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Technerd108

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Oct 24, 2021
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It looks like AI is coming with Win11 24H2...
Pretty sure it is already in 23h2 with co-pilot preview. Some laptops already have a dedicated copilot button and are available now.

Like it or not AI is already a part of iOS, Android, Windows and probably MacOS too. Have no idea about Linux but I bet it is safe for now.

However, what is it about AI in an OS is bad?? Or are you just saying it is there??
 

chmania

macrumors regular
Dec 2, 2023
214
86
Pretty sure it is already in 23h2 with co-pilot preview. Some laptops already have a dedicated copilot button and are available now.

Like it or not AI is already a part of iOS, Android, Windows and probably MacOS too. Have no idea about Linux but I bet it is safe for now.

However, what is it about AI in an OS is bad?? Or are you just saying it is there??
I an not against that at all. My wife uses the Bing AI in MS Edge and loves it. :)
 
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Technerd108

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Oct 24, 2021
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I an not against that at all. My wife uses the Bing AI in MS Edge and loves it. :)
I have an "AI" laptop and the features of AI are rather limited but include some photo editing like Android Pixel and Samsung phones. The copilot feature is nice for quick searches and summarization's. Much beyond that I don't see much it does. I am sure in the OS automating and AI could make the OS run smoother. I don't think too much AI is in Windows or MacOS yet but I know in Android it is used in the OS like Pixel. So I am sure AI will make it's way into our operating systems at some point. I am a little weary of this just because it adds more bloat and harder to audit the OS code base when AI is hard to decipher. I would like it if there was a sand box or some separation of the AI from the OS but I have no idea how they will implement it.

Like any new tech I think most of us are a little weary of AI. I doubt it will ever reach true sentience but it might erroneously assume it is conscious before it actually is and that might be more dangerous than anything. I also feel like there is no way a lot of people's bias is not going to be in the AI. Also humans are an apex predator. We can act all religious and nice but the truth is we are a predator. We are going to give the AI our predatory instinct without realizing it and all of our bias. If AI ever gains enough power coupled with our predatory nature it would most likely be a threat to humanity. But it could also just as likely be a miracle if used for good and most bias is rooted out. If we look for bias and predatory idealism then we can modify it. However, if militaries weaponize AI then I think it is safe to assume given enough time and computing power that it could be a very bad thing for humanity as we know it.

Let's hope we use it for good!!
 

za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,441
1,896
I think there's a lot of potential in AI, but I'm not sure I trust Apple - or any of the other software development houses of 'repute' - to deliver on it. At least not all that well.

In the search context, it will give you the results it knows about, right or wrong, and an example of why that's not a good thing is the several cases where courts have been presented with legal arguments based on totally erroneous prior judgements, in cases which didn't even exist.

Yes, that's a lawyer problem and they are being lazy and lack competence, but where did these totally false results come from, how did they get in there, and how does the AI-of-the-future protect against them? At least when you Google something, you get a list of hits, and can parse them, and even verify they're genuine. If AI can give you a detailed result that is fabricated out of thin air, the risk is that you'll believe it because it's a trusted source.

I think AI in the context of specialist software functions in an app environment make much more sense. Dealing with something like the burring or pixelation of a background, the sharpening of an image containing faces, or the linking of images containing the same faces - that's time saving, can be very accurate, and could make life much easier. Assembling and ordering clips in a video timeline, or rendering and inserting subtitles, or managing libraries of files and documents... all good, possibly.

Right now though, it sounds like 'AI' is a trumpet being blown very loudly by a lot of people, but nobody has yet told us what the tune is going to be.
 
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Technerd108

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Oct 24, 2021
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I've been down this road a few times...

Basically, if you're all in, Apple-land is great. Take one brick out and the benefits drop significantly to where you might as well go non-Apple across the board.
Exactly! Well said! Wish I was this concise!
 
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chmania

macrumors regular
Dec 2, 2023
214
86
Installed Win11 without much hassle in my 2018 15"Intel MBP with Bootcamp yesterday. Win11 is using much less power to run stuff. The screen brightness has to be brought down to 20%, for there was too much light. In macOS it was around 65-70%! It is also using much less CPU, memory etc with the same type apps open, MS Edge with same amount of tabs, file explorer, Skype and a few other apps. It appears that Win11 had learnt how put apps to sleep when not in front, resting the CPU. Task manager doesn't take much power either, not like the equivalent in macOS. Win11 has even learnt to slow the machine. In macOS Sonoma, it was using >12GB memory with the same type of apps. How come?

