Apple Offers Developers a Closer Look at the New Mac Pro

[ctone]

As an audio and music pro, I know that external drives & PCI chassis never work as well as they do when the drives and PCI cards are located internally. Any time that these get taken outside of the computer, additional compatibility issues come into play, additional latency gets introduced, and generally the system becomes less stable and less reliable.

For example, daisy chaining FireWire drives should work fine, but I have seen all kinds of problems due to daisy chaining drives using enclosures that have different chipsets.

 

[FluJunkie]

In implementation, yes. In concept, old hat.

True. Though if they nailed the implementation of that, it would be awe inspiring.

 

[cmanderson]

The transitional period you suggest doesn't help. Because we need a period of time that both TB and PCIe are supported in one machine. They could reduce the number of PCIe slot so we are prepared that the next external solution upgrade will have to be TB, but the current solution still need to be PCIe for a while. It will ease our expenses by a great deal!

Yes, customers will determine the success of the unit. That is why AAPL no longer like the pro market. That's why XServe and Mac Pro sales suffer. People working in professional know what tool we actually need to profit ourselves. We're not student, we're not rich kids, and we certainly are not fanboy. We cannot just upgrade everything because we want a new machine to show off! If all we want is a powerboat but nothing else, then what new Mac Pro offer is superb. But that's about it!

At the end we will for sure come up with solutions to deal with it -> either change to Windows/Linux, really spend great deal of money but we could just use iMac's TB port, or whatever. But before the new Mac Pro actually came out, we NEED TO COMPLAIN. Remember what happened to MBP 15"'s Firewire after we complain? Well... FW doesn't really matter now but it mattered at that time. Remember the FCPX complain? We hope AAPL could listen to what we discuss as I actually did E-mail them about it, but then if we silence just like other fanboys on this site told us to do, then we will really just change to another platform when AAPL failed to deliver our needs. If we don't care about AAPL then why we bother complaining? Tons of professional already goes to Windows/Linux world and they have proven to be good match to Mac's solution. But we simply don't like changes so we stay. And look at the change we have to make now!

I'm glad you have a place to vent, at least.

 

[dolphstar73]

I think Apple swiped some designers from...

..the Dyson Vacuum Cleaner company. Just think of the ad slogans..."It's the PC that doesn't lose power when the memory fills up". But if they're going to do this why not make it in that purpledy and grey color so it will match my Animal. And I bet they charge extra for the Thunderbolt upholstery brush.

But really, if it churns out video as well as my Dyson sucks up dog hair, it'll be worth it.

 

[Cold-1]

As an audio and music pro, I know that external drives & PCI chassis never work as well as they do when the drives and PCI cards are located internally. Any time that these get taken outside of the computer, additional compatibility issues come into play, additional latency gets introduced, and generally the system becomes less stable and less reliable.

For example, daisy chaining FireWire drives should work fine, but I have seen all kinds of problems due to daisy chaining drives using enclosures that have different chipsets.

I am in the same boat in a way that I have two Multifaces by RME Audio, each connected to a special PCIe card in my Mac Pro. But RME showed that there is no problem using the PCIe-Cards in an external enclosure over TB.

 

[BayouTiger]

As an audio and music pro, I know that external drives & PCI chassis never work as well as they do when the drives and PCI cards are located internally. Any time that these get taken outside of the computer, additional compatibility issues come into play, additional latency gets introduced, and generally the system becomes less stable and less reliable.

For example, daisy chaining FireWire drives should work fine, but I have seen all kinds of problems due to daisy chaining drives using enclosures that have different chipsets.

That certainly used to be the case with FW, but with Thunderbolt basically moving the internal bus to the cable that problem has been conquered. I know I do not keep any data on the Mac's hard drives at all and I never see any latency with the Pegasus. It is in fact better than the internal spindle and not by a small amount.

I know it's hard to accept changes when it has potential to disrupt your workflow (and thus livelihood), but you have to let go of preconceptions to move forward some times.

 

[melendezest]

Why the surprise?

