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deeddawg

macrumors G5
Jun 14, 2010
12,248
6,396
US
@SGMD1: Thanks for the link, at first glance through the full report it seems they did normalize.

There's still a bit of uncertainty as to the root cause (glass strength differences or design differences since the screen edges are more exposed than on the 3GS), so it's difficult to draw a specific conclusion, but on the face of it they seem to have done a decent job on their statistical analysis.
 
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ZipZap

macrumors 603
Dec 14, 2007
6,080
1,448
Exactly. I thought it was common knowledge as well but I keep seeing posts here referring to iPhone Gorilla Glass...hence this thread

Perhaps the IP1 had it...but no other iphone has gorilla glass. Until there is a comment to the contrary from Apple or Corning, the correct answer is:

IPHONES DO NOT USE GORILLA GLASS.
 

PNutts

macrumors 601
Jul 24, 2008
4,874
357
Pacific Northwest, US
404 Significance not found

Agreed. The conjecture in this thread is staggering. And by "staggering" I mean staggeringly uninteresting like a Dr. Pepper / Mr. PiBB thread.

Can't we just all agree that Gorilla Glass is tough, yet beautiful?

Until there is a comment to the contrary from Apple or Corning, the correct answer is:

NOBODY KNOWS IF IPHONES USE GORILLA GLASS.

There, fixed that for 'ya.

Capture.PNG
 

Bobby Corwen

macrumors 68030
Jul 16, 2010
2,723
474
My post was in response to the word "damage." Scratches and smashes are both types of damage.

Yes but to what degree?

Damage can be great or small and the degree to which those two types of damage vary arguably puts them in different categories of damage.

One is slight and one is major.

Duh.
 

Jman13

macrumors 68000
Aug 7, 2011
1,570
277
Columbus, OH
The percentage of broken glass on the 4 does not neccessarily mean that the 4's glass isn't as tough. There are two things that contribute to broken glass on the 4/4S.

1) There are two sides of glass. Double the glass, double the chance of breakage, and the fact is if you drop a bare phone onto concrete, chances are you're going to land on one of the glass surfaces, where on earlier iPhones, it was less than 50% that you would actually impact the glass.

2) The glass on the 4/4S is raised about the structural frame of the phone. If you hit the ground, unless it lands on the side, you're going to impact the corner of the glass directly (well, directly except for a 1/16" plastic frame holder). This will dramatically increase the chance of a break. The 3G/3GS had the rounded beveled plastic edge before impacting glass, such that the phone would actually need to land more or less directly face down to cause a direct glass to concrete impact.
 

Bobby Corwen

macrumors 68030
Jul 16, 2010
2,723
474
The percentage of broken glass on the 4 does not neccessarily mean that the 4's glass isn't as tough. There are two things that contribute to broken glass on the 4/4S.

1) There are two sides of glass. Double the glass, double the chance of breakage, and the fact is if you drop a bare phone onto concrete, chances are you're going to land on one of the glass surfaces, where on earlier iPhones, it was less than 50% that you would actually impact the glass.

2) The glass on the 4/4S is raised about the structural frame of the phone. If you hit the ground, unless it lands on the side, you're going to impact the corner of the glass directly (well, directly except for a 1/16" plastic frame holder). This will dramatically increase the chance of a break. The 3G/3GS had the rounded beveled plastic edge before impacting glass, such that the phone would actually need to land more or less directly face down to cause a direct glass to concrete impact.

Agreed. I doubt it's much different glass for glass.

I'm sure when and if they replaced Corning it was something similar. The core development technology and process of making the glass is probably similar.
 

kdarling

macrumors P6
My favorite part is how Apple advertised the glass they used, as being made from the the "same materials used in helicopters and high-speed trains".

Well, that's vaguely true. They're all a type of aluminosilicate glass.

Of course, the helicopter version is at least 1/4" thick... and the trains? up to 3" thick !

