Apple in 'Advanced Talks' With Mobile Telecom Groups for Standardized 'e-SIM' Cards

[Pakaku]

It's pretty crappy that Apple locks iOS. What a terrible company. Right?

What are you even on about?

SIM Cards are a competely different things from operating systems. Having a card I can take out has absolutely nothing to do with the software of the phone.

 

[0007776]

You can't blame the virtual SIM tech for that. It's the carriers choice. I'm from Europe so I'm not too familiar with CDMA carriers but I guess they aren't as spoilt for choice as GSM users?

Basically it is because they don't have a sim that it makes it much easier for them to only approve specific devices for their network and not allow anyone else's. If this virtual SIM becomes a standard for GSM it will be the same way because carriers will have to approve the device before it is activated and why would they want to activate someone else's device when they could get more money by forcing you to buy from them?

 

[Glassed Silver]

If it were as easy as entering the SIM card e-number into your new phone, that would be pretty easy, in my opinion.

Uh hm, and you don't think that given some time companies will find ways to create new hurdles for you?
Maybe under the "current reign" this will be all rosy and beautiful, but just like with presidential orders, as soon as a new reign comes every order can be overthrown.

And to be perfectly honest, juggling with numbers and entering doesn't seem much easier than popping in a SIM card that takes just as long.

I've seen a lot of crap happen in the tech world where we were told something becomes easier and often times when something becomes easier you lose flexibility one way or another.

Glassed Silver:mac

 

[00sjsl]

What are you talking about?

I was asking why a SIM is even needed.. this makes it easier to change network, so you're kinda just adding to my point.

Apple SIM is restricted to only a few networks in the UK, presumably it would be the same for a future eSIM. With a physical user replaceable SIM I can choose which ever network I want (assuming of course I buy the phone SIM free, so its not locked to any network).

Why do you think that an eSIM (or no SIM atall) would make it easier to change network?

 

[Edgar Spayce]

If it's not an excuse to lock iPhones 6S to restricted list of phone service and contracts, then okay.

Problem is OF COURSE it'll be used this way.

Solution: I live in Europe where people are still a little less "gullible" than american, and Apple will be sued for antitrust.

 

[Michael Goff]

If it's not an excuse to lock iPhones 6S to restricted list of phone service and contracts, then okay.

Problem is OF COURSE it'll be used this way.

Solution: I live in Europe where people are still a little less "gullible" than american, and Apple will be sued for antitrust.

Of course they will be. Europe loves the antitrust lawsuit more than fat people love McDonald's.

 

[unplugme71]

I was definitely not saying that it was better than GSM, it's one of the reasons why I've mostly avoided Verizon. And there was nothing other than carrier's willingness to activate the phone keeping CDMA phones from switching networks, I've seen Sprint branded CDMA devices working on a local CDMA carrier overseas that apparently didn't have a problem activating them. Even if this becomes a standard that is used worldwide unlike CDMA we will see the same things happening with most carriers refusing to activate other carriers devices. This just makes it much easier for carriers to lock us in.

I had Verizon before 3G became widely available and I loved their CDMA network. It was fast and reliable. Then the iPhone came out and saw the many limitations of CDMA. Now I won't look back. AT&T has had a solid network, great customer service, and zero billing problems. I could never say that about Verizon (other than their network pre-4G/LTE)

 

[0007776]

I had Verizon before 3G became widely available and I loved their CDMA network. It was fast and reliable. Then the iPhone came out and saw the many limitations of CDMA. Now I won't look back. AT&T has had a solid network, great customer service, and zero billing problems. I could never say that about Verizon (other than their network pre-4G/LTE)

Yep, Verizon has gotten better about letting you use non Verizon phones since LTE forced them to start using SIM cards. I don't understand why people would want to go back to a time before we had that convenience.

 

[bniu]

Yep, Verizon has gotten better about letting you use non Verizon phones since LTE forced them to start using SIM cards. I don't understand why people would want to go back to a time before we had that convenience.

Eventually, competition will force Verizon to allow all phones onto their network. Now with fewer and fewer people buying phones on contract, phone manufacturers can refuse to make verizon specific phones, customers will balk at having to buy all new handsets to switch to verizon, and Verizon's network won't be the best forever either.