Apple has never been interested in being everything to everybody.

Yes, Apple pulled the rug out from under many pros, especially some that'd been waiting for their "dream" Mac. But this isn't new. Apple simplifies. Apple sculpts. They are like the guy chipping away at a piece of marble: more often than not, they take away pieces to make what they want to make. They did this with the xserve, they did it with the original iMac, 17in MBP; they do it to their notebook lines all the time.

So yes, Apple does not care about the "pro" or "enterprise" markets in an all-encompassing sense. This Mac Pro is specific to those who see it's modular design as a plus and are able to use its features while improving Apple's bottom line (I theorize this thing'll be cheaper to make than the current Mac Pro, just by the sheer loss of volume).

A "pro" computer for "every-type-of-pro-there-is" this is not, and they knew that out of the gate. They are simply not interested (and never have been) in catering to everyone. They alluded to this in the keynote. Steve alluded to this philosophy in one of his D3 interviews, where he implied that (when it comes to products) Apple is relatively small and has to pick carefully which horses to bet on.

So, I feel sorry for you guys Apple left out in the cold. Apple didn't give you what you wanted (or needed, in some cases). I know how you feel (I wanted a retina 17" MBP, and it looks like I'll never get it).

But this machine is awesome in every way; a true piece of (apparently very powerful) computing art. In a way, this brings Apple back and shows that they still "Think different".

I see it as the Cube v2; the spirit of the Cube done right.

I think it'll sell like crazy because even "non-pros" like me will buy it due to it being both beautiful and powerful. The "intersection of technology and liberal arts" indeed.

I'll be getting rid of my beloved iMac for this as soon as I can.

 

[HyperZboy]

What I don't get is REALLY?

NOT A SINGLE SATA DRIVE AVAILABLE INSIDE?

NOT A SINGLE BLU RAY OR DVD BURNER INSIDE?

That's a shame because I don't need all those cables and external devices.

One or two 4 TB drives + the SSD would do the trick.

I can see why they've delayed this product and in an unusual Apple manner pre-announced it. Clearly they didn't know what to do with his last idea.

 

[Peace]

What I don't get is REALLY?

NOT A SINGLE SATA DRIVE AVAILABLE INSIDE?

NOT A SINGLE BLU RAY OR DVD BURNER INSIDE?

That's a shame because I don't need all those cables and external devices.

One or two 4 TB drives + the SSD would do the trick.

I can see why they've delayed this product and in an unusual Apple manner pre-announced it. Clearly they didn't know what to do with his last idea.

I would say clearly you are not the target audience for the new Mac Pro.

Get a PC.

 

[AidenShaw]

I am in the same boat in a way that I have two Multifaces by RME Audio, each connected to a special PCIe card in my Mac Pro. But RME showed that there is no problem using the PCIe-Cards in an external enclosure over TB.

And how much do you have to pay to buy the external enclosure to run the cards that you plugged into a free ("free" meant to be interpreted in at least two way) slot of your MP?

 

[HyperZboy]

I would say clearly you are not the target audience for the new Mac Pro.

Get a PC.

What kind of PRO does not need Blu Ray and/or DVD burning or importing DVD capability or a seriously large internal drive?

It looks like an incredible machine, and I'm not slamming it, but it's missing 2 things that have to be added externally, so what exactly is the market for this machine?

I personally would buy it, but I don't want to be in wire an external add on hell. Sorry Apple. Fantastic machine, but doesn't meet the requirements of a standard pro machine. It lacks the internal storage requirements and the DVD capabilities desired by digital editing pros. I should know since the machine I'm typing this on has been used to edit Hollywood movies! HELLO!

It might be faster and cooler looking than my current Mac Pro, but it looks like this was one of Steve Jobs last half baked ideas. His idea of killing off the the floppy drive was brilliant and ahead of its time, but killing off the DVD or hard drives is just suicide. Sorry. Like I said, I think the machine is brilliant, but as Steve Jobs himself could have said, it's a World of Cable & External HURT. It's just missing too much for that much money.

