

The reason is actually simple. Those that buy directly from Intel do so via contracts (includes language for quantities, shipping schedules, and of course price). If Intel fails to meet these obligations, they're penalized (also included in the contract's language). So to make sure this doesn't happen, they'll fullfill their contract orders first before shipping any parts to the Distributors Intel uses. As the fabs aren't at 100% capacity (takes time) the day they start mass production, all the parts are used to fill contract purchases first. Anything past this, will be sent off to distributors. But as the quantity isn't high enough, they tend to have to wait before they get any supply.

Ultimately, it's all about the $$$.

xgman
Jun 24, 2010, 02:19 PM
Yea, who knows, we might have ended up with serious wifi issues just by holding the Mac Pro handles! :eek: :p

Also, I want Apple to release bumpers for the Mac Pro.

first good laugh I've had today. :D

ValSalva
Jun 24, 2010, 02:38 PM
So in the end, what is worse? No update, or an update you can't buy for weeks/months because Apple is waiting for components?

I understand this sentiment but I'd rather have an announcement about a product for which I have to wait. At least I'd have some control in purchasing decisions. It's the unknown possible wait of 2 weeks, 2 months, or longer that is the killer.

strausd
Jun 24, 2010, 02:55 PM
I understand this sentiment but I'd rather have an announcement about a product for which I have to wait. At least I'd have some control in purchasing decisions. It's the unknown possible wait of 2 weeks, 2 months, or longer that is the killer.

Everybody would rather know when a new product is coming out, no matter what the product is. The problem is that Apple just likes to keep it a secret. And even though we all want to have an approximate date on the new Mac Pro release, chances are they won't give us one. It's been awhile since their last keynote for a computer. They will probably just do a silent update when it comes out.

xgman
Jun 24, 2010, 03:01 PM
I wonder if they ever did decide to discontinue the Mac Pro or any other line, would they even let anyone know? Has this ever happened?

ValSalva
Jun 24, 2010, 04:50 PM
Everybody would rather know when a new product is coming out, no matter what the product is. The problem is that Apple just likes to keep it a secret. And even though we all want to have an approximate date on the new Mac Pro release, chances are they won't give us one. It's been awhile since their last keynote for a computer. They will probably just do a silent update when it comes out.

Agreed. If the Mac Mini had a silent update for such a big change it is likely that the Mac Pro will be updated silently too. As far as Apple letting us know ahead of time: It's not in their DNA. One can hope though :rolleyes:

Octobot
Jun 24, 2010, 07:08 PM
Yes definitely a silent launch a la mac mini..
New case design etc.
-
We won't know what hit us.. as I doubt we'll see any leaks.

Any Tuesday now.. in the mean time the other threads will flourish.

RT2020
Jun 24, 2010, 09:39 PM
I wonder if they ever did decide to discontinue the Mac Pro or any other line, would they even let anyone know? Has this ever happened?

No... they would probably keep selling the old model for a very long time, until most of the industry just looses interest (except for a few fans on here). They will do this so Steve doesn't have to go up and make an announcement that he personally knows people don't need real computers for productive tasks anymore. Meanwhile, they will release a bunch of itoys.

Oh wait...this is already happening

deconstruct60
Jun 24, 2010, 11:00 PM
No... they would probably keep selling the old model for a very long time,


No they wouldn't. Historically have not done that under the second reign of Jobs. When the Newtons got Steve'd , they were gone. Cube shot dead, gone. More recently XRaid. Disappeared with a web page saying go buy 3rd party. If the central politboro decides the product is not an Apple focus and hasn't been classified an "up and coming hobby" it gets terminated.

You are confusing the 30" Cinema display with that Jobs has historically done in most cases. The 30" display is either locked up in some contract where they have to keep selling it. Or is waiting on some technology that hasn't hit the right introduction factors yet ( not sure what waiting on 10-bit color , LEDs , better IPS ... all pretty much in place at this point). Perhaps it is the return of Apple Display Connector (ADC) reincarnated as light peak.


Also may be confusing classifying the situation as milking Macs as a cash cow. Still have to feed the cow to get milk.



Meanwhile, they will release a bunch of itoys.

Which get released on 12 month cycles.
It isn't the length of cycles, it the regularity of them. 2x or 1x a year neither is particularly indicative of focus (or lack there of) in and of itself.

deconstruct60
Jun 24, 2010, 11:24 PM
Actually, No.


Perhaps not so simple.


The reason is actually simple. Those that buy directly from Intel do so via contracts (includes language for quantities, shipping schedules, and of course price).

If Intel tells Apple in December-Junuarary under NDA that the 3620 and 3640 will ship in July why would Apple buy a contract to buy a years worth of 3530 and 3550 from March '10 to March '11 ? Especially, If told better tech at effectively same price is coming if just sit for 4 months? Isn't that the same thing that many are moaning about here ("don't want to buy old decrepit tech if replaced in a matter of weeks." )

Even with those contracts none of the large vendors completely dumped their 5500/3500 line ups. Most just increased from 6-10 models to 10-14.

Likewise if Intel finds out in November-December can't release all of the 32nm products under contract at the same time .... why wouldn't they hold some of them back until have more fabs running closer to 100% ? For example the core i3-550 didn't ship for 4 months after the others in Janurary.
http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Core_i3/Intel-Core%20i3-550%20CM80616003174AJ%20(BX80616I3550%20-%20BXC80616I3550).html

[ or don't ship white iPhone4 until get basic iPhone4 production running close to meeting to demand. ]

Apple has $40B in the bank. If decide want to wait a bit to get a better contract, they can. Apple getting a better contract doesn't mean their customers in general get a worse deal. On the contrary over the course of the year most of the customers will get a better deal if they wait.



