Adobe Acknowledges That Apple's Flash Prohibition Could Harm Business

[John.B]

I'm going to get flamed for this, but Adobe may just pull the plug on Creative Suite for MacOS X in retaliation for Apple not allowing CS5-created iPhone/iPad apps. Such a move would seriously hurt Apple in the short run, since it means Apple will have to massively upgrade Aperture to offer PhotoShop-like functionality and will have to scramble to find a new partner for high-end illustration applications.

It is CS4 that literally drives sales of high-end iMacs and Mac Pros, since many CS4 users run them on Macs. If Adobe says that CS5 will not be available for the Mac, that could hurt high-end Mac sales until Apple releases it own high-end image-processing and illustration programs as replacements, in my humble opinion.

Try to keep up...

The revenues for the CS product line are about 50/50 between Mac and Windows versions, according to John Nack.

There is no way Adobe can afford to take that kind of a revenue hit. Especially having just invested 18 months in the CS5 upgrade being rolled out this Monday. The shareholders would throw Narayen out on his arse within an hour of making that decision. And for what, because some manager of the Flash CS5 development team got his panties in a wad?

 

[SimonMW]

It would be nice if Safari and Firefox would both support H264 and OGV.

 

[Banyan Bruce]

Time to buy antivirus software for OS X ?

Oh dear, Apple is starting to become a little MS like and that attracts all the wrong type of attention !

 

[Banyan Bruce]

Aside from Flash, Adobe makes a lot of very good stuff that is at the very corps of Apple's systems - Postscript, Display Postscript, pdf...

If Apple irritates Adobe enough, they could really get themselves in trouble. If Apple is serious about wanting Flash dead, then they should just buy Adobe so they can kill Flash once & for all while having full control over their other corps technologies. Given Apple's cash on hand and their relative market valuations it's very doable. On the other hand if they just wait around and keep irritating Adobe, they might drive Adobe into the arms of Google or Microsoft and then Apple would be in a real pickle.

So true !!! Be careful or just buy them out and get on with the job.

 

[jragosta]

I'm going to get flamed for this, but Adobe may just pull the plug on Creative Suite for MacOS X in retaliation for Apple not allowing CS5-created iPhone/iPad apps. Such a move would seriously hurt Apple in the short run, since it means Apple will have to massively upgrade Aperture to offer PhotoShop-like functionality and will have to scramble to find a new partner for high-end illustration applications.

Anyone with any understanding of the industry realizes how stupid that idea is.

First, Adobe would give up half of its revenues - and would probably be bankrupt in under a year.

Second, Apple would sue Adobe for antitrust violations. It would be fairly easy to argue that Adobe has a monopoly in the professional graphics software market. Given that, it's illegal to use your monopoly position in one market to leverage your position in a different market. If Adobe used its graphics software market as leverage for the web software market, they'd lose the antitrust suit so fast their heads would spin.

It's just not going to happen - no matter how many times uninformed juveniles suggest it.

 

[R.Perez]

I didn't know anyone actually used Safari till now.

Talk about a piece of **** browser, I think it's the only browser I hate more than IE.

Firefox and Chrome FTW.

 

[MorphingDragon]

I didn't know anyone actually used Safari till now.

Talk about a piece of **** browser, I think it's the only browser I hate more than IE.

Firefox and Chrome FTW.

You do know that Safari and Chrome ar identical up until the GUI code right?

 

[R.Perez]

You do know that Safari and Chrome ar identical up until the GUI code right?

There are HUGE differences in usability.

 

[MorphingDragon]

There are HUGE differences in usability.

You mean the GUI

 

[ranReloaded]

Anyone with any understanding of the industry realizes how stupid that idea is.

First, Adobe would give up half of its revenues - and would probably be bankrupt in under a year.

Second, Apple would sue Adobe for antitrust violations. It would be fairly easy to argue that Adobe has a monopoly in the professional graphics software market. Given that, it's illegal to use your monopoly position in one market to leverage your position in a different market. If Adobe used its graphics software market as leverage for the web software market, they'd lose the antitrust suit so fast their heads would spin.