And no I will not buy a PC. I'll just keep my current Mac Pro and upgrade it which you can't do on this either, but that doesn't mean others will do the same.

If it just had space for 1 hard drive & one DVD, it would be functional for a professional right out of the box. But it's not. If Apple doesn't get its act together on the Pro market, they might even lose PIXAR and I'd bet PIXAR is not even using Mac Pro's anymore. This new Mac Pro is a World of cable & Add On Hurt. Sorry.

 

[relimw]

Be glad you missed you missed the tape days. Not that new-fangled magnetic stuff, but old-school punched tape. Paper for the routine i/o and mylar versions for distribution to the field. It did have one cute feature - you could actually figure out the computer code by visually identifying the patterns of punched holes.

Hmm, actually at my first job, we did have one of those, pity the fool that dropped the box (I did it only ONCE!)

 

[xbjllb]

What kind of PRO does not need Blu Ray and/or DVD burning or importing DVD capability or a seriously large internal drive?

It looks like an incredible machine, and I'm not slamming it, but it's missing 2 things that have to be added externally, so what exactly is the market for this machine?

Any pro that needs that capability already has it. And won't be getting rid of their old tower either, when you can use it as a node for Logic, FCP, and rendering.

This isn't a replacement for the old Mac Pro; it's in addition. Which is why they made it smaller for on desk use. While the older one goes under. Or further to the side, whatever.

And all the people grousing about the power switch... You can't turn the thing around and maybe LEAVE it that way to access all the cables?

And to the one grousing about people who never turn their mac off? Maybe it's always rendering 3d or video 24/7, eh? Mine is.

Now that's pro use.

 

[laurim]

Any pro that needs that capability already has it. And won't be getting rid of their old tower either, when you can use it as a node for Logic, FCP, and rendering.

This isn't a replacement for the old Mac Pro; it's in addition. Which is why they made it smaller for on desk use. While the older one goes under. Or further to the side, whatever.

And all the people grousing about the power switch... You can't turn the thing around and maybe LEAVE it that way to access all the cables?

And to the one grousing about people who never turn their mac off? Maybe it's always rendering 3d or video 24/7, eh? Mine is.

Now that's pro use.

Have you been reading my mind when you wrote this? Shame on you

My 2008 Mac Pro will become a second rendering machine as soon as I pick one of these new babies up. The 3T of hard drive storage in the old machine will be additional networked storage for design media and archived project files whose elements I often need access to in new projects. Then there's my external hard drives I use for additional storage. I also have a bare hard drive sata dock I use for project archiving. I rarely use the optical drive since all the results of my motion graphics work is transferred digitally on a traveling drive and via Dropbox. No problem turning on the new one on since it's so small it can stay on my desktop as opposed to my old one that has to sit on the floor. People who don't already have peripherals aren't really "pros", imho.

 

[fortysomegeek]

What kind of PRO does not need Blu Ray and/or DVD burning or importing DVD capability or a seriously large internal drive?


I personally would buy it, but I don't want to be in wire an external add on hell. Sorry Apple. Fantastic machine, but doesn't meet the requirements of a standard pro machine. It lacks the internal storage requirements and the DVD capabilities desired by digital editing pros. I should know since the machine I'm typing this on has been used to edit Hollywood movies! HELLO!
This new Mac Pro is a World of cable & Add On Hurt. Sorry.

DVD/BD rom is not a pre-requisite.
I shuttle 10-30GB files to clients all day long. Burning a BD-R takes about 30-40 minutes to fill up 25GB.
Guess what, copying 30GB from internal SSD to a Thunderbolt dock w/ Samsung SSD 830 takes 1 minute 40 seconds.
That is 1.40 minute vs 40 minutes.


seriously large internal drive?
Drives encumbered by low IOPS.

The largest platter drive you can get is 4TB. And guess what, it operates the same via Thunderbolt as it does via internal SATA.
I know. My 27" iMac's interal 1TB drive is slooooower than a 4TB Seagate Thunderbolt desktop drive w/ a 7200 rpm drive. 105 Mb/sec vs 160.

