Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

baryon

macrumors 68040
Oct 3, 2009
3,881
2,941
You mean chargers or USB to Lightning adaptors? A charger is just an AC wall power to 5V USB adaptor, totally dumb technology.

I mean chargers. Although an AC adapter is indeed simple, it can still kill a person as we've just seen. So while it's simple, it needs to be built properly. And if Apple can authorise certain chips vs. others, they can verify if the charger is built correctly. I guess.

But it may be a bit overkill, since the simple USB cable could never kill anyone so why does it need to be so strictly controlled…
 

MachineShedFred

macrumors member
Aug 5, 2010
38
9
My MBP knock of was making queer noises, I imminently threw it away, along with all the knock off schist I have.

This is why we should all use 30V DC electricity, instead of 120V and for crap's sake 220V???

Volts don't matter (to people). It's the amps.

Volts definitely matter to semiconductors.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,563
43,543
[MOD NOTE]
Enough with the puns, they're in poor taste, someone died. Lets discuss the topic, no reason to make light of an accident that took a life
 

mabhatter

macrumors 65816
Jan 3, 2009
1,022
388
My MBP knock of was making queer noises, I imminently threw it away, along with all the knock off schist I have.

This is why we should all use 30V DC electricity, instead of 120V and for crap's sake 220V???

At the amperage needed to drive DC powered appliances like Washers and Dryers and refrigerators, you know the stuff we actually NEEED. DC at high current is WAY MORE DEADLY than AC at high voltage, a common lightweight extension cord safely transmits 15amps AC with room to spare. Look how big your cars jumper cabled are to push the same amount of DC current. If you stick a fork in an AC wall socket you get zapped, if you stick a fork on 15amps DC its welded to the circuit.
 
Last edited:

Bug-Creator

macrumors 68000
May 30, 2011
1,764
4,689
Germany
The 3rd prong is also why we told the EU to go to hell when they told us to switch to European 2 pin plugs.


Ermmmm....

All European countries I've been to use wall sockets with 3 contacts in varying forms.

These are mandatory for anything in a pure metal case (washing machines, toasters etc).

2 contact plugs are only used with stuff that is double-isolated, so there is no chance of a live wire getting contact to an exposed metal part.

For instance, just take a look at the PSU for an older :apple: laptop (not sure if still true for the current line).
Sure there is a 3 contact plug at the end of the cable, but once you remove the cable from the PSU you'll find a 2 contact plug just like the ones you might find on you DVD-player or electric razor.

Back to topic:
What most likely happened here is that one contact from the primary got shorted to the secondary side.

Voltage between the 2 USB power-line was still only 5V (so nothing got damaged), but voltage relative to ground was 225V and 230V (actually it was alternating between -311 and +311V).
 

Makosuke

macrumors 604
Aug 15, 2001
6,666
1,250
The Cool Part of CA, USA
Yes, that is a reason in favor of low voltage DC. However, there are a zillion other, better reasons to use AC.
Actually, in a modern household where the majority of devices are relatively low power and don't have a motor, DC would be more efficient than AC and work just fine. The main advantage of AC is the ease of dropping from higher to lower voltage when going from transmission to local distribution, or for running motors efficiently. When 90% of the stuff in your house is running on 5VDC, 120/240V AC is wild overkill. At high voltages AC does have the advantage that it doesn't lock up your muscles if you get current running through you, so it's slightly safer at an equivalent voltage.

You'd still need something high-power (and probably AC, though DC could work) for your vacuum or hair dryer, but for most other things these days modest-voltage DC would work well.

Talk about a little knowledge can be dangerous! As previous posts have said, voltage doesn't kill it's the current. Look at police tasers as an example. Second, Japanese voltage is 220v just like Europe so it's no surprise.
The most accurate thing to say would be that BOTH kill, and only when it goes to the right place in your body. That's why tazers fire TWO darts, with the intent being that the current doesn't go through your heart. And why people shot in the chest near the heart sometimes die--the current ends up going through their heart and kills them, particularly if they had something wrong to begin with.

