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derbothaus

macrumors 601
Jul 17, 2010
4,093
30
-ALAC and AIFF are both lossless formats, there is no quality difference between them.
-320kbps, not khz
-If you want to prove you can tell the difference between music files, you provide the results of a double-blind ABX test that show you can tell the difference at a 95% confidence level. Subjective descriptions of sounds being more 'warm', 'full', or 'rich' are meaningless.

No. Don't care enough. And you know what I meant with acronyms.
Descriptions like "warm", 'brown", "hard", etc exist abstractly to convey a message. They built studio and gear prowess just as easily. Your ancient gear had a slight character to it. You call it as you feel it not as you "geek" it. Always been that way.
 

avalonpb

macrumors newbie
Jul 25, 2008
4
0
I have the same question. I bought into the iTunes ecosystem only when the iPod started supporting ALAC playback and I expected ALAC content on iTunes to be just around the corner.

Here we are in 2012 and I've never purchased a song from iTunes. If they started selling them in ALAC, I would buy hundreds.

+1. Never bought a song on iTunes and never will until ALAC is available. There is no excuse at this point. If Apple can sell Logic and Final Cut as direct download only, the lack of lossless music in the iTunes store is just a giant WTF?!
 

Drunken Master

macrumors 65816
Jul 19, 2011
1,060
0
No. You should say "Vinyl CAN rock." Some of it is very good and some not as good as the CD version.

It is the same with other formats. 24/96 maybe not be better then 16/44.1 or it might be much better. I have examples of each. I LOT depends on the rest of the recording, the miss used the preamps and room itself and 1000 other things I'm sure.

Why should I say that? Doesn't "should" imply that there is some morality at play here?

I thought my true meaning was implied. Not everything needs to be explained step-by-step.
 

Colpeas

macrumors 6502
Sep 30, 2011
497
162
Prague, Czech Rep.
Did you use earphones or monitors? I usually listen with Westone 4's, which are good enough for listening but I'm not sure if they would be enough to differ between lossy and lossless. My studio monitors are Focal Solo BE's.

I'm not a huge fan of in-ears, so I used AKG K242HD headphones with Fiio E11 Amp. This setup seems to produce rather clear sound without distortions when connected to a decent source.

+1. Never bought a song on iTunes and never will until ALAC is available. There is no excuse at this point. If Apple can sell Logic and Final Cut as direct download only, the lack of lossless music in the iTunes store is just a giant WTF?!

Couldn't agree more.
 

ramuman

macrumors regular
Mar 7, 2005
222
0
+1. Never bought a song on iTunes and never will until ALAC is available. There is no excuse at this point. If Apple can sell Logic and Final Cut as direct download only, the lack of lossless music in the iTunes store is just a giant WTF?!

Same boat as you two here. The exception is that I will buy a Lady Gaga or some pop track I just want to listen to on Amazon or iTunes, but for the music I love (Led Zeppelin, Johnny Cash, Tool, etc.), I'm still forced to buy and rip a physical CD...in 2012.

I have no idea how a proper ecosystem doesn't exist for lossless or 192/24 and 96/24 or something along those lines. You have some crappy sites that deliver that, but nothing coherent.

Also regarding the "Pepsi challenge"...the most likely explanation is the crappy setup most people are using. On any proper system (the better Bowers and Wilkins, Revels, Wilsons and even Maggies or the like), if you love audio, you'll hear a difference between 256 AAC and lossless. The biggest and first thing lost in compression is the soundstage which is the first thing you notice about great speakers (at least for me).
 

derbothaus

macrumors 601
Jul 17, 2010
4,093
30
...if you love audio, you'll hear a difference between 256 AAC and lossless. The biggest and first thing lost in compression is the soundstage which is the first thing you notice about great speakers (at least for me).
Oh no. You said "soundstage". Apparently to the 0's and 1's crowd it does not exist. Imaginary. Bits are the same. But of course you are correct.
 

drumcat

macrumors 65816
Feb 28, 2008
1,139
2,825
Otautahi, Aotearoa
Clarifying...

Some things really need to be said on this thread...

First, FLAC, ALAC, APE, etc... if you are using a lossless data-compression format, you are simply taking digital audio, using a specialized application, making the file smaller. The quality of audio is unchanged. It's the equivalent of a .zip file. Please... don't confuse data compression anymore. It hurts my head.