Screenshot 2024-04-26 215236.png


After some time: I moved back to macOS again. Before I went to Win11, the MBP was on Optimised battery charging mode, plugged in and had 80% according to Apple, but 77% according to coconutbattery app. All the time I was with Win11, the battery level was at 77% plugged in. Interestingly still on the macOS Optimised battery charging mode. I am using Safari with just 2 tabs, and Activity monitor on, the MBP is already using 8.05GB memory.

Screenshot 2024-04-26 at 23.01.36.jpg

Interesting why macOS uses more energy, memory on the same MBP than Win11.

A little bit later...have some fun watching yet another debloated, tiny Windows 11. They are coming all the time. No Idea what MS going to do about it! Hope someone would think about debloating macOS... :)
 
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za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
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....How come?

... the MBP is already using 8.05GB memory...
Apologies for snipping so much - it isn't to dismiss your points and observations but to focus on just the question you raised about why macOS uses so much more memory.

This is simply how macOS is engineered to work. It scales to the resources in the system. So, for example, in my 8GB MBA, macOS (and a bunch of relatively minor apps) occupies a fairly consistent 6.2 or 6.3GB RAM. The exact same macOS version, exact same apps doing the exact same thing on my 16Gb M1 uses between 12.3 and 13.4GB.

MacOS simply determines what you're doing, and loads the shared libraries and cache files it's going to need. It pages out what doesn't fit efficiently in the RAM it has to work with.

What you're seeing - in this regard at least - is not a sign that Windows is less memory intensive, it just uses RAM in a different way as the system needs it.
 

chmania

macrumors regular
Dec 2, 2023
214
86
What you're seeing - in this regard at least - is not a sign that Windows is less memory intensive, it just uses RAM in a different way as the system needs it.
I suppose MS can make Win11 use RAM in a different way, or a better way, maybe because MS has lot of feedback from thousands of computer manufacturers, all kinds of chip manufacturers, parts manufacturers around the world, while Apple has practically alone.

It is strange that in the same MBP, made by Apple, Win11 uses much less screen brightness, and much less CPU power.
 

za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,441
1,896
I suppose MS can make Win11 use RAM in a different way, or a better way, maybe because MS has lot of feedback from thousands of computer manufacturers, all kinds of chip manufacturers, parts manufacturers around the world, while Apple has practically alone.

It is strange that in the same MBP, made by Apple, Win11 uses much less screen brightness, and much less CPU power.
It isn't better - or worse - it's a difference in how the two OSes have worked since the days of Windows 95 and MacOS 9 and then OSX. Nothing whatsoever to do with feedback from anyone, sine as far as Microsoft are concerned, those system manufacturers who are going to use Windows have to meet compliance needs. Most of the discussion between hardware manufacturers and MS is one way, and it isn't towards MS, and nor really should it be.

No modern OS can load into RAM, because there's not enough of it. They all page in and out, it's just a designer's choice as to how.

Nor it is surprising about your screen brightness. Drivers and the abstraction layer in Windows are simply registering different characteristics of it. Minimum and maximum settings will be pretty much the same, just the incremental settings between that differ. Pretty much the same as that two different stereos can go just as loud, but the place on the volume control for any specific volume level will be different.

Windows uses less 'CPU power' because it isn't doing so much housekeeping. Basically, it's more limiting on the threads it opens to queue the CPU, and will be less actively prefetching.
 

chmania

macrumors regular
Dec 2, 2023
214
86
It isn't better - or worse - it's a difference in how the two OSes have worked since the days of Windows 95 and MacOS 9 and then OSX.
Well, I know how Windows started, as I used that OS, before Windows came to be. The first time I got to know OSX is when I put it on one of the first Celeron netbooks in 2005.
Nothing whatsoever to do with feedback from anyone, sine as far as Microsoft are concerned, those system manufacturers who are going to use Windows have to meet compliance needs.
It is all to do with feedback from not just anyone, but from the thousands of computer manufacturers. That is a win-win situation. You need the hardware manufacturers to promote the OS, so you also need them to earn money by selling their hardware. So, the cooperation is mutual. But Apple is alone in that world.

