Michelin Offers US GP Tickets Refund

[iGav]

Call me a cynic... but wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that their 7 teams are paying a visit to Paris tomorrow would it?

Kudos to them for offering to refund all the U.S. GP attendees though, but also buying 20,000 tickets to distribute for free for next years race... maybe F1 will be back in the U.S. after all.

Rinky dink link

Meanwhile... things should be very interesting tomorrow, so what are people expecting? fines? suspended bans? points deducting? bans (BAR-Honda likely I imagine)

Thoughts?

[mxpiazza]

i dont follow racing too much, but as a huge sports fan in general, i am happy that they made this move... gotta keep the fans happy, and giving us as many event options as possible is a must.

[xli_ne]

that had to be a huge check but its good to see they are doing this. Those people in the stands that day looked pissed.

[barneygumble]

Originally Posted by iGav

Call me a cynic... but wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that their 7 teams are paying a visit to Paris tomorrow would it?

Kudos to them for offering to refund all the U.S. GP attendees though, but also buying 20,000 tickets to distribute for free for next years race... maybe F1 will be back in the U.S. after all.

Rinky dink link

Meanwhile... things should be very interesting tomorrow, so what are people expecting? fines? suspended bans? points deducting? bans (BAR-Honda likely I imagine)

Thoughts?

I don't think they had any choice, they screwed everyone over

[flyfish29]

Michelin didn't screw anyone over. They had a tire with a defect and the powers that be wouldn't let them change the tire to a safe one- and all the teams wouldn't put in a chicane to show the race down around the curve that blew out all the tires because the Ferrari team were unwilling to compromise and let them put in the chicane. The powers that be wouldn't let them change tires to be safe either. They have to race on the same tires they use in the qualifying.

so be pissed at the powers that be or the Ferrari team- not Michelin. Flaws happen in products- great to see them moving forward on a solution to help save racing in the US and their face.

[Counterfit]

Originally Posted by flyfish29

Michelin didn't screw anyone over. They had a tire with a defect and the powers that be wouldn't let them change the tire to a safe one- and all the teams wouldn't put in a chicane to show the race down around the curve that blew out all the tires because the Ferrari team were unwilling to compromise and let them put in the chicane. The powers that be wouldn't let them change tires to be safe either. They have to race on the same tires they use in the qualifying.

so be pissed at the powers that be or the Ferrari team- not Michelin. Flaws happen in products- great to see them moving forward on a solution to help save racing in the US and their face.

We've been through this already. Ferrari had no say in the matter whatsoever. And penalizing the Bridgestone teams for having the correct equipment would just be flat out wrong, and turn F1 into more of a farce than most people already believe it to be. Also, the FIA didn't say "no, you can't use different tires" they said "You can use new tires, but be aware that the race stewards would be obliged to penalize you if you break the rules".

As for the refund, it took them long enough. Maybe I can get one or more of those free tix to next year's race

[JFreak]

Originally Posted by flyfish29

They had a tire with a defect

right on. not all michelin tyres were faulty, and not all teams were affected. only toyotas had problems and had they brain michelin should have instructed only toyotas to retire. instead of what would have been wise, they challenged everything and insisted that they were the ones who set the rules. doomed.

now all michelin teams were punished, especially kimi who had a great opportunity to finish ahead of alonso whose renault was an underperformer at indy.

hopefully fia does not set any additional punishment for michelin teams, as fia already is considered favoring ferraris in every possible way. after indy fiasko ferrari is 2nd in constructors' and schumi 3rd in personal championship, and if fia bans michelin teams or takes away any points, there's nothing to stop ferrari from taking all titles once again. maybe they cannot let that happen.

[barneygumble]

Originally Posted by JFreak

right on. not all michelin tyres were faulty, and not all teams were affected. only toyotas had problems and had they brain michelin should have instructed only toyotas to retire. instead of what would have been wise, they challenged everything and insisted that they were the ones who set the rules. doomed.

now all michelin teams were punished, especially kimi who had a great opportunity to finish ahead of alonso whose renault was an underperformer at indy.

hopefully fia does not set any additional punishment for michelin teams, as fia already is considered favoring ferraris in every possible way. after indy fiasko ferrari is 2nd in constructors' and schumi 3rd in personal championship, and if fia bans michelin teams or takes away any points, there's nothing to stop ferrari from taking all titles once again. maybe they cannot let that happen.

rubbish, about 7 teams had a tyre failure, they don't all have to explode you know

[Sol]

The refund is the right thing for Michelin to do. The people who paid for their tickets and felt ripped off will get compensated for their trouble. Having said that, attending a GP costs more than the ticket price in money and time.