It's just not going to happen - no matter how many times uninformed juveniles suggest it.

Still, without dropping the Mac OS X line of CS, they could deliberately make them suck more and more compared to its win counterparts, and blame Apple for 'not providing such and such APIs'... I don't think they are such dicks, though.

 

[MorphingDragon]

I don't think they are such dicks, though.

Umm, I'd think about that for a little while.

 

[jajohns8]

Not our fault that you're stuck with a dead technology because you're unwilling to stay up with the times.

Please tell us what Flash will do that html 5 won't do. But before you do that, watch the Toy Story iAd demo.

Dead technology?
You obviously don't work in the industry.
(Keep reading tech blogs to sound as if you do though.)

If the best you can come up with is the keynote, well than, wow. I am rather unimpressed.

Since you claim to know so much, tell me how long it took and how large a team of people they had to work on this with?

Oh yeah, you cant.

 

[SG1-1]

Dead technology?
You obviously don't work in the industry.
(Keep reading tech blogs to sound as if you do though.)

If the best you can come up with is the keynote, well than, wow. I am rather unimpressed.

Since you claim to know so much, tell me how long it took and how large a team of people they had to work on this with?

Oh yeah, you cant.

I really don't understand why you have not answred his question, you obviously can not and have to add a spin to change the subject.

HTML5 can and does do a very good job at doing all that flash does, and with allot less memory & CPU usage.

You may try to use your "I am better then you are attitude" by cutting down the other poster, but you have proven that is all you can do, so answer his question, and you still can't.

Only a fool will turn away from a question that is truthful and hounest so what is your excuse for not answering his direct question.
All we have seen is a post that has nothing to do with his question to you and you in turn try to spin it as the poster is an uneducated user that is not in the feild....

I have seen answers tha are NOT answers all the time and it just proves that if you cannot directly answer a direct and well versed question without belittling or tring to disprove the questioneers question you have no clue in what you post and are a bottom feeder. Enjoy you false deluision of being more educated in the facts but you are not if you can't directly answer a simple question without cutting the poster down while still not answering the question. I will say it over and over you have no answer and can't disprove that HTML5 can't do it all and much better.

And I am sure you didn't even watch the Toy Story and other HTML5 proof ads in the keynote, but you try to disprove the keynote, Really.. Well if that's all you got then.... Your words... Not much.

I also want to see the answer to the question without the garbage filler nonsence, and since you are the one who attacked the other poster first it's fair to say that you can't answer the question or you would have done it without the alphamale ego BS you added that had nothing to do with the original post.

Hatred is easily spoted but when confronted will run in the face of truth.

 

[jajohns8]

I really don't understand why you have not answred his question, you obviously can not and have to add a spin to change the subject.

HTML5 can and does do a very good job at doing all that flash does, and with allot less memory & CPU usage.

You may try to use your "I am better then you are attitude" by cutting down the other poster, but you have proven that is all you can do, so answer his question, and you still can't.

Only a fool will turn away from a question that is truthful and hounest so what is your excuse for not answering his direct question.
All we have seen is a post that has nothing to do with his question to you and you in turn try to spin it as the poster is an uneducated user that is not in the feild....

I have seen answers tha are NOT answers all the time and it just proves that if you cannot directly answer a direct and well versed question without belittling or tring to disprove the questioneers question you have no clue in what you post and are a bottom feeder. Enjoy you false deluision of being more educated in the facts but you are not if you can't directly answer a simple question without cutting the poster down while still not answering the question. I will say it over and over you have no answer and can't disprove that HTML5 can't do it all and much better.

And I am sure you didn't even watch the Toy Story and other HTML5 proof ads in the keynote, but you try to disprove the keynote, Really.. Well if that's all you got then.... Your words... Not much.

I also want to see the answer to the question without the garbage filler nonsence, and since you are the one who attacked the other poster first it's fair to say that you can't answer the question or you would have done it without the alphamale ego BS you added that had nothing to do with the original post.

