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Doctor Q

Administrator
Staff member
Sep 19, 2002
39,859
7,734
Los Angeles
Ironically, more people may see Windows desktops in Apple retail stores than in Microsoft retail stores. I was in a mall recently where the two stores were a few steps from each other. The Apple store was full of people browsing or shopping, while there was one lone customer in the Microsoft store.
 

nsayer

macrumors 65816
Jan 23, 2003
1,252
777
Silicon Valley
Windows what?

If they really want to encourage usage, they should demo it with Windows 7. Windows 8 is unbelievably awful - and particularly so when used in an emulator. I have found that many of the gestures that are supposed to make Windows 8 suck less are really hard to do with an emulated mouse (particularly the edge detection ones). Microsoft tried to merge the tablet and laptop experience with W8 and wound up giving us the worst of both worlds.

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i've been always wondering why folks run word/excel/powerpoint on mac, when there is pages/numbers/keynote. why pay helluva lot money for those ****** outdated apps from microsoft, when i can have them almost free.

I kind of have to stop you there.

I love MacOS X. But Numbers and Pages are just awful compared to Word and Excell. I will give you Keynote. I've used it to create and give presentations, and I'm much happier with it than Powerpoint.

But Numbers compared to Excel? No contest. Excel gives you a big spreadsheet ready to accept data. Numbers? Not so much. Quite frankly, I can't figure Numbers out. Apple's famed attention to the detail of the user experience yielded a swing-and-a-miss with Numbers.

Pages is a little closer to Word, but when it came to writing a book, I had to use Word for maximum interoperability with my editor(s) and publishers. Pages can import and export Word documents, but the fidelity just isn't good enough.
 

paulsdenton

macrumors 6502
Oct 9, 2010
474
38
Barton, Vermont USA
Too slow

Parallels is a marvelous piece of software and I like the Windows versions of Word and Excel a bit more than the Mac versions, but the virtual machine is awesomely slow. At least it was on my MacBook and old Mac Mini. I haven't used it on my 2011 Mini.

Maybe it runs OK on an iMac with a 3 GHz processor. Or a Mac Pro with 6 cores or something like that.

I used it for several years but finally just got Office for Mac. The tradeoff was worth it.

It was just too damn slow with Parallels.
 

HenryDJP

Suspended
Nov 25, 2012
5,084
843
United States
Yes, throw away all windows CDs and start using OSx on every computer in the office. Doesnt matter how much people will actually know how to use it as effective as they do for windows. The only thing thats important is that it looks great.

Now I see how you came up with that username of yours. :p
 

pubwvj

macrumors 68000
Oct 1, 2004
1,901
208
Mountains of Vermont
A step but if Apple were serious they would offer emulation of Rosetta, PPC, MacClassic so that our older software and data would be available on the newer hardware. We need our data to follow us.
 

mdelvecchio

macrumors 68040
Sep 3, 2010
3,151
1,149
So why Parallels and not VMware Fusion? VMware is the leader in third-party virtualization technology -- we use their server-based stuff for clients on a regular basis. All Parallels does is desktop-based virtualization, if I remember correctly.

PS: I've had clients ask me whether they should do this so that they can use Macs at work. I've told them the downsides of virtualization (it's high-maintenance and more prone to crashing than a non-virtualized environment) and what's always ended the discussion is the question, "Why do you want a Mac at work beyond trying to impress people?"

1) if youre environments are high-maintenance and cross-prone, youre doing it wrong.

2) its well documented on consumer review sites that Windows can run faster natively on a mac than a wintel machine.

3) OS X is far more productive and easier for me to use than Windows, which i reserve for mandatory apps -- such as VS.NET for dev work, etc.
 

HenryDJP

Suspended
Nov 25, 2012
5,084
843
United States
If they really want to encourage usage, they should demo it with Windows 7. Windows 8 is unbelievably awful - and particularly so when used in an emulator. I have found that many of the gestures that are supposed to make Windows 8 suck less are really hard to do with an emulated mouse (particularly the edge detection ones). Microsoft tried to merge the tablet and laptop experience with W8 and wound up giving us the worst of both worlds.


It is quite possible this is a strategic move. Windows 8 does suck. Do you honestly think Apple is trying to help promote Windows use in the business world on their Macs? Windows has become less relevant in the business world as many alternative devices and OS's are well accepted. Promoting Parallels on Windows 8 may help to drive people to use OS X as much as possible, especially when there are a lot of business apps now on OS X than ever before.


I kind of have to stop you there.

