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lincolntran

macrumors 6502a
Jan 18, 2010
843
471
You can believe what you want when it comes to military satellites. Not gonna force the issue, but let's just say I was personally involved in this particular field for several years. Public information regarding what our govt can or can't do, may or may not be fact. But I'm glad you believe that we can't target something down to the centimeter.

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Possibly. Except in one crucial area; Street View. This is a very time consuming and costly thing, that Apple is years and years behind on.

Street View is not that useful. It's fine when you sit at a desk and try to browse the streets but it's not practical when you actually use for navigation. In term of sitting at the desk, I find fly over and 3D mapping on Apple map superior than street view. It gives me a true interactive experience instead of a static 2d point and click like street view.
 

robjulo

Suspended
Jul 16, 2010
1,623
3,159
Can we get a map that scrolls while navigating before we worry about accuracy within centimeters.
 

chucker23n1

macrumors G3
Dec 7, 2014
8,573
11,321
Street View is not that useful. It's fine when you sit at a desk and try to browse the streets but it's not practical when you actually use for navigation. In term of sitting at the desk, I find fly over and 3D mapping on Apple map superior than street view. It gives me a true interactive experience instead of a static 2d point and click like street view.

I don't know what kind of places you travel to, but even for the very few towns worldwide where FlyOver is available, it hardly gives any useful info on what your destination actually looks like, unless that destination happens to be some tourist place. With Street View, there's a pretty good chance you can see what the very street the hair stylist you want to go to looks like.
 

Lloydbm41

Suspended
Oct 17, 2013
4,019
1,456
Central California
Street View is not that useful. It's fine when you sit at a desk and try to browse the streets but it's not practical when you actually use for navigation. In term of sitting at the desk, I find fly over and 3D mapping on Apple map superior than street view. It gives me a true interactive experience instead of a static 2d point and click like street view.

So you find flyover more useful to find an unknown location? I can give you several hundred thousand scenario's where you wouldn't be able to determine where you were going based off a flyover map (especially one based off of Apple geo-location data which can be horribly off). Street View gives granular data (like say a specific sign for a business, or address number on a building, if there is metered parking or any parking on street, which subway entrance to use, can I back up into a specific alleyway, etc. This sort of detail is impossible with Apple Maps and why most people use Street View.)

BTW, 3D mapping and flyover is cool (Google has these features too in case you didn't know), but you can only get 3D mapping in certain cities and it still relies on satellite imagery (which may be years old and out of date). Maybe Apple plans to use drones with 360 degree cameras to start getting this sort of detail, who knows, but it really needs a Street View to compete with Google Maps.
 

chucker23n1

macrumors G3
Dec 7, 2014
8,573
11,321
BTW, 3D mapping and flyover is cool (Google has these features too in case you didn't know), but you can only get 3D mapping in certain cities and it still relies on satellite imagery (which may be years old and out of date).

Actually, Apple's 3D mapping is done using airplanes, not satellites.
 

rbrian

macrumors 6502a
Jul 24, 2011
784
342
Aberdeen, Scotland
Street View is not that useful. It's fine when you sit at a desk and try to browse the streets but it's not practical when you actually use for navigation. In term of sitting at the desk, I find fly over and 3D mapping on Apple map superior than street view. It gives me a true interactive experience instead of a static 2d point and click like street view.

I use it to confirm if the location is correct, which it isn't in more than 10% of my company's locations, which were stupidly based on postcodes instead of coordinates. Postcodes sometimes change, and some don't even exist anymore. Satellite view allows me to guess at a location, street view confirms it.

Apple maps probably doesn't even show the road, Google maps always does. I like the way that Apple maps works on the lock screen, and it has a nicer interface overall, but with so much data missing it's basically worthless to me. I try it every couple of months, to see if anything has changed, and then I go straight back to Google.

When I moved into a brand new house, I sent corrections to half a dozen mapping services. Google maps updated within a week. Open Street Map took 6 months. 2 years later, Apple, TomTom, Garmin, Here, and Co-Pilot still don't show my street. Of course, the leaky Android incident probably means that Google will now be as bad as the others.

Can it really be that hard? It's no secret my street exists. It's been on paper plans since 2008!

Aren't we all being watched by satellites which can recognise faces? How come they can't identify roads? ...or did Enemy of the State lie to me?
 

Fiestaman

macrumors regular
Feb 7, 2009
243
83
Apple *should* have bought Waze when it had a chance. I have a feeling Google bought Waze just to keep it out of Apple's hands.

