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tunerX

Suspended
Nov 5, 2009
355
839
You made the initial assertion. It's up to you to bring the proof and rub it in my face, showing me how wrong and ignorant I am.

Because from what I've read, I've seen nothing in the Net Neutrality rules that prevent an ISP from maintaining its own networks.



Ultimately, that's an academic distinction, because regardless of how it's done, it's end purpose is to provide bandwidth to ISPs, alleviating the strain on last mile networks. It also entirely ignores what have they've been doing with Cognent, Akami, Level3, and the rest, who's entire business is, obviously, peering.

It is not up to me to bring the proof, the proof is in the 322 page document that was released.

Also my comments are not an academic distinction... Your thinking is academic with your OV1 thinking while you do not understand how the actual Internet works.
 

2010mini

macrumors 601
Jun 19, 2013
4,698
4,806
Newsflash, Barack Obama is the worst President in U.S. history, has singlehandedly done more damage than good, and the country may take anywhere from 10-25 years to recover from his 8 years of corruption, if it can at all. At a point in history when so many things in this world are at crucial turning points, we have possibly gone into the dark ages of American Communism.

OMG this made me actually laugh out loud.

Thanks.... I needed a good laugh after a stressful day.
 

Renzatic

Suspended
It is not up to me to bring the proof, the proof is in the 322 page document that was released.

So read it. The actual rules and regulations only cover 5 pages of that 322 page document. The rest is Q&A.

The key words you should be looking for are "unreasonable" as in "unreasonably interfere with or unreasonably disadvantage".

It says nothing about providing free access to all data at all costs regardless of circumstances. They just have to have a good reason to throttle traffic. IE extreme congestion and whatnot. They can continue to maintain their network as they always have, which is considered "reasonable".

Look at page 3, for the title "reasonable network management". "Reasonable". "Reasonable".
 

ThisIsNotMe

Suspended
Aug 11, 2008
1,849
1,062
The reason it won't happen is because they won't be able to regulate content.

Because China isn't regulating content for 3x the population of the Untied States already. LOL.

Look, you want to be the typical naive millennial/hipster that is ok. That is your prerogative.
 

tunerX

Suspended
Nov 5, 2009
355
839
So read it. The actual rules and regulations only cover 5 pages of that 322 page document. The rest is Q&A.

The key words you should be looking for are "unreasonable" as in "unreasonably interfere with or unreasonably disadvantage".

It says nothing about providing free access to all data at all costs regardless of circumstances. They just have to have a good reason to throttle traffic. IE extreme congestion and whatnot. They can continue to maintain their network as they always have, which is considered "reasonable".

Wow I never said free access to "ALL" data at "ALL" costs. It is equal access.

While your link is not the actual document I read.

Screen Shot 2015-02-26 at 9.10.44 PM.png

Read those...

Hilarious... Bright line... Did you not read the Bright line.

I have to edit this... I am still laughing. You argued without reading or understanding Bright Line. Consumer data is garbage data. Everyone gets the same treatment. If the link is full ALL consumer traffic suffers and only the network control traffic can be prioritized.
 
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a0me

macrumors 65816
Oct 5, 2006
1,074
166
Tokyo, Japan
Net Neutrality is used as a power grab. This does not help us as consumers. It hurts us. Just another way for the current administration to tell you what to do and what's in your best interest. This is just step one.
Net Neutrality is pro-consumer, not sure how it hurts you more than the alternative.
Unless, of course, you're Comcast.
 

2010mini

macrumors 601
Jun 19, 2013
4,698
4,806
Good but not good enough. What should've happen was voiding all exclusive deals ISPs have on all the poles in municipalities around the country.

This would mean Google or anyone else would get the same access to run lines of their own.
 

Renzatic

Suspended
Wow I never said free access to "ALL" data at "ALL" costs. It is equal access.

While your link is not the actual document I read.

View attachment 531894

Read those...

Hilarious... Bright line... Did you not read the Bright line.

UNDER NORMAL USAGE SCENARIOS!

Extraordinary circumstances still allow for throttling under "reasonable" circumstances. Or in other words, they're still allowed to throttle data if in order to maintain the integrity of the entire network. How many goddamn times do I have to repeat myself before it's hammered into your head? Hell, I even pointed out exactly where the paper allows for exceptions, but still you go on.

At this point, I think you're arguing just because you don't want to be wrong, not because you have a point.
 

tunerX

Suspended
Nov 5, 2009
355
839
UNDER NORMAL USAGE SCENARIOS!

