Blu-ray Macs: Early 2007?

[Multimedia]

What Is A Mediacenter? How Can We Learn To Setup One For Clients?

As someone who produces video for a living for customers (weddings), I can tell you the requests for HD delivery have been few at best. $500 and $900 players and $850 PC burners are just out of the realm of affordability at this point. It is going to take 2 more years before an affordable, and viable customer solution is available for DISC based media. However, the easiest, cheapest and fastest way to deliver HD content to customers is via a Mediacenter which connects directly to the TV. I have had quite a few customers pay the extra few hundred for me to setup one of these units for them, and it works great.

Like most of you, I am holding out for a dual format burner before I start producing HD on DVDs.

I have no idea what you are writing about. When I google "Mediacenter" it comes up with Windows Media Center. Would you mind please providing a link to what YOU MEAN? Thanks.

 

[AppliedVisual]

Yes, it's the "brain" the chip that does the work.
There is such as chip, but as you can imagine, neither side would want it to be "approved" for use.

BTW, Toshiba's second gen HD DVD players has been delayed (joining Sony) due to the lack of blue lasers.

Yep, and Ricoh has developed a lens system that allows for the blue diode lasers to read every current disc format out there simply by re-alignment and focust of the primary lens. Combine that with chipsets like the new one from Broadcom that include support for CD/DVD/HD-DVD/BD all on a single chip, low-cost universal players are not too far off. The only thing holding them up is typical industry politics and that supposed BluRay license clause that says that BluRay licensed devices can't support competitors' formats (DVD Audio, HD-DVD), but Sony won't confirm or deny such a license restriction and their licens agreement is protected by NDA. So only BluRay license partners know for sure and they're not allowed to say. I do know that LG/Marantz, Pioneer and Samsung all announced universal players over the last year or so and all three have later come back to say that it won't happen. Even LG, who is intertwined with Philips -- another developer of a universal player chipset, has come back to say that they will not pursue a universal player at this time... Weird.

I think the licensing restriction rumor is bogus though. I don't know if it's entirely legal for them to make such restrictions in many markets (including the USA with antitrust laws). Not only that, but component makers must license BluRay technology rights in order to create these universal capable devices... And wouldn't creating such a device as a universal HD-DVD + BluRay capable chip be in violation of such a restriction?

 

[lord_flash]

So, what gives? I'm in the UK where neither are really selling at all, since the only real HDDVD drive has been put back to later this month and the PS3 is delayed until March, but I'm still surprised that there is so much debate over which is best.

I mean in the Betamax v VHS days there were two debates - maximum storage (in minutes, VHS won hands down) and highest quality (Betamax led the way). As it turned out, people didn't care what looked best if the end of a movie didn't fit on the tape, so VHS won.

For Blu-ray and HD DVD, however, when the compression formats are the same, the maximum space = the maximum duration. In other words, why anyone should choose to be in the HD DVD camp is beyond me.

With crappier 1080i transfers it probably doesn't matter, but 1080p will be able to make use of every bit of that extra 20GB, as anyone who has ever mastered a DVD and had to make uncomfortable bit-rate/duration trade offs will know.

Remember that only a few HD TVs really show off the potential of HD - 1080p is the future, and space will be vital. As screens get better, poor transfers crammed into too little space become more obvious.

I'd like to have seen more Blu-ray sooner, and with Apple as a know leader in the video production field it is a shame that they've not been standard - subsidised even - in MacPros since they appeared. It'd be nice for some companies to take the lead and kill HD DVD before it's got started. Sony have done their bit with the PS3. Come on Apple...

 

[KipCoon]

Yep, and Ricoh has developed a lens system that allows for the blue diode lasers to read every current disc format out there simply by re-alignment and focust of the primary lens. Combine that with chipsets like the new one from Broadcom that include support for CD/DVD/HD-DVD/BD all on a single chip, low-cost universal players are not too far off. The only thing holding them up is typical industry politics and that supposed BluRay license clause that says that BluRay licensed devices can't support competitors' formats (DVD Audio, HD-DVD), but Sony won't confirm or deny such a license restriction and their licens agreement is protected by NDA. So only BluRay license partners know for sure and they're not allowed to say. I do know that LG/Marantz, Pioneer and Samsung all announced universal players over the last year or so and all three have later come back to say that it won't happen. Even LG, who is intertwined with Philips -- another developer of a universal player chipset, has come back to say that they will not pursue a universal player at this time... Weird.

