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nanofrog

macrumors G4
May 6, 2008
11,719
3
Not sure if Intel is going to shrink Lynnfield and be very aggressive with SandyBridge at same time.
Intel will almost certainly break parts (Sandy Bridge) releases into sections in a Top Down methodology though, starting with the higher performance parts as they'll recover R&D faster that way (same fashion that Nehalem P/N's were released, starting with LGA1366 parts, followed by the consumer oriented LGA1156 parts).

This would prevent competition/collision between the Lynnfield and Sandy Bridge lineups, and keep profits flowing (new parts for vendors to base respective segments on).
 

harveypooka

macrumors 65816
Feb 24, 2004
1,291
0
Yeah it is late, but not really all that late (even more so given the gap in the 3600 line up). If Apple was going to kill something they'd just remove it from the website. (e.g., the XRaid. )

I'd say over 400 days is pretty damned late.

The longer it takes for the iMac and Mac Pro to be updated, the less likely people who check the time since updates will buy, right?
 

jamesedward

macrumors member
Jun 22, 2010
34
0
London
Estimated price increase with hexcore mac pro

So I was looking at getting a custom Mac Pro with this spec

One 2.66GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
8GB (4x2GB)
640GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
ATI Radeon HD 4870 512MB
One 18x SuperDrive
Apple LED Cinema Display (24" flat panel)
AirPort Extreme Wi-Fi Card with 802.11n

the cost is somewhere around £3000, so my question is if i wait for the update, (witch is rather hard to do) will the hexcore bump up the price?

obviously i appreciate this is speculation, thanks.
 

ValSalva

macrumors 68040
Jun 26, 2009
3,783
259
Burpelson AFB
So I was looking at getting a custom Mac Pro with this spec

One 2.66GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
8GB (4x2GB)
640GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
ATI Radeon HD 4870 512MB
One 18x SuperDrive
Apple LED Cinema Display (24" flat panel)
AirPort Extreme Wi-Fi Card with 802.11n

the cost is somewhere around £3000, so my question is if i wait for the update, (witch is rather hard to do) will the hexcore bump up the price?

obviously i appreciate this is speculation, thanks.

Apple has bumped the base configuration on the new models of the MacBook Pro and Mac Mini. So I'd be willing to bet there will be a price bump on the next Mac Pro :(
 

jamesedward

macrumors member
Jun 22, 2010
34
0
London
do you think that Base config with hexcore would be better that up'd 4core

.....( i kinda see the oblivious answers to my own question in front of me )

never the less,
 

you39

macrumors regular
Mar 21, 2010
157
0
So I was looking at getting a custom Mac Pro with this spec

One 2.66GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
8GB (4x2GB)
640GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
ATI Radeon HD 4870 512MB
One 18x SuperDrive
Apple LED Cinema Display (24" flat panel)
AirPort Extreme Wi-Fi Card with 802.11n

the cost is somewhere around £3000, so my question is if i wait for the update, (witch is rather hard to do) will the hexcore bump up the price?

obviously i appreciate this is speculation, thanks.

As others mentioned in one or more of the other threads... there's not necessarily going to be a hexacore in the new low-end model. A quadcore with more GHz at the same price is possible.
 

ValSalva

macrumors 68040
Jun 26, 2009
3,783
259
Burpelson AFB
do you think that Base config with hexcore would be better that up'd 4core

.....( i kinda see the oblivious answers to my own question in front of me )

never the less,

It probably will be better than the base configuration on the current model. After all it has been 15+ months since the last update.

If you're a pro and can't wait the current Mac Pro is still be plenty of machine. If you can wait it's highly likely the price to performance ratio will be at its highest in the months right after a new Mac Pro release. It all depends on what you do, what you need, and how long you are willing/can wait.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,298
3,893
As others mentioned in one or more of the other threads... there's not necessarily going to be a hexacore in the new low-end model. A quadcore with more GHz at the same price is possible.

