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thewitt

macrumors 68020
Sep 13, 2011
2,102
1,523
Did you purchase it? Because its not free. No? Then how did you end up with it? Oh, you stole it.

What's so hard to understand about that?
 

itjw

macrumors 65816
Dec 20, 2011
1,088
6
Im not in my moms basement, i am at my university

At your university, pirating software, and justifying it on an Apple fan board...

Bravo... Glad to see the University has a strong Ethics department.

Why not try out one of the cars in the faculty parking lot? If you like it you can pay the owner for it, if not, just give it back, I'm sure they won't mind (or press charges!).

You can call it whatever you want. It's still taking something that doesn't belong to you without permission. That makes it wrong, and I don't believe for a second that if someone "borrowed" something of yours without permission that you wouldn't be FURIOUS.

Especially if once they got caught they tried to justify taking it by saying "I was going to pay the guy if I decided to keep it! I swear!"
 
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itjw

macrumors 65816
Dec 20, 2011
1,088
6
My other option is to go back to not buying anything at all.

That implies we believe you buy anything in the first place. I don't. I think you lie about what you do to try and justify what you're doing even though you know it's theft/stealing/wrong/whatever...

It's ok. The world is full of petty criminals and you can count yourself among them. Some of them feel pretty good about themselves, and that's fine too.

Doesn't change the fact that you're a petty thief, but hey, I bet if someone stole from you you'd be cool with it, and what goes around comes around right?

If your iPad/iPhone turns up missing just let it go. I'm sure the thief would just "stop buying stuff" if you stopped/caught him anyway...

:rolleyes:
 

ThunderSkunk

macrumors 68040
Dec 31, 2007
3,826
4,071
Milwaukee Area
That implies we believe you ad hominem ad hominem ad hominem

It doesn't matter what you believe. If I have no way to determine if I want to own something, & no recourse, I don't buy it. Never have. The result is, I either buy nothing at all, or I buy things that I'm fairly sure I want to own. Just like anyone. I've simply found a way to reduce the risk of buying a lot of garbage in between, by not gambling on total unknowns.

You can personally attack me any way you want but it changes nothing. You won't find anything in my possession I haven't paid for. ...and you have no idea what has been stolen from me over my life, so I'll just let your hotheaded blabbering slide.
 
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praetorian909

macrumors 6502
Aug 4, 2004
279
91
If they can differentiate between pirated copy and original copy of the client software, why don't they just restrict access to the server for the pirated one?

I don't think they can necessarily differentiate between the pirated copies accesing their server vs. paid copies. I'm thinking it might be they know they sold X number of copies, and they see 10X copies making requests to their server.
 

thewitt

macrumors 68020
Sep 13, 2011
2,102
1,523
I don't think they can necessarily differentiate between the pirated copies accesing their server vs. paid copies. I'm thinking it might be they know they sold X number of copies, and they see 10X copies making requests to their server.

This is what happens, however its typical an order of magnitude higher than your example.

They sold X and there are 100x simultaneous server accesses.

With multiple devices under one Apple ID, its not uncommon to see multiple devices accessing a server for every copy sold, but an average increase of more than 100% is unlikely. For everyone who has three or more devices under the same Apple ID, there are many more who have only one.

There is currently no way to tell if the app accessing your service was purchased or is an illegal copy.
 

alvindarkness

macrumors 6502a
Jul 11, 2009
562
397
This analogy doesn't work, considering software doesn't have a CoGS associated with it.

But for the sake of the analogy, I'll say this: what the pirate guy said is no different than someone buying a pair of headphones, trying it out for 29 days, then on the 30th day returning it for a full refund or keeping it. The only difference, assuming he's true to his word, is that he doesn't have to provide a "downpayment" so to speak.

So really, in his case, it's only wrong if you think people should provide money upfront. In the same breath, do you think it's outrageous if the local frozen yogurt shop won't let you sample their flavors without money down? Or if a car dealership wouldn't let you test drive before buying?

Possibly the best post I've read on macrumors in months. (and I say this as someone who buys all the software/games I use, but its just a breath of fresh air to see a parallel side of the argument put forth so well).
 

m00min

macrumors 6502
Jul 17, 2012
419
90
I'm surprised people don't understand the difference between theft and copyright infringement.

If I were to walk into HMV and steal a CD that's theft, I'm depriving HMV of their item and their ability to sell it. If I were to download a movie I'm effectively taking a copy, the original (if that term is even applicable for downloads) is still there. That's a big difference.
 

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,565
I'm surprised people don't understand the difference between theft and copyright infringement.

If I were to walk into HMV and steal a CD that's theft, I'm depriving HMV of their item and their ability to sell it. If I were to download a movie I'm effectively taking a copy, the original (if that term is even applicable for downloads) is still there. That's a big difference.

I'm unfortunately not surprised to what lengths people go to justify their unjustifiable behaviour.

If you walk into HMV and steal a CD, that's theft. HMV may or may not have insurance, but the record company is going to be paid for the CD, and the artist will get his money as well. You hurt HMV or the insurance, but not the artist. If you download a movie, you hurt the artist.

Of course copyright infringement is not theft. But it is illegal, just like theft is, and for the same reason. If you sneak into the movie theatre to watch a movie without paying, if you take a taxi and then run away before paying the driver, and in many other situations, what you do isn't literally theft, but it is just as bad, and therefore there are laws against it.

But you are right, of course, so we should not use the word "thief" anymore, but maybe "scumbag" is more appropriate.
 

m00min

macrumors 6502
Jul 17, 2012
419
90
I'm not trying to justify anything, everything on my jailbroken iPhone is 100% legal. I don't have Installous installed. I just bothers me that people are using the wrong terms for things, it undermines their whole argument because it makes them look silly and hysterical.
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,763
10,890
Doesn't matter to me if you believe me, I know that my statement is true.