I think the licensing restriction rumor is bogus though. I don't know if it's entirely legal for them to make such restrictions in many markets (including the USA with antitrust laws). Not only that, but component makers must license BluRay technology rights in order to create these universal capable devices... And wouldn't creating such a device as a universal HD-DVD + BluRay capable chip be in violation of such a restriction?

Not to mention they are just hanging themselves by not allowing a multi format player out anyways. I don't want 2-3 DVD players on my shelf to play the various formats out there. I have about 330+ DVD's right now that I refuse to repurchase in a HD or Blu-Ray

 

[bloodycape]

Interesting concept. I am pretty sure a 90 minute Betamax held the same length video as a 90 minute VHS . Perhaps you are thinking of the slow record / play mode on VHS decks?

However I think you will find you are totally incorrect about Blu-Ray v HD DVD.

Whatever, I hope there is a dual format support player and burner on the horizon.

I think it was Nec or LG who had plans for that about a month ago but it was nixed because of some issues the HD and Blue-ray manufactures had with the idea or something.

 

[Ryan5505]

Thoughts

These are just thoughts:
I would rather see a Blu-Ray drive in the macs, BUT; Steve is a big player with Disney, and Disney is on the side of HD-DVD. But on other hand, BLU disk hold more storage, and seem as if this would be great for PRO users.

As for the cost of a mac going up, well yes if its a build to order option. But sony or apple could take a loss on the technology to get it out the door and into peoples hands first. Each PS3 is rumored to be around 800 dollars to produce, sony is taking a large loss to get the bluetooth, blueray, wifi, 20-60GB system into peoples hands, the added blu-ray player is going to pay off I believe for large game files. Sony using only top technology is a good thing I believe, a premuim price, but apple also charges a premium price. If Apple and Sony want, they can loose on the drive to get it into peoples homes.

Sony also owns many movie companies, which could keep bluray above others.

The day of the PS3 release, I walked into a best buy at 12:30 in the afternoon and 5 PS3 showed up randomly after the riots. I purchased one, and watched the talidega nights blu-ray movie which was included. You can tell the difference in the quality.

Box sets of DVDs could now go down to only having ONE disc. That would be nice to have then 10 DVDs for maybe a TV show.

 

[gctwnl]

My €0.02

January: introduction of iTV
- iTV
- iTV HD (with Bluray)

Apple wants to be in HD very much (remember "year of HD?") and they want to be in the living room. I think a BTO option or two versions will fit the Apple strategy nicely.

G

 

[bobber205]

Is there anyway we can say "screw this" and have somebody make a drive that reads both Blue-Ray and HD-DVD. Will Sony ever get desperate enough to allow something like that?

 

[bigandy]

Is there anyway we can say "screw this" and have somebody make a drive that reads both Blue-Ray and HD-DVD. Will Sony ever get desperate enough to allow something like that?

we've had that conversation in this thread already, i'm sure...

 

[charkshark]

Apple wants to be in HD very much (remember "year of HD?") and they want to be in the living room. I think a BTO option or two versions will fit the Apple strategy nicely.

G

Apple for sure wants to be in the cutting edge of HD. I believe they will introduce Bu-Ray as an OPTION on most macs, in Q1 2007, likely a MSWF announcement.

 

[princealfie]

Apple for sure wants to be in the cutting edge of HD. I believe they will introduce Bu-Ray as an OPTION on most macs, in Q1 2007, likely a MSWF announcement.

I dunno , Bluray looks like one dead format.

 

[GregA]

I dunno , Bluray looks like one dead format.

You reckon?

I haven't seen much indication of bluray being any more or less dead than HD-DVD. It's pretty early in the game and there are some deep pockets playing.

 

[sixstorm]

Blu-Ray is more expensive, does not look as good as a HD-DVD movie and does have better storage ATM, but that doesn't mean that someone could make a higher capacity HD-DVD in the future. And don't give me the "Well, you don't own both players . . . You don't know what you're talking about . . ." crap. It completely blows my mind how people want to invest in something like Blu-Ray when it's so darn expensive. Normal people in the real world don't have that kind of money to spend on a movie player and storage device.

 

[w00master]

Screw either of the formats

Personally, I'm not a fan of either one. It's the fault of these two sides that we're in this mess (Bluray vs. HD DVD). Personally, I think to be REALLY cutting edge is to completely avoid either format and go directly to digital downloading. Apple already has "some" of the infrastructure and (I believe) is building on that. Why care about Bluray or HD DVD when, iTunes will (eventually) have downloadable HD movies. Heck, the XBox 360 already offers this!