I love MacOS X. But Numbers and Pages are just awful compared to Word and Excell. I will give you Keynote. I've used it to create and give presentations, and I'm much happier with it than Powerpoint.

But Numbers compared to Excel? No contest. Excel gives you a big spreadsheet ready to accept data. Numbers? Not so much. Quite frankly, I can't figure Numbers out. Apple's famed attention to the detail of the user experience yielded a swing-and-a-miss with Numbers.

Pages is a little closer to Word, but when it came to writing a book, I had to use Word for maximum interoperability with my editor(s) and publishers. Pages can import and export Word documents, but the fidelity just isn't good enough.

I have to stop U there. You're not wrong about Numbers, but Pages trumps Word in many areas, and Word is more useful than Pages in many areas. There's a lot of tit for tat between the two of them. For example, our office only uses Pages for creating banners, flyers and business forms because Pages has better templates and much better graphics capabilities than Word. To be honest, most businesses aren't using Word the way you do. It's mostly used for basic letter creation which ends up being exported to PDF anyway.
 

swm

macrumors 6502a
May 29, 2013
521
853
But Numbers compared to Excel? No contest. Excel gives you a big spreadsheet ready to accept data.

yes, there are some shortcomings as it comes to large number of rows. don't know, why, probably it's because of the way numbers shows data. you can have multiple tables on one page, sometimes it's more like a calculator embedded into a graphic design application.
if you put 6 sheets with thousands of rows, then it is painfully slow.

however the way numbers uses formulas, does formatting, as it actually works... for me it's easier.

the only feature i miss is to import data (csv) with different field separators. if someone uses the hungarian locale settings, the separator is semicolon.
in excel you can choose it while you import the document.
but i have my handy perl scripts for this purpose.

Numbers is prettier, the fonts look better, the formatting is better, overall it's more pleasing for the eye. for my eye, at least.
but you are right, when it comes to big amount of data, numbers can't perform as fast as excel does. :(

Pages is a little closer to Word, but when it came to writing a book, I had to use Word for maximum interoperability with my editor(s) and publishers. Pages can import and export Word documents, but the fidelity just isn't good enough.

i strongly disagree. With pages you can do text routing, text formatting, whatever you wish. and it does it pretty well. my wife wrote her first book using pages, and she did the complete formatting solely in pages, and it worked out pretty well.

for bigger projects over 300 pages you'd need Indesign or some similar monsters.

in case you just use it as a text editor, w/o formatting or structures, there are a lot other good apps for writing... for example there's textedit :)
way faster than word ever will be.

i'd say pages is way more than word, it's a good mixture of the functionality available in MS word and MS Publisher.

one thing is unclear to me: why is it so hard to import .doc documents... sometimes it takes ages to wait for the file to be imported.
 

nsayer

macrumors 65816
Jan 23, 2003
1,252
777
Silicon Valley
i strongly disagree. With pages you can do text routing, text formatting, whatever you wish. and it does it pretty well. my wife wrote her first book using pages, and she did the complete formatting solely in pages, and it worked out pretty well.

How did she publish?

The self-publishing services for eBooks (kdp and SmashWords) take .doc files, and basically don't work properly with anything else. And the exports from Pages were a mess as well.

The same basically holds more or less true in my experience with CreateSpace.
 

0x0x0x0

macrumors 6502
Can anyone please confirm this has been their experience as well with Parrallels vs. VMWare. I'll be using AutoCAD plus possibly Revit. I imagine other 3D software would have similiar hardware needs. Really would like to hear from others who have tried both as I'll be getting a Haswell rMBP this Fall and would love to be able to skip Boot Camp.

Don't both have demo versions for you to try-before-you-buy, especially given that you have a specific use-case?..
 

donutbagel

macrumors 6502a
Jun 9, 2013
932
1
Just got the Parallels 8 free trial and migrated from VMWare Fusion. I was not happy that it secretly gave Windows access to my home folder and printers and put all of my Windows applications on my dock without asking me! All I wanted was to use one shared folder and share clipboards. It does seem better for games, so far.
 

rvinny

macrumors regular
Feb 2, 2007
113
75
Couple that with many business data analytics apps moving to web format.

There are only a handful of applications that only run in Windows that I have needed to run a virtual machine.

1 - Quickbooks
2 - 3DS Max
3 - Revit/AutoCAD
4 - SAP Business One
5 - Vizio

A good Visio replacement is Gliffy. They are subscription based but its a very good service.

----------

Numbers and Pages are just awful compared to Word and Excell. I will give you Keynote. I've used it to create and give presentations, and I'm much happier with it than Powerpoint.