I personally use Waze instead of Maps and Google Maps. Waze is far superior in my eyes. Any errors/road closures/road changes are very quickly reported and fixed. The plethora of features and crowd sourced reporting is amazing.
 

ptb42

macrumors 6502a
Oct 14, 2011
703
184
There are still two codes sent out on the L1 frequency, the military's encrypted, and more accurate, P(Y) code and the civilian use C/A code.

Yes, there are two codes. But, the military's encrypted code is no longer more accurate, because the non-encrypted code is no longer degraded. The two codes now provide the same position information, although as someone else has pointed out: the military code uses two frequencies and it makes it possible to do ionospheric correction, and improve the results. But, you can also do this in a civilian receiver without decrypting the military code:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_analysis_for_the_Global_Positioning_System#Atmospheric_effects

With Selective Availability, the C/A code was intentionally degraded with a pseudo-random sequence. But by executive order, that value was set to "zero" in May, 2000.

Future GPS satellites will not support SA at all. However, there will be a new code for use by the military that is intended to prevent jamming:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_Block_IIIA#Military_.28M-code.29
 
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Tech198

Cancelled
Mar 21, 2011
15,915
2,151
I would think the military would have more to protect over some home user using a GPS.
 
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ptb42

macrumors 6502a
Oct 14, 2011
703
184
I would think the military would have more to protect over some home user using a GPS. (thus the need for security there)

No, the original reason for Selective Availability was to prevent a enemy from using a GPS receiver for precise targeting in real-time.
 

webfarer

macrumors newbie
Feb 4, 2014
6
0
It is good that you guys have finally started to update the title with details like "[confirmed]". No false rumors anymore I guess.
 

mdelvecchio

macrumors 68040
Sep 3, 2010
3,151
1,149
Seems to me that they are trying to add GPS to the Apple Watch..

this wouldn't help that. they buy their comm radio chips from other companies. they could add one today, were it not for the crummy battery life it would suffer in the very small form factor of the AW.

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Thank goodness! If you had used the notoriously inaccurate Apple Maps, you undoubtedly would have walked right off the side of your ship and fallen into the ocean. :rolleyes:

not in my experience. the maps are great, the app is great, it's only the POIs that are less good than google's.

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Wonder if this has anything to do with 3rd party external GPS units no longer working with iOS - Apple wants you to only buy their own... :eek:

but their own what? Apple doesn't sell external gps units, so that sounds like nonsense.

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It's fine in first world countries. The backwaters of the world are less important.

hey, look who's here!
 

koruki

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2009
1,346
669
New Zealand
Apple buys smaller technology companies from time to time, and they generally do not discuss their purpose or plans
 

BBCWatcher

macrumors regular
Jan 28, 2008
139
153
Maine
Global iMessage and SMS?

The Iridium system, particularly the next generation one, has the capacity to handle more short messages -- and without the funky satphone antennas required for voice. So how about truly global, text only iMessage and SMS coverage in the iPhone 7? How about global emergency location broadcast to rescuers/family in the iPhone 7 and Apple Watch 2? Those would be killer apps.
 

a0me

macrumors 65816
Oct 5, 2006
1,074
166
Tokyo, Japan
I predict Apple Maps will totally blow away Google Maps after after the June 10th WWDC announcements. They have been working on this release for about 3 years and have purchased the following companies:

PlaceBase
Poly9
C3 Technologies
WiFiSlam
Locationary
HopStop
Embark
BroadMap

Read about these companies expertise and you will better understand Apple Maps. The Apple Maps platform already beats Google Map in several categories not to mention user interface and architecture.

If Apple bought Coherent, it is for their expertise in working with Iridium's network which allows communication globally when out of cellular range. You can buy an Iridium Go on Amazon for about $800 which will allow you to communicate globally with your cell phone.

Check it out here: https://youtu.be/hcrBE5hkuRU

Check out this Stanford presentation...
http://scpnt.stanford.edu/pnt/PNT09/presentation_slides/12_Bencze_iGPS.pdf
None of this fix Apple Maps' biggest problem: their map data are still incorrect or inaccurate.
 

Keirasplace

macrumors 601
Aug 6, 2014
4,059
1,278
Montreal
None of this fix Apple Maps' biggest problem: their map data are still incorrect or inaccurate.

You mean like the idiot Google map data in my neighborhood North part of Montreal, 3 big errors for 5 years, no fix, in New Brunswick were my grand parents were, everything seems wrong since inception.... In St-Sauveur (north of Montreal), wrong street name since forever (sending people in the wrong direction when they try to find our cottage) and streets in existence for 20 years inexplicably don't connect with each other! I can go on like that for quite some time.

The only possible issue with Apple maps is POI, nothing else; and this is only the case in certain areas. It's obvious why Google would have an advantage there.
 