Next, a couple of you called out the Pepsi Challenge. That's awesome. I love it. A few of you have such Golden Ears that you can tell the difference between a quality, variable-rate AAC encode and a 96/24 original all blindly A/B tested. Congratulations! You are effing awesome. We bow to your superior ears. Now, for the 99% of the world that cannot, I present to you, the iTunes store.

If you think Apple, one of the biggest companies on the planet gives a crap about the 138 people who can easily do that, you're wrong. They sell to the same crowd that wears those awful white, included earphones. 98% of people don't know at first why a .cda file wouldn't play. I would even venture to guess you have a family member that thinks AAC stands for Apple Audio something-or-other. Apple cares that the experience they offer is good enough for the vast majority. If you aren't the vast majority, bugger off to some site that will sell you FLAC.

A few other things... yes, higher rate audio is awesome. It does sound better. However, please note that everyone proving this through some ish anecdote has described using equipment that vastly goes beyond the bell curve of standard consumer spending. I have a sound system that costs more than the MBP, so I'll pat myself on the back too... that's not what this is about.

The Nyquist theorem basically states that in order to adequately reconstruct a frequency, you need twice the number of samples. This means that if you want to go as high as 24,000Hz, you need 48,000 samples per second to reproduce the waveform. You can go higher than 2x, but not lower. More samples are awesome, as they give you a more accurate electricity-to-speaker signal, but returns diminish quickly when it comes to data.

24-bit audio is awesome. If you record anything, it should be in 24 (or 32) bits. The bits of audio represent the number of places on the y-axis the curve can rest. So for samples, x-axis points, those are "over time". The bits are how many places they can be - so think 8-bit=nintendo sounds. 16=cd. Why 24? Math. You can do all sorts of math/effects to audio in 24 with high quality because the rounding errors are very low. 16-bit is a very good destination range, and for most, simply A/B testing a 24-bit 44.1k and a cd is a waste of everyone's time. People can't tell, providing it was dithered at high quality (rounded down well).

BluRay is compressed video. You probably have never seen uncompressed video. It's exceptionally rare and absolutely ginormous. If you have a system where you can watch 10bit 4-4-4, you kick butt. However, to be super-duper clear, BluRay is to Video as ~400k VBR AAC is to audio. It's a very, very good medium. It is almost transparent. To the untrained eye, it is the highest standard, and yet, it's nowhere close to... say, IMAX, or 4k.

So I assert, again, that if you need more than 256 ABR AAC audio, the iTunes store is the wrong place. If you see a "remastered" dog turd on iTunes, it's a turd all the same. Busted. Creed, Nickelback, guilty; they sell it. But if you like a song, pay the $1.29, and can't be happy with it, take your whiny butt to some other store. Buy the CD. Go to your favorite band's site, and buy FLAC there. Convert it from FLAC to ALAC (no harm!) and go.

But if you must fight, understand this is about other people than you. If you all want to whip out your johnson and measure, go do it with the understanding that you're just trolling. Yay for you, o hearer of minutia...great sultan of the DAC. Just don't act like it's your natural right to get lossless audio. It's not. The market doesn't sell to you. The market sells to where the money is, and for every one of you who thinks that AAC is some abomination, there's 499 people who think that FM radio is good enough.

Oh, and FM radio tops out at 15kHz. But you knew that, didn't you...

----------

You sound completely uneducated on the subject. 256 aac = VHS, not Blu-Ray.

Selling lossy audio in 2012 is a complete joke. 16/44 ALAC (CD standard) should be the absolute minimum for inclusion in the itunes store. If you decide to downgrade that audio to fit 5000 songs (most of which you never listen to) on your ipod at once to make you feel cool, then that is your choice. But to actually sell this downgraded, ultra-compressed, tinny-sounding garbage at full CD price is a farce.

People who buy music on itunes are complete suckers.

If you equate 256 AAC to be on par with "VHS" in the video world, I don't need to worry about how uneducated I sound.

And yes, the vast majority are all suckers. You're more right. Got it. Are people who bought CDs suckers as well, since they didn't get a 96/24? Or maybe it's "good enough" for people that the iTunes store managed to put a huge number of CD stores out of business, and managed to turn an industry where it was normal to steal things to one where people voluntarily pay for the same thing. Our mistake.
 

derbothaus

macrumors 601
Jul 17, 2010
4,093
30
^^^
Great post. I get CDs at Amazon for like 1.99. Most people should too. Always avoided iTunes buying.
So you are saying there is absolutely no way to falter in de-compression and have a lossless file sound any different than AIFF or WAV? Aside from glitch or obvious errors.
The only difference is the CPU usage? Lossless being a bit harder due to the expansion as playing?
I must have amazing placebo powers.
 