There is NO translation with Thunderbolt like there is with USB or Firewire. It shows as a SATA drive. It even has S.M.A.R.T. readings. That is a big misconception people have. Thunderbolt is native PCI. There is a SATA controller. Often SATA6 which outperforms eSATA. It is not like USB or Firewire where there is a host controller that does pseudo SCSI commands. S.M.A.R.T. is fully supported via Thunderbolt.

Thunderbolt drive via Seagate STAE129 and 4TB 7200 rpm drive. It sees it as a regular AHCI SATA drive.

As you can see, with picts to prove my point, I get full 6 Gigabit link.

And here is the internal 2012 iMac drive for comparison. SATA3. What happens when SATA is upgraded to SATA9? That is not forward thinking. Apple went with PCIe.

4TB Thunderbolt outperforms the internal drive.

Internal

You don't want to see my benchmarks for external Thunderbolt raids.
Storage is getting bigger and it is better to go external.

PCI slots to expand your storage? Sure, if you want to put in a $1,000 SAS controller for your $16,000 SAS Raid. But guess what, with Thunderbolt, you don't need to spend $1,000 for that PCI SAS controller. All you need to buy that R4 or Pegasus R6. eSATA blows because it tops out at 225 MB/sec. Besides SAS, what is better than Thunderbolt RAIDs on the market?

See this? This is a $16,000 SAS Raid connected to an old Mac Pro.
The new Mac Pro does 1.25 Gb/sec. And with A Pegasus R6, I can kit it for $2,000 and do a 1 hour 4K video. Try that with a current Mac Pro with PCI slot expansion.

Start embracing Thunderbolt because it is a beautiful thing. It is cheaper than SAS solutions used by Pros. Oh, I forgot, some pros worry about BD-R. I had that itch to and bought a USB portable BD-R that I can use on all 5 of my macs. It was $40 at Frys. A LG model on sale. Probably $80 not on sale. Is that gonna hold you up on a computer purchase?

I used it once but got tired of the write. I even went out and bought a 5.25" internal optical BD-R and that was a waste of money when I can copy faster via USB 3.0 sticks and not have the messenger wait for the burn to finish.

SSD and Thunderbolt are a match in heaven. Connected to a Thunderbolt SSD, I have iMacs that boot in 7 seconds and load every single Adobe CS 5 apps in less than 5 seconds. Clicking on PS, Indesign,Illustrator...etc It is kind of handy. I take the same Thunderbolt SSD onsite and use on my client's iMacs. I boot directly into it instead of using whatever they have on their internal drives. It is much, much ,much faster.

That is why I don't get the internal large drive requirement. 7200 rpm drives a dog slow. Apple shows it can produce 768GB SSDs. I know, I have that on my macbook.

 

[fortysomegeek]

And all the people grousing about the power switch... You can't turn the thing around and maybe LEAVE it that way to access all the cables?

The whole thing is 9 inches tall. It is like turning off the switch of an external raid box. It isn't that big. On your desk,you don't have to do gymnastic twists and contortions to get to it.

 

[skier777]

And that's precisely why Apple needed to radically change the form factor - because traditional workstations are a teeny niche market, growing smaller every year in relation to the rest of the computing industry.

The new Pro will appeal to a much broader array of customers. I wouldn't be surprised if they double their sales.

People who have too much money to spend still wont buy this. Apple needs to make a product for the people who use that to generate their income. Photographers, cinematographers, animators etc all are willing to buy the highest end machines because they know they will get a ROI from it. But radical change isn't something these people want. If I have to spend a week setting this thing up, buying drives, enclosures, formatting them, setting them up into complicated RAID arrays that have never been done with thunderbolt, buying monitor adapters, calibrating colors from the new cards, getting drivers and updating firmware, confirming chipset compatibility and making sure you have enough power strips to run all of your external stuff; not to mention making sure we buy external DVD drives and enclosures that are compatible, basically a week long DIY computer build from parts you can't easily find or afford, that is one week I havent worked.