Hatred is easily spoted but when confronted will run in the face of truth.

I didn't attack anybody there, Francis.
Get your facts straight about this thread first, then we can move on to more complex things like computer science, programming languages, accessing data, etc.

He quoted me and attempted to debate ME.

I am replying to that.

Ok, I'll play along, though.

Here is one thing that Flash does very well, when compared to HTML5:
Provides a robust IDE.

Now you can go back to watching the "Toy Story" IAd example from the keynote (which I have seen) that is "so awesome."

Explain to me, in detail, how I would go about performing a complex series of tween animations, with dynamic data for a current project. Any idea what scripting language to use? Any idea how you can access your data?

I know how to do this, and could explain to you how to do this, in detail, with both technologies.

The trouble here, is that you cannot.

Please, write another 8 paragraphs that show you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[gigi1701]

Having followed this flash anti-flash However,

When I want to animate a little cartoon for my neice, I can open flash and draw, import media, animate it, and play it for her.

In html5, I have to learn a f*ing programming language to do it? Or, we're not supposed to, since in the interest of keeping skilled programmers in business, who will presumably do a better job of creating the content, I now have to pay someone several thousand dollars to make it?

F that.

HTML5 will be a success when there's a content composer with a decent GUI people can quickly learn and use. Not before.

Incorrect. You can still use Flash for that, no one is stopping you and you can even export it as a .mov file if you want it to play on the iPad or as an animated gif as well. I am still using the Flash program as an animation tool, it works well, I am just not using the .swf format.

What you can't do is sell it in the Apple app store, which you likely wouldn't anyway, you have to be a real business and pay a yearly fee to do that. A friend of mine who has is own business creating software for Macs (and PC too) just faxed in is application to Apple to be able to submit to the App store. He uses xCode to write his programs. He agrees that using Flash to port code for an Apple app would not run as well and could have problems, he agrees with Apple's stance in not having them in the App store.

There is so much mis-information about the Apple/Adobe thing flying around that it is getting quite ridiculous. Only two things can't happen... one having Flash player as a plugin on the iPhone et all (and there is even a javascript workaround that can be used but the swfs play horribly slow) and apps made in Flash being sold in the App store. Apple has every right to say what they will and will not sell in their store, just like every other store in business does.

 

[jajohns8]

Apple has every right to say what they will and will not sell in their store, just like every other store in business does.

Sure, and just because it makes better strategic sense for Apple financially, doesn't mean that HTML5 is superior to Flash.

 

[kcwookie]

I am happy to read that others are looking into alternatives to flash because I have to admit that the cooling fan of my 2.2 GHz MBP with 4GB RAM starts going crazy every time I am on a website with flash. I check the activity monitor and as expected it shows at the top of CPU usage Safari Flash. Flash is always the most CPU intensive process and drains my laptop battery.

Flash is crapware in the first degree. It constantly misbehaves on my wife's macbook. I'm so glad that it's not on my iPod and iPad 3G. I wish Apple would bring out a photoshop and Illustrator killer and round out their pro apps. Once they do that Adobe will be in the same garbage can as Palm.

 

[jajohns8]

Flash is crapware in the first degree. It constantly misbehaves on my wife's macbook. I'm so glad that it's not on my iPod and iPad 3G. I wish Apple would bring out a photoshop and Illustrator killer and round out their pro apps. Once they do that Adobe will be in the same garbage can as Palm.

Yeah, good luck with that.
A shame that your MBP cant handle Flash. Never had a problem with mine.

As far as Apple releasing a "Photoshop killer"....

Ever heard of Aperture? (that worked out real well.)

To all the people in this thread that are bashing Adobe/Flash just because Steve Jobs says it's ok to, and without any other practical reason, there is an article by the Onion that you really should read.

I don't know the policy on this site for linking, but simply google:

"onion iphone"

You do realize the rest of the world makes fun of you for your blind allegiance, right?