The teams that did not race gave points to Ferrari. Dumb.

I feel most sorry for the drivers. Kimi Raikkonen looked like he would close the championship points gap between himself and Fernando Alonso. Now Michael Schumacher is a contender.

[JFreak]

Originally Posted by barneygumble

rubbish, about 7 teams had a tyre failure, they don't all have to explode you know

whatever. at least mclarens and renaults were in race condition, as their setups had been modified a bit after toyota accidents. kimi and alonso were assured by their chief engineers that their cars were safe. they just were not allowed to race, because michelin said so.

(driver has a contract to a team and team has a contract to a tyre supplier. if tyre supplier says to the team that their product cannot be used in a race, then team must withdraw - simple as that. i don't know the details of their deal, but i believe it's a mile long and states something about this kind of situations too.)

[Dont Hurt Me]

There is a alternative, do what i do and watch Goodyear and Nascar instead Nothing like cars bouncing off one another at 190 but thats not civilized behavior now is it.

[iGav]

Teams found guilty on US fiasco

[flyfish29]

Originally Posted by Counterfit

We've been through this already. Ferrari had no say in the matter whatsoever. And penalizing the Bridgestone teams for having the correct equipment would just be flat out wrong, and turn F1 into more of a farce than most people already believe it to be. Also, the FIA didn't say "no, you can't use different tires" they said "You can use new tires, but be aware that the race stewards would be obliged to penalize you if you break the rules".

As for the refund, it took them long enough. Maybe I can get one or more of those free tix to next year's race

I am sorry- "we've" not been through this. You might have been but last I checked there were four posts to this particular thread(when I added my first post). I was just adding my two cents about the situation. Ferrari did have a say- they could have agreed to the chicane. I know they didn't make the rules about changing tires of course. also, I have no idea, but what would the penalty have been for changing tires?

[Rod Rod]

Originally Posted by flyfish29

Ferrari did have a say- they could have agreed to the chicane.

Ferrari could have agreed to the chicane but that wouldn't have changed the F1 rules disallowing the addition. Michelin messed up by not sending its teams a second set of safe/conservative backup tires. It's too bad that Ferrari hatred clouds vision.

[Counterfit]

Originally Posted by flyfish29

I am sorry- "we've" not been through this. You might have been but last I checked there were four posts to this particular thread(when I added my first post). I was just adding my two cents about the situation. Ferrari did have a say- they could have agreed to the chicane. I know they didn't make the rules about changing tires of course. also, I have no idea, but what would the penalty have been for changing tires?

We indeed have been through this. Go find the USGP thread from last week. As Rod^2 said, Ferrari's agreement to the chicane would not have changed a thing, it would have been up to the FIA anyway, and both Charlie (on the Saturday night) and Max said that adding a chicane would be completely out of the question. And the penalty for changing the tires would depend on when they were changed, and what the race stewards decided. I recommend you check out the correspondence between the FIA and the Michelin supplied teams that is posted on the FIA's website

[Counterfit]

almost forgot...
Dont hurt me: you MUST be kidding me!

[iGav]

Originally Posted by flyfish29

They had a tire with a defect and the powers that be wouldn't let them change the tire to a safe one

Actually the FIA stated that they would be allowed to replace their tyres, however Michelin themselves admitted that the replacement tyres they shipped over (rumoured to be Barcelona spec) were also incapable of completing the race.

Originally Posted by flyfish29

and all the teams wouldn't put in a chicane to show the race down around the curve that blew out all the tires because the Ferrari team were unwilling to compromise and let them put in the chicane.

Ferrari were never consulted with regards to the chicane. Anyway, it would have made no difference, adding a chicane to a track poses it's on risks and possible ramifications... all were clearly outlined by the FIA.

Ultimately you cannot start changing a race track to suit teams that have the incorrect equipment.