And, there are millions (or billions) of beta users, who send automatic feedback voluntarily. Also, there are billions of users, who say yes to all the questions MS asks in the first run of Windows and don't care a hoot, if MS collects data.
No modern OS can load into RAM, because there's not enough of it. They all page in and out, it's just a designer's choice as to how.
That's true, but when the designer is alone in his closed world, it won't be that easy to do - mostly guesswork in the internal closed world, with only one chip maker in Taiwan, and 10 device manufacturers in China. If China pulls the plug on the US...
Nor it is surprising about your screen brightness. Drivers and the abstraction layer in Windows are simply registering different characteristics of it. Minimum and maximum settings will be pretty much the same, just the incremental settings between that differ.
Could be. Win11 on the MBP was running AMD graphics by default, while macOS ran Intel graphics. Above 50% brightness in Win11 on MBP was hard to watch, terribly bright. It looks like macOS is blocking the screen brightness. Trackpad response was much better/easier in Win11 on the MBP, the same goes with Magic Mouse. There were no special Apple gestures, but the standard gestures were working superbly.

The idea to install Win11 in the bootcamp C: is to make way to install Linux in that later, that is a triple boot, to see how Linux fares against macOS. Or, might try a BSD distro. Atm, I'm not that sure, I should do that, or just do it in the standard old way, on a "Windows" laptop. :)
 

JustinePaula

macrumors 6502a
Mar 14, 2012
634
265
What I don't get is the closed system for Apple, and how that is even legal? What Apple is doing is just imagine for a second Ford selling F250 trucks that only ran on Shell fuel, that would be illegal, and just stupid, no one would buy the F250 truck, you need a free market, let the owner/driver decide where they want to fuel up...

But Apple is allowed a monopoly, no one else creates hardware and software under 1 roof, and prevents users from installng a different OS, you can buy the cheapest or most expensive HP, Dell, etc, and run 10 000 flavours of OS, M/soft and Linux, and if you have the talent even Mac OS..Although this would not be legal from your licence agreement with Apple Inc, it can be done...

Laptops/desktops/tablets should run any OS, OS independent, of course it makes sense to pair hardware to software, but it should be a choice.. I really cannot understand how no one is fighting for this..
 

za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,441
1,896
Well, I know how Windows started, as I used that OS, before Windows came to be. The first time I got to know OSX is when I put it on one of the first Celeron netbooks in 2005.

It is all to do with feedback from not just anyone, but from the thousands of computer manufacturers. That is a win-win situation. You need the hardware manufacturers to promote the OS, so you also need them to earn money by selling their hardware. So, the cooperation is mutual. But Apple is alone in that world.

And, there are millions (or billions) of beta users, who send automatic feedback voluntarily. Also, there are billions of users, who say yes to all the questions MS asks in the first run of Windows and don't care a hoot, if MS collects data.

That's true, but when the designer is alone in his closed world, it won't be that easy to do - mostly guesswork in the internal closed world, with only one chip maker in Taiwan, and 10 device manufacturers in China. If China pulls the plug on the US...

Could be. Win11 on the MBP was running AMD graphics by default, while macOS ran Intel graphics. Above 50% brightness in Win11 on MBP was hard to watch, terribly bright. It looks like macOS is blocking the screen brightness. Trackpad response was much better/easier in Win11 on the MBP, the same goes with Magic Mouse. There were no special Apple gestures, but the standard gestures were working superbly.

The idea to install Win11 in the bootcamp C: is to make way to install Linux in that later, that is a triple boot, to see how Linux fares against macOS. Or, might try a BSD distro. Atm, I'm not that sure, I should do that, or just do it in the standard old way, on a "Windows" laptop. :)
I've worked in IT since before Windows (or MacOS) existed, and it has been fascinating to watch how the two operating systems developed, and the functionally different ways in which they work. Personally I (then) preferred DOS because I need my computers not to get in the way of the work I do, and I still mostly use DOS even now for the same reason. But between MacOS and Windows, I've tended to lean towards the Mac, mostly because the resulting products suited my needs and workflows better.

