Aqua To See Leopard Refresh?

[inkswamp]

I'm not going to stop using OS X but I think I will start to use Windows for the strengths it does have.

Are you a troll? I've just scanned through this thread and saw nothing but negative and generally troll-like comments from you. If not, my apologies, but if you hate OS X so much, why are you on a Mac and why are you here?

Secondly, you griped about the OS X not having a Windows program menu. You're wrong. Go to the system preferences window and click on "appearance" and set the recent items for application to 50. Your recent apps (up to 50) will appear in the Apple menu. That is close to the Windows program menu (in fact, it's slightly better because it will only show the most recent 50 programs used instead of forcing you to slog through tons of apps that never get used or dig down several folders deep.) Likewise, right-clicking on the applications folder in the dock is a very close analog to the Windows menu.

I suspect that, whoever you are, you don't know this because you probably don't use OS X that much as it is. I've noticed that there seem to be a lot of pro-Windows trolls on MacRumors lately and I'm a little tired of the subtle OS X bashing.

You know what's strange? You gripe about the menu bar in OS X but you appear to love the Windows Start menu which is basically the same. Odd, that you praise something on Windows but gripe about the same in OS X.

You should go troll somewhere else.

 

[thewhitehart]

Yes! WAY YES! The Program Files menu is way better than having to open a finder window to open an application/program, and the dock is just intrusive and breaks the whole "smoothness" of the Desktop.

You probably did, but have you tried dragging the Applications folder to the right side of the Dock? You can then hold down on it and it will bring up the contents of the folder, providing a Windows-esque way of navigating through your programs.

 

[MacVault]

Are you a troll? I've just scanned through this thread and saw nothing from you but negative and generally troll-like comments from you. If not, my apologies, but if you hate OS X so much, why are you on a Mac and why are you here?

Secondly, you griped about the OS X not having a Windows program menu. You're wrong. Go to the system preferences window and click on "appearance" and set the recent items for application to 50. That is close to the Windows program menu (in fact, it's slightly better because it will only show the most recent 50 programs used instead of forcing you to slog through tons of apps that never get used or dig down several folders deep.) Likewise, right-clicking on the applications folder in the dock is a very close analog to the Windows menu.

I suspect that, whoever you are, you don't know this because you probably don't use OS X that much as it is. I've noticed that there seem to be a lot of pro-Windows trolls on MacRumors lately and I'm a little tired of the subtle OS X bashing.

You know what's strange? You gripe about the menu bar in OS X but you appear to love the Windows Start menu which is basically the same. Odd, that you love something on Windows but not on OS X.

You should go troll somewhere else.

Ha! I'm not a troll AT ALL! I've had 15 to 20 Macs over the last 15 years. I currently have two iBooks running OS X Tiger. I have 0 PCs. But, I've been network administrator for a credit union over the last 2 years which has forced me to use Windows technologies, such as XP, etc. I'm NOT saying Windows is perfect. And I'm NOT saying OS X is totaly crap. I just see a lot of UI refinements, features, etc. in Windows that I think should have been blown away by OS X a long time ago. But I still see inconsistencies, etc. in OS X that need to be fixed. I AM NOT A TROLL. I AM NOT A TROLL. I AM NOT A TROLL.

I have a genuine heart-felt concern for OS X. Why? Because I love it. And sending "feedback" to Apple seems like talking to a wall. At least here I get someone's feedback. It might not be Steve Jobs' response, but at least it's something

 

[dale.albiston]

at present I'm stuck with windows so go easy on me... (my mac upgrade is taking long than i wished).

menus at the top of the screen?

this may sound daft but does osx have keyboard shortcuts to the menus?

e.g press [alt] then use the cursor keys or highlights. windows has done this for ages I' sort of assume osx did too. if it *does* than wher eis the problem, i used to love the menu locations on my atari (top of screen) and wish windows had an option to do likewise.

as for the whole GUI, i don't *care* what it looks like as long as it doesn't get in the way of actually using the machine.

 

[hulugu]

Yes! WAY YES! The Program Files menu is way better than having to open a finder window to open an application/program, and the dock is just intrusive and breaks the whole "smoothness" of the Desktop.

