Discrete Graphics cards in Mac Mini?

[toru173]

Hi all. I've been talking to Serpent and I'll have an update as soon as he replies to my PM. Hooray for us!

Edit: He doesn't mind sharing any info, he just doesn't have the time to write it up into a tutorial or anything. As such:

Yes, that would be entirely possible! One could use the new RAID card released for the Mac Pro (or any third party RAID card) to support RAID on the mini.

I've been in contact with Serpent and it seems he was unable to purchase an adaptor so he made his own. The process isn't complicated, just time consuming - have a look at the following pages and basically just solder one connector to the other

http://[http://www.hardwarebook.info/PCI_Express_Mini_Card
http://www.interfacebus.com/Design_PCI_Express_1x_PinOut.html

Note: have a read of this for signal name clarifications, keep your cables short, use something like IDE cable and see if you can verify these signals. I suggest powering the PCI-Express device (either the Graphics Card or a RAID card) from an external source and only connect the grounds (GND). That way you don't load the port more then it should be loaded.

Once again, we are all grateful to Serpent for proving this worked. Thanks Serpent!

 

[serpent]

WOW! I come up with a few things to mod "our" mini's and now my intentions are blown all out of porportion.
Way before this post started here @ MacRumors, I became active on the 123macmini forum. There I enjoyed the upgrading sub forum and befriended a fellow member here named Kaidomac. The hundreds of posts like "what kinda ram should I buy to upgrade my mini" Kinda spurred us on to truelly mod this thing and our quest to unleach the mini's full potential began. Although we quite often chatted privately, all discoveries we had made were discussed openly and explained in great detail in the forums. Even tho I suck at documenting things pictures and links to my flickr account and all wiring diagrams links were provided. When approached by the owners of 123mm that they wanted to do an article on my work, I explained that I had not the time nor the skills to to so. Again now I am in the same boat. If you take the time to look back at my posts you will see me talking of using the m-pci-e for video or raid and running the mini on 12v. For 12v operation do I really need to take a picture of a 3.3k resistor soldered from the iSense wire to the ground? Just go here and see for yourself. Only difference is PPC mini's need a 6.8k resistor to fool the iSense.
gloating...........
Are pictures and documentation needed for home brewing the m-pci-e x pci-e adapter? Yes! But you know what? Like I told turu in a PM, I am not sure whether doing this has lead to 2gb's of my ram burning out and subsequently the failure of my 500gb HDD.
Hey everybody here's what you do!............umm caution doing so might brick your mini!
Am I being cagey or looking for credit for this hack? I couldn't give a flying F... about it!
I don't want to say this, because it's against my nature......Aprilfools am I really the Butthead? If what you say is true?

Sweet. You guys rock! It's fun modding this stuff. (I'm the pink case guy...) All I want is a one-for-all PSU!

(Shhhhhhh don't tell anybody! I've allready told you how to make it and turu's linked to the site that proves it will work!)Then what is stopping you from going to Radio Shack and buying a 3.3k resistor and running your tower from an ATX PSU? Do you need me to make it for you?
Yeah I did all this and then some, but maybe you all forgot something on the way.....The true reason why you Hack.

Serpent

Jeez make some money! Hell I can't even start a post here in the Marketplace! Hello can maybe one of the Mods here do some magic so I can?

 

[kaidomac]

I think Serpent and I need to clear some things up.

We both are Mac Mini enthusiasts. This is a hobby that we pursue in our spare time, at our leisure, with our own finances. We've had a lot of successes, but we've also had a lot of failures too. Please don't pressure us to get stuff done. It takes time, money, effort, and frustration to do even some seemingly simple things. For example, finding that adapter to turn the DVD drive port into a usable port for IDE devices took me months of searching for correct parts, buying parts that didn't work, trying to speak different languages to get vendors to send parts to me, etc. Then it took more effort for Serpent to figure out how to correctly swap the cables so that we could use standard IDE cables through wire reversal. Re-pinning by hand isn't exactly a fun chore The point is we're not paid to do this and there's no schedule set out for us since we never know whether something will work or not. I have a whole box of (expensive) parts that simply don't work! This is simply how hobbyist R&D goes...sometimes slow, sometimes fast, lots of work and frustration, but lots of happiness when you get even the smallest thing to work. Recently Serpent's Mini blew up on him and fried his ram and hard drive, along with his entire music collection and many other important files. His machine is out of commission until Seagate can hook his drive back up. On the flip side, I finally scraped together enough money to get a refurb Mini and look forward to finishing up a couple other haxies we've been hammering away on. So, please be patient - we'll finish when we finish.