But Numbers compared to Excel? No contest. Excel gives you a big spreadsheet ready to accept data. Numbers? Not so much. Quite frankly, I can't figure Numbers out. Apple's famed attention to the detail of the user experience yielded a swing-and-a-miss with Numbers.

Pages is a little closer to Word, but when it came to writing a book, I had to use Word for maximum interoperability with my editor(s) and publishers. Pages can import and export Word documents, but the fidelity just isn't good enough.

Couldn't have said it better. Long time Mac user and I just can't get the workflow going in Numbers / Pages. If Bento is any indication and putting iWorks in iCloud is the only change this Fall, I am not hopeful of what is going to happen with their office apps.
 

phrehdd

macrumors 601
Oct 25, 2008
4,335
1,325
So bad in so many ways.....

Win 8 is not a great OS for the workplace. Win 7 and XP are far better choices and especially so when set to "classic" look. The idea is to get to your applications and use them. Laptops might be a bit different in terms of VPN, workflow but it still holds true that the goal is an OS that doesn't get in the way.

Mac in the workplace is rather limited for a myriad of reasons with the two primary ones being limited choices of applications with output files that can be used by Windows users (yes, some have already mentioned the foibles of Pages and Numbers). etc.

Using a virtual provides an entirely new headache for those involved in IT and IS for support and of course, security. Candidly, I much prefer OSX environment over Windows 8 but in the workplace, Win XP and 7 by far are better choices for all the right reasons. There is no reason to buy a Mac, set it up with a virtual when one can buy at a far better price "PC" units and use Windows directly.

The only reason Apple would endorse a Mac with virtual and Win 8 is to show just how crappy Win 8 is and get a foothold in the door with OSX and also a Mac piece of hardware.

At home I use Mac and also have used both Parallels and VMWare Fusion. If I had to choose one or the other for the workplace it would be a toss up. I prefer the look and feel of Parallels but VMWare has business advantages given how it is used also on the server end in terms of support. There are complexities to choosing hardware and software within a business arena that is far different than that of a home user. VMWare awhile back had a Windows virtual set up called ACE. It allowed a centralized control of various facets of that virtual on an end user's desktop. The goal was to control facets of security and it wasn't a bad idea. I have no knowledge if it is still around since I have not kept up with VMWare product lines. ACE was a good idea and imagine if a person took his laptop home, the virtual Windows could be set up to make sure that it would only communicate with the office via network/VPN etc. and not go on the Internet and get in trouble. Also, access to physical ports could be controlled so that people could not copy out data via USB and other ports but perhaps be allowed to do printing only (or not). --- you get the idea.

Think about it this way
Mac computer - expensive
Parallels - an additional cost
Information Security and Network now have not one but two desktops per a person to worry about. Certain facets of logins to a business network would have to include being aware of Mac and Windows login, VPN for both possibly and more. Login scripts if any would have to take both OS into consideration and of course, support for any mishaps with the virtual OS would add a new layer of time, cost and labor.

From a home user, I like Windows in a virtual mode on my Mac. From a business POV, I would avoid it as much as possible unless I wanted ALL my desktops/laptops to be MAC and those needing virtual would be the exception and not the rule.
 

cgsnipinva

macrumors 6502
Jan 29, 2013
494
446
Leesburg, VA
A good Visio replacement is Gliffy. They are subscription based but its a very good service.

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Couldn't have said it better. Long time Mac user and I just can't get the workflow going in Numbers / Pages. If Bento is any indication and putting iWorks in iCloud is the only change this Fall, I am not hopeful of what is going to happen with their office apps.

I would concur. Keynote could do with a moderate upgrade to keep its parity or lead over power point. Pages is close but does need an update in functionality and improved fidelity with Word.

Numbers needs the most work. It needs to increase its maximum column and row capability. It needs to get major enhancements to data analysis functionality - in this are two things are huge - Pivot Tables and Multi-level filters. Google Docs' spreadsheet offering has both in a browser based app - why can't Apple engineer this?

I am fearful that Apple does not quite "get" that software is what makes hardware useful. For now I have Office on Mac with a 365 subscription. Microsoft and Google are not standing still here. Combine this with Apples lack of attention to iLife - and the company risks losing the elements that made the Mac platform so attractive.
 

Giev

macrumors member
Aug 20, 2013
94
7
Paralles vs VMWare vs Native!

Well first post here, but a long time reader.

As someone who run all three on my MacBook I can give you a brief comparison.

I run Parallels on a 2011 Macbook Pro (Mountain Lion) and I also have MS office on both Mac (own license) and Windows 7 (provided by the company). I run and use Parallels for almost everything and in terms of performance and integration, parallels coherence mode wins hand down.

