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8GB RAM in M3 MacBook Pro Proves the Bottleneck in Real-World Tests
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Don't make assumptions on where someone lives. (I'm not in the US.)
Sorry. Wasn't assuming. More just quoting your post as an opportunity to bring it to the attention of the wider audience because all the prices here are, understandably, being quoted in USD.
And the M2 13” MacBook Pro also had 8GB RAM, your point is? And MacBooks still use trackpads and keyboards like it’s 2012 as well. That’s irrelevant to whether or not many customers find a product to be a compelling value. You don’t think it’s a compelling value, many others do think it’s a compelling value. This is a largely subjective debate, so it’s basically pointless. I doubt that 84 pages in that I’m going to convince you it’s a good value, and you’re not convincing me it’s a bad value. This is a matter of individual customers wants, needs, preferences, etc. and the value they place on these preferences when deciding which products to purchase. It’s highly subjective and varies based on individual perspectives, so it’s pretty much pointless to debate over.
Yeah, and it was cheaper, and that was several years earlier.
Now that the Pro starts at a higher price point and more years have passed, Apple will have to eventually revisit.
Why do you keep pretending that specs like trackpads or the aluminum shell are technology that evolves at the same pace as chips?
Keep in mind that posted Apple prices for European countries include VAT while U.S. prices do not include sales tax.
For example, the starting price of a 14" MacBook Pro with VAT in the UK is £1,699 (around $2,133 USD) but without VAT the price is £1,415 (around $1,777 USD). The pre-VAT Euro/UK prices are much closer to the pre-sales tax U.S. prices. Of course, exchange rate fluctuations are another factor.
It was 1 year earlier, not several.
They may eventually revisit. I also have no issue with the current spec. If future specs improve, I won’t complain.
Some would argue that the Mac is left behind because it lacks a touchscreen and uses a trackpad and keyboard instead. I disagree with this argument, but the people arguing these points make similar arguments to the ones you are using.
And again, this is pointless, because it’s all subjective based on individual customers. You don’t think it’s worth the price. Then don’t buy it. I think it is. Others think it is or isn’t as well. This is a pointless debate.
Adding touch to the Mac requires significant changes to the UI paradigm, which didn’t work well for Windows 8. It affects software — including third-party — and hardware alike.
Adding more RAM improves performance.
That wasn’t the point of talking about trackpad and keyboard, I agree it’s better than touch on Mac, the point is that it’s been used for a while and is still great. Not everyone wants or needs more RAM. This is pointless to debate about because it’s a subjective thing based on individual customer preferences and priorities. Some think 8GB is plenty, some don’t.
Surprised this thread still has people trying to justify the 8Gb base configuration.
1. Some of the software already stipulates more than 8Gb
2. Apple have made it publicly known they intend to concentrate on gaming which will require more than 8Gb so selling a system to customers that won't even fulfil Apple's intended market seems nuts.
3. Yes some windows are configured to just 8Gb RAM, the difference is its really easy and cheap to upgrade that for just a few dollars. With an 8Gb base Mac that is what the memory will always be and the likelihood that in a year or two it will not be usable for what many are buying for based on Apple's own comments about gaming.
4. To cut out 8Gb configuration across the board would be negligible cost to Apple, as stopping the fabrication/construction of the 8Gb based systems would mean increasing the run of the 16Gb fabrication/units where further economy of scale kicks in. Apple would still have potential for other configurations that they currently offer without the fear of a class action as and when users of 8Gb find their SSD's have failed from excess swapping, or that they do not function for the games that Apple suggests its pursuing.
Class actions have cost Apple millions and far better to avoid the prospect of that happening because of an erroneous comment about 8Gb of Apple is equivalent to 16Gb which is simply not true and provably wrong.
1. Some of the software already stipulates more than 8Gb
2. Apple have made it publicly known they intend to concentrate on gaming which will require more than 8Gb so selling a system to customers that won't even fulfil Apple's intended market seems nuts.
3. Yes some windows are configured to just 8Gb RAM, the difference is its really easy and cheap to upgrade that for just a few dollars. With an 8Gb base Mac that is what the memory will always be and the likelihood that in a year or two it will not be usable for what many are buying for based on Apple's own comments about gaming.