As for physical storage, I can understand going for one of these formats, but for movies/content distribution. Screw both of those formats. Go digital distribution all the way!

w00master

 

[mcarnes]

Haha! Good one. I guess it takes an idiot to see that Blu-Ray is more expensive, does not look as good as a HD-DVD movie and does have better storage ATM, but that doesn't mean that someone could make a higher capacity HD-DVD in the future. And don't give me the "Well, you don't own both players . . . You don't know what you're talking about . . ." crap. It completely blows my mind how people want to invest in something like Blu-Ray when it's so darn expensive. Normal people in the real world don't have that kind of money to spend on a movie player and storage device.

You really don't have a clue at all.

 

[TMay]

Blu-ray will be first in Mac Pro's

So, a kid gets this idea to shoot an indie film. See that the Panasonic AV-HVX200P can shoot 1080P resolution at 24 fps. Drops $5K on the camera and drops another $2k on a couple of 8GB P2 memory. Then another $2k on a Firestore.

Now he can shoot, hot swap the P2 and download to the Firestore, but maybe not quite continuously, at about 1 GB per minute.

Then, he takes the Firestore, ingests it into his 2007 Mac Pro 8 core with its BTO Pioneer BDR-102A Blu-ray burner, and using Final Cut Pro and DVD Studio and his 30 inch Cinema display, edits and burns his "film" to Blu-ray for initial distribution.

Bottom line. Content producers won't lose any sleep over another $1k for a 50 GB Blu-ray burner, and Apple looks like a winner yet again.

Whether Apple will deliver a BTO Blu-ray player option is the real question. I think that they will, and I don't think there will be an HD-DVD option.

 

[sixstorm]

You really don't have a clue at all.

And how is that? Great of you to say something like that and not back it up. Not trying to be rude but geez, that's all there is to it. BLU RAY IS EXPENSIVE!!!!!!

 

[w00master]

Survey points to Blu-ray negativity, attributed to Sony's "heavy handed" approach

http://tinyurl.com/upxlc

Personally, (as stated previously), I'm against BOTH formats, but this article caught my eye.

 

[AppliedVisual]

And how is that? Great of you to say something like that and not back it up. Not trying to be rude but geez, that's all there is to it. BLU RAY IS EXPENSIVE!!!!!!

Yes, BluRay is expensive... So is HD-DVD.... So was DVD when it first arrived on the market. The first 4 DVD players were all over $1K on introduction, industry "experts" were predicting the format was DOA... FOX studios thought DVD was a joke and they initially backed DVHS.

But now what are you comparing BluRay to when you say it's expensive? If you're comparing to HD-DVD, then you're wrong. Current BluRay players aren't much more expensive than the available HD-DVD players. The (fixed) Samsung now has an MSRP of $849, the Philips releases this month at $799. Yes, that's more than the Toshiba HDA1 HD-DVD player (and I own one of those, they suck), which can now be had for about $400. The RCA branded unit is $369 at my local Sam's Club, but it's not the same player... It's actually WORSE! Yes, folks, RCA and Toshiba found a way to screw up that player even more.

Anyway, player costs aside, let's consider the advantages that BluRay now has over HD-DVD...

On average, BD discs are $8 cheaper when comparing MSRP. Hmmmm....

HD-DVD guys had a stroke of obvious common-sense when they decided to put a DVD release on one side of a disc and the HD version on the flip side. Too bad they haven't realized sales are poor for those discs because they're charging double - dumbasses.

With the release of Playstation3, Sony more than quadrupled their HD disc player marketshare overnight and now the number of installed Blu-Ray players is expected to exceed the number of HD-DVD players by a factor of nearly 5 to 1 by the end of they year - or when all PS3 pre-orders are filled.

LG will be releasing their second (a budget model, only 1080i) BluRay player this spring (March/April), with a target MSRP under $450. Sony has stated at many of their trade show events and BluRay demonstrations that they predict BluRay player prices to fall a lot faster than DVD player prices did, citing players under $200 by the end of '08 and should have models of their own in the $300's on the market by the end of '07. ...Which that will already be so in a few months once PS3 is readily available and the first price adjustment hits this summer or so.

Personally, I'm not a Sony fanboy and I don't care for a lot of what they do or how Sony or Toshiba has handled this whole "format war". But for Toshiba and the HD-DVD camp to actually overcome Sony and BluRay at this point, it will be nearly impossible unless they can suddenly start offering a better player than their current HDA1 model at < $300. Not going to happen. They're about to start shipping the A2 with an MSRP fo $499 again and the XA2 player is $999 and delayed until next year. They're going the wrong way...