For MS Office, you would need to run excel on Windows if you have serious data to work with. Its so ridiculous that running Excel over Parallels blows away Native Excel@Mac. Some people claim its is becasue Excel on Mac is single threaded vs the Windows version being mult-threaded. I dont tknow if this is still true but still Excel on Parallels out performs the mac version on every aspect.

Word is more or less the same, but again the Windows version just feels better (I am not a fan of MS Word on Mac TBH, had too many bugs, and I liked the Windows version more, might be personal preference though). And yes, I know there are other Native Mac alternatives but when you deal with other people who run MS Office, the compatibility issues are just not worth it.

If you use MS Visio at all, you need MS Office on Parallels. OmniGraffle on Mac is great, and I enjoy it alot, but as long as they don't solve the compatibility issues with Visio files (particularly the icon resizing issues) it feels handicapped, and No I don't have the time to convert every object to PDF to get around this. Visio stencils are also a major plus for Visio (again vs OmniGraffle)

Although I prefer Parallels in general, for anything beyond running Windows Apps on a Mac it has limited functionality. If you plan on runnig multile VMs on your Mac, this is where Fusion wins IMHO as you don't have the VMware networking utilities equivalent on Parallels. Also Parallels doesn't allow the guest OS to have low level hardware access. That is usually OK because you don't need it but one key element that I would really need is enabling the guest OS to run its networking interface in promiscuous mode, i.e. you can't capture network traffic on the guest OS. I know this is something that only network engineers and IT professionals would probably use, but is worth mentioning.

A final note, all the above was for Parallels Desktop vs VMware Fusion. ESX is a Hypervisor and anyone comparing it vs Parallels Desktop doesn't know at least one of the products or virtualization in general. With regards to reliability and maintenance, VMs are by far more stable and easier to manage. You backup a single VM file and you are all set. The VM is portable as well, so you can use it on another host (no need to get around HAL issues with Windows , etc.)
 

swm

macrumors 6502a
May 29, 2013
521
853
How did she publish?

The self-publishing services for eBooks (kdp and SmashWords) take .doc files, and basically don't work properly with anything else. And the exports from Pages were a mess as well.

The same basically holds more or less true in my experience with CreateSpace.

it was a real book, not an eBook. and it was like 3-4 years ago, done with Pages '08, as i reckon.

you're right with the exports. if it's pdf or epub, it is ok. i'll try to avoid exporting in doc format, but sometimes i'm forced to do so.

if i receive something in .doc, edit it in pages, and send it back for further modification in doc exported from pages, they're always complaining...
 

nsayer

macrumors 65816
Jan 23, 2003
1,252
777
Silicon Valley
I am fearful that Apple does not quite "get" that software is what makes hardware useful.

Irony. It's what's for dinner:

rd-techq307-entries-2007-9-10-office-wars-3-how-microsoft-got-its-office-monopoly-files-software-sells-systems.jpg
 

neilhart

macrumors 6502
Oct 11, 2007
289
0
SF Bay Area - Fremont
Why not?

With today's CPUs and OS X there is every reason to run virtual machines and any application needed. From my perspective this is what it is all about. On my rMBP I have VMWare Fusion 5 running an XP Pro VM that is up for weeks on end and used daily. This machine travels everywhere with me and is only rebooted when software upgrades require it. I have never had a lock-up or KP in OS X and rarely experience a problem in XP.

So it is no wonder that Apple is pushing OS X vitalization capability.
 

cgc

macrumors 6502a
May 30, 2003
718
23
Utah
I'd prefer VMWare as well.

Parallels has horrible tech support and they update their software to new versions often enough to make it expensive to stay current. Granted, Parallels is faster than VMWare but I like VMWare's upgrade schedule a lot more.
 

delam

macrumors newbie
Sep 5, 2013
1
0
So why Parallels and not VMware Fusion? VMware is the leader in third-party virtualization technology -- we use their server-based stuff for clients on a regular basis. All Parallels does is desktop-based virtualization, if I remember correctly.

PS: I've had clients ask me whether they should do this so that they can use Macs at work. I've told them the downsides of virtualization (it's high-maintenance and more prone to crashing than a non-virtualized environment) and what's always ended the discussion is the question, "Why do you want a Mac at work beyond trying to impress people?"

We run Parallel's Virtuozzo in one of the largest Govt agencies for server virtualization as well as VMWare. Virtuozzo is much faster but we are phasing it out for VMWare. Our VMWare rep always pointed out the fact that Virtuozzo is based out of Russia :eek:
 
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