 

[serpent]

On another note.
If you look at whats been done so far with hacking this machine, other than what we should be able to finish up and document over the next couple of weeks. I think its far more important for this and every other Apple community to concentrate its time cracking the EFI. My belief is once were able to do so it will be able to be flashed onto any Intel MB and allow us to configure any hardware combination we may desire. Doing so it will force Apple to build the machines we want and need.
The next step up from a mini, is a 2ghz Mac Pro @ $2200. Is there $1400 worth of of equiptment that Apple throws into a Mac Pro? I don't think so. Other than the cost of the additional processor and larger case, I think all other internal components of the mini due to its size costs Apple More to purchase or manufacture and no wifi or BT. Will the ability of a mini to run a 1x video card or raid really give us what we need? I don't think so, Other than having a One-Of-A-Kind and the satisfaction of modding something to it's limits, We've also spent close to the price of a base Mac Pro. But my building our own machines with non-Apple parts.......Thats a problem that Apple will have to answer and they only have two choices.
1. Trick everyone with a security update that will render these machines inoperable(i don't know the legality of them doing so?)
2. Build us a machine with upgradable components at a reasonable price.(IMO $1600)
But then again any mini w/2gb's of ram and a 7200 rpm HDD does quite well running any Pro App you throw at it.

Serpent

 

[kaidomac]

Yeah I think after the Mini PCI slot thing is wrapped up, it's really going to be up to the software guys to go from there - hacking the GMA950 up to support more ram, overclocking different bits and pieces, messing with the EFI, etc. Even then it's kind of a moot point, you're not going to get that much enhanced functionality beyond what the hardware can physically support, even with hardware hacks. We will always be limited by the processor speed (2.33ghz C2D max) and from what I understand the 3gb ram cap, and moreso by the graphics card - even if we do manage to get a real video card in there, it's still on the somewhat wimpy Mini PCI Express bus, which isn't even full-speed.

Steve, bring back the Cube. Please

 

[kaidomac]

Status update:

ATX PSU transplant successful via iSense resistor mod. Will post writeup once we get little things like sleep working and test out power consumption with my Kill-a-Watt Props to serpent for this hack. Stay tuned

 

[toru173]

Excellent! It's MUCH better to have a PC psu if one is going to be running all these mods, a la serpent. I'm up for a 1.5 G4 mini (yay hand-me-downs) soon, so I am considering doing this mod (w a 6.8K of course) and adding in a hard disk or optical drive or something. I'd get an Intel but I have all of zero monies u_u

 

[walberg]

A thought struck me just recently - why can't we have discrete graphics inside the mac mini? Two reasons. There isn't any space, and there's no way to connect it. To the first we could always mount the card outside the enclosure - I'm sure many of us here are able and willing to sacrifice the time needed to make that look pretty (or even the good looks) in order to get some better frame rates.

The second is more difficult to deal with. With a lot of thinking, though, I realised that the Airport card has to have an expansion bus of some sort. I had a look at pictures of the mini nude (here, labled "J") I recognised it as a mini PCI-e port. This is basically a PCI-e x1 port plus a usb port. Checking out the manufacturer's details for the 802.11n airport module (an Atheros card) confirmed this.

I went and checked out one of my favourite sites for bus adapters, http://www.adexelec.com/ and I found this:



This means that any PCI-e x1 card can be plugged into a mini PCI-e socket. With
this, also from them, one could conceivably use any graphics card on the market today.

Mechanically, they are now compatible. This article shows that it would also be electrically compatible, so long as the mechanical adapter would be able to supply sufficient power. Software? I don't know, but I'm quite sure that it would work under windows. Perhaps if the mac-specific cards were used, they would also be recognized by the mini?

I don't have a mini nor do I have the funds to try this out. I'm almost positive that it would work, but I don't know how much of a performance gain you would actually see. Certainly any of the hardware accelerated features of the card would be demonstrated, but would one be better off just using the integrated graphics?

At the very least, though, this would be an interesting hack. I hope someone tries it out ^_^

Whith that adapter it should be possible to put in a pci-e sata card or even a raid card? true?

 

[vga4life]

Whith that adapter it should be possible to put in a pci-e sata card or even a raid card? true?

Yes, assuming it's mac-compatible.