It's not so much true today, but there is no doubt in my mind, that Apple's control over the hardware, operating system and interface has given me (I emphasize 'me') better systems to use. Their building of macOS in the way it occupies the system and resources mirrors how many linux distros work - which is not exactly surprising - but is very different to how Windows does it. That isn't to say I don't like Windows too - I was not a fan up until NT, which was excellent, even if a bit restrictive in terms of hardware interfacing, but that, and the NT kernel which is still used today, is highly competent and in itself very efficient.

It does have a problem though, and that is that unlike macOS, it is not written for a narrow range of known hardware, and because of that, it requires fairly complex device management, driver software, and a HAL, 'hardware abstraction layer', which is where Windows itself interfaces with the system and all its components. It's not a bad thing, just a necessary part of it. In essence, all that 'conversation' between MS and the hardware manufacturers (except Intel, really) is done by MS specifying how the HAL works and the hardware builders then following the rules in order that their devices and systems can communicate across it and into Windows itself.

It does mean though that Windows doesn't have the option to grab the systems resources available in the way macOS does, but it gives rise to this misconception that macOS uses more RAM and more CPU cycles than Windows does when in fact it really doesn't. All that macOS does is grab what is more efficient right at the start, where Windows grabs what it needs, and adds to it as demand grows. You get what is pretty much the same level of utilization on both, but macOS is in effect setting out its stall at the start, while Windows is bringing out the goods only when a customer asks for them.

There is a bit of a caveat though, and that's in how you actually know what system resources are in use. Obviously, that's with Task Manager in Windows and Activity Monitor in macOS, but as you have seen, Task Manager is a fairly lightweight utility which has a moderate/low impact on system utilization, where Activity Monitor is a bit of a cumbersome beast which impacts the system quite a lot, depending on what you're using it to monitor. In other words, what you get from Activity Monitor isn't always a useful guide to demand on the system, which makes it useful mostly for troubleshooting problems. There are better tools which can give you data in the menu bar in real time, and are more lightweight.

Your screen brightness issue is very much like the old 'linear versus logarithmic' debate about volume controls on hifi, and it's entirely down to the difference in how the macOS and Windows device drivers work. It's not hardware (except that with device drivers, there's always a risk of the driver not being 100% compatible) it's merely how the operating system is managing the hardware, and in the case of Windows, whether the device driver matches the device correctly, and is fully compliant with the HAL.

Anyway, sorry, that's far more than you likely ever wanted to know. Personally, I have never been entirely satisfied with how Windows runs on Mac hardware because I've always found small issues with things like screen drivers or ports - Apple's hardware mapping is sometimes odd. But the relative ease of debloating Windows makes it a better experience now than it was previously. That said, I'm not happy with the direction MS are going right now, forcing feature updates, blocking popular configuration and system management tools, pushing ads into the start menu and blocking local accounts on systems in order to ramp up data harvesting, but to be honest, Apple are no better.

Sadly, I'm not a fan of linux in general, though its useful as a platform for some of my needs, so I'll probably stick mostly to DOS!!
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,552
43,528
I've worked in IT since before Windows (or MacOS) existed,
Same, I was a computer operator on an IBM mainframe when we got in a "PC" that had windows 1.0 running, quite an interesting machine

Personally I (then) preferred DOS because I need my computers not to get in the way of the work
This was the major pain point for me when using a Mac, it shielded the user from too much of the computer. I think with Dos and later the cmd shell, it allowed power users to really extend and enhance the OS and the usage to a great deal. This carried forward to Windows having a greater flexibility to altering how the system looked, and behaved.

It's not so much true today, but there is no doubt in my mind, that Apple's control over the hardware, operating system and interface has given me (I emphasize 'me') better systems to use.
I think its still true, Apple controls the hardware and software and is able to customize the OS to work very efficiently with what it has. I also think the Unix architecture is superior to that of windows NT kernel. At this point in both of the development life cycle though I think both operating systems are very robust and manage their resources fairly well.