Originally Posted by flyfish29

The powers that be wouldn't let them change tires to be safe either. They have to race on the same tires they use in the qualifying.

See above, the FIA did offer the Michelin teams the opportunity to use the tyres that Michelin had imported over as replacements, however these tyres would have suffered in a similar fashion according to Michelin.

The Michelin teams also had the opportunity to change damaged tyres in pit stops, which is clearly within the rules.

Originally Posted by flyfish29

so be pissed at the powers that be or the Ferrari team- not Michelin.

Why Ferrari? they did nothing wrong and cannot be held accountable for ANYTHING that happened at the U.S. GP. They turned up with the correct equipment suitable for the conditions and raced.

How would you have felt had Ferrari and Bridgestone suggested, at several races this season where they had suffered with tyre performance isses, that they required the circuit to be altered to allow them to race?

What happened was Michelin's fault, and Michelin's fault alone. Not the FIA's, not Bernies and definitely not Ferrari's.

Originally Posted by Jfreak

not all michelin tyres were faulty, and not all teams were affected. only toyotas had problems and had they brain michelin should have instructed only toyotas to retire.

Actually, all the tyres were incapable of completing a race distance if they ran turn 13 at race speed, and Toyota were not the only team to experience problems with them.

Originally Posted by flyfish29

I have no idea, but what would the penalty have been for changing tires?

I've not idea actually, the FIA seemed a little vague on the punishment had the teams swapped to another Michelin compound. However the Michelin teams could have raced, and changed the problem tyre every 10 laps and suffered no penalty.

Anyway, back to todays events... it now seems that 6 (not Red Bull) will appeal the FIA's verdict.

Rinky dink link

I'm still not sure what I think about the lack of punishment so far, in a way I agree with a comment by Jfreak above, that the Michelin teams suffered a punishment by basically not gaining any points from the U.S. GP, and that is punishment in itself, especially in such a competitive season.

But the way Michelin and their 7 teams behaved... it just doesn't rest easy with me... I'm just not sure what a justifiable puunishment would be though.

Either way, the events of the U.S. GP has certainly closed the championships up just dandy Kimi will still win it though

[psycho bob]

The FIA are to blame fullstop, the fact they didn't see it coming just shows are far up their own orifices their heads really are. The F1 rules for changing tyres have altered this year, another desperate attempt to inject some life into to one of the most expensive dull motorsports in the world. Michelin acknowledged they had a problem with their tyres as a result of the heat build up and strain the banking placed on them. They spoke to the teams and said they could not guarantee the safety of the drivers. The teams and Michelin put forward the chicane idea but got shot down by the FIA. Even if Michelin had a tyre they felt would work the formula rules would not have allowed the teams to use it.

After all other avenues were exhausted the teams decided to pull out. The FIA press machine then rolls in to action threatening Michelin with bringing the sport into disrepute. The FIA had options to modify the track so the race could have gone ahead, they knew the teams were uncomfortable but chose to do nothing.

The sooner the fat cats get out of F1 the better. The same weekend as the US grand prix was the Le Mans 24 hours. I watched the race and it was superb, sportscar racing is more passionate then single seater competitions. The irony was that for an endurance race there was more passing and action then in a whole season of F1 and seeing Tom Kristensen make history as he did was a sight to behold.

[flyfish29]

Originally Posted by Counterfit

We indeed have been through this. Go find the USGP thread from last week. As Rod^2 said, Ferrari's agreement to the chicane would not have changed a thing, it would have been up to the FIA anyway, and both Charlie (on the Saturday night) and Max said that adding a chicane would be completely out of the question. And the penalty for changing the tires would depend on when they were changed, and what the race stewards decided. I recommend you check out the correspondence between the FIA and the Michelin supplied teams that is posted on the FIA's website

I guess you didn't understand my post. You said We've been through this. However, I never read another thread about this topic and really don't care to right now. My point was when you make a comment like We've been through this- don't say "we" say this has already been covered and link the thread or something. Sure I could go search for it I guess, but I was just responding to the original poster and having a discussion in this particular thread. Enough said.

[mac-er]

Could someone explain why F1 has different tires on cars?

Seems it would give some teams an advantage over others.

