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Old Dec 5, 2012, 02:41 PM   #301
s15119
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Originally Posted by ZacNicholson View Post
i pirate games, and if i like them i'll buy them. if i dont i delete the game.
You understand you just admitted, publicly, to being a thief?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by brayhite View Post
This analogy doesn't work, considering software doesn't have a CoGS associated with it.

But for the sake of the analogy, I'll say this: what the pirate guy said is no different than someone buying a pair of headphones, trying it out for 29 days, then on the 30th day returning it for a full refund or keeping it. The only difference, assuming he's true to his word, is that he doesn't have to provide a "downpayment" so to speak.

So really, in his case, it's only wrong if you think people should provide money upfront. In the same breath, do you think it's outrageous if the local frozen yogurt shop won't let you sample their flavors without money down? Or if a car dealership wouldn't let you test drive before buying?
What a lousy attempt to excuse theft.

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Originally Posted by Makosuke View Post
There's a relatively important distinction to be made between two types of pirated software that at least a few people don't seem to be grasping:

A: In the case of a music album, a movie, or a "traditional" game, if you pirate it, try it, and decide to buy it, the original producer wasn't directly harmed by the action, at least in theory. And if some good-for-nothing jerk pirates it and doesn't pay, but never was going to in the first place, he's benefitting from somebody else's hard work that he has no right to and deserves to get punched in the face, but again, he's not actually causing active harm to the creators of said work. Might even be helping them, if he tells a friend who's not quite so much of a lout how awesome the game/album/movie is and that friend goes out and buys it.

Leaving aside the large grey area of abandonware or things that aren't available legally, at any price, in your country.

There is a much, much different case, however, which applies to situations like this story:

B: For software that has a cost of supplying service, such as (mainly, really) an online game that requires servers to support it, if somebody pirates it and doesn't pay for it, then the developer is having to support the pirated user with actual outlay of resources, without the corresponding compensation expected for it.

It doesn't take a genius to tell the difference between those two versions.

Now, in type A, it is certainly possible for everybody to pirate something, to the point that nobody buys it and the creator just can't make enough money to justify producing the material. It has certainly happened in at least some cases. But there are other cases where the opposite has played out, and a large middle ground (the modern movie industry, for example) where it seems to be more or less a wash. The analogy of intangible good piracy = shoplifting, however, just isn't 100% equivalent.

Type B is a different matter entirely--that's pretty much directly equivalent to shoplifting. You're stealing something--bandwith and server resources--that you're not paying for. You can only make the argument you're not if you're either 12 years old and not too sharp, or just an idiot. Or an unashamed pirate, which probably puts you in one or both of the other categories.


And I should add that I hate DRM with a passion (and when given the option, didn't put it on the books I've published online, so my money is where my mouth is), but if it comes down to no DRM = no game for anybody, you don't really have much choice.

I'll also add that even if this story turned out to not be true (which I can't honestly see why--if they're not selling the game and giving refunds, there's no marketing benefit for the company), the above still holds entirely true.
It's an imaginary distinction. In both cases it's theft. Ridiculous attempt to make it look like stealing is ok.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 03:51 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by BaldiMac View Post
Again, you are just playing with words that you don't seem to understand. You talk about discussing thing in a "legal sense" and then make up your own definitions while ignoring any legal concepts. You seem to want to make a distinction between violating someone's rights and depriving them of those rights. There isn't.

You have been provided with several definitions of the word "theft" that apply to piracy. Just because you want to go by your own interpretation of the word doesn't mean the other definitions don't exist. This is starting to feel like one of those silly arguments that claim an iPad is not a computer because of some made up definition of the word "computer".

That's how words work. To call something "theft", I only need one accepted definition that fits. To say that I'm wrong, you need to eliminate all reasonable definitions.

Again, it's already been established that you can steal a service. Laws have been quoted and everything.
Yes, I do understand the words - and there is a massive difference between violating rights and removing them.

You have the rights to sell a game. If I download that game, I have prevented you selling that game to me, however, if somebody else comes up afterwards, you still have the right to sell them that game. Therefore my downloading of said game hasn't *removed* your right to sell the game.

If you go to court - both sides will be playing with words - applying various laws to situations, that's how it works. However, I'm going to leave this thread now, since I have a distinct feeling you're just trolling me now, and I'm not willing to play along.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 04:07 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by bma View Post
Yes, I do understand the words - and there is a massive difference between violating rights and removing them.

You have the rights to sell a game. If I download that game, I have prevented you selling that game to me, however, if somebody else comes up afterwards, you still have the right to sell them that game. Therefore my downloading of said game hasn't *removed* your right to sell the game.

If you go to court - both sides will be playing with words - applying various laws to situations, that's how it works. However, I'm going to leave this thread now, since I have a distinct feeling you're just trolling me now, and I'm not willing to play along.
Except you just made up the distinction. It's not a legal one. Rights are never removed in the way that you are trying to imply except through changes in laws. Years of legal precedent have established specific meanings for legal terms.

Through your logic, I'm not deprived of my right to free speech if the government throws me in prison for writing an article, because I still have the right to speak freely. That's just silly. Interfering with or violating someone's rights is the same as depriving them of those rights.