You can just imagine an iPhone using 3" thick pieces of glass front and back :)
 

doboy

macrumors 68040
Jul 6, 2007
3,768
2,940
According to the biography of Steve Jobs, Corning stopped making Gorilla Glass because no one was using it and they didn't even have the manufacturing capacity until Steve demanded it from Corning. I have a feeling that Apple stopped using Gorilla Glass due to supply. Now that every phone company uses the Gorilla Glass, the glass may become the limiting factor in manufacturing the iPhone and also cost may have gone up from supply and demand. Also knowing Apple, they may want a process and manufacturing that they can control instead of relying on Corning.
 

cababah

macrumors 68000
Jun 11, 2009
1,891
504
SF Bay Area, CA
My favorite part is how Apple advertised the glass they used, as being made from the the "same materials used in helicopters and high-speed trains".

Well, that's vaguely true. They're all a type of aluminosilicate glass.

Of course, the helicopter version is at least 1/4" thick... and the trains? up to 3" thick !

You can just imagine an iPhone using 3" thick pieces of glass front and back :)

Oh, you mean just like how Apple advertises that they "make both the hardware and software" in computers when everybody knows they just outsource like everyone else to the major manufacturers like Samsung, etc?
 

atljogger

macrumors member
May 5, 2008
56
0
I'm amazed that people still claim iPhone uses Gorilla Glass. If you'd ever seen any of the countless videos on the subject you'd know Gorilla glass does not shatter. The iPhone screen does. Simple as that.


I was in an Apple Store yesterday buying a 4S and the Apple rep definitely told me it comes with Gorilla Glass. Just so you know where the misconceptions come from...
 

Skika

macrumors 68030
Mar 11, 2009
2,999
1,246
Oh, you mean just like how Apple advertises that they "make both the hardware and software" in computers when everybody knows they just outsource like everyone else to the major manufacturers like Samsung, etc?

They design both the hardware and the software. Better now? Or wait why i am responding to a troll.
 

b24pgg

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Jan 28, 2009
1,108
0
CA
I was in an Apple Store yesterday buying a 4S and the Apple rep definitely told me it comes with Gorilla Glass. Just so you know where the misconceptions come from...
Yeah, an Apple rep told me that no smartphone on the market could keep a charge longer than 2 days...

K3B6i.png
 

Beaverman3001

macrumors 6502a
May 20, 2010
554
55
The only iPhone out of the original, 3GS, and now 4S that I own that has gotten scratched was the original. Maybe there is a reason they switched :p
 

viewfly

macrumors 65816
May 1, 2009
1,263
24
This appears to be a common misconception.

iPhone iterations prior to the iPhone 4 used Corning Gorilla Glass, as evidenced on page 471 of the Steve Jobs biography.

With the iPhone 4, Apple began using Lens Technology International to manufacture their aluminosilicate glass. This was the supplier responsible for the white iPhone 4 delay.

Furthermore, Corning's Gorilla Glass website does not list the iPhone as a product.

Boy, this is flat out wrong that Apple's glass is somehow inferior. But it still persists. 'Gorilla Glass' is a brand name of Corning, like Kleenex, to some extent. The patents on this hard glass ran out 20 years ago, so the glass can be made by anyone. The key was making it in large sheets and quantities and then cutting it precisely. Not so much new in the material science part.

So you think that after Apple forced Corning to resurrect an unused product, so that Apple could buy the entire stock that Corning made (over 6 months before the iPhone was launched), they moved to an inferior product? They made a new business for Corning.

Corning doesn't list all of its glass users. Lens Technology International (LTI) is a coatings company, not a glass company. Apple doesn't list LTI as one of it's suppliers either (http://images.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/pdf/Apple_Supplier_List_2011.pdf). So the listing thing means nothing one way or the other.

Given enough stress, Gorilla Glass breaks. Corning states so.

Rest assured that your iPhone 4S has glass every bit as tough as any other phone. It is either made by Corning directly, or for Corning outsourced overseas, as is typical for them. Either way, it is basically alkali aluminosilicate glass and that define the scratch resistance of the material.