 

[toru173]

I was thinking - if people are still interested in this, perhaps we should organise a bulk shipment? It would get us the adapter and possibly at a lower price then listed

 

[vga4life]

There seems to be some interest in this topic at http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=78450 - the thread poster there was quoted $84 for the PEMINI2X1-F adapter but believe it's not rated for enough power to drive a 7300GT.

I suggested over there a combo approach using the PEXP8-EX 8x slot extender w/ external power supply to overcome this.

 

[vinea]

There seems to be some interest in this topic at http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=78450 - the thread poster there was quoted $84 for the PEMINI2X1-F adapter but believe it's not rated for enough power to drive a 7300GT.

I suggested over there a combo approach using the PEXP8-EX 8x slot extender w/ external power supply to overcome this.

Yes, I spoke to an engineer over there but the combo of cards, while ugly, should work enough for a proof of concept. Heck, we might be able to get THEM to try it before we buy anything. If not I don't mind buying all the pieces to try but as I said in the thread I don't own a mini...I bought one for my Dad. I'd prefer not to brick his machine.

To fab a card to our requirement would cost some $$$ but make a DIY thing a much easier task. I dunno that there are enough modders to make that worth while though.

I have not called the ModBook folks as I've been busy with other stuff...if Serpent (when he gets his mini back) or Kaidomac wants to try this I'm willing to paypal $20-$30 to defray the cost of the various parts. If a couple folks did this it wouldn't be $200 out of their pocket but a little less. Up to them to say yes and up to us to help out if that's the desire. Time is usually the limiting factor but community appreciation is always a good motivator. $20 is like a case of beer so I figure this is just an electronic way of sending them a cold one.

Not being part of this forum or active on 123macmini other than these two I don't know anyone so don't feel left out.

Or y'all can wait for Thanksgiving when I expect to spend some time at my dad's.

 

[walberg]

NAVSATA34EC sata card

The Nitro AV Sata card (is directly a 34 mm pci e card (i have the idea to put this card (or compatible instead of the airpord card, of course i should disassemble the mini to make room for the connectors. (put the logic board in a Addonics tower (just as in the AMUG project 2 years ago)

This card is fis and Port Multyplier compliant.

 

[toru173]

A thought just struck me - perhaps we could put together a bursary (donation box or something) to help development? The biggest stumbling block at the moment seems to be Kaidomac and Serpent are too busy to concentrate on this and no-one else has the money or is willing to take the risk. The first person to really get an external video card working in the mac mini gets the sum of donations. That ought to cover any costs incured

 

[kaidomac]

A thought just struck me - perhaps we could put together a bursary (donation box or something) to help development? The biggest stumbling block at the moment seems to be Kaidomac and Serpent are too busy to concentrate on this and no-one else has the money or is willing to take the risk. The first person to really get an external video card working in the mac mini gets the sum of donations. That ought to cover any costs incured

Hold off on that idea for now. Serpent has been tinkering with a homemade PCI Express adapter; I'm not sure if it's going to work or not but we're still hammering away.

 

[kaidomac]

I was thinking - if people are still interested in this, perhaps we should organise a bulk shipment? It would get us the adapter and possibly at a lower price then listed

That's the issue - we don't know if the pre-made adapter will work or not. It'd be a major bummer to blow a chunk of change only to find out that it doesn't work

There seems to be some interest in this topic at http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=78450 - the thread poster there was quoted $84 for the PEMINI2X1-F adapter but believe it's not rated for enough power to drive a 7300GT.

I suggested over there a combo approach using the PEXP8-EX 8x slot extender w/ external power supply to overcome this.

Nice find! I'll see if I can order one up tomorrow

Crud, I accidentally hit the "X" button on my tab here, I had a HUGE post on PCI Express written Anyway, cbergeron over at 123MacMini has successfully installed a port multiplier into his Mini and is currently running 4 WD Raptor 10,000 RPM drives, in RAID 10 using Addonics controller w/HPM). He's asked that you don't Digg it until he's posted more information. Here's the link, with photos:

http://www.123macmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=97605

Review of a 1x PCI Express 7300GT: (note that the 16x version is faster!)

http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/1045/1/page_1_introduction/index.html

We can get these for $149 from Apple (16x, dual-DVI); they are sold for the Mac Pro (we need the video card hackers in here; the PC equivalents sell for like half the price of the Mac version!). But how does it compare to the integrated GMA950? Here are a couple links you can compare the specs at:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1821810,00.asp

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicat...=P56-7826&SRCCODE=SHOPPINGDF&CMP=OTC-SHOPPING

I'm not good with performance numbers, anyone care to clarify? At first glance there doesn't seem to be much performance difference...but at least we'd gain the use of a second monitor using the dual-DVI (or third, if integrated still works).