4. To cut out 8Gb configuration across the board would be negligible cost to Apple, as stopping the fabrication/construction of the 8Gb based systems would mean increasing the run of the 16Gb fabrication/units where further economy of scale kicks in. Apple would still have potential for other configurations that they currently offer without the fear of a class action as and when users of 8Gb find their SSD's have failed from excess swapping, or that they do not function for the games that Apple suggests its pursuing.
Class actions have cost Apple millions and far better to avoid the prospect of that happening because of an erroneous comment about 8Gb of Apple is equivalent to 16Gb which is simply not true and provably wrong.
Be interesting to know which of these people object to as they are all based on facts?
They aren’t facts, they’re subjective opinions, which makes this debate pointless.
Point out these 'subjective opinions'
Its a fact that 8gb does not equate to 16GB. Multiple independent tests confirm that FACT.
It is a fact that an SSD has a finite read/write life. So swapping which introduces more will result in a shorter SSD life, and 8GB amplifies it by the extra amount of swapping required over 16Gb.
So point out these subjective opinions? But more importantly demonstrate they are not facts with evidence to support it.
using the comment 'subjective opinion' in this instance equates to "I see no ships" and check out independent tests.
I can't believe there are people not on Apple's payroll that are still trying to defend an 8GB RAM machine with a $1600 price tag 3 months later.
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And Apple didn’t say that 8GB is the same as 16GB. One Apple executive said that he thinks 8GB on M-Series systems performance is about comparable to the performance of 16GB on other Intel based systems. In my experience, this has born out to be pretty accurate, as I have used both.
But it’s also a fact that memory swap has existed for years, and hasn’t been a common cause of “premature failure” of SSDs. There’s no reason to believe that swap memory will prevent the base spec Macs from lasting their roughly 7 year support life.
Your subjective opinions about how much RAM is necessary for gaming, the idea that swap memory somehow dramatically decreases life of the system below its normal support life, etc. are only subjective opinions, not facts. 8GB of RAM has been plenty for gaming on the iPad, there’s no reason it can’t be enough for gaming on the Mac as well.
Again, this is a pointless debate because this is all about subjective opinions. You don’t think 8GB is enough for gaming, I do. This is just subjective.
Nah that's not subjective. 8GB of RAM is objectively not enough for any real gaming.
And that’s how I’ve played real games on my 4GB iPhone. I guess that was all an illusion and not real… Or maybe your concept of what counts as a “real game” is subjective as well…
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In your experience, then I'm afraid your experience cannot be that comprehensive.
You use the comment 'subjective opinion' as an escape route from the facts.
They are not subjective opinion they are fact.
Do you contest that an SSD has a finite life?
8GB Apple M3 MacBook Pro Crushed by 16GB Config in CPU Benchmarks
8GB vs 16GB on the MacBook Pro's M3 CPU
8GB RAM in M3 MacBook Pro Proves the Bottleneck in Real-World Tests
Apple's new MacBook Pro models are powered by cutting-edge M3 Apple silicon, but the base configuration 14-inch model starting at $1,599...
www.macrumors.com
Tracking swap space: is it wearing out your SSD?
In extreme cases, excessive use of swap space on an internal SSD could lead to its premature death, and the end of life for that Mac. How could you assess that?
eclecticlight.co
How to Prevent Excessive SSD Wear and Extend SSD's Lifespan?
The modern SSDs have a sufficiently longer lifespan accompanied with higher storage and compact design. H
www.stellarinfo.com
Questions raised about M1 Mac SSD longevity, based on incomplete data | AppleInsider
Complaints about the potential lifespan of Apple Silicon Mac storage are causing concern that the current crop of M1 Macs could stop working within a few years — and have been stoked by unanswered questions, unreliable data, and a silent Apple.
appleinsider.com
SSD Lifespan: How Long do Solid-State Drives Last? - N-able
Read about the common lifespan of SSD and what you can do to prepare for when your solid-state drive fails.
www.n-able.com
(TBW) is the critical factor and the more swapping the more that number reduces, the greater loss of longevity for the SSD.