See the NYtimes article below and the others. The last is a Corning YouTube.


http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/09/gorilla-glass-the-smartphones-unsung-hero/

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print/767219.aspx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYaQnvVwStc&feature=player_embedded
 
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bigsexyy81

macrumors 6502a
May 2, 2010
626
0
1. Don't drop your phone.

2. Use a case.

You likely will never have to worry if it has Gorilla Glass if you follow these easy steps.
 

ZipZap

macrumors 603
Dec 14, 2007
6,080
1,448
Boy, this is flat out wrong that Apple's glass is somehow inferior. But it still persists. 'Gorilla Glass' is a brand name of Corning, like Kleenex, to some extent. The patents on this hard glass ran out 20 years ago, so the glass can be made by anyone. The key was making it in large sheets and quantities and then cutting it precisely. Not so much new in the material science part.

So you think that after Apple forced Corning to resurrect an unused product, so that Apple could buy the entire stock that Corning made (over 6 months before the iPhone was launched), they moved to an inferior product? They made a new business for Corning.

Corning doesn't list all of its glass users. Lens Technology International (LTI) is a coatings company, not a glass company. Apple doesn't list LTI as one of it's suppliers either (http://images.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/pdf/Apple_Supplier_List_2011.pdf). So the listing thing means nothing one way or the other.

Given enough stress, Gorilla Glass breaks. Corning states so.

Rest assured that your iPhone 4S has glass every bit as tough as any other phone. It is either made by Corning directly, or for Corning outsourced overseas, as is typical for them. Either way, it is basically alkali aluminosilicate glass and that define the scratch resistance of the material.

See the NYtimes article below and the others. The last is a Corning YouTube.


http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/09/gorilla-glass-the-smartphones-unsung-hero/

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print/767219.aspx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYaQnvVwStc&feature=player_embedded

Gorilla glass was used in iphone 1 as confirmed by Steve Jobs. There is no evidence that it has been used since, and plenty of breakage evidence to suggest not.

Nothing you have said confirms its usage beyond iphone 1. Apple may be using something similar but its seems to be inferrior.
 

viewfly

macrumors 65816
May 1, 2009
1,263
24
Gorilla glass was used in iphone 1 as confirmed by Steve Jobs. There is no evidence that it has been used since, and plenty of breakage evidence to suggest not.

Nothing you have said confirms its usage beyond iphone 1. Apple may be using something similar but its seems to be inferrior.

Nope, ZipZap, you have gotten this completely wrong. There is no evidence what you or the OP said that Apple has changed glass in the iPhone’s since the first one in 2007. NONE.

The implementation of the glass on the phone, may make it more prone to breakage than the 3GS or another smartphone (because the corners are more vulnerable). But scratch resistance is the same, since the glass is the same material since day 1.

But look at some numbers to counter the YouTube videos out there.

From SquareTrade’s reports, using a data base of 20,000 phones they found 3.9% of iPhone 4S users suffered broken glass compared to 2.1% from the iPhone 3GS. Yes, that is an 86% increase, but the numbers are small. HOWEVER, the data does not take into account that there are 2 glass surfaces to break instead of one, and that the glass is mounted differently in the 4 or 4S (i.e. the corner takes a hit more easily). In regard to scratching…no change…it is the same material. There is no distinction made as whether the front or back glass is damaged, or both in the report.

From SquareTrade’s report:

Not only has the scratchable surface area doubled, the new aluminosilicate Gorilla glass used in the iPhone 4 doesn't seem any less likely to break than previous models.

http://www.squaretrade.com/htm/pdf/SquareTrade_iPhone4_Study_1010.pdf

And from another SquareTrade report, regarding accident rates in general:

As reported in our previous study on the iPhone 4 glass, the early iPhone 4 data shows a higher accident rate compared to its predecessor. However, when we compare it to the Android manufacturers, it is higher, but not by much. We expect 13.8% of iPhone 4 owners to report an accident within a year, compared to 12.2% for both Motorola and HTC.

http://www.squaretrade.com/htm/pdf/cell_phone_comparison_study_nov_10.pdf

And in general malfunction, non-accident:

The iPhone 4 was the most reliable phone, with 2.1% projected to have a non-accident malfunction in the first 12 months The major makers of Android devices, Motorola and HTC, were also very reliable, with just 2.3% and 3.7%.
 

tallboarder

macrumors newbie
Feb 1, 2012
1
0
Boy, this is flat out wrong that Apple's glass is somehow inferior. But it still persists. 'Gorilla Glass' is a brand name of Corning, like Kleenex, to some extent. The patents on this hard glass ran out 20 years ago, so the glass can be made by anyone. The key was making it in large sheets and quantities and then cutting it precisely. Not so much new in the material science part.