One reason why NASCAR is better, IMO, is because you are watching drivers race, not equipment...they have pretty standardized everything (engines, tires, templates, etc).

[orangedv]

Originally Posted by iGav

The Michelin teams also had the opportunity to change damaged tyres in pit stops, which is clearly within the rules.




What happened was Michelin's fault, and Michelin's fault alone. Not the FIA's, not Bernies and definitely not Ferrari's.

what have you been smoking fellah?

Please do not apply the wear and tear pit stop scenario to tyres exploding on diamond tip cut race tracks. Sorry but no way.

As for the second comment, that is just nuts. Here is the opinion of a guy who knows a heck of a lot more about the sport than you.

"The US Grand Prix fiasco could have been avoided but for the intervention of Formula One boss Max Mosley, Minardi boss Paul Stoddart has said.
Stoddart said most F1 teams had lost faith in Mosley - the president of F1's governing body the FIA - and repeated calls for his resignation.

He said Mosley resisted all attempts to solve the problem of Michelin being unable to guarantee its tyres' safety.

"Mosley failed in his duty so I have called for his resignation," he said."

[Dale Sorel]

Originally Posted by mac-er

Could someone explain why F1 has different tires on cars?

Seems it would give some teams an advantage over others.

Formula One is, and always has been, a showcase for developing technologies.

One reason why NASCAR is better, IMO, is because you are watching drivers race, not equipment...they have pretty standardized everything (engines, tires, templates, etc).

So why have Roush/Yates, Penske, Gibbs, and Hendrick outclassed everyone else this year

Simple answer: $$$

[Don't panic]

Originally Posted by orangedv

As for the second comment, that is just nuts.

and THEN you proceed to quote Paul Stoddart, of all people???

[Counterfit]

Originally Posted by flyfish29

I guess you didn't understand my post. You said We've been through this. However, I never read another thread about this topic and really don't care to right now. My point was when you make a comment like We've been through this- don't say "we" say this has already been covered and link the thread or something. Sure I could go search for it I guess, but I was just responding to the original poster and having a discussion in this particular thread. Enough said.

Ignorance and laziness are not excuses.

Originally Posted by psychobob

The FIA are to blame fullstop, the fact they didn't see it coming just shows are far up their own orifices their heads really are. The F1 rules for changing tyres have altered this year, another desperate attempt to inject some life into to one of the most expensive dull motorsports in the world. Michelin acknowledged they had a problem with their tyres as a result of the heat build up and strain the banking placed on them. They spoke to the teams and said they could not guarantee the safety of the drivers. The teams and Michelin put forward the chicane idea but got shot down by the FIA. Even if Michelin had a tyre they felt would work the formula rules would not have allowed the teams to use it.

After all other avenues were exhausted the teams decided to pull out. The FIA press machine then rolls in to action threatening Michelin with bringing the sport into disrepute. The FIA had options to modify the track so the race could have gone ahead, they knew the teams were uncomfortable but chose to do nothing.

Alright, there are FAR too many people with their fingers in their ears. I will now post a quote direct from Charlie Whiting's correspondence with Pierre Dupasquier of Michelin regarding the tire problem.

CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN REPRESENTATIVES OF MICHELIN IN INDIANAPOLIS AND THE FIA FORMULA ONE RACE DIRECTOR
19.06.2005


Letter from Representatives of Michelin to Charlie Whiting, the FIA Formula One Race Director:
Saturday June 18 2005
Indianapolis

Charlie Whiting, FIA Race Director and Safety delegate

Dear Mr Whiting

Having analysed and fully evaluated the tyre failures that have occurred over the Indianapolis Grand Prix practice sessions we have been unable to identify a root cause.

The current rules and timescale do not permit the use of an alternative tyre solution and the race must be performed with the qualifying tyres.

Michelin has in the sole interest of safety informed its partner teams that we do not have total assurance that all tyres that qualified the cars can be used unless the vehicle speed in turn 13 can be reduced.

Michelin very much regrets this situation, but has taken this decision after careful consideration and in the best interests of safety at the event.

We trust that the FIA can understand our position and we remain at your disposal if you want any further information.