 

[0007776]

Eventually, competition will force Verizon to allow all phones onto their network. Now with fewer and fewer people buying phones on contract, phone manufacturers can refuse to make verizon specific phones, customers will balk at having to buy all new handsets to switch to verizon, and Verizon's network won't be the best forever either.

And Verizon has already mostly changed that at least for the iPhone because they moved to having SIM cards for LTE. And as long as Verizon still uses CDMA for voice there will usually have to be separate phones for Verizon regardless of the competition.

 

[LucasEVille]

It could be even more useful if you could have a 'sim wallet' so that when roaming you can choose which sim to use (e.g. if you go abroad)

This is a must, as someone who regularly roams. Although with the EU directive on roaming charges this could change.

 

[jmmo20]

You need to change SIM if your phone is out of juice, or you want to lend your account to someone else.
Also, if I change my number or I have a long-term contract, it's convenient to keep the SIM in another phone as a backup or pass the SIM on to someone else. If I have bought a special-purpose SIM (e.g. when travelling abroad to get a good deal on data), I want to be able to put this into my phone. I may also want to borrow a friend's SIM (e.g. when travelling abroad). All of these will probably be blocked by an e-SIM. These are common things to do in Europe.

How do you know those things will "probably" be blocked by an esim?
A carrier will only be able to "own" the limited space within that company's "esim profile".
As long as esims allow for multiple profiles as they claim, company A won't be able to keep you from having company B, C or D. The only thing they can do is "kidnap" your phone number so that you don't move it from company A to company B, but they can already do it with real SIM cards if htey reject portability on debt grounds, for example. In such cases there won't be absolutely any difference between a physical SIM and an Esim.
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Without SIMs it becomes very easy for the carrier to decide that they will only activate devices originally sold for their network. That's how it was until very recently on all US CDMA networks, and I believe it is still that way with Sprint, the only thing that has forced them to move away from that model a little bit is the addition of a SIM card for LTE.

They can already do that with real SIMs.
It won't happen in Europe. They know that if they give you headaches with that, you will just simply select the next carrier in the iOS menu.

 

[0007776]

How do you know those things will "probably" be blocked by an esim?
A carrier will only be able to "own" the limited space within that company's "esim profile".
As long as esims allow for multiple profiles as they claim, company A won't be able to keep you from having company B, C or D. The only thing they can do is "kidnap" your phone number so that you don't move it from company A to company B, but they can already do it with real SIM cards if htey reject portability on debt grounds, for example. In such cases there won't be absolutely any difference between a physical SIM and an Esim.
[doublepost=1456847073][/doublepost]

They can already do that with real SIMs.
It won't happen in Europe. They know that if they give you headaches with that, you will just simply select the next carrier in the iOS menu.

Look at what Verizon and Sprint did before they had sim cards, you couldn't use your phone on another network. It will be exactly the same with an esim as with CDMA.

 

[jmmo20]

Basically it is because they don't have a sim that it makes it much easier for them to only approve specific devices for their network and not allow anyone else's. If this virtual SIM becomes a standard for GSM it will be the same way because carriers will have to approve the device before it is activated and why would they want to activate someone else's device when they could get more money by forcing you to buy from them?

But why, why are you making that assumption?
By definition GSM/LTE phones are always allowed, I know of no carrier that locks devices sold outside their control. They only block stolen phones. I fail to see why they would change strategy because of a change in the way they control SIM cards. Nowadays they don't even make the SIM cards. Gemalto makes all sim cards and simply provide the carrier with a very secure database of IMSI/Ki signed keys.
Having esims won't change that at all. Quite possibly Gemalto would adapt their business from providing physical sims to provide the esim infrastructure. It would make literally ZERO difference to the carrier.
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Look at what Verizon and Sprint did before they had sim cards, you couldn't use your phone on another network. It will be exactly the same with an esim as with CDMA.

Because they had no control over the actual phone, so the control had to be on their end. IF they allowed 3rd party phones you could get to a point where in one US state your phone would connect to one CDMA carrier and in the next it could connect to another. I'm not sure if in the US there was ever two carriers in the same location but how would CDMA manage two phones with the same serial number requesting linking to two simultaneous CDMA carriers?

GSM takes care of all that through HLR.
One specific IMSI code can only be registered in one carrier no matter where in the world that phone or that carrier is. What carries your subscriber line is the SIM card, no the phone itself. That won't change with eSims, it will simply move from a physical chip in a plastic frame to a chip inside the device. With technologies like touch ID Apple has demostranted that they can build a chip that is safe enough not to be read by 3rd parties. That is all a SIM card needs, be it physical or "virtual".

