Former Apple Executives Address Working Conditions in Suppliers' Factories

[Slovak]

Don't know if you 2 are from America but, wow!, such a disparaging view of American workers while extolling the virtues of Chinese workers. Makes me wonder if you ever read the rest of these forums about the crappy job of performing a simple task like applying thermal paste is being done by these highly skilled, diligent Chinese workers, ha.

As you both pointed out, these workers came straight out of poverty, I wonder how they became so 'skilled'; was it some genetic trait with which they were born? You are both insinuating that American workers are incapable of learning the same tasks that the Chinese did?

If America does not bring back some of the jobs we are out-sourcing, what will happen to the country? Factory jobs have been going out of the country for years, textiles, clothing, IT jobs; what will be left? Folks who don't go into medical fields (which need to be performed locally) can go into the food service industry (also needs to be performed locally).

What a legacy we are leaving for our future.....

I am not extolling the virtues of the Chinese workers or disparaging the American ones. The market has done that for me already.

Am I from America? Well, define it. What is being "American"? As in living on the American continent (i.e. Peru)? As in being born in the US? As in working in the US?

Here's globalization 101. There are no American jobs. Or Chinese jobs. There are jobs, some of which happen to be performed in China, and others in America. Just like no product is really American. Many people still pound their chest for driving American Chevy that's made in Mexico. But sneer at the Toyota or Honda made in the US. Which car is more American? Harley is another good example - take away all the foreign components (ignition/electronics from Japan, fuel system from Germany, tires from Asia, etc) and see how far down the driveway you get.

Show me a product that's REALLY American. Perhaps some obscure mom and pop place makes one. Is it made from all ingredients sourced in the US? With US machinery? Are they working in a building that's all made from US materials? The computers that business runs along with the software on those - all made and programmed in the US?If you took away non-US made products from those businesses, they'd be pretty much sitting in an open field empty handed.

I've taught business courses at universities in the US and abroad. In many countries, kids coming out of high school have more technical and real-life knowledge they can apply at their job than US graduates with a bachelor's degree. So I am not insinuating that American workers are incapable - they just haven't had the incentives to put their nose to the grind stone.

The sooner people in the US start realizing that the world has moved forward and in many instances surpassed them (regardless of what the media-tainment or politicians feed you), the sooner the US stands a chance to remain a significant player on the global political and economical stage.

You speak of legacy for our future - less than 50% of US citizens have a passport. Of those that do, take away the ones that only visited Mexico and/or Canada. Now we're probably at 20% of the US population. You want legacy? Go travel beyond the Cancun beaches and live with the local people. Work with them side-by-side. Eat dinner with their family. Understanding of global economy doesn't come from sitting at an Asian-made computer, in Asian-made clothes, with Asian-made coffee cup - and polemicizing about what a corporation should do halfway around the world when most people on this forum haven't spent more than a few weeks of their life vacationing at a resort outside of the US.

To be clear - US is a great country, a great place, with great people. And so are many other places in the world, which have become your immediate neighbors thanks to globalization. Resisting it will only leave the US further behind. The only way forward is to embrace it.

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The U.S. has a serious educational problem for a huge fraction of its population.

Putting some perspective to that: Dallas ISD has a 47% high-school graduation rate.

That's not a problem with language, kids, parents - it's a systemic problem. Especially when you realize that high schools in the US are virtually just baby-sitting arrangements. How many of the remaining 53% students that actually graduate are really prepared to enter the workforce?

 

[RedRaven571]

Here's globalization 101. There are no American jobs. Or Chinese jobs. There are jobs, some of which happen to be performed in China, and others in America. Just like no product is really American. Many people still pound their chest for driving American Chevy that's made in Mexico. But sneer at the Toyota or Honda made in the US. Which car is more American? Harley is another good example - take away all the foreign components (ignition/electronics from Japan, fuel system from Germany, tires from Asia, etc) and see how far down the driveway you get.

Thanks, I also read "The World Is Flat". Globalization is a fine concept until you look around you and realize "Hey! There's no jobs here for my sons/daughters." The only reason the Chinese/Indian/Mexican/Vietnamese/Korean/African workers have jobs producing goods is because the US is a huge nation of consumers; that would be the fly in the Chardonnay of globalization, if there's no jobs here, where does the money come from to buy all those lovely toys? And since the Chinese/Indian/Mexican/Vietnamese/Korean/African workers make 20 cents an hour, it will be a rather long time until they become consumers of the goods they produce themselves. So, ultimately, globalization only benefits big multinationals like Apple/HP/Merck/Proctor & Gamble, their stockholders, and CEOs while effectively screwing both the Chinese/Indian/Mexican/Vietnamese/Korean/African workers who are living/working in hellish conditions for 20 cents an hour AND the US workers who no longer have jobs.