There is a mix of 6 and 4 in the upgraded 5600 series (http://ark.intel.com/ProductCollection.aspx?series=47915) . The other boost that a 4 core will get is that the L3 cache has been bumped to 12MB (from 8MB). Almost had to for 6 cores, but that leaves 4 core models with a even more space to work with. Even more so when in single core, "Turbo" mode.

In the base, better , best mix , only the "better" and "best" likely to get a 6 core. However, right now there is no Intel offering to fill the "better" price slot for the SP box.
 

strausd

macrumors 68030
Jul 11, 2008
2,998
1
Texas
So I was looking at getting a custom Mac Pro with this spec

One 2.66GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
8GB (4x2GB)
640GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
ATI Radeon HD 4870 512MB
One 18x SuperDrive
Apple LED Cinema Display (24" flat panel)
AirPort Extreme Wi-Fi Card with 802.11n

the cost is somewhere around £3000, so my question is if i wait for the update, (witch is rather hard to do) will the hexcore bump up the price?

obviously i appreciate this is speculation, thanks.

Nobody knows for sure.

If they just swamp a quad-core for a hexa-core, then there is no reason for them to raise the prices besides wanting more of a profit. If you look at Intel's site and look at the prices for the xeon 5500s and 5600s, there is hardly a difference at all. The difference starts at like 10$ and the biggest is only 50$. Some people have said that a base 12-core system will be $6,000 and go up from there for faster clock speed, but this is total bull. So like I said, if they just put in a hexa for a quad, the prices shouldn't go up much at all.

However, if they add new GPUs, which they will, that could cause the prices to go up a little. The thing is that these will definitely be better than the current ones so it might be worth it. However, even with a GPU upgrade, the prices shouldn't change much, or at all for just the GPU depending on which one.

As for a case redesign, this could cause the price to go up depending on what they do. Some say they will add 2.5 inch bays, but this is more of a wish than anything. They will most likely add a black Apple logo if they do anything to the case. If that is all they do and no major things inside the case, then this shouldn't cause the price to go up either.

Generally the people who think the price will go up think it will be caused by the hexa-cores. However, this is not accurate at all.

These links will show Intel's estimated price point for each CPU.
Xeon 5500
Xeon 5600

Comparing the 5570 and the 5670, there is only a $54 difference. Also, this would be the fastest clock speed that they would put in a dual CPU MP.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,298
3,893
I'd say over 400 days is pretty damned late.

On a year ( 365) calendar, it isn't that late. Also Apple shipped about a month "early" last time ( a month before chips were shipping in quantity). So a more pragmatic date to start from is the XServe launch date. XServe is about 3 months late.

A tech project that is a one or two months late .... happens all the time.
[This is one reason Apple likes to keep stuff a secret.... when their projects run late then magically Apple ships on time because don't kick off leak until closer to the end. ]

Intel is playing a bit of a game with their 32nm releases. They are being aggressive in part to "prove" AMD is behind the curve. So they release when can't really match up to demand. That will also allow them to squeeze better deals out of customers who "have to be" first to market. Those customers don't have any leverage. If Apple wants better prices they will wait.


The longer it takes for the iMac and Mac Pro to be updated, the less likely people who check the time since updates will buy, right?

Wrong. At least in the case of the Mac Pro. Businesses want a regular, predicable changes to the systems. They don't want to see churning prices flopping around every couple of months. Since the procurement process is often long ( approval , getting the budget , etc.) a year isn't that long. If have the budget to buy that money isn't going to disappear if wait a bit longer. (if a use it or loose it context perhaps) Similarly, if buying every 3-4 years then the machine present at end of that 3-4 years is substantially faster; so they buy it. If the refresh window is moving around a bit sometimes you get an extra jump and sometimes you don't.

Sure there are subset that are at the edge of some window or want to game the timings for maximum effect, but they are not the bulk of the market.


It only matters if the folks walk away and buy another vendor's product. Apple should be concerned that folks buy in Quarter 2 and not in Quarter 3? Phefff.... Apple has buckets of money coming in the door constantly right now. Last thing they are worried about is how to juice the numbers between some quarter right now.