 

[0007776]

Because they had no control over the actual phone, so the control had to be on their end. IF they allowed 3rd party phones you could get to a point where in one US state your phone would connect to one CDMA carrier and in the next it could connect to another. I'm not sure if in the US there was ever two carriers in the same location but how would CDMA manage two phones with the same serial number requesting linking to two simultaneous CDMA carriers?

It wouldn't try to connect to multiple one's simultaneously. From a technical standpoint Sprint and Verizon phones have always been interchangeable, it was just carrier policy to not add the other carrier's phone to their whitelist. Those policies have now changed primarily because sim cards were introduced with LTE and the carriers no longer had that complete control over the phone that they used to have.

 

[pika2000]

Well, can't wait not having to bring the freakin tray-eject pin with me when I travel.
First, I thought this would be a bad idea. But then if it's put into a standard, then it would be as easy as selecting the carrier from the available signals (ie. similar to picking a specific network via network search).

Thing is, there are several things that carriers do right now to make good money. In some countries, carriers are selling "tourist" SIMs in airports. This is quite a money maker as you have tourists paying money upfront for the specific priced plans (usually quite "pricey" as they are loaded with things that you may not need). I assume with this eSIM, anybody would have access to all the plans the carrier has, thus allowing tourists getting the cheaper/less fancy plans right off the bat. Not sure if carriers would like that idea.

 

[jmmo20]

It wouldn't try to connect to multiple one's simultaneously. From a technical standpoint Sprint and Verizon phones have always been interchangeable, it was just carrier policy to not add the other carrier's phone to their whitelist. Those policies have now changed primarily because sim cards were introduced with LTE and the carriers no longer had that complete control over the phone that they used to have.

As far as I understand the CDMA system is fairly simple. The phone would connect to the first CDMA network and provide a serial number, if the CDMA network gave the OK then the phone becomes your line. Technically speaking there was nothing stopping 2 different carriers from having the same serial number registered for the same phone, meaning the same phone could belong to two different networks depending on where the user actually turned on their phone.

In GSM that whole system is handled by a HLR server and the IMSI number in the sim card is the actual subscriber ID.

All GSM networks in the world aren't going to change overnight because of how an old system used to be run in the US.
IT's as easy to break as having a single carrier not adopting that silly whitelisting policy.

 

[jujufreeze]

The fact that AT&T approves of it tells me its bad for consumers.

 

[jmmo20]

Well, can't wait not having to bring the freakin tray-eject pin with me when I travel.
First, I thought this would be a bad idea. But then if it's put into a standard, then it would be as easy as selecting the carrier from the available signals (ie. similar to picking a specific network via network search).

Thing is, there are several things that carriers do right now to make good money. In some countries, carriers are selling "tourist" SIMs in airports. This is quite a money maker as you have tourists paying money upfront for the specific priced plans (usually quite "pricey" as they are loaded with things that you may not need). I assume with this eSIM, anybody would have access to all the plans the carrier has, thus allowing tourists getting the cheaper/less fancy plans right off the bat. Not sure if carriers would like that idea.

I was in the same boat as you. At first I thought it was a pretty bad idea.
Until I realised I was already using a eSim like roaming service called Knowroaming. Their sim sticker contains several profiles for each world region, so depending on where you land it activates the European profile (provided by a polish carrier), the Italian profile (provided by TIM), the US/Israel profile provided by Orange Israel, and so on.

In terms of "tourist" SIM cards, carriers already do this. They could enforce "tourist" tarriffs depending on the lenght of the service. In any way, the carrier will still earn more money than if the user was using their normal sim in roaming mode.

In terms of data when a user arrives to a different country, it could be solved two ways. The user could "buy" the new SIM profile before leaving their home country, OR, the local carrier could allow for a "guest" APN that would only connect to the carrier's network, thereby allowing the iphone to download tariff information and arrange SIM profile provisioning.
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The fact that AT&T approves of it tells me its bad for consumers.

AT&T and other big telcos need to approve of this because it going to happen with or without them.
By being in they actually have some say and some insider information. Otherwise the changes will be imposed based on decisions made by third parties.

It's not like they can just crawl back on the floor and have a child tantrum and wish esims away..