Not sure what all the passport/travel stuff was about but, without jobs, I don't think US citizens will be zipping off to more exotic locations (i.e. - not Canada or Mexico) more frequently.

I reiterate, I will never contest that there are lots and lots of lazy, entitled US folks; or that the education system in the US has grown abysmally bad in the last 40 years. What I do not agree to is that ALL US workers are lazy and incapable of adapting to new tasks. The Empire State Building in NYC (102 stories) was built in less than 18 months in 1930; that is what US workers can do, if we remember our roots and work ethic.

 

[Amazing Iceman]

Actually you're wrong. Other companies with less influence than Apple dictate terms in which they will do business and if Foxconn wants greater profits, then they have to adhere to certain requirements.

Business is two (sometimes more) sides. Both parties benefit.

and P.S. Apple already DOES dictate terms. They just aren't enforcing them as much as they could.

The terms that can be dictated are more focused towards production quantity, timing, quality, pricing, etc.
True, both parties benefit from reaching an agreement. But it's just an agreement, not a marriage. Both parties don't 'live' together. All they are obligated is to pay and supply.

Just like almost any salesmen out there, they may agree to do things in certain way, but behind closed doors, they would still do it their way.

What you said above is how things should in theory work in a perfect world; but we don't live in a perfect world.

 

[Slovak]

Thanks, I also read "The World Is Flat". Globalization is a fine concept until you look around you and realize "Hey! There's no jobs here for my sons/daughters." The only reason the Chinese/Indian/Mexican/Vietnamese/Korean/African workers have jobs producing goods is because the US is a huge nation of consumers; that would be the fly in the Chardonnay of globalization, if there's no jobs here, where does the money come from to buy all those lovely toys? And since the Chinese/Indian/Mexican/Vietnamese/Korean/African workers make 20 cents an hour, it will be a rather long time until they become consumers of the goods they produce themselves. So, ultimately, globalization only benefits big multinationals like Apple/HP/Merck/Proctor & Gamble, their stockholders, and CEOs while effectively screwing both the Chinese/Indian/Mexican/Vietnamese/Korean/African workers who are living/working in hellish conditions for 20 cents an hour AND the US workers who no longer have jobs.

Not sure what all the passport/travel stuff was about but, without jobs, I don't think US citizens will be zipping off to more exotic locations (i.e. - not Canada or Mexico) more frequently.

I reiterate, I will never contest that there are lots and lots of lazy, entitled US folks; or that the education system in the US has grown abysmally bad in the last 40 years. What I do not agree to is that ALL US workers are lazy and incapable of adapting to new tasks. The Empire State Building in NYC (102 stories) was built in less than 18 months in 1930; that is what US workers can do, if we remember our roots and work ethic.

Can't have your cake and eat it too. Consumers vote with their wallets, and they want cheap products. That means the manufacturers go where the labor is cheap, taking those well-paid jobs from your sons/daughters. Consumers want to pay 99 cents, not $9.99.

You are absolutely correct that US is the nation of consumers. And that consumption comes from the $$ the US owes to China. If you go back and look where Secretary of State Hillary Clinton went as her first trip within days of being in her position, you'll see it was in the midst of the financial crisis fiasco - and she headed to China!! That's not a coincidences. China has the cheap labor to keep producing goods for "American" companies, and they also hold $2 trillion of US cash and debt. Translation - they're just waiting for the sale to go shopping for strategic assets in the US. It's already happening in Europe. Roads, ports, infrastructure - all being "invested in" by Chinese government.

China, and many other countries are dramatically improving their standard of living - probably faster than at any point in history. Rising standards + the sheer amount of consumers = all companies clamoring for a piece of the pie. Incidentally, where is the #1 place to sell Oldsmobiles? China. Premier luxury brand.

Passport / travel comments had one simple purpose. Encouraging everyone to get out from behind their computer screen making comments about countries and conditions they merely read about from reports or see 30-second shots on the nightly "news". Travel is the best education one can get, and it has nothing to do with how much you make (or spend on traveling) or going to exotic locations.

The Empire State Building in NYC may have been built in 18 months - as you point out -- over 80 years ago!! That's the problem with the US mindset - living off the past. None of the people that worked on that job are around today, and vast majority of their heirs wouldn't be able to pull that off.

China, and many places in Asia are still perceived as bunch of old ladies bent over in a rice field day after day by many in the western world. On the contrary, take a look at China building a 30-story building in 15 days. 360 hours! That's not 80 or 25 years ago - that's today!

 

[samcraig]

What you said above is how things should in theory work in a perfect world; but we don't live in a perfect world.

Wait. What? How come I didn't get the memo?!

 

[Amazing Iceman]

Wait. What? How come I didn't get the memo?!

Hahahah!!!

You were on vacation.

 

[mutantteenager]

To all those wanting the jobs to come to America, you cost too much. Apple and the many companies like Apple who have chosen to manufacture where labour is cheap and unregulated - unsurprisingly, they are driven by the profit motive.