Why is it illegal to steal a hammer? Because the owner has certain property rights to the hammer granted by the law. If you interfere with those rights with dishonest intent, we call that theft. The same is true with intangible property even though the rights that the owner has are different.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 04:57 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by ZacNicholson View Post
i pirate games--<SNIP>
Okay, so you're a software criminal
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 05:45 PM   #305
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If they never had it they'd be dead anyway
I'd be curious if you could show me which oxygen is yours... Do you brand it like cattle?
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 05:56 PM   #306
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 06:06 PM   #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FakeWozniak View Post
That is what the free demo version is for.
can you please show me the free demo of "sleep cycle", "infinity blade II", "pages", "numbers", "iMovie", "Garageband", and "ac/dc pinball rocks"?

Also for everyone saying its like stealing a car, it isn't. It's like taking the car out on a test drive, then buying if you like it.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 06:11 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by ZacNicholson View Post

Also for everyone saying its like stealing a car, it isn't. It's like taking the car out on a test drive, then buying if you like it.
It's more like taking someone else's car out for a joy ride without their permission. Then either buying that very car if you like it, or leaving it on the side of the road somewhere without any gas in the tank if you don't.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 06:40 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by BaldiMac View Post
Except you just made up the distinction. It's not a legal one. Rights are never removed in the way that you are trying to imply except through changes in laws. Years of legal precedent have established specific meanings for legal terms.

Through your logic, I'm not deprived of my right to free speech if the government throws me in prison for writing an article, because I still have the right to speak freely. That's just silly. Interfering with or violating someone's rights is the same as depriving them of those rights.

Why is it illegal to steal a hammer? Because the owner has certain property rights to the hammer granted by the law. If you interfere with those rights with dishonest intent, we call that theft. The same is true with intangible property even though the rights that the owner has are different.
Strictly speaking, "stealing" in law requires the "thief" to have an intent to permanently deprive of the owner of the thing. Therefore pirates are not to be dealt with by the crime of "theft".
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 08:58 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by rdlink View Post
It's not "information." It's someone's work. Get out of the 19th century.[COLOR="#808080"]
Regardless of your views, it IS information, everything you clearly do, is just ones and zeroes and has absolutely no meaning outside of Apple's system. how does that make you feel? Helpless?

I need to get out of the 19th century, when I know that piracy isn't theft, and you don't? Ironic.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 11:47 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by bumblebritches5 View Post
Regardless of your views, it IS information, everything you clearly do, is just ones and zeroes and has absolutely no meaning outside of Apple's system. how does that make you feel? Helpless?

I need to get out of the 19th century, when I know that piracy isn't theft, and you don't? Ironic.
Shouldn't have had that last beer...

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Originally Posted by haruhiko View Post
Strictly speaking, "stealing" in law requires the "thief" to have an intent to permanently deprive of the owner of the thing. Therefore pirates are not to be dealt with by the crime of "theft".

Wow, the contortions some people will go through to justify thievery. It's like I'm watching a gymnastics meet.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 12:08 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
That's a horrible analogy, because you're comparing solid theft to something far more nebulous.

Say I go out and buy a Blu-Ray movie. I sit down, I watch it once or twice, then put it away on the shelf. One day, maybe a year later, I'm going on vacation and want to watch this movie on my iPad.

I can't rip the movie directly, since it's DRMed to hell and back, and against the law to do so. And the digital copy I can buy on iTunes costs twice as much as the movie I bought. It ends up I've got two choices here. Pay for the movie again, or download it off The Pirate Bay.

I've already bought the movie once and supported the studio. Hell, I've bought whole tons of their movies in the past. So if I download a copy of something already sitting on my shelf watch it on another one of my devices, am I stealing?

If I never bought the movie, you could say that, yes, I am. Though it's not direct theft in a physical sense, like it would be if you stole a car. It's more like denial of compensation. But since I already bought and own a copy...

...which is right, and which is wrong?

Though as far as this app goes, it's just pathetic on the pirates part. It costs 5 bucks. There's no reason not to pay for the damn thing.
Your analogy is horrible. The pirates didn't pay in the first place. They didn't buy the game once and then put it on another iOS device. They just stole it.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 03:20 AM   #313
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Your analogy is horrible. The pirates didn't pay in the first place. They didn't buy the game once and then put it on another iOS device. They just stole it.
Well someone pay for it once to save and upload the .ipa, what are the rules of sharing ?
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 04:19 AM   #314
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So what about buying a used game? For simplicitys sake lets say it's an offline game such as Peggle.

Developer still gets $0 but somehow it's more acceptable than pirating. Why?
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 06:38 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by rdlink View Post
Shouldn't have had that last beer...

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Wow, the contortions some people will go through to justify thievery. It's like I'm watching a gymnastics meet.
I don't drink, unlike you obviously. It's not going to some length, we believe that as much as you believe what you say. nothing is black and white, and you can't expect everyone or even most to agree with you.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 06:50 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Jsameds View Post
So what about buying a used game? For simplicitys sake lets say it's an offline game such as Peggle.