It does mean though that Windows doesn't have the option to grab the systems resources available in the way macOS does
Windows does it differently, some good, and some bad, but conversely OSX isn't perfect and there are aspects of that OS not handling things as well. I think overall however both operating systems are excellent and the downsides are really minor points to complain about. I think Microsoft has made some strategic decisions regarding windows that make the experience inferior, particularly displaying ads.
 

chmania

macrumors regular
Dec 2, 2023
214
86
Anyway, sorry, that's far more than you likely ever wanted to know. Personally, I have never been entirely satisfied with how Windows runs on Mac hardware because I've always found small issues with things like screen drivers or ports - Apple's hardware mapping is sometimes odd.
That's alright. What you write is interesting. I've been away from Windows and Linux for ~ an year, only using macOS. Didn't think of dual booting with Windows (or Linux), until someone in these forums were taking about it. Suddenly, I'm getting pushed back into the Windows world, and finding a lot of things about debloating Win11, with few debloated OSs, scripts etc. That's pretty interesting, like the days of Tiny XP, Micro XP and such like.

I was thinking why so much light in Win11 on the MBP, which the macOS doesn't have. Apple likes to sell MacBooks with glossy screens, as macOS looks shiny and nice in them. But, Apple uses some sort of chemical screen cover on them, so you won't see your face and room in it. Also, I believe Apple is making the screen brightness artificially lower to achieve that shiny glossy look. Windows on the other hand doesn't have that, the manufacturers match their screens to the OS. So, that much light coming from the MBP's screen with Win11, as Apple's bootcamp doesn't have to do anything about that. And, then Apple is sort of moving away from Intel (and AMD).

It'd nice, if there are scripts to debloat macOS, and even some tiny macOSs around.

Sadly, I'm not a fan of linux in general, though its useful as a platform for some of my needs, so I'll probably stick mostly to DOS!!
You must be talking about the members of the various Linux forums... :)
 
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Regulus67

macrumors 6502
Aug 9, 2023
338
339
Värmland, Sweden
Naughty boy/girl or other :)
Honestly. I find such actions troubling, when it is used against active long time users.

I had one warning once. Later I was suspended once, for trying to answer in a way I believed was honest. Took less than one min after i posted. I was shocked, as I had not seen that coming.
I searched for the section it would have been permitted (according to the first warning), but that section has been shut down a long time ago, as far as I can tell 🤷‍♂️

Such people should be offered to modify whatever they posted, that is causing an issue. Or have the post deleted. Whereby they could choose another more carefully worded post, if they still wished to make a comment
 

LeeW

macrumors 601
Feb 5, 2017
4,234
9,212
Over here
I have had many warnings, but I have never been suspended. I didn't agree with them all, but I'm not complaining. It's their rules. I always get them too fast for a Mod to stumble over the comment, so I suspect the speed at which they respond is due to others reporting a post.
 

Technerd108

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Oct 24, 2021
2,942
4,139
Honestly. I find such actions troubling, when it is used against active long time users.

I had one warning once. Later I was suspended once, for trying to answer in a way I believed was honest. Took less than one min after i posted. I was shocked, as I had not seen that coming.
I searched for the section it would have been permitted (according to the first warning), but that section has been shut down a long time ago, as far as I can tell 🤷‍♂️

Such people should be offered to modify whatever they posted, that is causing an issue. Or have the post deleted. Whereby they could choose another more carefully worded post, if they still wished to make a comment
I agree. I have been suspended because I chose an unpopular position and when the sharks came for me I defended myself. On top of that I was simply responding in kind to the other poster. I could have just ignored it but it seems a double standard on this forum in terms of moderating. One of the people I upset was a friend with a Mod and had them ""moderate" my posts they felt were offensive after they started the entire thing with aggressive and personal attacks. I would think a moderator would look at the context of the thread and see who started the problem and kept responding to my thread but I was the one suspended. Eventually they got suspended too because they were going off the rails on other people too.

The way I feel is this. I post an opinion and people respond good or bad I have no problem with it. It is when people start to insult you personally for no reason that I will not back down or take that kind of treatment without a fight and if I get banned or suspended then I guess that is the price for free speech. I will say this on the side of the Mods. It is a thankless and tough job that requires an impartial person to keep things from getting too off topic or violating forum rules. Most of the time they do a good job. But a few bad apples can ruin the bunch. Some mods are not impartial and seem to act with a preconceived idea rather than objectively judging the facts. Some over moderate and punish too much. As Regulas said there are many interventions and warnings that could be given before a suspension. And those warnings should go to all parties involved. If they disregard 2-3 warnings that actually specify the actions that will be taken then they should be suspended. But one warning that is not specific or no warnings and a suspension is rather draconian in my personal opinion.