Ultimately, it's all about the $$$.

Much more than hitting some arbitrary date just because the earth circled the sun exactly one time.

Vylen
Jun 24, 2010, 11:31 PM
It isn't the length of cycles, it the regularity of them. 2x or 1x a year neither is particularly indicative of focus (or lack there of) in and of itself.

+1

Especially true with the quick evolution of technology these days. Some of the changes in tech these days would've taken years before in comparison.

nanofrog
Jun 25, 2010, 05:34 AM
If Intel tells Apple in December-January under NDA that the 3620 and 3640 will ship in July why would Apple buy a contract to buy a years worth of 3530 and 3550 from March '10 to March '11?
They buy parts spaced over time (lots), not all at once, and they pay over time as well.

Now in cases of multiple parts, including those not out, but a date is given to vendors by Intel (NDA or otherwise), they plan accordingly (1. select P/N's desired, 2. quantities purchased). For example, they could buy W3680's now, and go with other hex cores if they chose once they ship (not likely, as it's too many parts, but possible).

As per the newer 35xx parts, they can chose to use those to replace the existing 35xx parts in their respective positions (i.e. base and mid point Quads). So the 2010 base could use the 3530 and mid point Quad with the 3550 giving users a clock increase (and are already available as well).

Even with those contracts none of the large vendors completely dumped their 5500/3500 line ups. Most just increased from 6-10 models to 10-14.
They couldn't, as there's not a full line of hex core SP parts (only the W3680 right now). DP systems they can chose to use either 55xx or 56xx (fits the same boards) to give price points.

For example, Dell offers the L5503 yet, as it still has a place in the market. But they also offer 5680's in the same system (Precision T5500).

Likewise if Intel finds out in November-December can't release all of the 32nm products under contract at the same time .... why wouldn't they hold some of them back until have more fabs running closer to 100% ? For example the core i3-550 didn't ship for 4 months after the others in January.
It wasn't scheduled to release with the others. Intel tends to release a faster part after the initial launch of a line, and this case was no different.

The W3580 is a good example. The time frame was longer than the i3 550, but it still released after the initial launch (fastest at that time was the W3570).

Apple has $40B in the bank. If decide want to wait a bit to get a better contract, they can.
They can, but it's not in their best interest to do so. There's several reasons for this.

Sales Period (shorter times means less profits, so release delays mean lost $$$)
Competition (lost sales can occur if the product release is notably later than other vendors)
Intel deals on quantity, and gives decent pricing to their direct channel partners (it's noticeable, especially when compared to the Distributor channel = volatile; Price stability figures into this)


Even with the fact Macs are meant to run OS X, which is unique to Macs, they're not entirely immune to things like competition, or quarterly sales figures (shareholders can be picky about such things for some strange reason :p).

thermodynamic
Jun 26, 2010, 07:40 AM
http://www.apple.com/macpro/

It bothers me that apple still lists this as new. Does apple think we're stupid? Are they just rubbing it in our face? I understand that apple is in the position of power and we are free to take our money elsewhere so I'm not debating that but what would the reasoning be for this type of disrespect? I'm not suggesting that apple owes anyone anything but should there be some level of respect and common decency? Do they think they are fooling anyone by "Introducing the new Mac Pro..."

Maybe they're being lazy. They accuse other companies of being lazy, and never mind lack of updated peripherals for the Mac Pro, the lack of a new Mac Pro while the other model lines get rapid refreshes is certainly a claim of indolence...

ValSalva
Jun 26, 2010, 08:41 AM
Maybe they're being lazy. They accuse other companies of being lazy, and never mind lack of updated peripherals for the Mac Pro, the lack of a new Mac Pro while the other model lines get rapid refreshes is certainly a claim of indolence...

I agree that it is lazy on Apple's part to leave the web site unchanged and it is a good point that they've accused Adobe of being lazy. Reality distortion field on full power :rolleyes:

nanofrog
Jun 26, 2010, 01:24 PM
I agree that it is lazy on Apple's part to leave the web site unchanged and it is a good point that they've accused Adobe of being lazy. Reality distortion field on full power :rolleyes:
In Apple's case, I'm not sure it's laziness, but rather an issue of development time/availability. This isn't an excuse, but rather an explanation, as Apple could hire on additional personnel to deal with the problem (currently it seems that they've too few developers being spread across too many projects). There's been no indication of a hiring spree to counter the additional projects/products that have been added (nothing on their job listings anyway).

So it seems like a situation of too few developers on too many projects = delays (and in the pressure to get a product out the door, the validation testing is compromised = poor user experience <bugs>). Given the issues with recent products, this seems to be the case IMO. In simple terms, it makes Apple out to be the "good guys" in the situation.

This doesn't stop them from making accusations against companies such as Adobe, on the presumption Adobe has sufficient personnel to deal with the development process. Apple would differentiate this from their issues IMO (inadequate personnel). This may seem like semantics, but to Apple's marketing dept., this is important (though not explained, as it would indicate there's a "problem" within Apple = personnel shortage).

Ultimately, it's a matter of perspective, but most companies are willing to manipulate the facts/information in a manner to make them out as the "good guys".