Extraordinary circumstances still allow for throttling under "reasonable" circumstances. Or in other words, they're still allowed to throttle data if in order to maintain the integrity of the entire network. How many goddamn times do I have to repeat myself before it's hammered into your head? Hell, I even pointed out exactly where the paper allows for exceptions, but still you go on.

At this point, I think you're arguing just because you don't want to be wrong, not because you have a point.

A full consumer pipe from a content provider to a content consumer is regular traffic that is covered under bright line. If the traffic will degrade the ISP infrastructure then it can be eliminated from the network. The ISP infrastructure is not included in any consumer usage whether you are a consumer or provider of the content... Hence my original post; everyone gets garbage when a link is full.

You have absolutely no understanding of the FCC regulation or technology.
 

Z400Racer37

macrumors 6502a
Feb 7, 2011
711
1,664
Actually, this is one area that needs regulating. We need to stop cable companies from throttling Netflix and similar services that compete with their other services. And, yes that has been happening.

BS. Not all data is equal. If Netflix one tire been with speeds, then they need to pay for it, and deploy their own CDN. Cable companies have every right to throttle Netflix, or denied and service completely if they want to. But on the infrastructure. Not you. Not the government.

Property rights first. The illusion of your right the bandwith last.
 

td1439

macrumors 6502
Sep 29, 2012
337
115
Boston-ish
Now I'm the one who has had the good laugh. Calling Obama a full on capitalist is like calling ISIS a humanitarian organization.

Really? That's why he supports the TPP and corporate welfare for Pearson via Race to the Top (which is just NCLB renamed). He's Bush 2.0 and yet another corporatist neocon, just like the two candidates from the Republicrat party we'll get next year.
 

Renzatic

Suspended
BS. Not all data is equal. If Netflix one tire been with speeds, then they need to pay for it, and deploy their own CDN. Cable companies have every right to throttle Netflix, or denied and service completely if they want to. But on the infrastructure. Not you. Not the government.

Property rights first. The illusion of your right the bandwith last.

They did just that. Comcast ignored it, and demanded payment for access to their customers under the guise that it was causing network congestion.

And what you're basically saying is that the people who act as the gateway to this huge, free speech loving, free market equivalent thing we call the internet are more important than the internet itself, right?
 

dsnort

macrumors 68000
Jan 28, 2006
1,904
68
In persona non grata
"Google, Free Press and New America’s Open Technology Institute last week asked the commission to revise language they said could unintentionally allow Internet service providers to charge websites for sending content to consumers. Such a scenario could open the door to an avalanche of new fees for Web companies and threaten their business models."

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/...heeler-net-neutrality-plan-google-115502.html

Soooooo, while the language of the rules was kept hidden from very one else until after the vote, Google and others knew enough to ask for revisions. Hmmm, transparency for thee, but not for me.

Good thing Google isn't evil or trying to take over the world or anything.
 

Renzatic

Suspended
A full consumer pipe from a content provider to a content consumer is regular traffic that is covered under bright line. If the traffic will degrade the ISP infrastructure then it can be eliminated from the network. The ISP infrastructure is not included in any consumer usage whether you are a consumer or provider of the content... Hence my original post; everyone gets garbage when a link is full.

You have absolutely no understanding of the FCC regulation or technology.

No, you see. I can read. And I know how this is all going to end up because...get this...I've seen it in action. We all have. It's the way things are now. None of the rules in that paper change anything in the way the internet has always been. They only finally carve into stone that gateway internet providers cannot mess with 3rd party data streams that pass over their network for their own personal gain. All data has to pass through untouched unless there's good reason to touch it. This is the way the internet has worked since it became a thing.

This is no different than the way things were 4 years ago, the way things were yesterday, or the way things are at this very moment. The only reason we now have a law stating as much is because our larger ISPs started messing with what's long since been proven to be a good thing.
 

samiwas

macrumors 68000
Aug 26, 2006
1,598
3,579
Atlanta, GA
I'm seriously beginning to wonder about mental health in this country after reading this thread. There are some crazy-ass people up in here.

I have to wonder if these people spend most of their time as paranoid as they appear on here, or if it's just their internet persona.

No, the government cannot regulate content on the internet?

Like it doesn't on radio or television.

You must be crack-baby high to think that content regulations and additional taxes are not on their way. After all, that is what progressives do.

Are your phone calls regulated with what you're allowed to say?

Remember, the progressive (like Obama) would like nothing more (and have tried) to bring back the 'fairness doctrine' which is the definition of regulation of free speech.

Can you source this outside of extreme right-wing sources? Because I found plenty of those.


The Internet should remain as is and adding government regulation keeps it that way? When did adding regulation ever keep the status quo?