 

[flopticalcube]

Looks to be about 3 times faster on 3dmark06 than the GMA950.

 

[kaidomac]

Looks to be about 3 times faster on 3dmark06 than the GMA950.

So the question becomes is it worth $270+ ($150 video card + $84 Mini PCIe adapter + $37 16x adapter) to get that kind of functionality into the Mini? At the very least, running dual monitors would be very interesting. I'm also wondering how the Mini would handle the additional DVI ports - it'd be cool if the integrated graphics still worked fine (I don't see any reason why not?) so we could be sporting tri-monitors on this little beast

 

[kaidomac]

Okay, so bandwidth issues aside, I don't see any reason why the adapter configuration vinea suggested wouldn't work. Aside from price, the only major stumbling block I see is the power issue. According to Intel, the PCI Express x16 connector can deliver up to 75 watts of power to a 16x PCI Express card:

http://www.intel.com/support/motherboards/desktop/sb/CS-012073.htm

Since the Mini only has a 110-watt power supply I'm guessing that the Mini PCI Express connector does not have that high of a rating, thus requiring the use of the 8x power adapter that vinea suggested or a similar setup. Serpent is studying the pinout specs on the PCI Express stuff, so perhaps we can get away with using the Mini PCIe to 1x PCIe adapter coupled with the 1x to 16x PCIe adapter and a custom power plug that ties into the ATX PSU ($2 Molex plug vs. $100 8x power adapter).

 

[serpent]

wow this is very interesting! when I called adex to inquire about purchasing their adapter I was quickly put on hold and transfered to an Asian gentleman. He explained to me even tho they are listed on his website they are not for sale. He explained to me that his FEAR was that I or I guess any individual/company that wanted to buy this adapter was going to send it off to HK or China to be copied! All the convincing in the world could not get this man to budge! And I'll tell everyone I'm damn good at buying things wholesale and convincing companies that I am in the same industry as them, and I always amaze people when I open up accounts w/manufactures to buy baby furniture to salt water fish @ wholesale. This guy just wouldn't budge!!!
If someone would foward me the contact info to purchase this cable I have np in ordering one immeadiatly!

Serpent

ps....Since this is a "Rumor" site. I'll lay one on you. It comes from a very reliable source too. RUMOR has it that everyones mini graphics problem will be solved soon. I believe our wishes will soon be answered!

pps.....I don't need anyone sending me a couple of bucks to defray the cost of modding or purchasing the parts to do this. I do thank you turu for the gesture! I do it for enjoyment, a simple Thank You surfices with me!

 

[kaidomac]

wow this is very interesting! when I called adex to inquire about purchasing their adapter I was quickly put on hold and transfered to an Asian gentleman. He explained to me even tho they are listed on his website they are not for sale. He explained to me that his FEAR was that I or I guess any individual/company that wanted to buy this adapter was going to send it off to HK or China to be copied! All the convincing in the world could not get this man to budge! And I'll tell everyone I'm damn good at buying things wholesale and convincing companies that I am in the same industry as them, and I always amaze people when I open up accounts w/manufactures to buy baby furniture to salt water fish @ wholesale. This guy just wouldn't budge!!!
If someone would foward me the contact info to purchase this cable I have np in ordering one immeadiatly!

Serpent

I think Steve Jobs follows our postings and called that guy to tell him not to sell to us

 

[serpent]

I think Steve Jobs follows our postings and called that guy to tell him not to sell to us

Maybe when they transfered my call, the guy I was talking to was Steve Jobs!

sorry guys for the spam! I guess a few on my hundred and something posts here didn't count towards being able to post in the marketplace.

 

[toru173]

Stevie, would you please return my calls? I've been asking for a new cube for a few years now, but your answering machine always tells me you're on vacation.

 

[kaidomac]

Stevie, would you please return my calls? I've been asking for a new cube for a few years now, but your answering machine always tells me you're on vacation.

Oye, I miss my Cube, but that's the reason I got into Minis - it was $595 for the dual-core 1.5ghz PPC upgrade from Powerlogix and $599 for an Intel Mac Mini

 

[vga4life]

Idea to avoid power issues - some users have reported that certain PC 7800GT cards (notably from eVGA and PNY) work in the mac pro to drive secondary displays.

Since these cards take external ATX power, it may not be necessary to try and push extra juice over the PCIe bus.

Just a thought.