Japan, by the way, is NOT 220V--it's the lowest in the world at 100VAC. The west half of the country is at 60Hz and the east at 50Hz, which is bizarre, because it has two separate grids and appliances with AC motors in them can't be moved from one half of the country to the other and still work properly.

Japan's real issue, though, is that most of the country is still wired with non-polarized 2-prong outlets, which is completely insane for anything bigger than a power brick.

The things everyone forgets is the amps. Europe and the US both output a similar amount of power. Europe has double the volts but half the amps. That gives you the same amount of watts.
Right, which is why I said that you save copper in the walls in Europe vs the US's 120V household wiring--lower current equals thinner wire (or less wire loss for the same size wire).

And I'm also aware that in most countries with 220V the outlet design is safer (like UAE style in the photo earlier with the doors in the prongs, the individually shielded pins, and switches on each outlet). Still, things can and do go wrong. Which is what GFCI is for; I did not realize GFCI was a requirement on all circuits in some European countries (just on ones exposed to water in the US--kitchen, bath, outdoor), although I can see why you'd do that--it's the only thing that's going to make it safe.

Seems like it would be a pain with inductive loads, though, since those have a tendency to trip GFCI breakers.
 

ouimetnick

macrumors 68040
Aug 28, 2008
3,552
6,344
Beverly, Massachusetts
Volts directly determine the amps. It's Ohm's Law. Sure some can go around it (Taser for example, although it doesn't always work as planed) DC is general more dangerous that AC as it holds on and grips. AC is always changing polarity which is why you see electrocution or shock victims shake when shocked by AC. If you see those rodent killers that electrocute with DC, once they touch the lethal voltage, they freeze to it.. because it is DC.

From personal experience, AC @ 120V hurts like a bitch but in my case didn't kill (It went from one hand to the table (grounded) Sure it can kill, but most of the time (well depending on how you are grounded) it simply hurts like a bitch. As for 220V AC, I don't know and don't want to know either.

And yes, less that 1A is more than enough to kill, but that dangerous current won't penetrate skin at the 6V for an iPhone charger or whatever it is.

I once was shocked by a charged electrolytic capacitor in an amp. 20,000µF at 70VDC. Really annoying tingle, and I pulled away. Short it with a screwdriver, the amount of current will spot weld the screw driver right to the terminals, make a loud spark too. Funny though, touching it with bare hands give a annoying tingle. Touching a capacitor for the flash in a camera 30µF at 400VDC hurts A LOT more. Way worse that a 120VAC socket.
 

nia820

macrumors 68020
Jun 27, 2011
2,131
1,980
I know I'm going to sound crazy for saying this but I think apple made up this story to deter people from using 3rd party accessories.

This story just sounds really fishy to me.
 

FatMax

macrumors 6502
Jun 28, 2007
399
107
Norway
I know I'm going to sound crazy for saying this but I think apple made up this story to deter people from using 3rd party accessories.

This story just sounds really fishy to me.

Are you serious? A woman died!

----------

Volts directly determine the amps. It's Ohm's Law. Sure some can go around it (Taser for example, although it doesn't always work as planed) DC is general more dangerous that AC as it holds on and grips. AC is always changing polarity which is why you see electrocution or shock victims shake when shocked by AC. If you see those rodent killers that electrocute with DC, once they touch the lethal voltage, they freeze to it.. because it is DC.

From personal experience, AC @ 120V hurts like a bitch but in my case didn't kill (It went from one hand to the table (grounded) Sure it can kill, but most of the time (well depending on how you are grounded) it simply hurts like a bitch. As for 220V AC, I don't know and don't want to know either.

And yes, less that 1A is more than enough to kill, but that dangerous current won't penetrate skin at the 6V for an iPhone charger or whatever it is.