Johbremat

macrumors regular
Feb 8, 2011
149
16
Well-played, drumcat. Well-played.

And derbothaus? No. Lossless files explode to bit-for-bit copies of the original.



For anyone wondering, lossless tunes can be bought at Boomkat, Juno and Bleep (at least).



To anyone actually maintaining a lossless library...I'd be interested to know how many copies have you got, and for what.

Me?

- FLAC (archive)
- WMA Lossless (HTPC)
- 512AAC (DJing)
- 256AAC (iPod)
- 352A3P (Minidisc)
 

ramuman

macrumors regular
Mar 7, 2005
222
0
^^^
Great post. I get CDs at Amazon for like 1.99. Most people should too. Always avoided iTunes buying.
So you are saying there is absolutely no way to falter in de-compression and have a lossless file sound any different than AIFF or WAV? Aside from glitch or obvious errors.
The only difference is the CPU usage? Lossless being a bit harder due to the expansion as playing?
I must have amazing placebo powers.

Exactly. With a Prime membership and sellers that sell through Amazon, it's dirt cheap to get CDs.

Lossless is actually generally easier from a de-compression point of view. It's the size of the file that's the problem. My pre-amp will deal with any one of several formats that come in just fine, as would any decent pre-amp.

The problem is obviously that Apple, Amazon, and Netflix are the only innovative driving force in any entertainment industry these days as far as content delivery goes and they all have a huge interest in keeping file sizes small. I patronize all three of them quite heavily so...something about the whole glass house thing should shut me up. :eek:
 

drumcat

macrumors 65816
Feb 28, 2008
1,139
2,825
Otautahi, Aotearoa
^^^
Great post. I get CDs at Amazon for like 1.99. Most people should too. Always avoided iTunes buying.
So you are saying there is absolutely no way to falter in de-compression and have a lossless file sound any different than AIFF or WAV? Aside from glitch or obvious errors.
The only difference is the CPU usage? Lossless being a bit harder due to the expansion as playing?
I must have amazing placebo powers.

If you rip a CD into a series of wav or aiff files, the size will equal the bits on the disc. So a 600MB disc will yield 600MB of wav files.

Take a track off of that disc. Say it's 40MB. Turn it into ALAC, and now it's 20. When your device plays it back, it will create the exact 40MB file when it plays it back. No tricks; it just stores it smaller, and when you go to play it, your device decompresses the data on demand.

Say you make an ish mp3 out of it. It's 4mb. Your device uses those 4mb to make as close a representation of that 40mb as possible. It does a good job, but that's a *lossy* codec. A xerox-copy of the original. Technically, it still makes a wav or whatever of about 40mb on playback, but it varies an amount based on "educated guesses" the codec makes. That's the difference between audio quality. The more guesses, the more it doesn't get right, the lower the quality.

----------

You actually made a lot of sense in that post. But can't the 138 of us complain in peace? :p

In space, no one can hear you scream. :D
 

derbothaus

macrumors 601
Jul 17, 2010
4,093
30
And derbothaus? No. Lossless files explode to bit-for-bit copies of the original.

How do they "explode"? At playback after loading 1 full song or as each bit is requested causing constant expansion? I looked around and couldn't find the exact info. I am interested as I thought any change in file size resulted in something (app whatever) tossing out info/data at it's discretion:)

edit: Sorry just saw awesome explanation while I was typing. Thanks all. Clarity has found me.
 

Colpeas

macrumors 6502
Sep 30, 2011
497
162
Prague, Czech Rep.
Mastering for itunes is scam. Bring on lossless or 24/96 already.

I have a library of roughly 6000 songs, all of them are 16/44.1 and i'm not going to upgrade. I guess a lossless rip from a CD is satisfactory enough for most of 'regular' audiophiles (those w/out n-thousand-dollar audio equipment) like myself.
Don't get me wrong - I don't call people demanding 24/96 FLAC snobbish, they are just way too hardcore...
 

all300b

macrumors newbie
May 1, 2012
1
0
some additional points

(1) During conversion from digital to analog a filter is used that, despite the best intentions, degrades the sound quality to some degree. A nice aspect about the higher sampling rates (88/96/176/192) is the ability to filter "further away" from the audio spectrum.