Loading…
download.semiconductor.samsung.com
How Long Does an SSDs Last? | Calculate Your SSD’s Lifespan
Learn how long your SSD will last and how to maximize their lifespan with our comprehensive guide.
www.enterprisestorageforum.com
The Impact Of SWAP Memory On SSD Performance In Mac | Moreynchi
This detailed review explores the impact of SWAP memory on SSD performance in Mac systems, addressing concerns and optimizing user experience.
moreynchi.in
To defend their side of the argument, I suspect 8GB is comfortably enough to run Wordle. 😉
A. My experience is plenty comprehensive. I’m hardly what most people would classify as a casual user…In your experience, then I'm afraid your experience cannot be that comprehensive.
You use the comment 'subjective opinion' as an escape route from the facts.
They are not subjective opinion they are fact.
Do you contest that an SSD has a finite life?
8GB Apple M3 MacBook Pro Crushed by 16GB Config in CPU Benchmarks
8GB vs 16GB on the MacBook Pro's M3 CPUwww.tomshardware.com
8GB RAM in M3 MacBook Pro Proves the Bottleneck in Real-World Tests
Apple's new MacBook Pro models are powered by cutting-edge M3 Apple silicon, but the base configuration 14-inch model starting at $1,599...
Tracking swap space: is it wearing out your SSD?
In extreme cases, excessive use of swap space on an internal SSD could lead to its premature death, and the end of life for that Mac. How could you assess that?
How to Prevent Excessive SSD Wear and Extend SSD's Lifespan?
The modern SSDs have a sufficiently longer lifespan accompanied with higher storage and compact design. H
Questions raised about M1 Mac SSD longevity, based on incomplete data | AppleInsider
Complaints about the potential lifespan of Apple Silicon Mac storage are causing concern that the current crop of M1 Macs could stop working within a few years — and have been stoked by unanswered questions, unreliable data, and a silent Apple.
SSD Lifespan: How Long do Solid-State Drives Last? - N-able
Read about the common lifespan of SSD and what you can do to prepare for when your solid-state drive fails.
(TBW) is the critical factor and the more swapping the more that number reduces, the greater loss of longevity for the SSD.
Loading…
download.semiconductor.samsung.com
How Long Does an SSDs Last? | Calculate Your SSD’s Lifespan
Learn how long your SSD will last and how to maximize their lifespan with our comprehensive guide.
The Impact Of SWAP Memory On SSD Performance In Mac | Moreynchi
This detailed review explores the impact of SWAP memory on SSD performance in Mac systems, addressing concerns and optimizing user experience.
B. Most of your arguments are based on your subjective interpretation of so-called facts. Case in point, arguing that 8GB of RAM isn’t enough for gaming, when it’s been enough for gaming on the iPhone and iPad for years…. Or arguing that swap memory on 8GB Macs would somehow cause premature system failure. No escape routes involved, you just in many cases are claiming subjective opinion based things as facts…
C. Swap memory has existed for decades, and hasn’t been a major cause of SSD failure in Macs. 8GB Macs used swap memory before the M1, and we didn’t see tons of SSDs failing before the end of the Macs approximate 7 year support life ended. There’s absolutely no reason to expect that swap memory will cause most 8GB M-Series Macs to fail before the end of their approximate 7 years support life either…
D. This entire debate is about subjective opinions. Many consider 8GB to be plenty for them, some think 8GB isn’t enough. Different people have different use-cases and workflows, and different needs from their computers. This is why this debate is entirely pointless, because what’s enough or isn’t enough for base-spec users is a subjective opinion-based thing. If we look at the big picture, we can note that the base spec models sell very well, and customer satisfaction is very high, so there’s no reason to believe that most base-spec buyers are dissatisfied with the base spec model…
E. To summarize, I think the base spec model is great, plenty of others do as well, it’s selling well, and you’re not going to convince me that people shouldn’t be given the option to buy this new base spec model. This debate is pointless.
C Yes swap memory has existed for decades, and for decades, indeed from its inception its a known fact that SSD's have a finite life.
For example you quote previous generations of Macs prior to M1....but previous generations were not based on either unified memory nor by virtue of them being prior to the M1 the often necessity to swap, whereas in the past often users who were not using demanding software had minimal swapping overhead.
That changed, and with gaming now firmly on Apple's agenda...FACT not subjective opinion, as they've stated it that objective, the game changes, as has the software requirements since pre M1 series. So swapping has increased dramatically with the 8Gb set up, and can easily be verified, so what prior to M1 with the same base 8Gb may indeed have lasted longer, which rather adds to my comment rather than detracting from it, but where the 7 year support life you refer to doesn't include the life of the SSD, and where if an SSD fails after 1 year, you will struggle to get anything from Apple, and effectively can write off your machine.