Developer still gets $0 but somehow it's more acceptable than pirating. Why?
Because with used games, the developer is paid for every copy of the game that's being played.

With piracy, the developer is paid for a fraction of the game copies being played.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 07:44 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by whooleytoo View Post
Because with used games, the developer is paid for every copy of the game that's being played.

With piracy, the developer is paid for a fraction of the game copies being played.

Actually with used games matey, the developer and publisher is only paid on the first sale. Every subsequent sale the retail store / seller is paid, but the developer and publisher are not. Unless of course they have an online pass which means the developer/publisher will get a cut - but only IF the second hand copy has an online pass bought for it.

It's the reason publishers & developers hate the second hand market.


That being said, at least with every used copy at least 'once' in it's life cycle some $$ went back to the publisher & developer, with every pirate copy zero is given back EVER...




I know this is not going to make me popular......

Personally I think piracy is rife, and it's about time MacRumors closed down the 'jailbreak' threads as regardless of many 'legit' uses, it seems all it does is facilitate the ability of users to pirate games and other applications, and for that reason alone Macrumors should end jailbreaking threads, and let users discuss those topics on other forums should they wish to.

Although we do have a anti-piracy rule on MacRumors, the fact that we still facilitate the hacking of hardware which facilitates piracy, means that macrumors is at times complicit by sanctioning jailbreaking and it's discussion in the first instance...
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 07:52 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by haruhiko View Post
Strictly speaking, "stealing" in law requires the "thief" to have an intent to permanently deprive of the owner of the thing. Therefore pirates are not to be dealt with by the crime of "theft".
Are you implying that pirates are going to return the copy to the developer? Doesn't seem likely to me.

Regardless, intent to permanently deprive the owner of their property is not required. Interfering with their property rights with dishonest intent would qualify as well. If I take your hammer from you while knowing you wouldn't allow it, the fact that I plan to return it in a year doesn't change the fact that it is theft.

Here is a more complete explanation.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthre...ft#post9183731

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Old Dec 6, 2012, 08:00 AM   #319
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Actually with used games matey, the developer and publisher is only paid on the first sale.
Yup, that's consistent with my point. Unless someone copies the game before selling it on (another form of piracy), the developer is paid once for every copy being played.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 08:09 AM   #320
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Yup, that's consistent with my point. Unless someone copies the game before selling it on (another form of piracy), the developer is paid once for every copy being played.
Also, many license agreements allow for the sale and transfer of the license along with the original media provided any additional copies (including installs) are destroyed.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 08:25 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by bumblebritches5 View Post
I don't drink, unlike you obviously. It's not going to some length, we believe that as much as you believe what you say. nothing is black and white, and you can't expect everyone or even most to agree with you.

But it is black and white. That's the point. Thieves try to blur the facts. But that doesn't change the facts. Someone puts their efforts and talents into developing a product, and under the law they are protected from those who would steal from them. Justifying that theft by attacking the victim's business model, security measures, etc. does not change the fact that it's theft.

Sorry to hear that you don't drink. Hate to think that your mind is naturally that addled.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 08:41 AM   #322
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Also, many license agreements allow for the sale and transfer of the license along with the original media provided any additional copies (including installs) are destroyed.
Exactly. It's like a book, there's no problem lending it to someone or selling it, but if you make a copy for someone else, it becomes an issue.

Of course, that doesn't tend to happen as (printed) books are awkward to copy. Digital copies -books, games, music, videos - are much easier to copy. Which actually shows a funny thing about human behaviour: Easy = right. Difficult = wrong.

If you break into someone's house and steal from their safe, that's obviously wrong. But if you take money they left sitting on a cafe table, people start to equivocate... "they shouldn't have left it lying there, it's their own fault. It's ok.".

If you spend hours hacking a site to download a game/video without paying, it's wrong. But if that file was accidentally left unprotected and people downloaded it knowing it's not free "they didn't secure it, it's their fault, it's ok".

It seems to me the easier it gets to pirate games, the more people think it has to be "ok".
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 09:01 AM   #323
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Your analogy is horrible. The pirates didn't pay in the first place. They didn't buy the game once and then put it on another iOS device. They just stole it.
I was arguing about copyright laws in a more generalized, overarching sense, rather than against the people who pirated the game specifically. I've stated my opinion on them with one simple line.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 09:19 AM   #324
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I just wish they would get rid of DRM. The digital world is riddled with it. It's quite frankly rediculous that a pirate who has cracked the DRM gets a better experience than the fella who paid in full.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 09:43 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by ZacNicholson View Post
i pirate games, and if i like them i'll buy them. if i dont i delete the game.
"But officer, I was just TRYING this new Big screen TV out... if I liked it, I was going to go back and pay for it, I SWEAR! If I didn't like it I was going to bring it back...."

Stealing is stealing. You can lie about your motives all you want, it doesn't change the fact that as soon as you download something you don't have the rights to without paying for it, you have STOLEN it. It's the same as if you walked into Best Buy and walked out with a TV. You can't do that, why do you think it's ok to do it here?

At least be an honest thief lol... people will at least respect you for that

Last edited by dejo; Dec 11, 2012 at 01:04 PM. Reason: Removed insult.
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