So you think that after Apple forced Corning to resurrect an unused product, so that Apple could buy the entire stock that Corning made (over 6 months before the iPhone was launched), they moved to an inferior product? They made a new business for Corning.

Corning doesn't list all of its glass users. Lens Technology International (LTI) is a coatings company, not a glass company. Apple doesn't list LTI as one of it's suppliers either (http://images.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/pdf/Apple_Supplier_List_2011.pdf). So the listing thing means nothing one way or the other.

Given enough stress, Gorilla Glass breaks. Corning states so.

Rest assured that your iPhone 4S has glass every bit as tough as any other phone. It is either made by Corning directly, or for Corning outsourced overseas, as is typical for them. Either way, it is basically alkali aluminosilicate glass and that define the scratch resistance of the material.

See the NYtimes article below and the others. The last is a Corning YouTube.


http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/09/gorilla-glass-the-smartphones-unsung-hero/

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print/767219.aspx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYaQnvVwStc&feature=player_embedded

Apple in their supplier list http://images.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/pdf/Apple_Supplier_List_2011.pdf lists Lens One Technology(Shenzhen)Co.,Ltd (http://www.szlens.com/English/index.asp) as one of the suppliers. Perhaps this is actually their new glass supplier. In the company's web site it says they make glass windows and PMMA windows for mobile phones and the company being in close proximity to Shenzhen makes more sense from a supply chain perspective. I don't think Lens Technology International (LTI) as mentioned earlier is the right company.
 

allmIne

macrumors 6502a
Sep 17, 2008
771
0
United Kingdom
Yes but to what degree?

Damage can be great or small and the degree to which those two types of damage vary arguably puts them in different categories of damage.

One is slight and one is major.

Duh.

It makes you look quite silly when you take the time to make a point, then sign off with 'duh'. Especially when it's typed!

In other news, my SGS2 unfortunately smashed when I hit it with a candle lighter with great force. That said, it survived chest height drops on to stone floors with no problem. Accidental, I might add.
 

ZipZap

macrumors 603
Dec 14, 2007
6,080
1,448
Nope, ZipZap, you have gotten this completely wrong. There is no evidence what you or the OP said that Apple has changed glass in the iPhone’s since the first one in 2007. NONE.

The implementation of the glass on the phone, may make it more prone to breakage than the 3GS or another smartphone (because the corners are more vulnerable). But scratch resistance is the same, since the glass is the same material since day 1.

But look at some numbers to counter the YouTube videos out there.

From SquareTrade’s reports, using a data base of 20,000 phones they found 3.9% of iPhone 4S users suffered broken glass compared to 2.1% from the iPhone 3GS. Yes, that is an 86% increase, but the numbers are small. HOWEVER, the data does not take into account that there are 2 glass surfaces to break instead of one, and that the glass is mounted differently in the 4 or 4S (i.e. the corner takes a hit more easily). In regard to scratching…no change…it is the same material. There is no distinction made as whether the front or back glass is damaged, or both in the report.

From SquareTrade’s report:

Not only has the scratchable surface area doubled, the new aluminosilicate Gorilla glass used in the iPhone 4 doesn't seem any less likely to break than previous models.

http://www.squaretrade.com/htm/pdf/SquareTrade_iPhone4_Study_1010.pdf

And from another SquareTrade report, regarding accident rates in general:

As reported in our previous study on the iPhone 4 glass, the early iPhone 4 data shows a higher accident rate compared to its predecessor. However, when we compare it to the Android manufacturers, it is higher, but not by much. We expect 13.8% of iPhone 4 owners to report an accident within a year, compared to 12.2% for both Motorola and HTC.

http://www.squaretrade.com/htm/pdf/cell_phone_comparison_study_nov_10.pdf

And in general malfunction, non-accident:

The iPhone 4 was the most reliable phone, with 2.1% projected to have a non-accident malfunction in the first 12 months The major makers of Android devices, Motorola and HTC, were also very reliable, with just 2.3% and 3.7%.