I once was shocked by a charged electrolytic capacitor in an amp. 20,000µF at 70VDC. Really annoying tingle, and I pulled away. Short it with a screwdriver, the amount of current will spot weld the screw driver right to the terminals, make a loud spark too. Funny though, touching it with bare hands give a annoying tingle. Touching a capacitor for the flash in a camera 30µF at 400VDC hurts A LOT more. Way worse that a 120VAC socket.

I haven't "tried" 120V, but I would assume its half as much shakes as getting 230V ;)

I've had 230V volts on 3 occasions, the worst one from power being let from one hand to the other, straight through the heart. The other ones where from finger to finger on the same hand.

The shaking was just as bad in either case.

Yes, I was hospitalized from the first one.
 

egoistaxx9

macrumors 6502
Jun 25, 2013
289
0
thank god the iphones and the 'original cables' are safe to use, i was really scared after reading the news.
 

lostngone

macrumors 65816
Aug 11, 2003
1,431
3,804
Anchorage
Volts directly determine the amps. It's Ohm's Law. Sure some can go around it (Taser for example, although it doesn't always work as planed) DC is general more dangerous that AC as it holds on and grips. AC is always changing polarity which is why you see electrocution or shock victims shake when shocked by AC. If you see those rodent killers that electrocute with DC, once they touch the lethal voltage, they freeze to it.. because it is DC.

From personal experience, AC @ 120V hurts like a bitch but in my case didn't kill (It went from one hand to the table (grounded) Sure it can kill, but most of the time (well depending on how you are grounded) it simply hurts like a bitch. As for 220V AC, I don't know and don't want to know either.

And yes, less that 1A is more than enough to kill, but that dangerous current won't penetrate skin at the 6V for an iPhone charger or whatever it is.

I once was shocked by a charged electrolytic capacitor in an amp. 20,000µF at 70VDC. Really annoying tingle, and I pulled away. Short it with a screwdriver, the amount of current will spot weld the screw driver right to the terminals, make a loud spark too. Funny though, touching it with bare hands give a annoying tingle. Touching a capacitor for the flash in a camera 30µF at 400VDC hurts A LOT more. Way worse that a 120VAC socket.

"Volts directly determine the amps"? Care to explain this? Yes I know all about ohms law.

"DC is general more dangerous that AC" I think you have that backwards.

"From personal experience, AC @ 120V hurts like a bitch but in my case didn't kill" Well you are lucky because U.S. house hold supply has more then plenty of potential to kill.
 

FatMax

macrumors 6502
Jun 28, 2007
399
107
Norway
"Volts directly determine the amps"? Care to explain this? Yes I know all about ohms law.

"DC is general more dangerous that AC" I think you have that backwards.

"From personal experience, AC @ 120V hurts like a bitch but in my case didn't kill" Well you are lucky because U.S. house hold supply has more then plenty of potential to kill.

To be honest, I think you have it backward. Put a wrench between two poles on a car battery and touch it. I doubt we will get a status report from you on that.

It all depends on where you get hit, and where it goes out, in terms of household power supply.

And yes, Volts directly determines the Amps.
 

ouimetnick

macrumors 68040
Aug 28, 2008
3,552
6,344
Beverly, Massachusetts
Here is my full explanation that I've told people before who ask and question. It is what I wrote for an open response in electronics class in school.

AC (Alternating Current) flows in a back and forth direction . AC is always changing its voltage level from some max positive value to some max negative value. As a result of this constant changing AC voltage reaches zero volts for a breif instant. This is what makes AC slightly less dangerous than DC. When AC reaches zero volts you might have an opportunity to move your muscles if you were being shocked and maybe disconnect yourself from the electricity . Also the bidirectional flow of AC through your muscles will make your muscles twitch rather than contract in one direction like DC will.

DC being unidirectional (flowing in the same direction) will cause your muscles to contract in a given direction and stay contracted. So if you grabed a wire, DC can make your muscles contract to hold on. AC causes muscles to contract in different direction as the flow of current changes direction. So if you grab on to an AC wire the fluttering muscles in your hand won't grab and hold on as tightly. You have a better chance of releasing your grip from an AC wire or having your hand knocked away by someone else because AC is not making you grip as hard as DC would.