 

[gigi1701]

I have been a web designer for close to fifteen years. I have learned CSS in that time and it is a hard thing to learn. People used Flash so they didn't have to work hard and develop real websites, they could just use a Flash template and have total control of the website, but it is a closed environment and not a good one at that.

I had to use Flash when clients wanted it, but it was (is) always a PITA! It is a closed system, I don't even know how it interfaces with a touch screen since it is mouse driven. Lately all of my clients want Flash off their sites, and it isn't just for the iPad/Phone/Pod it is because if you look at any search engine optimization tutorials the FIRST thing they say is to remove ALL Flash from a website! Search engines cannot read that closed system, so you can't use search engine ranking techniques on any part of your site that is Flash driven.

Playing video in Flash is a waste of resources, the only reason for it to be in Flash is to use the Flash player and for nothing else, so html5 is superior in instances where you are not trying to protect your video content.

Right now there is a war only because Flash is so over used and people who have invested money in it are not wanting to change. But more and more people are not wanting it on their websites, all but two of my clients (out of thirty or so) had me take all Flash content off of their sites. What will dictate the market is what the clients want on their websites period and in my personal experience people wanted anything dependent on the Flash player plugin off their site.

As I have said, that doesn't mean the Flash program is useless, but the Flash player plugin situation is rapidly changing and will continue to change no matter how much people are making fun of this all right now.

 

[khanjee]

Adobe Platform

Experiences are necessary to learn new things and it cannot be said in advance that something will bring harm or not because sometimes the situation becomes totally different.

Khanjee
ArticleWorlddb

 

[bradleys83]

There are a few things that bug me about this flame war:

1. I didn't realize Aperture was in any way supposed to be a Photoshop killer? It's an extended version of iPhoto - there to manage digital assets and provide some reasonable re-touching tools. Photoshop is used just as much to build content from scratch as it is to modify existing content.

2. The Flash plugin is CPU intensive and buggy on any platform, not just MacOS - it's a byproduct of it's cross-platform nature, the plugin has to dynamically re-compile code as it runs which is a resource intensive process - much like Java.

3. Flash stepped into the breach when there were no alternatives, Adobe/Macromedia should be applauded for that. Prior, releasing video content online that could be played in every browser and on every platform was near impossible, or, worse, involved the use of RealPlayer or Windows Media.

4. There is now a better alternative - that's HTML5. Just like flash put an end to the embedding of Java applets in web pages years back, so to will HTML5 eventually kill Flash off. That's not a problem, it's not because Apple is mean or Adobe is being hard done by - it's evolution in the technology sector. One day Adobe may release a platform that kicks HTML5 to the curb.

5. The Flash IDE isn't really what I would call 'Robust' in fact, it's anything but. It's an IDE targeted at non-developers, kind of a bridge between the design world and the code world. It did that job well for those particular users, but, it's been abused and Flash has been called upon to do things it really can't and shouldn't - this, in many ways has lead to the current performance and stability issues, the technology is being over-extended.

6. There is nothing stopping Adobe from pulling Mac support, but, as you all realize, it would be a silly move to make. You can't turn around and alienate more than 50% of your market due to a technology dispute. It's commercial suicide. There is however also nothing stopping Adobe from taking a step back, evaluating their Flash product AND HTML5 and perhaps releasing a flash-like editor/IDE that produces HTML5 content but with Adobe tools that are familiar to millions of Flash developers and devotees.

7. This will probably get me kicked - but - Those that make entire websites from flash movies should not be developing websites. Period. If it breaks the 'Back' button, it's wrong (Same goes for the over-use of AJAX) Just because you can, doesn't mean it's the best idea, or, even that you should.

8. The references to Apple becoming like Microsoft are a little perplexing - were Apple to become more like Microsoft, it would be a "Come one, Come all" environment, no restrictions on compilers/user interaction/quality - and, well, we've all seen how that's worked out for Windows users - glaring compatibility issues, huge UI inconsistencies, performance problems and a myriad of IDE/Language/Compiler combinations that often don't perform as advertised.