(2) Digital volume control is getting better and can be very convenient. More bits allows better quality digital attenuation with less adverse impact on sound quality.

(3) It has to be re-empahsized: used CDs that play and rip fine cost $1.99- even with shipping that's less than 1/3 the cost of itunes.

(4) It wont be THAT long until flash based devices will have the near "unlimited" capacity as magnetic hard drives.

(5) I think Apple keeps the ALAC or AIFF versions on hand anyway.

Recognizing the sonic advantages of higher res audio is not simply a "1%" thing. We just happen to be in a current fad of accepting the ********* possible sound in recorded music history- from compressed digital files to uninspiring DACs to emasculated amplifiers to white plastic earpieces. It will change to the next thing sometime.
 

Mac32

Suspended
Nov 20, 2010
1,263
454
Maybe Apple consciously avoids giving users access to ALAC music files, specifically not to completely push CDs out of the marketplace. There could be some kind of unspoken agreement here we don't know about. Personally, I use Spotify and WiMP a lot of the time, but if I really want to *listen* to music I use my 2.5tb lossless (ALAC) music collection.
So yeah, I agree with those people here that Apple and others should offer lossless music. I've never bought an MP3 or other lossy file in my life, and I'm not going to either.
 

boomish

macrumors regular
Aug 1, 2008
122
0
Unfortunately until "Mastering Engineers" stop with the "Loud is good" ********, none of this matters.

Its literally the practice of polishing a turd.

While I agree the engineers are the guys doing this to mixes, it's the record companies demanding it! They have no choice as much as they might try and tell an A&R guy that all it's dynamics are lost when limiting that hard they want their single to be louder than someone else's release. So they do whey they get paid to do or they don't get paid.
The Polishing a turd saying is more for mixing than mastering BTW..
 

Lynn Belvedere

macrumors regular
Mar 13, 2012
237
0
And yes, the vast majority are all suckers. You're more right. Got it. Are people who bought CDs suckers as well, since they didn't get a 96/24? Or maybe it's "good enough" for people that the iTunes store managed to put a huge number of CD stores out of business, and managed to turn an industry where it was normal to steal things to one where people voluntarily pay for the same thing. Our mistake.

1) iTunes didn't put anyone out of business. You are absolutely dreaming in technicolor if you think itunes had anything to do with the death of the CD. Piracy killed the CD, not itunes. 100% free music killed the local CD store, not Apple or Steve Jobs. If people could download Macbooks for free, Apple would die an agonizing death too. I guess you could argue that the ipod had a hand in the death of retail music, but itunes certainly didn't.

2) The CD has been the gold standard for audio since 1982. It's been the best format that is widely commercially available, so people who buy that format are not suckers. Think about it, people (suckers) are actually paying MORE in some cases for digitally compressed garbage sold on itunes vs. the lossless 16/44 version found on CD. It's baffling.

3) Think about how sad it is that Apple is selling media that has been outclassed since 1982 (30 years, for those who have trouble with math). In 30 years, Apple hasn't only refused to improve the quality of media, they actually made it substantially worse. That is actually laughable. What's next? Will Apple start selling Betamax tapes through a catalogue?

----------

And pop, and scratch, and warble, and wear out, and artificially colour the sound, and require turning over half way through. Apart from all those things, it used to be great.

Don't forget the warping. It's always fun to pay $40 for a reissue, open it, and discover it's warped beyond all recognition and virtually unplayable.

Quality control on new vinyl is horrendous.
 

Augure

macrumors regular
Sep 3, 2009
225
0
I'm a music geek too.

But I won't fall into the whole "Lossless" debate, and go straight to the point: In 2012 am I the ****ing only remaining one who see the huge marketing BS this "Mastered for iTunes" proprietary shvt is ?
 

gullySn0wCat

macrumors 6502
Dec 7, 2010
396
0
I still don't understand why they are not selling ALAC. The huge datacenters they built should support those transfers easily nowadays.

Diminishing returns?

Let me clarify: I am all for choice, but you cannot honestly posit that Apple would be gaining hordes of customers if they allowed downloads in lossless, esp. considering the small storage capacity of Apple products these days.
 
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