Indeed some software for M1,M2,M3 already exceeds the base 8GB, and the amount of swapping increases to accommodate what is effective a memory shortfall, as that is what swapping is and where a finite life SSD will have its longevity decreased by increased swapping, that is inevitable with greater software demands let alone Apple signifying its interest in gaming.
Sadly you can't defy the laws of physics and if you test an 8Gb base M1, M2 etc, on provided software, it may run without significant swapping, but you put it under load, and you see the incredible amounts of swapping that take place even at current software demands. Not subjective, you can if you choose do the tests yourself, and as others have found been rather surprised at both the drop in performance with the 8Gb base and the corresponding increase in swapping.
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Well, the Air has had soldered RAM since 2008, and all MacBooks have had it since 2012. And only MacBooks with a discrete GPU didn't have unified memory. That excludes most 13-inch or smaller models, and most below $2,000.
But, "the cheapest MacBook Pro starts at 8 GiB RAM" was a very different statement in 2012 than it is in 2024. That's where the necessity to swap comes from.
Yes, SSDs have a finite lifespan, I’m not saying they don’t. But where are all the cases where MacBook SSDs are just failing everywhere from to much swap usage? Why should we assume that Swap Memory usage will kill most 8GB MacBooks before their approximate 7 year support life is over? Such claims are merely your assumptions and subjective opinions. There’s no factual evidence that 8GB M-Series Macs won’t last their 7 year support life, and if we look at older Macs that also used memory swap, we don’t see a bunch of premature SSD failures. To claim that 8GB M-Series Macs won’t last their support life due to swap memory is entirely speculative, and cannot be claimed as a fact. And Intel Macs that didn’t have a separate graphics card used a similar system to Unified Memory. The main difference between Unified Memory and the integrated graphics systems on Intel chips was that the integrated graphics used a partition of the system RAM, and data had to be duplicated back and forth between that partition and the rest of the system RAM. Unified Memory doesn’t produce a partition, so data is all accessible with no duplications required. Graphics in both scenarios used similar amounts of system RAM. Integrated graphics didn’t have their own separate dedicated RAM the same as graphics cards. Unified Memory actually means that RAM can be freed up faster, and data doesn’t need to be duplicated as much, so Unified Memory doesn’t really increase swap memory usage.
Also, it’s not a “fact” that all games need lots of RAM. Apple focusing on gaming doesn’t equal “every model of every product we offer must run the heaviest games”. Base spec models are just that, base spec. They don’t need to run super resource hungry software. The whole reason that a base spec model exists, and that there are more powerful options beyond the base spec model, is because a base spec model saves you money if your needs are more moderate, and you don’t need a bunch of excess computing power, while more powerful options run heavier software and do more. By that argumentation, if any game requires 120GB of RAM, then the base spec would need to include 120GB of RAM, which is, of course, ridiculous.
I have done tests of my own, and my graphic design software runs with many large files open without using any swap memory.
This is a pointless debate, because at the end of the day, whether 8GB is enough or not is a subjective and opinion based thing. To me, 8GB is enough. You don’t think 8GB is enough, so you can buy something different if you want. This debate is silly and pointless.
It's weird* to try and argue 8gb is fine for a MBP, surely if you are going for a MBP you need something more powerful than an air, and thus 16gb is the bareminimum. My windows laptop came with 16gb and I can upgrade to 32gb for £100 or so. with apple i'd have to only the buy ram once I guess, but spend an extra £200 to achive ram parity. As an apple share holder (according to one poster that backs up their view to offer not enough ram??) I'd like to see a more competitive level of ram offered.
*Not insulting anyone so please don't report me because you disagree.
*Not insulting anyone so please don't report me because you disagree.
Basing the argument that 8GB in baseline configurations is insufficient because of gaming is a bit of a misnomer. Gaming PCs are not based on the lowest end baseline configurations. Gaming PCs traditionally have been high level configuration machines. If you’re gaming on a windows machine you’re not using a bargain level baseline configuration, why should that be different for a Mac?
If you’re interested in buying a Mac for gaming (which might not be a good idea due to software availability, anyways) you wouldn’t be interested in buying the lowest level baseline configuration anyways.