It's simple, from what I can see, Flash has been, now it's going and soon will be gone. Apple is trying to drive adoption of a better technology that it sees will improve the end-user experience for hundreds of millions, not only Mac users.

When a much loved technology - like Flash - begins to get sidelined and millions of fluent flash developers suddenly find themselves less relevant, well, there is going to be a huge fuss. The smart ones will simply move with the times, embrace the new technologies and probably keep using Illustrator/Photoshop/InDesign to generate the image components of their content.

 

[jacobj]

Comments like this are so silly when you consider that, in general, people don't want Apple (based on sales numbers).

I find the comments that people make are sometimes remarkable. Clearly Apple sales figures are high within the market that they target. Adobe feels genuinely threatened by Apple's latest move and that threat would not make it into an SEC filing unless it was considered genuine. Therefore Adobe also see sales figures of Apple's product to be significant enough to change overall market conditions.

Too often people seem to confuse the manner in which individuals live their lives to be reflected in corporate interaction. SJ may well have no love for Adobe, but one does not take a company from the verge of bankruptcy to being one of the largest in the world simply by operating the company on personal likes and dislikes for any given product or company.

I have been an Apple user for many years now and I am tired of people choosing to either evangelise or demonise Apple. People seem to genuinely believe that Apple followers are mindless sheep that herd into any direction that SJ requests. That is simply a falsity. People are excited by new Apple products because the company have a history of developing and producing exciting and practical new software and hardware. Those of us that buy their products don't continue to do so because we are dumb automatons that shove the latest gadget into the drawer 2 months later; we buy them because they fulfil a purpose.

Arguments that we will buy Apple even if it is not the best also hold very little water. I buy Apple not because it is the best specced hardware or even the best piece of software available. I buy Apple because for all the premiums that they may charge me, they deliver an overall environment where I never even have to think about the device or software that I am using. I use the device to just do things. I will not list them because they are many.

This may sound like a publicity skit from the mouth of Jonathan Ive, but their design philosophy which is so often mentioned is not just marketing; based on output, it seems to be genuine.

This is not all in response to the quote above, but I just picked the one that I thought was the most inane!

Back to the subject at hand: Apple's lack of Flash support may annoy the hell out of many of us and the transition from Flash to HTML5 may be peppered with frustrations, but I believe that Apple are right: the only time that my computer jumps out at me and reminds me that it is there by crashing or hanging is when I am using Flash. It takes away from the experience and makes me have to think about whether or not I have lost unsaved work etc.

Adobe is a great company that delivers many great products, but Flash was always a "flash" in the pan. Any technology that fills a feature gap in another will eventually fade once that feature gap has been filled. Flash filled the gap in HTML and now that gap is closing.

Longevity comes by being the technology in which the gap exists (e.g. Photoshop, HTML, telecommunications). The long-term business model for Flash has been on the cards since it began and if Adobe failed to see it and react to it, then they failed their shareholders and employees, not Apple.

 

[jajohns8]

There are a few things that bug me about this flame war:

1. I didn't realize Aperture was in any way supposed to be a Photoshop killer? It's an extended version of iPhoto - there to manage digital assets and provide some reasonable re-touching tools. Photoshop is used just as much to build content from scratch as it is to modify existing content.

2. The Flash plugin is CPU intensive and buggy on any platform, not just MacOS - it's a byproduct of it's cross-platform nature, the plugin has to dynamically re-compile code as it runs which is a resource intensive process - much like Java.

3. Flash stepped into the breach when there were no alternatives, Adobe/Macromedia should be applauded for that. Prior, releasing video content online that could be played in every browser and on every platform was near impossible, or, worse, involved the use of RealPlayer or Windows Media.

4. There is now a better alternative - that's HTML5. Just like flash put an end to the embedding of Java applets in web pages years back, so to will HTML5 eventually kill Flash off. That's not a problem, it's not because Apple is mean or Adobe is being hard done by - it's evolution in the technology sector. One day Adobe may release a platform that kicks HTML5 to the curb.