I wish Apple would take on the enterprise market but I think the OS X UI is one thing that needs to first be fixed in order to work for the enterprise mkt. The current OS X UI does not lend itself well to an enterprise/integrated/feature rich world where UI conventions need to be more consistent, intuitive, etc. This is where Windows XP/Vista excels. Take browsing for networks for example in OS X, or setting up file sharing, printers, etc. The OS X UI for these things is HORRIBLE-designed, inconsistent, etc.

First, the 'Enterprise' market is horribly overrated in my opinion. When I'm at home I don't need tools to deploy network services to a hundred machines, I need my machine to easily connect to my ad hoc network and work so easily and intuitively that my wife can use it. Furthermore, OSX Server is far easier to deal with in this regard and includes many of the tools necessary for Enterprise with an easy UI.
Furthermore, having used Windows I don't find any consistency in it's UI conventions among any variation of the system, so I really don't know what you mean by this. They're different OS's and each is going to do things in their own way, requiring OSX to look like Windows is IMHO the wrong way to go.

Also, IMHO the Dock is a nice way of dealing with your applications and is, for many users, much easier to learn and understand.

Ha! I'm not a troll ... I have a genuine heart-felt concern for OS X. Why? Because I love it. And sending "feedback" to Apple seems like talking to a wall. At least here I get someone's feedback. It might not be Steve Jobs' response, but at least it's something

Yep, not a troll. I disagree with you about what you wrote earlier, but your complaints about the UI are not trolling.

 

[Clive At Five]

You probably did, but have you tried dragging the Applications folder to the right side of the Dock? You can then hold down on it and it will bring up the contents of the folder, providing a Windows-esque way of navigating through your programs.

You are exactly right. (Right clicking works too for those with a MM or other multi-button mouse.) The dock is much more flexible than people give it credit for. I not only have apps I use most often, but the folders containing groups of apps I use. That way I can keep my dock concise yet still have all my programs a click or two away.

-Clive

 

[iMeowbot]

this may sound daft but does osx have keyboard shortcuts to the menus?

Yeah, but not in the same way they work on Windows. There is Command-O to do file->Open, and so on, and so on. There is also a facility in the system preferences to assign custom keystrokes to menu items. There is also an option to turn on full keyboard menu navigation (Ctrl-F2 will do about the same thing as pressing the Alt key in Windows - the arrow keys then work, but it's not the series of letter things that Windows has).

 

[hulugu]

...this may sound daft but does osx have keyboard shortcuts to the menus?

OSX has lots of keyboard shortcuts. Take at look at this.

My personal faves (aside from cntrl-X, V, C, P, W) are cntrl-space for Spotlight, F8, F9, F10, F11 for Expose and cntrl-[ for back on Safari. Also, cntrl-tab to cycle through applications.

...as for the whole GUI, i don't *care* what it looks like as long as it doesn't get in the way of actually using the machine.

That's actually the point of a GUI, to make things easier for you to organize and deal with your data and applications.

 

[Balli]

That looks amazingly sexy on my white iMac!

 

[andr3s]

I don't mind the idea of a new UI, but, honestly -- must we pick a name that isn't a word?

"Luminous"? Fine.
"Illuminate"? OK.
but
"Illuminous" is like "irregardless" -- not a word!

I may be a wet blanket, but this would get under my skin the same way that "Think Different" did.
Poor english != hip.

That said, I'd love a general extension of the dark/translucent look of the dashboards to the whole package.

maybe is iLluminous

 

[Evangelion]

You know what's strange? You gripe about the menu bar in OS X but you appear to love the Windows Start menu which is basically the same. Odd, that you praise something on Windows but gripe about the same in OS X.

Um, they are not even remotely similar. Not in any shape or form. One is a menubar at the top of the screen, the other is a button in the bottom-corner of the screen. I would say that the Start-button is most similar to the Apple-menu in OS X, but even then, the similarities are quite vague.

What are the differences between the two?

- In OS X, the menubar is used to control the apps. In Windows, the menubar is inside each Window. The start-menu is NOT used to control the apps.

- Start-menu is used to launch applications and configure the system. In OS X, you use the dock, Finder and the Apple-menu to achieve the same functionality.

The Menubar and the Start-menu are two totally different things that are meant for completely different tasks.

 

[Evangelion]

In OS X 10, the Arabic numerals for ten are redundant after the Roman numeral ten. (OS ten ten?) The duplicate ten pushes the release numbers down so that the major versions look like dot releases.