The server box market isn't like the discount consumer mini tower box market. The Mac Pro is up in the server box market area. Some folks have some whacked expectations that Mac Pro refresh should be in the sub-year frequency range. Nor do all of the customer evaporate in two months.


Even in the consumer market most folks buy when they need it. Or buy at some external driven event ( Christmas). Only a minority are sitting on sites like macrumors checking the buyers guide every week.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,298
3,893
Intel will almost certainly break parts (Sandy Bridge) releases into sections in a Top Down methodology though,

It is not how they break it into section but how fast they want to drive the roll out.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/di...dy_Bridge_Aggressively_on_Desktop_Market.html

If there are 32nm Lynnfield parts out there that are cheaper ( because don't have "extra" Sandy Bridge stuff like IGP ) they will get more design wins. With no 32nm Lynnfield parts then more folks have to buy Intel IGP (they don't have a choice. ) If Intel wants to ram their graphics down everyone's throat then the graphics-less parts will disappear.

If they are going to be more balanced in their offerings (integrated graphics as well as not ) then yes more profitable (smaller) Lynnfield offerings make sense.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,298
3,893
I hate to say it, but I agree. All signs are pointing to the demise of the proline. Here's some of my reasons why I feel that way.

1. They are really slow on updating their MacPro line.

Since Intel is only major updating the Xeon processors on yearly basis and the server class motherboard designs are generally on a 2 year update cycle ( with minor tweaks between years for the Xeon updates ). What is so slow.

Increasing the Mac Pro is a server class hardware. That means in general the update rate is going to slow down. Apple had to synch up to Intel Xeon since flipping over from G5's but it has been long enough that release schedules have synchronized to a large extent now.

So the whole should update on "236" day average that macrumors buyers guide hints at is bogus. That period of time is not grounded in the parts or the designs being leveraged.

Apple released machines for the Core-i mobile laptop market after everyone else did. MBP is now top selling mac option on the online Apple store. So much for have to release on same day Intel drops a press release.



Go to that section of the website and I swear you can hear crickets.

Bluntly, there are lots of folks here on macrumors that hear exactly what they want to hear.




2. They haven't stayed on top of development of Final Cut Studio. It's really out of date compared to Premiere CS5. No support for 64bit yet?

The Finder took how long to go 64-bit? Does that mean the Apple had lost its commitment to the Finder ? For large applications there are lots of internal moving parts. It can very well be that some internal framework made a bunch of bonehead 32-bit assumptions. Unraveling that takes time if have fixed resources.

Apple has also cut the price of FCS how many times over its lifetime ? Apple isn't necessarily going to the upper stratospheric niche markets.







3. They discontinued Shake a few years ago saying they were working on a replacement. That replacement has yet to materialize.

Shake wasn't originally a Mac program. Didn't release on Mac OS X until after Apple bought them if recall correctly. That isn't exactly the most representative software case to form an argument over.

Separate compositing software just may not have been worth the effort.
It is not like Apple has banned 3rd parties from filling this gap. In fact, if want a competitive market for software offerings it is more of a hindrance if the systems' vendor is competing in the market than if they don't. Eight years ago Apple had to jump in because lots of vendors were exiting or at least lowering priorities. It is actually the sign of a death spiral market when there are fewer and fewer software vendors over time and the system vendor has to acquire them to prop up the market.

For narrow markets with high priced software it often doesn't pay to be single platform ( where Apple was taking Shake). The customers know they are being tracked into a single vendor setup, which typically just gets worse price wise over time.



4. Most of their revenues are generated by i type of products. To maintain their momentum and competitiveness in the phone and personal product line, they will need to focus all of their attention on them.

This is yet another one of those emperor wears no clothes memes that are floating around. The mac line was never heavily skewed to the upper end of the line. There was always a primary effort to get out a more personal focused product. And when Apple focused on sky high stuff ( e.g., the $1000-2000 Newtons) they were usually busts.


5. Most serious content development is happening on the "other" platforms such as Linux. Mac is still a player in smaller studios,

Linux? Can see Linux as being dominate in render farms. Mac systems don't really compete as pure computational nodes. What seriously is lacking on Mac OS systems is software where can do the "front end" (user interface , display) on the Mac system and then ship the computational workload out to more heterogeneous (or computationally focused ) boxes.