5. The Flash IDE isn't really what I would call 'Robust' in fact, it's anything but. It's an IDE targeted at non-developers, kind of a bridge between the design world and the code world. It did that job well for those particular users, but, it's been abused and Flash has been called upon to do things it really can't and shouldn't - this, in many ways has lead to the current performance and stability issues, the technology is being over-extended.

6. There is nothing stopping Adobe from pulling Mac support, but, as you all realize, it would be a silly move to make. You can't turn around and alienate more than 50% of your market due to a technology dispute. It's commercial suicide. There is however also nothing stopping Adobe from taking a step back, evaluating their Flash product AND HTML5 and perhaps releasing a flash-like editor/IDE that produces HTML5 content but with Adobe tools that are familiar to millions of Flash developers and devotees.

7. This will probably get me kicked - but - Those that make entire websites from flash movies should not be developing websites. Period. If it breaks the 'Back' button, it's wrong (Same goes for the over-use of AJAX) Just because you can, doesn't mean it's the best idea, or, even that you should.

8. The references to Apple becoming like Microsoft are a little perplexing - were Apple to become more like Microsoft, it would be a "Come one, Come all" environment, no restrictions on compilers/user interaction/quality - and, well, we've all seen how that's worked out for Windows users - glaring compatibility issues, huge UI inconsistencies, performance problems and a myriad of IDE/Language/Compiler combinations that often don't perform as advertised.

It's simple, from what I can see, Flash has been, now it's going and soon will be gone. Apple is trying to drive adoption of a better technology that it sees will improve the end-user experience for hundreds of millions, not only Mac users.

When a much loved technology - like Flash - begins to get sidelined and millions of fluent flash developers suddenly find themselves less relevant, well, there is going to be a huge fuss. The smart ones will simply move with the times, embrace the new technologies and probably keep using Illustrator/Photoshop/InDesign to generate the image components of their content.

I see what you are saying and even agree on some points.

(I disagree with your assessment of the Flash IDE. To each his own on that.)

My main gripe here, is that so many people in this thread only take Apple's side out of blind allegiance, and no other legitimate reason. They read a few tech blogs, etc, and think they know everything.

That's annoying for people, like me, who have to actually work with the software technologies that are being debated. We have to actually solve real business problems with the technologies involved, now.

I'd love to use some magical technology that is "Better than Flash" for some projects I have.

But it's not here yet.

It would take me 3x as long and not look half as good if I were to use HTML5 now.

Sorry, but that's the reality. (for now.) 2 years down the road is an eternity in web tech. That's a different story. (That's when everyone is claiming HTML 5 will be "up to par.")

But I can't wait for that. I have stuff I have to do, NOW.

If some magical HTML5 dev out there can "show me the enlightened way", hey by all means let's hook up.

 

[GoodWatch]

I see what you are saying and even agree on some points.

(I disagree with your assessment of the Flash IDE. To each his own on that.)

My main gripe here, is that so many people in this thread only take Apple's side out of blind allegiance, and no other legitimate reason. They read a few tech blogs, etc, and think they know everything.

That's annoying for people, like me, who have to actually work with the software technologies that are being debated. We have to actually solve real business problems with the technologies involved, now.

I'd love to use some magical technology that is "Better than Flash" for some projects I have.

But it's not here yet.

It would take me 3x as long and not look half as good if I were to use HTML5 now.

Sorry, but that's the reality. (for now.) 2 years down the road is an eternity in web tech. That's a different story. (That's when everyone is claiming HTML 5 will be "up to par.")

But I can't wait for that. I have stuff I have to do, NOW.

If some magical HTML5 dev out there can "show me the enlightened way", hey by all means let's hook up.

Didn't the whole 'CPU hogging', 'buggy code' and other misery started after His Holiness Jobs said so? A year ago it wasn't an issue.... But I must be wrong and many of you will point this out, I'm sure.

 

[gceo]

Why is it that I can produce and edit videos, and burn them to DVD on my Mac, but I can't watch a Youtube video to save my life???

Bloatware.