Who calls it "OS X 10"? I have never seen anyone do that. Only case is when someone is specifying the version, and in those case, I read it as (for example) "OS ex 10.4", not "OS ten 10.4"

(I've said it II or III times: I don't like mixing Roman numerals with computer technology. The II just seem to clash. I don't see anyone making a LXIV-bit processor.)

"OS X" looks cooler than "OS 10". As to your dislike for Roman numerals... Well, that is your personal issue .

 

[inkswamp]

Ha! I'm not a troll AT ALL! I've had 15 to 20 Macs over the last 15 years.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but some of your comments seem geared to getting a reaction and you sort of contradict yourself.

As far as comparing the Windows UI to OS X, let's look at the long-term perspective (since you're a long-time Mac user.) Think back to the early 90s when the typical user might have 100-500 files on their computer and maybe 5-10 apps they use. Also, they might need 2-3 windows open at a given time and maybe 2-3 apps running simultaneously. Simpler time and simpler interface, and back then, the Mac and Windows interfaces worked fine. But nowadays, users typically have files on their machines that number in the 100s of thousands and may have 50-100 apps that they need access to; they need quick access to all kinds of different places and may have 20 apps running all at the same time.

The old UI concepts don't work for that very well. Apple has struck out pretty boldly looking for some solutions to this. Along the way, they will stumble a little bit or anger users as they shed old UI concepts that no longer make sense.

Let's look at the program list in the Windows Start menu you mentioned. The hierarchical menu approach worked beautifully in the 90s when you had a handful of apps you needed, but nowadays it's becomes unwieldy and nearly useless. Apple abandoned it; Windows didn't. A lot of users were (are) angry about that not because it's a better UI feature, but because that's what they're used to. OS X offers you a few alternatives to that approach that work (IMO) much better now with 100+ apps on a typical machine.

1. You can use the "recent applications" menu. (Similar to Start menu but not as awkward.)

2. You can use the applications-folder-in-dock approach. (Again, similar but not exact.)

3. Use control+shift+A to go directly to the applications folder. (Some say this is awkward, but to me this is quicker and much cleaner than navigating through Windows' overloaded program menus, and if you have the window set to column view, it's very much like the old hierarchical menu system but without being as difficult to navigate, i.e., you can use the keyboard to get through it unlike a menu.)

4. Use control+shift+U to go directly the utilities folder. (Same as above, but I'm mentioning this to make the point that Apple provides a quick keyboard shortcut for getting to both locations for applications.)

5. Hit Apple+spacebar to invoke Spotlight and start typing the application's name; select it when it appears. (This is my personal favorite.)\

6. Place the application icon in the dock, sidebar or window tool bar. (Obvious ones, but needs to be mentioned to be complete.)

All of these approaches are new ways of doing things, built on new UI features. Meanwhile, what does Windows do to access programs? Still basically what Windows 95 did, but prettier: start menu, shortcuts on the desktop (ick... desktop clutter is another problem that can't be managed well nowadays and should be avoided), or tiny little toolbars that don't scale well and steal space from an already-crowded taskbar. None of those work well nowadays, especially for power users.

You may be more comfortable with Windows and its older approach, but it adheres to concepts that are really showing their age. Apple's current UI may be imperfect, but as time goes by, Windows and its Start menu is going to look more and more awkward and outdated. It already does, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[mainstreetmark]

Yes! WAY YES! The Program Files menu is way better than having to open a finder window to open an application/program, and the dock is just intrusive and breaks the whole "smoothness" of the Desktop.

So, stick your Applications folder down in the dock and right-click on it. Or any folder with some aliases of the apps you're really interested in.

 

[Clive At Five]

Windows XP, Vista UIs vs. OS X UI: Food for thought.

I've been in an interesting situation wherein I have not had my mac at my disposal for several months. Instead, I have been using my PC laptop loaded with both XP and Vista RC1.

First I'd like to say as someone who has been using Windows since 3.1.1, take my word that Vista is a gigantic improvement over XP. While I agree that MS's claims of Vista's grandure aren't justified, there's no denying that Vista is a noteworthy upgrade (rather than an 8-month downgrade until SP1 surfaces).