Keirasplace

macrumors 601
Aug 6, 2014
4,059
1,278
Montreal
I'm guessing Apple snapped up the talent from a failing company. I really doubt that Apple, or any one else, is going to add a satellite radio and pay for Iridium service for an incremental improvement in navigation. These guys certainly have GPS and radio expertise though.

They have always been able to turn Selective Availability off, including on the existing satellites. SA introduces a 100m random error by messing with the clocks on the satellites. They turned it off when they realized they could just impose it for specific regions. To this day, the US uses that as a sign of pending aggression: if SA is on in your region, you better start making concessions before the troops land.

The relativistic corrections are handled by a frequency offset in the atomic clocks. There are periodic updates made to the ephemeris data though to reflect orbital corrections.

Centimeters are available to civilians with the right equipment and proper corrections services. The reason we don't have cm's in most consumer units is because most are single frequency and suffer from errors due to the unpredictability of the ionosphere and troposphere. Professional equipment tracks additional frequencies that can be used to cancel out those errors, and receive correction information from other receivers at known positions that are tracking satellite errors of other sorts.

The biggest problem though, hands down, is multi path. Trees, buildings, your head, all cause position errors. There's no way around that.

With no other secondary receiver (base station) with a well known actual position, that can issue correction to primary receivers in the vicinity to tell them how "off" the signal they're receiving is, you don't get high precision (1 cm). You can also get almost the same by creating virtual base stations (through inference) by connecting base station together (CORS) (less than 2 cm).

With just once receiver, you can't improve that much upon straight up GPS no matter what satellite system you use (or combination, you're still in the same spot subject to the same influences :).

In Cities they could set many base stations on buildings (beacons really), and just triangulate in between them. They basically do that for cell towers (but they are be too far one from another for the precision needed).
 

powertoold

macrumors 6502
Sep 8, 2014
374
450
Apple can buy any tech company in the world and then say:

"Apple buys smaller technology companies from time to time, and we generally do not discuss our purpose or plans,"
 

a0me

macrumors 65816
Oct 5, 2006
1,074
166
Tokyo, Japan
You mean like the idiot Google map data in my neighborhood North part of Montreal, 3 big errors for 5 years, no fix, in New Brunswick were my grand parents were, everything seems wrong since inception.... In St-Sauveur (north of Montreal), wrong street name since forever (sending people in the wrong direction when they try to find our cottage) and streets in existence for 20 years inexplicably don't connect with each other! I can go on like that for quite some time.
I could go on and on about how Apple Maps in Japan (the country where iOS has the biggest market share) is laughably inaccurate when compared to Google's. And I'm not nitpicking about some small town in the countryside either but about the maps for Tokyo, the world's largest city.
To be fair, Apple Maps have made some progress in the last 3 years but that isn't saying much since at launch, it looked like Apple, outside of the US, had outsourced their maps to a bunch of drunk monkeys.

The only possible issue with Apple maps is POI, nothing else; and this is only the case in certain areas. It's obvious why Google would have an advantage there.
Apple Maps severely lacking POI is the reason why location based reminders on iOS are almost useless.
 

Gasu E.

macrumors 603
Mar 20, 2004
5,036
3,158
Not far from Boston, MA.
Not sure why you felt the need to make a sarcastic comment. I was simply trying to help the guy out. If Apple Maps ever allows us to save maps for offline use, he will be able to use that, as well.

Friendly suggestion: if you're going to post on the internet, grow a thick skin, a sense of humor, and a set of gonads, in that order.
 

Jimmy James

macrumors 603
Oct 26, 2008
5,488
4,067
Magicland
I predict Apple Maps will totally blow away Google Maps after after the June 10th WWDC announcements. They have been working on this release for about 3 years and have purchased the following companies:

PlaceBase
Poly9
C3 Technologies
WiFiSlam
Locationary
HopStop
Embark
BroadMap

Read about these companies expertise and you will better understand Apple Maps. The Apple Maps platform already beats Google Map in several categories not to mention user interface and architecture.

If Apple bought Coherent, it is for their expertise in working with Iridium's network which allows communication globally when out of cellular range. You can buy an Iridium Go on Amazon for about $800 which will allow you to communicate globally with your cell phone.

Check it out here: https://youtu.be/hcrBE5hkuRU

Check out this Stanford presentation...
http://scpnt.stanford.edu/pnt/PNT09/presentation_slides/12_Bencze_iGPS.pdf

You believe Apple has held back on correcting map inaccuracies that they've been remapping for years and that they're then going to roll out worldwide updates in one release?
 
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