The notion of putting the cluster in a box to be used by a single person or very small workgroup.... of course that only plays well are small shops.



7. You get far more power for your dollar on PC. Especially if you build it yourself.

If you do it yourself also means you are responsible for support. (chase down individual warranty providers. chase down glitches , etc. etc. )

It isn't really more power, it is you can make far more many tradeoffs in WinPC ecosystem. For example, Trade case , power supply , ease of maintenance for more GHz. If want a completed and suppurted system from a top 8 system vendor then the costs aren't all that dissimilar if comparing equivalent devices. ( not one vendor's mini eco tower to another's top line model, but apples-to-apples comparisons. )


The All-in-one has been taking over the PC market too though. The whole "screwdriver shop" system vendor notion is gradually going away. It has happened much faster on the Mac side since Apple controls it, but there is little to indicate that they are not out in front of a general trend. Perhaps too far in some cases but generally that is where things are going.
 

PeterQVenkman

macrumors 68020
Mar 4, 2005
2,023
0
Shake wasn't originally a Mac program. Didn't release on Mac OS X until after Apple bought them if recall correctly. That isn't exactly the most representative software case to form an argument over.

I think Shake is an indication of Apple buying into a market, and then rethinking their investment. "Buyer's remorse," if you will. ;) I see companies like Autodesk and wonder how in the hell people run a business like that. I think Steve Jobs looked at some invoice and said "Shake? What's this crap? Cancel it."

I also wonder what Apple thought their pro customers would think about their decision to take a program that was basically an industry standard, require you to buy a mac to use it (no kidding, linux copies required a mac pro purchase at one point!) and then throw it in the dungeon.

They made no friends in the compositing world.


For narrow markets with high priced software it often doesn't pay to be single platform ( where Apple was taking Shake). The customers know they are being tracked into a single vendor setup, which typically just gets worse price wise over time.

Or in the case of shake, the customers watch their software investment evaporate. I would compare it to an alternative universe where Autodesk bought softimage and canceled it. I just don't see the point of why they bought it in the first place. Apple wasn't competing in the market, bought into it, then left users in the lurch in order to exit it.

Steve probably had someone's family killed over that debacle.

The All-in-one has been taking over the PC market too though. The whole "screwdriver shop" system vendor notion is gradually going away.

Are people actually buying those all in one gateways and HP touchsmart PCs? God have mercy.
 

nanofrog

macrumors G4
May 6, 2008
11,719
3
It is not how they break it into section but how fast they want to drive the roll out.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/di...dy_Bridge_Aggressively_on_Desktop_Market.html

If there are 32nm Lynnfield parts out there that are cheaper ( because don't have "extra" Sandy Bridge stuff like IGP ) they will get more design wins. With no 32nm Lynnfield parts then more folks have to buy Intel IGP (they don't have a choice. ) If Intel wants to ram their graphics down everyone's throat then the graphics-less parts will disappear.

If they are going to be more balanced in their offerings (integrated graphics as well as not ) then yes more profitable (smaller) Lynnfield offerings make sense.
A balanced approach makes the most sense though. It allows them a broad range of products, so as not to miss out on a particular segment (i.e. Sandy Bridge's Integrated Graphics in the lower cost systems, or those that don't need it, vs. Lynnfield + separate GPU for additional graphics performance).

From the Roadmaps they've published, it suggests this is the approach that they're aiming for IMO. Granted, exact release dates do fluctuate from the official date, but it's usually not that far off (say ~2 months if they've over estimated quanties the fabs can actually produce on schedule compared to the intended schedule; real vs. target).
 

manhattanboy

macrumors 6502a
Jan 25, 2007
960
370
In ur GF's bed, Oh no he didn't!
I hate to say it, but I agree. All signs are pointing to the demise of the proline. Here's some of my reasons why I feel that way.

6. Adobe and Apple's relationship is strained. Adobe is the reason that most designers use the Mac. Take Adobe out of the equation and they will flock to Windows7.