Now about the UIs: I honestly cannot figure out why people are calling Vista's skin ugly! Maybe this is just an effect of using XP for months, but Vista is gorgeous compared to XP, and in some aspects, even compared to OS X... granted, that's when all the windows are closed and I am only looking at the desktop with an opened start menu. Still, that's what people will see in the store and that's what MS is going to use to pacify Windows Lemmings. I say that because to a lot of people, OS X is something they saw once that looked cool but didn't seem like a relevant option given how they used computers (of course they don't know that they're usually wrong). Now there will be a version of Windows that looks and feels like that other cool thing... which is exactly what they want. Average users aren't analytic about their computer purchases like we are. We know Macs are better because we've studied the options... but MS knows most people won't study. And to those people, Windows Vista is going to be a very alluring option... and will keep them from using those brain cells.

Okay, so that's a little off-topic. Oh well. You can chew on it for a while.

Back on-topic: I agree that Aqua is beginning to look a little dated... not nearly as much as XP's "Playskool" colors, but dated, nonetheless. Given Vista's pending launch, it is my opinion that Apple should strive to take the interface to the next level... while remaining in familiar ball-park. If Apple can "see" MS's Aero and "raise" them Aqua 2.0/"Illuminous" and keep people looking at OS X and saying, "hey, what's that cool other thing?" the hard-to-win average users will begin to trickle over.

As for black, leave that to Vista. It looks nice, but Apple should set itself aside from it as to avoid Windows/OS X confusion among the computer illiterate. I think a UI should incorporate light, bright (yet easy to look at) features. It would be great to incorporate CoreAnimation into the UI for some slick, non-distracting movements. The stoplight bubbles are old and the small orbs are hard to click. The scroll bar is decent, but the slider jumps out too much. I would dig flatter, smoother "glass" pieces... something simple enough to ignore, but with a texture so gorgeous you feel as though you could touch it. Maybe these are all impossible to accomplish, but it is my wish, nonetheless.

Maybe I should try making a Shapeshifter skin

Wow, this is a long-ass post.

-Clive

 

[SiliconAddict]

So, stick your Applications folder down in the dock and right-click on it. Or any folder with some aliases of the apps you're really interested in.

So much for out of the box ease of use. The minute you have to do this for your average user ease of use goes out the window...so to speak.

Like it or not MS has features that apple should have. The “add or remove programs” dialog box that really does remove all the entries that X, Y, or Z program installed. Unlike OS X where even if you delete the program it still leaves crap behind scattered through your system library or your profile's library.
Or the system rollback feature that can be a godsend in Windows when a patch goes bad, which we all know never happens in OS X.

Apple needs to get off their high horse and pick up some of the more user friendly, and useful features that Windows has. Yah I said it. User friendly. Somewhere out there I think I just killed a zealot.
Apple bit the bullet with fast user switching. Now they need a way of easily listing all your apps. Or group your apps into categories or something. And please don't tell me Spotlight is the "killer app" for such a feature. Many apps's names don't have a thing to do with their function. As an example off the top of my head Onyx. For the first few weeks to months I had to go digging through my app folder to figure out what was the name of that app that did sys maintenance. Thankfully you can add comments into the file to make it show up when you type maintenance but its more work then it should be.
Don’t get me wrong. I think OS X is great but there are some key features, or lack thereof, that screams “left in the 90’s.”

 

[Peace]

So much for out of the box ease of use. The minute you have to do this for your average user ease of use goes out the window...so to speak.

Like it or not MS has features that apple should have. The “add or remove programs” dialog box that really does remove all the entries that X, Y, or Z program installed. Unlike OS X where even if you delete the program it still leaves crap behind scattered through your system library or your profile's library.
Or the system rollback feature that can be a godsend in Windows when a patch goes bad, which we all know never happens in OS X.

Apple needs to get off their high horse and pick up some of the more user friendly, and useful features that Windows has. Yah I said it. User friendly. Somewhere out there I think I just killed a zealot.
Apple bit the bullet with fast user switching. Now they need a way of easily listing all your apps. Or group your apps into categories or something. And please don't tell me Spotlight is the "killer app" for such a feature. Many apps's names don't have a thing to do with their function. As an example off the top of my head Onyx. For the first few weeks to months I had to go digging through my app folder to figure out what was the name of that app that did sys maintenance. Thankfully you can add comments into the file to make it show up when you type maintenance but its more work then it should be.
Don’t get me wrong. I think OS X is great but there are some key features, or lack thereof, that screams “left in the 90’s.”