At the end of the day we are subject to the Mod's and the rules of this site and if we don't like it we have only one other choice and that is to leave. It is a free forum and has decent debate for the most part. It can be like the wild west on the internet so I am glad there is some moderation but I feel a light hand is always better than a heavy hand.
 

MacCheetah3

macrumors 68020
Nov 14, 2003
2,108
1,083
Central MN
Some recent J2C videos have echoed what's (now) wrong with the (modern) Windows PC. You see, it's not so much Windows.


Yes, the "PC" pushes the performance limits, but that comes at costs -- not just the literal financial expenses. On the mostly just annoying side, large bundles of power wires and huge heatsinks, which are there because of massive power requirements and the associated heat generation. Creeping (back) into the spotlight is how these performance wars are at the expense of reliability/stability. Unless someone has seen a definitive conclusion otherwise, I think, Jay's mistaken on his assumption in the first embedded video. In my experience, the i7 and i9 CPUs do require what seems like an insane voltage to maintain advertised clock speeds for more than a minute. As an anecdote, my PC has restarted to the UEFI a few times during multithread workloads. I do use Asus AI and it's because I did try to underplot, where only a -0.05mv offset caused frequent instability. As a little more evidence, look at the specs for Nvidia's professional RTX (formerly Quadro) models. The clocks are significantly lower than the consumer versions. Why? Probably because Nvidia knows pushing to the performance limits results in instability and otherwise significantly erroneous results.

Hate bloat, proprietary, and otherwise a management nightmare: say hello to ARGB. See the second embedded video and its commentary. And this hell involves both the hardware and software sides.

With bloat in mind, I'll shift my comments back to the OSs and OOBE. There have been comments that macOS is "bloated." I disagree. I don't regularly use the former iLife suite apps (Pages, Numbers, GarageBand, etc) but the inclusion of them has overall been a value for Mac buyers. And, beyond Garageband's default instruments, etc taking up somewhat notable storage space, if you don't use these additional first-party apps, they're of little or no hindrance. As for Windows, other than the telemetry questionnaire instance and MS account requirement, the only other (somewhat) common complaint is OneDrive resource usage. On the other side, Apple also pressures the use of an Apple ID and some users have complained about iCloud resource usage. Another complaint is Settings/Control Panels. Honestly, I think, MS and Apple have made them a bit convoluted in the pursuit of features. Regarding pre-built/name brand PCs, the third embedded video highlights that downfall, software wise anyway. Furthermore, you can also watch (GN) Steve's rant. Last but not least, let's talk OS stability. I haven't witnessed a KP or BSOD in years. In other words, in my experience, both are maturely stable.

In conclusion, on the OS level, the choice is really going to rest on which you're most accustomed. As a whole, objectively, the "PC" has plenty of downsides, flaws, irritants, lack of evolutionary progress, and more. So, then we circle back to the crutch of familiarity.
 
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paardenkapper

macrumors regular
Apr 8, 2023
194
120
Germany
Just my 2 cents: But why make the decision a political one? Or pretend it was the one or the other?

Use whatever you like to reach the goal you're trying to achieve - be a designer, programmer, gamer - it has never been cheaper and easier to switch forth and back.
 
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chmania

macrumors regular
Dec 2, 2023
214
86
After a bit of experimenting in the weekend, I decided that dual booting with Windows is not worth, at least for me. It is much better have the 2nd dedicated laptop with Win11 nearby. That way, I can move from one OS to the other quite easily. There are things that I can do with macOS that I can't do with the other OS, be it Win11 or Linux, vice versa, so best have both devices on. When not used the device will go to sleep by itself.
 

paardenkapper

macrumors regular
Apr 8, 2023
194
120
Germany
It's political when people say: I like Apple's products but their policies towards customers, repairability etc. are abhorrent.

In fact Windows has gotten terrible in the last years while Linux has improved a lot especially for end users.
Remember when the only games you could play on Linux were UT and Quake (in a nutshell)?
 
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