 

[AppliedVisual]

As for physical storage, I can understand going for one of these formats, but for movies/content distribution. Screw both of those formats. Go digital distribution all the way!

w00master

The problem with digital distribution is connectivity. Even though broadband has done a great job in propegating throughout many parts of the world, the majority of people on the net still don't have broadband, or if they do, it's not a connection fast enough to make it convenient to stream or download HD content. ...That day is rapidly approaching, but we're still a couple years off. Apple beginning to offer near-DVD quality video on iTunes is a huge milestone in this regard and it shows that their own infrastructure is there and should continue to improve. HD will flow naturally as new products continue to arrive on the market and market interest expands. Your average consumer (according to studies done recently by Forbes and Consumer Reports regarding downloadable media) is intrigued, but still prefers physical media. And it doesn't help that they know the downloads won't be cheaper... Right now, they're maybe saving $1 by downloading from iTunes and they're getting an inferior product vs. a DVD. And at this point in time, why would Joe Consumer want to buy a movie like Cars for $12.99 from iTunes, when he can buy it at the local store along with his groceries for $14.99, still rip it to his iPod and have the disc in his family DVD library. Hmmm.... Hopefully devices like iTV will change some of this. Personally, I won't buy an iTV until I can acquire media from iTunes in equal or better quality vs. BluRay or HD-DVD for the same price or less. ...And even then, they had better offer something of value there. Because I can walk a couple blocks to rent a movie for $1 per night. Or I can have a continuously revolving selection of movies from Blockbuster or Netflix (even in HD-DVD or BD) for $15/month.

 

[sixstorm]

Yes, BluRay is expensive... So is HD-DVD.... So was DVD when it first arrived on the market. The first 4 DVD players were all over $1K on introduction, industry "experts" were predicting the format was DOA... FOX studios thought DVD was a joke and they initially backed DVHS.

But now what are you comparing BluRay to when you say it's expensive? If you're comparing to HD-DVD, then you're wrong. Current BluRay players aren't much more expensive than the available HD-DVD players. The (fixed) Samsung now has an MSRP of $849, the Philips releases this month at $799. Yes, that's more than the Toshiba HDA1 HD-DVD player (and I own one of those, they suck), which can now be had for about $400. The RCA branded unit is $369 at my local Sam's Club, but it's not the same player... It's actually WORSE! Yes, folks, RCA and Toshiba found a way to screw up that player even more.

I personally don't own a Toshiba Player but do have roommates that own the XBOX 360 add-on and it doesn't suck. Even other people I know online own the HDA1 and they love it.

Anyway, player costs aside, let's consider the advantages that BluRay now has over HD-DVD...

On average, BD discs are $8 cheaper when comparing MSRP. Hmmmm....

Woah! Where are you shopping? Walmart has HD-DVDs ranging from $19.99-$29.99, whereas Blu-Ray discs are all $29.99-$39.99. Look at Amazon.com, EBGames, Tower Records, anywhere. Blu-Ray discs are more expensive than HD-DVD discs.

HD-DVD guys had a stroke of obvious common-sense when they decided to put a DVD release on one side of a disc and the HD version on the flip side. Too bad they haven't realized sales are poor for those discs because they're charging double - dumbasses.

I really don't know what to think about the combo sets, but it seems like a good deal if you wanted to upgrade later. I don't see the problem with that I don't guess.

With the release of Playstation3, Sony more than quadrupled their HD disc player marketshare overnight and now the number of installed Blu-Ray players is expected to exceed the number of HD-DVD players by a factor of nearly 5 to 1 by the end of they year - or when all PS3 pre-orders are filled.

Now if you wanna talk about a crappy BR player, the P$3 is one. I've heard nothing good about BR playback on the P$3 at all, only bad stuff. Sony has done a terrible job with the PS3 IMO and will be struggling to get out consoles for the next year. I really don't know why anyone would wanna buy that POS anyways . . . horrible console right now.

LG will be releasing their second (a budget model, only 1080i) BluRay player this spring (March/April), with a target MSRP under $450. Sony has stated at many of their trade show events and BluRay demonstrations that they predict BluRay player prices to fall a lot faster than DVD player prices did, citing players under $200 by the end of '08 and should have models of their own in the $300's on the market by the end of '07. ...Which that will already be so in a few months once PS3 is readily available and the first price adjustment hits this summer or so.

Sony? Going down in price? Wow, that's a nice dream. I know that Sony doesn't solely own BR technology, but I don't see them lowering prices for a long time. Also, we all know Sony's winning streak with their own formats . . .