I wasn't corrected. But what makes people think AC is more dangerous is the fact that AC is sometimes measured at the voltage you find with a multimeter, yet you have to take into consideration RMS voltage which makes the voltage slightly higher. Sure even a 9V battery can theoretically kill you. A new 9V battery can put out 4A of current across a dead short, more than the full mA needed to kill you, yet you don't die because 9V is to low to penetrate your skin and reach your heart. If you wired it directly across your heart, then you may have a chance to die.



Here is a good tutorial about voltage and amperes and how they relate to each other with Ohm's Law.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xONZcBJh5A
 
Last edited:

Dudical

macrumors member
Jan 5, 2012
38
-1
Ahh, more xenophobia and racism from the MacRumors crowd. Count how many times you see the word "Chinese" used as a pejorative in this thread. Now look at the bottom of your Macbook Pro and tell me where it's made.

Stop using the word "Chinese" to mean "sh¡tty." You're letting your racism hang out.
 

Krevnik

macrumors 601
Sep 8, 2003
4,100
1,309
I'm not quite sure why this is so hard to get for so many people, but anyway:

It's current and voltage that kills you. In the end it's the amount of electric energy that flows into your body that is important. It's defined as E = UIt with the voltage U, the current I and the time t (assuming U and I are constant). That means: The higher the current, voltage or exposure time, the deadlier. It's also important how the electric current flows through your body (heart and lungs are particularly dangerous). It's of course more complicated, but just never think that any of those factors is not dangerous. They all are in the end.

The problem with this statement is that you blame the wrong piece of the puzzle for the death. Current (electrons flowing) is what kills you. Period.

The reason voltage gets sucked in is because it is related to current via resistance. Lower resistance, keep voltage constant, current increases. Raise voltage while keeping resistance constant, current increases. In both cases, the amount of energy increases as well, which can lead to the confusion.

But the interesting thing here is that you are right in saying you shouldn't ignore voltage, even if the explanation is wrong. Because of the link between voltage and current. But I don't have to raise the voltage to raise the current, I can lower the resistance by dunking you in salt water.

Your statement is a bit like saying "It isn't the fat that kills you, it's the calories", when in fact, it is the fat, but the more fat you eat, the more calories you are eating as well. There's correlation, but it is a side-effect, not a root cause.
 

jctevere

macrumors 6502
Feb 7, 2009
278
27
I believe it... When the iPhone 5 came out I bought 3 "lightning" cables on eBay for like $15 total ($5 each) when they became available (replicated). I knew the price was too low to be authentic cables - but hey, they worked.

Within about a month or two, they started to peel away from the lighting connector and turn green and twist the white plastic. Eventually it stopped working all together.

I brought it to the genius bar (forgetting this was not my charger which came with the phone). They explained how the cable was burning internally and the green is the color it turns from that.

They replaced the cable for free and sent it back to headquarters for testing. When I got back to my car and charged my phone with my car cable, I realized that THIS was the OEM cable (it is slightly different, you can tell by the feel). I was happy I got a OEM cable for basically $5.

But I was shocked (not literally)! I went home and threw out the other two cables I gave to my brother and sister and told them about it. I'm definitely not going to buy any Chinese knockoff cables again (the cables shipped from China). Straight to the Apple store next time.

Too bad this lady lost her life over this... RIP. Let this be a lesson to all, don't buy knock-off products. Karma will get you!
 

FatMax

macrumors 6502
Jun 28, 2007
399
107
Norway
The problem with this statement is that you blame the wrong piece of the puzzle for the death. Current (electrons flowing) is what kills you. Period.

The reason voltage gets sucked in is because it is related to current via resistance. Lower resistance, keep voltage constant, current increases. Raise voltage while keepiing resistance constant, current increases. In both cases, the amount of energy increases as well, which can lead to the confusion.

But the interesting thing here is that you are right in saying you shouldn't ignore voltage, even if the explanation is wrong. Because of the link between voltage and current. But I don't have to raise the voltage to raise the current, I can lower the resistance by dunking you in salt water.