Well, that's kind of the point. ISPs want to change how the internet is, by using their position to charge websites for access.

How would you like it if Apple used their position with the iPhone and charged companies in order for the iPhone to load their sites, or for you to be able to call certain businesses?

The internet has never had this type of government regulation and since its inception companies have paid to move content across it.

Fairly laughable that people have been brainwashed to think they are rescuing something that never existed. Then again what else should i expect from the millennial generation.

So, do we need to wait until something happens until we regulate against it happening? Much harder to do at that point. Have ISPs not been working towards a setup where they will only allow certain websites if those sites pay up?



Essentially, people here are DEMANDING that private companies be allowed to censor the data that you think you paid to receive. And what's even weirder, is that these ar the so-called freedom patriots of the board.
 

unplugme71

macrumors 68030
May 20, 2011
2,827
754
Earth
The Internet should remain as is and adding government regulation keeps it that way? When did adding regulation ever keep the status quo?

I didn't say the government should control it. I said the internet should remain the way it was. What is wrong with people these days reading things differently and making outlandish comments to post their 2 cents.
 

unplugme71

macrumors 68030
May 20, 2011
2,827
754
Earth
There's nothing like a good old roof antenna. I don't have to pay to watch the commercials like everyone with cable does.

Huh? You don't pay for commercials? So you don't drink Pepsi/Coke? You don't buy vehicles from any of the dozen car manufacturers? You don't have car insurance?

Everything you buy pays towards marketing dollars.
 

moderately

macrumors 6502
Sep 7, 2010
323
20
Put it this way: Comcast owns NBC Universal and its programming. So when you're streaming Parks and Recreation reruns on Hulu, complete with advertising, they're making money from you. They're not going to do anything to hinder your Hulu streaming experience.

You watch one episode, get bored, and decide to start browsing MacRumors. Comcast has no stake in MR and makes no money off of it. Without Net Neutrality, they could slow down access to MR to the point where you're like "Damn, this site is completely unusable. I guess it's back to watching Parks and Rec" - unless you pay more for unrestricted access to sites. Or if MacRumors paid a ransom to Comcast to unrestrict their site for all Comcast customers.

No NN would almost allow them to set up speed tiers for different sites: You would get 50 MBPS for Hulu and anything else that makes Comcast money. 25 MBPS for Netflix because Netflix paid a ransom to Comcast. 10 MBPS for Twitter because Twitter also paid a ransom (but not as big as what Netflix paid). 5 MBPS for almost everything else. 3 MBPS for Amazon because Amazon told Comcast to take their ransom request and shove it up their arse, which angered Comcast, 1 MBPS for Skype because it competes with Comcast's landline services, and dial up speeds for AT&T and Verizon's site because they don't want you checking out the competition's pricing.

Nicely said.
 

avanpelt

macrumors 68030
Jun 2, 2010
2,956
3,877
There is competition in the automobile industry. Why doesn't a Bugatti Veyron cost $10,000?

You must really like that car...you keep referencing it. The reality is that there are several cities in this country where 1,000 Mbps up and down Internet connections can be had for less than $100.

The example I gave earlier is Chattanooga, TN, where a gigabit residential connection costs $70/month through the local electric utility. Guess what? Comcast wants out of the Chattanooga market. Surprise, surprise. They want to hand the Chattanooga market over to Charter as part of the Comcast/TWC deal.

While I have no hard numbers to back up my suspicions, it makes logical sense that Comcast has been hemorrhaging subscribers in Chattanooga like crazy. Would you rather pay Comcast $100/month for 105 Mbps down and 20 Mbps up or would you rather pay the local electric company $70/month for 1,000 Mbps down and 1,000 Mbps up? Doesn't seem like a very tough decision to me.

In this case, it sure seems that since Comcast is now being forced to compete solely on price for the same commodity, they're not even bothering to compete and they're simply trying to pack up and leave Chattanooga.

Plus, it's not like Comcast can justify charging a higher price for their internet service because of their outstanding customer support. ***** Brown and Super B Bauer can tell us all about the outstanding Comcast support team.
 

capathy21

macrumors 65816
Jun 16, 2014
1,418
617
Houston, Texas
Newsflash, Barack Obama is the worst President in U.S. history, has singlehandedly done more damage than good, and the country may take anywhere from 10-25 years to recover from his 8 years of corruption, if it can at all. At a point in history when so many things in this world are at crucial turning points, we have possibly gone into the dark ages of American Communism.