Personally, I'm not a Sony fanboy and I don't care for a lot of what they do or how Sony or Toshiba has handled this whole "format war". But for Toshiba and the HD-DVD camp to actually overcome Sony and BluRay at this point, it will be nearly impossible unless they can suddenly start offering a better player than their current HDA1 model at < $300. Not going to happen. They're about to start shipping the A2 with an MSRP fo $499 again and the XA2 player is $999 and delayed until next year. They're going the wrong way...

HDTV prices have fallen quite a bit and people are going to start looking for HD content, starting with cable TV and movies. I think that unless Sony (and others) dramatically drop the price of the BR players and discs, they will overcome HD-DVD. It is ALL going to come down to the prices. Yes, it could come down to the movie exclusives but price is a bigger factor.

I don't mean to sound hateful, but there's no use of calling someone "uninformed". Hell, as far as I know, you are just as informed as me.

 

[mcarnes]

Blu-Ray holds nearly twice as much as HD-DVD (50GB vs. 30GB). That is a no brainer. The street price of movies is about the same. They have been slow to release *good* movies on Blu-Ray because of difficulties with the VCI encoder and the fact that they could only use single layer (25GB) discs. But that all changed last month and the latest movies have both. HD-DVD is already maxed out, but Blu-Ray really just got started last month (with VCI and 50GB).

Give it a few months. I think blu-ray will easily pull ahead. I mean, we're talking about another 20GB per disc for extra features, better quality, etc. etc. HD-DVD almost feels like old technology compared to blu-ray.

 

[sixstorm]

Blu-Ray holds nearly twice as much as HD-DVD (50GB vs. 30GB). That is a no brainer. The street price of movies is about the same. They have been slow to release *good* movies on Blu-Ray because of difficulties with the VCI encoder and the fact that they could only use single layer (25GB) discs. But that all changed last month and the latest movies have both. HD-DVD is already maxed out, but Blu-Ray really just got started last month (with VCI and 50GB).

Give it a few months. I think blu-ray will easily pull ahead. I mean, we're talking about another 20GB per disc for extra features, better quality, etc. etc. HD-DVD almost feels like old technology compared to blu-ray.

Like I've said before, BR is good for storage (I agree with you on the space on their discs). I wouldn't say that HD-DVD is maxed out, you never know if they could come out with a 50GB disc. Anyways, why would you need that much space for a 1080p movie plus a few special features? Most people don't even care about the extra stuff unless it's a gag reel or sometimes deleted scenes. I honestly think extra features on some HD-DVDs are pointless (I'd never use them) like coloring your car in Fast and Furious Tokyo Drift. WTF? I just wanna watch the dang movie.

I would like to see more digital downloads and distribution going on as well. Some people I work with at Blockbuster don't like the fact of just downloading something, they want a physical copy in their hands. I tell them all the time that digital downloading is coming and physical discs prolly have the chance of being phased out. I'm sure within the next 5-10 years everyone will have some sort of a computer controlling their TV and movies, all coming from a particular source (via Internet, via iTunes, via Cable Provider).

 

[mcarnes]

Anyways, why would you need that much space for a 1080p movie plus a few special features? Most people don't even care about the extra stuff unless it's a gag reel or sometimes deleted scenes.

I remember when the first iPod came out I wondered who the hell needs a whopping 5GB for an MP3 player...

If you scale up a current DVD to HD, you need about 50GB to do it, and thats a current DVD which really isn't that great to begin with.

640x480 = 307200 pixels
1920x1080 = 2073600 pixels

2073600 / 307200 = 6.75
If a current DVD is about 8GB, then 8 x 6.75 = 54GB

I know codecs are better now and so on, but my point is that more space is always a good thing, and you cannot forsee now how that will be useful later.

And a 50GB HD-DVD disc does not exist. Maybe in theory, but not right now.

 

[sixstorm]

I remember when the first iPod came out I wondered who the hell needs a whopping 5GB for an MP3 player...

If you scale up a current DVD to HD, you need about 50GB to do it, and thats a current DVD which really isn't that great to begin with.

640x480 = 307200 pixels
1920x1080 = 2073600 pixels

2073600 / 307200 = 6.75
If a current DVD is about 8GB, then 8 x 6.75 = 54GB

I know codecs are better now and so on, but my point is that more space is always a good thing, and you cannot forsee now how that will be useful later.

And a 50GB HD-DVD disc does not exist. Maybe in theory, but not right now.

If they can fit a 1080p movie with loads of extras on a 30GB HD-DVD, then the job is done. And you never know, there could be a 50 GB HD-DVD in the near future.

I don't think that BR will go away now or the next year or so, but with sales and costs, BR *looks* to be heading downhill.