Go to add/remove programs in XP and remove a program.Reboot then look at your registry and see how much junk that "add/remove programs" left behind..

Apple may not have an add/remove function but MS Windows registry is VERY screwed up.

I'd rather do a spotlight search for anything left behind and remove it than go into the Windows registry ANY day.

 

[SiliconAddict]

First I'd like to say as someone who has been using Windows since 3.1.1, take my word that Vista is a gigantic improvement over XP. While I agree that MS's claims of Vista's grandure aren't justified, there's no denying that Vista is a noteworthy upgrade (rather than an 8-month downgrade until SP1 surfaces).

Hey Clive. What do you think of the networking in Vista? My head blew up when I started digging into it and I do IT as a profession. While Vista may very well be Microsoft's OS X when it comes to upgrading; the UI makes me wish each copy shipped with Dramamine. Egh....is my monitor rocking back and forth or is that just me?

Go to add/remove programs in XP and remove a program.Reboot then look at your registry and see how much junk that "add/remove programs" left behind..

Apple may not have an add/remove function but MS Windows registry is VERY screwed up.

I'd rather do a spotlight search for anything left behind and remove it than go into the Windows registry ANY day.

It depends on the application and the programmer. When you remove a program that was built under a recient version of MSI it WILL remove just about everything if not everything. Its all dependent on how well the programmer did his or her job. I didn't say MS has a great setup but its a heck of a lot more complete then Apple's drop it into the garbage solution.

PS- Spotlight doesn't index your library without a 3rd party hacking tool.

 

[SiliconAddict]

[deleted]

 

[stcanard]

Go to add/remove programs in XP and remove a program.Reboot then look at your registry and see how much junk that "add/remove programs" left behind..

Worse than that, I find the vast majority of programs leave directories and files as well.

That "Add/Remove" programs looks nice, but is actually less effective than the OSX meme of dragging the App to the trash.

 

[afornander]

i thing we should just wait and see what apple does... they have done a good job so far...
all i can say is, thay have to stick with one look, and stop throwing us cirvballs. theirs the mail app, itunes 7, metal, Garageband, ext... just pick one, or give us the option to set any one of them as system defalt.

also, an apple made GUI skin designer would be nice, thats the one thing i really liked in windows 95-2k, and now microsoft is really geting back into it by allowing people to set, glass color, transparency %, ext...

come on throw us a bone apple!

 

[Clive At Five]

Hey Clive. What do you think of the networking in Vista? My head blew up when I started digging into it and I do IT as a profession. While Vista may very well be Microsoft's OS X when it comes to upgrading; the UI makes me wish each copy shipped with Dramamine. Egh....is my monitor rocking back and forth or is that just me?

lol.

I have (so far) only used Vista on my own laptop. I've connected to wireless networks, which was simple enough, but nothing more complex than that. I guess I will find out once I set up a home network...

...or maybe I won't have to if I convince my fiancee to swtich to the Mac for good. I'll have to show her parallelis (sp?). That'll give her something to chew on.

-Clive

 

[Clive At Five]

...the mail app, itunes 7, metal, Garageband, ext...

Damn! Yes! I forgot about the GarageBand UI!!! Bring on the wood panels!!! Make my OS look like a 1986 Station Wagon!!!

Hells yeah!

-Clive

(For clarification, that was all sarcasm.)

 

[MrFirework]

[deleted]

oops!

 

[hulugu]

...Like it or not MS has features that apple should have. The “add or remove programs” dialog box that really does remove all the entries that X, Y, or Z program installed. Unlike OS X where even if you delete the program it still leaves crap behind scattered through your system library or your profile's library.... Now they need a way of easily listing all your apps. Or group your apps into categories or something.

Are you serious? First, the Windows Add/Remove Programs system doesn't work for many programs, it either won't really remove the program or leaves so much garbage in the registry that Windows can become unstable. That's user friendly? For the most part the drag-n-drop interface on OSX works and that's much easier that using Add/Remove even if the success rate for each was equal.

Second, Applications exist in the Applications folder, but you can put stuff into other folders inside of this main folder. For example, where's the Aiport Administration application? It's under applications/utilities. And you can bury all the MS Office stuff into one folder and all the Adobe stuff into another folder. Accept that OSX is different from Windows, but the conventions make sense and are useful, just not if you want it to be *exactly* like Windows.