Your statement is a bit like saying "It isn't the fat that kills you, it's the calories", when in fact, it is the fat, but the more fat you eat, the more calories you are eating as well. There's correlation, but it is a side-effect, not a root cause.

All this blabber, for a initial worthless piece of "fact". Yes, current can kill, but in what definition of current...?

Why is it that people can't understand that the voltage help the amps being deadly, because the resistance lets it? It's that simple.
 

saggsy

macrumors newbie
Jun 28, 2004
25
0
Australia
Electrician living in Australia our line voltage is 240V.

Had quite a few shocks in my time.

In my experience if you receive a shock on one hand and are touching a grounded object with the other hand the shock will travel from one hand and out the other going straight across the top of your chest. Hurts like **** but hasn't killed me of the three shocks I've had like that.

I have a theory that if you receive a shock on either hand and you are grounded by not wearing shoes to relatively low resistive surface then the shock would travel from your hand and down through your body out of one or both feet to ground. In doing this the shock passes your heart.

It takes 30 milliamps or more to stop the heart of healthy people and sometimes only 10 milliamps or more to stop the heart of young children and elderly people.

Our electrical standards dictate that any 'socket outlet' must be protected by a residual current device or 'safety switch' which will trip when leakage to ground exceeds 30 milliamps and will trip within 100 milli seconds. For outlets installed in kindergartens, aged care facilities and hospital surgery and consult rooms the RCD must be rated at 10 milliamps.

It is still possible but unlikely that this tragedy would have occurred if the socket outlet had sufficient RCD protection.

saggsy
 

daviddth

macrumors 6502a
Jun 29, 2009
787
104
Australia
Electrician living in Australia our line voltage is 240V.

Had quite a few shocks in my time.

In my experience if you receive a shock on one hand and are touching a grounded object with the other hand the shock will travel from one hand and out the other going straight across the top of your chest. Hurts like **** but hasn't killed me of the three shocks I've had like that.

I have a theory that if you receive a shock on either hand and you are grounded by not wearing shoes to relatively low resistive surface then the shock would travel from your hand and down through your body out of one or both feet to ground. In doing this the shock passes your heart.

It takes 30 milliamps or more to stop the heart of healthy people and sometimes only 10 milliamps or more to stop the heart of young children and elderly people.

Our electrical standards dictate that any 'socket outlet' must be protected by a residual current device or 'safety switch' which will trip when leakage to ground exceeds 30 milliamps and will trip within 100 milli seconds. For outlets installed in kindergartens, aged care facilities and hospital surgery and consult rooms the RCD must be rated at 10 milliamps.

It is still possible but unlikely that this tragedy would have occurred if the socket outlet had sufficient RCD protection.

saggsy

Former electrician here in Austrtalia too, and yes more hits than I care to count, and I still wear the scars of 3 phase 415V across the back of the hand some 25 years ago.

Dont forget that the RCD devices on power circuits are only mandated for new houses, or on upgrades to older houses, and there are tens of thousands of houses and businesses out there that have no protection at all.

I have found it rather amusing reading all the comments from "Armchair Sparky's" in the thread
 

anthony11

macrumors 6502
May 18, 2007
332
8
Seattle, WA
They replaced the cable for free and sent it back to headquarters for testing.
They swapped you a legit cable for a knockoff you bought on eBay? Wow. I would expect that they'd tell you that you were on your own.

Balls man. Half of these people need to look past the word used and realize some poor lady died.
We don't really know that for sure. Given that the country in question contrives fake fossils and harvests organs from Falun Gong practitioners, why assume that this story is legit?
 

Fishticks

macrumors 6502
Sep 20, 2012
297
40
"Likely"?? What is that supposed to mean? Is it so hard to determine whether the charger is truly fake? :confused:

So RIGHT.
Keep your likely informations to yourselves, MacRumors, and when it's a matter of life or death of a person, only publish verified information.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.