When you quoted Forbes I was going to call it for the right wing nonsense it is but then you went ahead and dropped the "c" word so I didn't bother. Your hatred of Barry is behind your opinion on this net neutrality issue.
 

timshundo

macrumors regular
Jun 17, 2009
211
183
San Francisco, CA
You didn't link to the article. I know which one you're talking about and why you didn't link it it: It's one man's opinion and it's extremely misguided and misinformed.

I'm gonna trust the people that have been creating and protecting the internet for decades than one "all government is bad" fear monger.

One example from Forbes:

President Barack Obama took the time this week to pressure the Federal Communication Commission (a technically independent government agency) to issue a set of net neutrality rules that he favors. Many others with a vested interest in equal internet access for all are also joining in the game of lobbying the FCC for their preferred solution. However, all the noise and poor analogies being used cannot make the proposed net neutrality rules a good idea. Rather, it is just another attempt at government control and enforced equality in a realm where that makes little sense.

Net neutrality seems like a simple concept: the company that links your computer/tablet/smartphone to the internet should not be able to discriminate among users and providers in the level of connectivity service provided. That is, we should all be able to send and receive the same number of bits of data per second.

This is a bad idea for the same reason that only having vanilla ice cream for sale is a bad idea: some people want, and are willing to pay for, something different. Forcing a one-size-fits-all solution on the Internet stifles innovation by blocking some companies from turning new ideas or business models into successful products.

President Obama was quoted in his statement as saying that “We cannot allow Internet service providers (ISPs) to restrict the best access or to pick winners and losers in the online marketplace for services and ideas.” Yet, oddly enough, President Obama is happy to pick winners and losers in the marketplace for energy services and ideas where he is working hard to make offshore drilling, coal, and shale oil losers while attempting to turn solar, wind, and other renewables into winners. He has similarly interfered in the auto market, both by spending billions to avoid Chrysler and GM from becoming losers and by forcing auto manufacturers to meet gas mileage standards which eliminate many possible car choices from the marketplace.

The last thing we should want is President Obama or a government agency picking winners and losers on the Internet. And enforcing net neutrality is picking winners and losers even if it looks like it is just “leveling the playing field.” He may think it is not, but it completely blocks certain business models and stops any possible innovation that might emerge if given the option of seeking differential access to bandwidth.

The key point that President Obama has missed along with all the rabid supporters of net neutrality is that ISPs and the companies that control the Internet backbone infrastructure that knits everything together do not have the power to pick winners and losers either. Consumers decide what products and services are successful because we adopt them. If an ISP blocks Netflix NFLX +0.97% because of the bandwidth it requires, consumers who want Netflix will take their business elsewhere. If enough people do so, the ISP will have to change policies or go out of business.

As the former chief economist for the FCC, Thomas Hazlett, pointed out this week in Time, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter TWTR +1.77%, LinkedIn LNKD +0.65% (and many, many more success stories of innovation) all emerged without the benefit of net neutrality. In the time when the government might have been ensuring a level playing field for the Internet pipe into our homes, smartphones and mobile devices completely changed how most people connect to and use the Internet.

The problem with government regulation of the Internet is that by the time the government studies how it works and what is needed, technology has moved on. Who believes that the government can write a regulation that will still fit the bill in three years when none of us know what the dominant formats, companies, and technology will be that far in advance? Given that the FCC has been proposing net neutrality rules for a decade with little success, why would we expect a change anytime soon?

Also, we need to stop the poor analogies about net neutrality. Neil Irwin, in The New York Times, says it is like deciding whether Internet connections should be like electricity or cable television. His idea is that we all get the same electric service (net neutrality), but can pay for different levels of cable tv. Yet, in many places people pay for different electric service. In California (and other places), customers can get a lower rate if they agree to let the electric utility turn off their air conditioner during peak usage hours.
 

tunerX

Suspended
Nov 5, 2009
355
839
No, you see. I can read. And I know how this is all going to end up because...get this...I've seen it in action. We all have. It's the way things are now. None of the rules in that paper change anything in the way the internet has always been. They only finally carve into stone that gateway internet providers cannot mess with 3rd party data streams that pass over their network for their own personal gain. All data has to pass through untouched unless there's good reason to touch it. This is the way the internet has worked since it became a thing.

This is no different than the way things were 4 years ago, the way things were yesterday, or the way things are at this very moment. The only reason we now have a law stating as much is because our larger ISPs started messing with what's long since been proven to be a good thing.

Wow, you are lost. You still do not understand. With this ruling an ISP will not have the ability to sell dedicated managed services to small and large businesses who want guaranteed bandwidth between their campuses and branches, unless they buy dedicated leased line services. The price of business for large and small companies just went higher because now they have to pay for leased line services instead of QoS treatment within a service provider network.
 
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