7. You get far more power for your dollar on PC. Especially if you build it yourself. If MS keeps making in-roads on their OS development, there will be less of a reason to stay with Mac. Windows7 actually looks good. And that is saying a lot from someone who has always hated Windows.

And before you start flaming my post, consider that I've been a loyal Mac user since 1993.

I totally agree... Most of the Pro apps that I am now wanting are PC apps, and while its nice to run bootcamp, for literally half the price of a Pro rig from Apple, I can get something faster in the PC land! And btw I have been a Mac user since '84.

I just remembered. Let's not forget about the Air, which is also way overdue for an update as well. The guys over at the MBA forums seem like they're suffering just as much as we are :(
As an MBA user, I am actually quite happy. My 2 year old MBA has held its own quite nicely since rev. C added absolutely nothing performance wise. I suspect, rev. D will finally increase performance, but probably marginally as Apple has shown that they will not move past the C2D chips. Just to put some perspective on how old these chips are, my ~4 year old iMac has a C2D...

pretty nasty to start a thread titled like this in times like these. ;P
I believe that was his original point! Shame on you for flaming him into submission. If Apple is going to state that "Here is te brand new iMac..." then having him say that in the title only proves how crappy their false advertising is.
 

manhattanboy

macrumors 6502a
Jan 25, 2007
960
370
In ur GF's bed, Oh no he didn't!
However, the MBA is dead last over in the Mac Store. If I was Apple I'd wait a bit long to see just how much the iPad killed off the MBA user base (i.e., how many were really primarily buying on weight , smallest size, and just simple productivity on the road apps. ) I suspect the iPad is cannibalizing a sizable fraction that former market.

I for one totally avoided the iPad because I have an MBA. Can the iPad do Photoshop, Illustrator, Indesign, Dreamweaver, and Flash programming? Office 2012 on it rocks as well. Then there's the iChatting, Hulu, X11 apps, etc. Apple has crippled the iPad beyond any real usefulness. Everything the iPad does, I can do on my phone, which conveniently fits into my pocket. If Apple wants to kill the MBA, fine. The PC w/ linux bootable options are looking better and better every single day. Not to mention Hackintosh....
 

harveypooka

macrumors 65816
Feb 24, 2004
1,291
0
the cost is somewhere around £3000, so my question is if i wait for the update, (witch is rather hard to do) will the hexcore bump up the price?

If you're spending that kind of money and can wait, as the Pro is a "thing", I'd wait.

Mind you, the Pro was rumoured to be updated in January, then March, then July. We be running outta time in July.

Since MR went iOS Rumours we hear nothing! :(
 

PaulD-UK

macrumors 6502a
Oct 23, 2009
541
253
I think Steve Jobs looked at some invoice and said "Shake? What's this crap? Cancel it."
Hi
I always thought he bought Shake to give* the source code to Pixar, who needed to develop it faster than Nothing Real had the resources to do... ;)

*Give = sell to avoid breaching competetion/anti-competition legislation - anybody else could buy the code as well.
 

harveypooka

macrumors 65816
Feb 24, 2004
1,291
0
Do you have a source you can link?

If not, it's only speculation as the rest of the potential reasons listed (multiple threads). ;)

Ssssh, it's the inter-dimensional door I was talking about earlier!

If you talk about it, it vanishes.
 

chaosbunny

macrumors 68020
What they are suppose to rewrite the product description page several times a year ?

Why not? Log into CMS, delete "new" after 6 months, logout of CMS. Shouldn't take more than a minute. ;)

Right now, I (want to) believe that they are redesigning the Mac Pro. I don't think it will be discontinued. After all, Apple wouldn't want to depend on Windows boxes to deliver the HD content for its iProducts.
 

xgman

macrumors 603
Aug 6, 2007
5,672
1,378
Everyone here should email sjobs@ and ask are they discontinuing the Mac Pro or something like that and maybe he will respond to one. I don't actually think they are, but we need to get his attention for a response of some sort. maybe if he gets enough emails he might quack, not that it will change anything . .
 
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