No one even knew for sure that Gorilla glass was used in the iPhone 1 until Steve admitted it just recently.

A company like squaretrade is not privy to inside information from Apple same as us. Its all speculation.

I dont care what they publish. They dont know.

Steve seemed obsessed with glass and I suspect he did not use Corning after the first model. What he used is unclear, but what is clear is that breakage has increased since the IP1.

Until Apple publishes something to confirm their use of Gorilla Glass, they dont use it.

I would hope that they consider using Corning new GG but they will probably want too much $$$ and Apple's all about maximizing/retaining profits.
 

viewfly

macrumors 65816
May 1, 2009
1,263
24
Apple in their supplier list http://images.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/pdf/Apple_Supplier_List_2011.pdf lists Lens One Technology(Shenzhen)Co.,Ltd (http://www.szlens.com/English/index.asp) as one of the suppliers. Perhaps this is actually their new glass supplier. In the company's web site it says they make glass windows and PMMA windows for mobile phones and the company being in close proximity to Shenzhen makes more sense from a supply chain perspective. I don't think Lens Technology International (LTI) as mentioned earlier is the right company.

Thank you for your input and welcome to Macrumors. Yes, this Shenzhen base company, Lens One, is listed as one of Apple's suppliers, but not LTI.

Most likely Lens One cuts and fits Corning's Gorilla large glass panes for the iPhone 4, but not manufactures it. The article below supports this.
And maybe it makes the camera lens window too ;)

Let's put this error of the OP's and ZipZap's logic to rest once and for all. The logic goes like this: Corning states that it can't list all of it customers;Apple states it doesn't list all of it's suppliers. LTI is not listed as a supplier by Apple; Lens One is listed, but it doesn't' list Apple as a customer, However, Lens One does list Nokia, Motorola, Samsung, (you know, the guys who do advertise they use Gorilla Glass?;)). From your link:

Lens One Technology has got the trust of many domestic and international corporations, major customers are Motorola, Nokia, Samsung, Lenovo, Huawei, etc.

So the conclusion is that the iPhone no longer has Gorilla Glass? This is really flawed logic and nonsense. LOL, I guess that Apple uses nothing, since NO company owns up to making its glass...:)

There is a lack of understanding that one company, even a glass supplier, doesn't do everything. Corning makes large panes of glass, but it is cut, shaped, polished and mounted by other companies. The supply chain is complex.

Here is some info from a new NYTimes story last week that supports that most likely Lens One, or someone else, cuts the Gorrilla Glass for Apple, but the iPhone glass is still made by Corning.

2007, Mr. Jobs angrily held up his iPhone, angling it so everyone could see the dozens of tiny scratches marring its plastic screen.

People will carry this phone in their pocket, he said. People also carry their keys in their pocket. “I won’t sell a product that gets scratched,” he said tensely. The only solution was using unscratchable glass instead. “I want a glass screen, and I want it perfect in six weeks.”

For years, cellphone makers had avoided using glass because it required precision in cutting and grinding that was extremely difficult to achieve. In 2006-2007, Apple had already selected an American company, Corning Inc., to manufacture large panes of strengthened glass. But figuring out how to cut those panes into millions of iPhone screens required finding an empty cutting plant, hundreds of pieces of glass to use in experiments and an army of midlevel engineers. It would cost a fortune simply to prepare.

Then a bid for the work arrived from a Chinese factory.