A reliable and efficient upgrade is what they are looking for, no one else has the money to spend on this new machine.

 

[laurim]

People who have too much money to spend still wont buy this. Apple needs to make a product for the people who use that to generate their income. Photographers, cinematographers, animators etc all are willing to buy the highest end machines because they know they will get a ROI from it. But radical change isn't something these people want. If I have to spend a week setting this thing up, buying drives, enclosures, formatting them, setting them up into complicated RAID arrays that have never been done with thunderbolt, buying monitor adapters, calibrating colors from the new cards, getting drivers and updating firmware, confirming chipset compatibility and making sure you have enough power strips to run all of your external stuff; not to mention making sure we buy external DVD drives and enclosures that are compatible, basically a week long DIY computer build from parts you can't easily find or afford, that is one week I havent worked.

A reliable and efficient upgrade is what they are looking for, no one else has the money to spend on this new machine.

What makes you think you can speak for Pros like myself? What do YOU do for a living? Everything you mentioned is either ALWAYS involved with buying a new computer or not necessary because the new MacPro is compatible with the externals we already own because there are enough different ports that are backwards compatible with usb and firewire adapters. Getting drivers??? Are you a pc person? I am a one-woman design shop out of my house. I have lots of power strips, hard drives, adapters, etc. If I have to buy a couple thunderbolt to firewire adapters or whatever, it's no big deal. Because I'm a PRO.

 

[benji888]

Originally Posted by Prof.
Someone on here said it is plastic. According to a quick google search, it is indeed aluminum.

Originally Posted by benji888
omg, just go to apple.com people...google? seriously?

Ah yes, god forbid an Apple user also uses a Google product. The horror!

what I meant was, just go to the source where it tells you right there what it is made of (apple.com), no need to do a search, DUH!!

 

[benji888]

Originally Posted by benji888
This is fantastical!

Anyone who wants to complain can go get a big 'ole PC tower, stay old school, and quit wining!

I think you mean whining. Don't miss your english class next period.

hahaha, nah, let's have some wine with that...red or white?

but, really, yeah, I meant "QUIT WHINING" ...let's go back to beige boxes with nubus cards, SCSI & serial ports and...oh, yeah, zip drives for backup.

(this is one of those things spell checker can't catch)

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

Any pro that needs that capability already has it.

That is simply untrue or do you think no one new ever gets into any business? Do we not have students still graduating high school and college? Are people not born new every day while older people die?

If newcomers (which can include PC people that discover they like OSX better) don't have an older Mac Pro and ultimately cannot buy one, exactly how is the new Mac Pro an "addition" to the official lineup?

 

[toke lahti]

I shuttle 10-30GB files to clients all day long. Burning a BD-R takes about 30-40 minutes to fill up 25GB.

BD is not good for shuttling.
It is good for distribution and archiving.

The largest platter drive you can get is 4TB. And guess what, it operates the same via Thunderbolt as it does via internal SATA.

This you got right.
Same storage is as fast through TB as internal. TB is only a lot more expensive.

 

[subsonix]

This you got right.
Same storage is as fast through TB as internal. TB is only a lot more expensive.

Chances are it already is external if you have taken redundancy and backups into consideration.

 

[GermanyChris]

Chances are it already is external if you have taken redundancy and backups into consideration.

right but now what is internal is external. I now have to move my 6 drives out of box and have backups out of the box. Storage and working data belong in the computer, backups belong external, and archives are bare drives that don't get plugged in.

 

[subsonix]

right but now what is internal is external. I now have to move my 6 drives out of box and have backups out of the box. Storage and working data belong in the computer, backups belong external, and archives are bare drives that don't get plugged in.

Backups should probably not be in the same machine, not sure if that's what you meant. But I see what you are saying, 3 drives worth of data, 3 as mirrors is an edge case. But also at the limit of what the box can take.