Pierre Dupasquier
Michelin Motorsport Director

Nick Shorrock
Director of Michelin F1 activities

Cc:
Bernie Ecclestone
Michelin teams
Ron Dennis (West McLaren-Mercedes)
Flavio Briatore (Mild Seven Renault F1)
Frank Williams (BMW WilliamsF1 Team)
Peter Sauber (Sauber Petronas)
Christian Horner (Red Bull Racing)
Nick Fry (B-A-R Honda)
John Howett (Panasonic Toyota Racing)


Letter from Charlie Whiting, the FIA Formula One Race Director, in reply to above letter from Representatives of Michelin:

19 June, 2005

Dear Mr Dupasquier,
Dear Mr Shorrock,

We have received your letter of 18 June.

We are very surprised that this difficulty has arisen. As you know, each team is allowed to bring two different types of tyre to an event so as to ensure that a back-up (usually of lower performance) is available should problems occur. It is hard to understand why you have not supplied your teams with such a tyre given your years of experience at Indianapolis.

That the teams you supply are not in possession of such a tyre will also be a matter for the FIA to consider in due course under Article 151c of the International Sporting Code.

No doubt you will inform your teams what is the maximum safe speed for their cars in Turn 13. We will remind them of the need to follow your advice for safety reasons. We will also ask them to ensure their cars do not obstruct other competitors.

Some of the teams have raised with us the possibility of running a tyre which was not used in qualifying. We have told them this would be a breach of the rules to be considered by the stewards. We believe the penalty would not be exclusion but would have to be heavy enough to ensure that no team was tempted to use qualifying tyres in the future.

Another possibility would be for the relevant teams repeatedly to change the affected tyre during the race (we understand you have told your teams the left rear is safe for a maximum of ten laps at full speed). If the technical delegate and the stewards were satisfied that each change was made because the tyre would otherwise fail (thus for genuine safety reasons) and that the relevant team were not gaining an advantage, there would be no penalty. If this meant using tyres additional to a teams’ allocation, the stewards would consider all the circumstances in deciding what penalty, if any, to apply.

Finally, it has been suggested that a chicane should be laid out in Turn 13. I am sure you will appreciate that this is out of the question. To change the course in order to help some of the teams with a performance problem caused by their failure to bring suitable equipment to the race would be a breach of the rules and grossly unfair to those teams which have come to Indianapolis with the correct tyres.

Yours sincerely,

Charlie Whiting
FIA Formula One Race Director

cc: Bernie Ecclestone
Ron Dennis (West McLaren-Mercedes)
Flavio Briatore (Mild Seven Renault F1)
Frank Williams (BMW WilliamsF1 Team)
Peter Sauber (Sauber Petronas)
Christian Horner (Red Bull Racing)
Nick Fry (B-A-R Honda)
John Howett (Panasonic Toyota Racing)
Jean Todt (Scuderia Ferrari)
Colin Kolles (Jordan Grand Prix)
Paul Stoddart (Minardi F1 Team)

Formula One Press Corps

emphasis mine.
link further correspoondence
letter from Max Mosely to Eduard Michelin (pdf)

As for Stoddard, he should go back to playing with his planes, and leave racing to the real professionals.

[iGav]

Originally Posted by orangedv

Please do not apply the wear and tear pit stop scenario to tyres exploding on diamond tip cut race tracks.

And why not?

But for your information, I was only reciting suggestions made by the FIA.

Secondly... the Indianapolis Motorway Speedway has been diamond ground for a while now, nothing special there.

Originally Posted by orangedv

As for the second comment, that is just nuts.

Why is it nuts? Had Michelin bought tyres suitable for racing then there WOULD NOT have been a problem would there? Thought not.

Originally Posted by orangedv

Here is the opinion of a guy who knows a heck of a lot more about the sport than you.

And what does that have to do with it? I've never claimed to be any kind of authority on F1... just a fan, with an opinion as valid as anyone elses.

Of course the U.S. GP fiasco could have been avoided had the FIA decided to change the rules in favour of the teams that had turned up to a race with the incorrect equipment.

But had Michelin actually bought a tyre suitable for the conditions, then there wouldn't have been a 'fiasco' in the first place would there? Lets not forget that the FIA only a few weeks ago issued a statement regarding tyre safety and durability.