When an Apple team visited, the Chinese plant’s owners were already constructing a new wing. “This is in case you give us the contract,” the manager said, according to a former Apple executive. The Chinese government had agreed to underwrite costs for numerous industries, and those subsidies had trickled down to the glass-cutting factory. It had a warehouse filled with glass samples available to Apple, free of charge. The owners made engineers available at almost no cost. They had built on-site dormitories so employees would be available 24 hours a day.

In 2007, the Chinese plant got the job.
(everyone agrees that the first iPhone had Gorilla Glass...and this explains the Corning/Chinese connection that continues today - viewfly)

Manufacturing glass for the iPhone revived a Corning factory in Kentucky, and today, much of the glass in iPhones is still made there. After the iPhone became a success, Corning received a flood of orders from other companies hoping to imitate Apple’s designs. Its strengthened glass sales have grown to more than $700 million a year, and it has hired or continued employing about 1,000 Americans to support the emerging market.

But as that market has expanded, the bulk of Corning’s strengthened glass manufacturing has occurred at plants in Japan and Taiwan.

“Our customers are in Taiwan, Korea, Japan and China,” said James B. Flaws, Corning’s vice chairman and chief financial officer. “We could make the glass here, and then ship it by boat, but that takes 35 days. Or, we could ship it by air, but that’s 10 times as expensive. So we build our glass factories next door to assembly factories, and those are overseas.”


Corning was founded in America 161 years ago and its headquarters are still in upstate New York. Theoretically, the company could manufacture all its glass domestically. But it would “require a total overhaul in how the industry is structured,” Mr. Flaws said. “The consumer electronics business has become an Asian business. As an American, I worry about that, but there’s nothing I can do to stop it. Asia has become what the U.S. was for the last 40 years.”


In summary, the idea that Apple, who pioneered Gorilla Glass for the mobile industry ( and also TV, computer screens) and afterwards as their competitors copied them, then decides to move to an inferior product is just lame. As I said the real story here is a 20 year old product that was resurrected by Apple and Corning, and the engineering issue was how to cut, shape and mount the glass to the phone, and that has been done, since day one by a Chinese company for Apple. And still is. The same is most likely done for Samsung, HTC, Moto and other Android phones, perhaps by Lens One too. Apple is all about offering the best product. And they charge you for it.

It's the same glass.
 
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scaredpoet

macrumors 604
Apr 6, 2007
6,628
358
I'm still not clear on what SGMD's point is, or why it's significant. iPhones don't use Gorilla Glass? Great! The sky is blue. Let's make a thread about that too, since that's probably more significant to most people here.

Apple has never listed official specs stating they use Gorilla glass. Neither has Corning. And in 4 and a half years,five iPhone iterations and an iPad 2, I haven't broken any glass, even though I've accidentally dropped my iPhones on concrete, pavement and other hard services more times than I care to admit. So, I'm pretty confident that whatever glass Apple is using, isn't just disintegrating on its own and thus, worthy of me worrying all that much about it.

Even SquareTrade, who came up with the initial data about iPhone 4 glass breakage, finds it profitable enough to continue to cover the iPhone 4S against breakage at a 40% discount over AppleCare+, while offering twice as many "covered incidents." And while "82% higher incidence of breakage" sounds scary, when you look at the actual measured data they released, it shows for every iPhone 4 user with damage, there's at least 24 other iPhone 4 users with Squaretrade warranties who aren't breaking their iPhones. The study was also incomplete, having only 4 months of iPhone4 data and as far as I can tell, they never released full product cycle results... something I'd imagine they would do if they wanted to prove that their projections were correct.

If a lack of Gorilla Glass means the iPhone 4 is inherently prone to glass breakage, then Squaretrade would've raised their prices quite a bit to continue to cover it, or they would've stopped covering the iPhone 4S altogether and steered people in the direction of Applecare+. Squaretrade isn't a charity, they're a business that aims to make money, effectively by betting that an overwhelming majority of people buying coverage from them will never have to be paid.

So does this mean I should ditch my 4S, and go buy an Android phone because it has Gorilla glass and the iPhone might or might not? No thanks. That would be going out of my way to solve a problem I don't personally have, while creating all kinds of new, needless problems and inconveniences for how I work.
 
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