Keep in mind that any tweak, theme, or app that modifies Apple's UI or modifies iOS to provide additional functionality not available to App Store apps likely results in copyright infringement.
 

Brian Y

macrumors 68040
Oct 21, 2012
3,776
1,064
I've yet to meet someone with a jailbroken iPhone for whom this is true, but that's a discussion for another thread. :D

Well I can tell you that I have a jailbroken iPad - and everything on there is legal.

My main reasons for doing so were to install TeX Live, OpenVPN, and a Java virtual machine. Also, due to the way the vast majority of jailbreak tweaks are made (code injection as opposed to distributing modified files), there isn't any copyright infringement involved.

And the USCO has quite clearly said that jailbreaking isn't copyright infringement, and have made it an exception to the DMCA - http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2010/07/dmcaexemps.pdf
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,763
10,890
Well I can tell you that I have a jailbroken iPad - and everything on there is legal.

My main reasons for doing so were to install TeX Live, OpenVPN, and a Java virtual machine. Also, due to the way the vast majority of jailbreak tweaks are made (code injection as opposed to distributing modified files), there isn't any copyright infringement involved.

Good for you if that's true! There's always a first! Most everyone I've come across has installed SBSettings and/or themes.

But copyright infringement doesn't require distribution. If you "inject" code that modifies iOS, you are still creating a derivative work. Not saying any of your software does that, just simply that a lack of distribution of the modified code is irrelevant.

And the USCO has quite clearly said that jailbreaking isn't copyright infringement, and have made it an exception to the DMCA - http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2010/07/dmcaexemps.pdf

Absolutely true. Except to clarify that the exemption makes jailbreaking legal for specific, limited purposes. Jailbreaking to install a pirated app is still a DMCA violation.
 

m00min

macrumors 6502
Jul 17, 2012
419
90
Keep in mind that any tweak, theme, or app that modifies Apple's UI or modifies iOS to provide additional functionality not available to App Store apps likely results in copyright infringement.

I don't have any themes installed, that's not why I JB. I've bought BiteSMS and LockInfo because they add useful functionality to my phone.

----------

Good for you if that's true! There's always a first! Most everyone I've come across has installed SBSettings and/or themes.

But copyright infringement doesn't require distribution. If you "inject" code that modifies iOS, you are still creating a derivative work. Not saying any of your software does that, just simply that a lack of distribution of the modified code is irrelevant.



Absolutely true. Except to clarify that the exemption makes jailbreaking legal for specific, limited purposes. Jailbreaking to install a pirated app is still a DMCA violation.

Some of us couldn't care less about the DCMA because we're outside its jurisdiction. Frankly even if I weren't I'd still jailbreak. It's my device and if I'm not pirating anything my conscience is clear.
 

Brian Y

macrumors 68040
Oct 21, 2012
3,776
1,064
Good for you if that's true! There's always a first! Most everyone I've come across has installed SBSettings and/or themes.

But copyright infringement doesn't require distribution. If you "inject" code that modifies iOS, you are still creating a derivative work. Not saying any of your software does that, just simply that a lack of distribution of the modified code is irrelevant.

SB Settings and themes are both legal too ;).

By the nature of code injection, no derivative work is ever created - since extra code is injected directly into RAM. If you own a device, you're perfectly entitled to put whatever 0s and 1s you wish into its RAM (which is all code injection does). That's not creating a derivative work, that's using the hardware you've bought.

If jailbreaking in any way was illegal, do you not think Apple would have moved to shut cydia, or its repositories, down (which, let's face it, wouldn't be hard)? Yes, people do illegal things with it, but providing an avenue to do illegal things isn't illegal (i.e. I can illegally import things by driving them through the channel tunnel, but that doesn't make driving through the channel tunnel illegal).

Also, there is no real "for limited use" clause I found - they made 3 main points:

“[t]o the extent a jailbreaking technique does not modify any of the individual software programs that comprise the iPhone firmware collection, but instead simply adds additional software components to the collection, the practice may not exceed the scope of the license to ‘use the iPhone software’ or constitute a ‘modification’

Second, EFF asserted that “to the extent a jailbreak technique requires the reproduction or adaptation of existing firmware beyond the scope of any license or other authorization by the copyright owner, it would fall within the ambit of 17 U.S.C. § 1l7(a).”270 EFF contended that the iPhone owner is also the owner of the copy of the iPhone’s firmware and that jailbreaking falls within the owner’s privilege “to adapt those copies to add new capabilities, so long as the changes do not "harm the interests of the copyright proprietor.

Finally, EFF contended that in any event, jailbreaking constitutes fair use of the firmware because jailbreaking is a purely noncommercial, private use of computer software, a largely functional work that operates the phone, and that the phone owner must reuse the vast majority of the original firmware in order for the phone to operate. Because the phone owner is simply modifying the firmware for her own use on the phone, there is no harm to the market for the firmware.

I think that covers pretty much everything i've discussed.
 
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BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,763
10,890
I don't have any themes installed, that's not why I JB. I've bought BiteSMS and LockInfo because they add useful functionality to my phone.

And both of those apps modify iOS to add that useful functionality. Which is copyright infringement.

Some of us couldn't care less about the DCMA because we're outside its jurisdiction.

Good for you!

Frankly even if I weren't I'd still jailbreak. It's my device and if I'm not pirating anything my conscience is clear.

Hopefully, you see the difference between that and 100% legal!
 
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