If we accept that, and the fact that Apple clearly make a decent profit on those products, and finally the fact that they extol the virtue of caring about the conditions of the people in the outsourced factory - why are conditions so bad?

Why? Because companies like and including Apple are very good at marketing their warm fuzzy nature, using words like 'sustainability' and 'responsibility' to make you feel good about that piece of consumer electronics which you won't care about when the new one comes out.

Once you're sold on that, well they'll just keep the costs low (using whatever means possible), squeeze their suppliers and rake in the cash. It's called capitalism.

 

[ruftytufty]

I suggest anyone interested in why so many manufacturing jobs have gone to China read this article from the NY Times (from about a week ago).

Very good article, and way more than I can summarize here, but it's clear that it's more than just about cheap labor. The supply chain there is much more flexible and quick to react. Also, there's a much bigger supply of engineers of all sorts, from those who can redesign a part for you, to those who can set up a manufacturing line for it, to those who can set up and maintain manufacturing lines for iPhones/etc. One quote from that article:

Another critical advantage for Apple was that China provided engineers at a scale the United States could not match. Apple’s executives had estimated that about 8,700 industrial engineers were needed to oversee and guide the 200,000 assembly-line workers eventually involved in manufacturing iPhones. The company’s analysts had forecast it would take as long as nine months to find that many qualified engineers in the United States.

Here, by "scale" they mean the quantity of engineers, though certainly the fact that they get paid less than in the U.S. is also a factor. But, this is a theme I see repeatedly - the U.S. simply isn't turning out trained technical people at nearly the level we need.

There simply is no priority for education here anymore. We keep cutting education funding in the name of lower taxes, while most of Europe places a much higher value on education, and China and India are turning out skilled engineers and other technical people in droves.

 

[linuxcooldude]

To all those wanting the jobs to come to America, you cost too much. Apple and the many companies like Apple who have chosen to manufacture where labour is cheap and unregulated - unsurprisingly, they are driven by the profit motive.

Expanding on what ruftytufty just said, it has to do with a lot more then just cheap labour.

The USA simply cannot sustain the sheer volume, the scalability and the flexibility like China can. Also the lack of trained engineers as was mentioned.

The ability to setup new shops, modify parts, implement new changes can be often done within days or even hours. Where in the USA could take weeks or months.

Most parts for these products are already in China, so no need to ship them to America which adds to the cost, which would also increase the waiting time before assembly.

We are not the industrialized nation as we once were and as China is right now with the manpower needed to put out a high volume of products for a growing demand.

 

[Abazigal]

I guess it is becoming a sad reality. People argue for jobs to be brought back to American soil, but have they asked themselves, what exactly are they doing on their part to make themselves more marketable?

There is a reason why GM went bankrupt - high wages (relative to what they were doing anyways, even as you argue that it may be necessary to support the high standard of living in the US) coupled with an inflexible union just made employing them unsustainable.

Likewise, if prices do increase as a result of higher labour costs, then sales would fall. Ask yourself, what is the logic of making products nobody wants just for the sake of keeping people employed? You are really just throwing money into the sea!

 

[Negritude]

The most important quotes from the article:

"There is a genuine, companywide commitment to the code of conduct. But taking it to the next level and creating real change conflicts with secrecy and business goals, and so there’s only so far we can go."

"You can set all the rules you want, but they’re meaningless if you don’t give suppliers enough profit to treat workers well. If you squeeze margins, you’re forcing them to cut safety."

In other words, Apple's success at keeping most things about their company a secret, along with their efficiency at cutting supply costs, is inherently in conflict with worker safety, no matter how well-intentioned Apple execs may be.

 

[Michaelgtrusa]

Can't have your cake and eat it too. Consumers vote with their wallets, and they want cheap products. That means the manufacturers go where the labor is cheap, taking those well-paid jobs from your sons/daughters. Consumers want to pay 99 cents, not $9.99.

You are absolutely correct that US is the nation of consumers. And that consumption comes from the $$ the US owes to China. If you go back and look where Secretary of State Hillary Clinton went as her first trip within days of being in her position, you'll see it was in the midst of the financial crisis fiasco - and she headed to China!! That's not a coincidences. China has the cheap labor to keep producing goods for "American" companies, and they also hold $2 trillion of US cash and debt. Translation - they're just waiting for the sale to go shopping for strategic assets in the US. It's already happening in Europe. Roads, ports, infrastructure - all being "invested in" by Chinese government.

China, and many other countries are dramatically improving their standard of living - probably faster than at any point in history. Rising standards + the sheer amount of consumers = all companies clamoring for a piece of the pie. Incidentally, where is the #1 place to sell Oldsmobiles? China. Premier luxury brand.

Passport / travel comments had one simple purpose. Encouraging everyone to get out from behind their computer screen making comments about countries and conditions they merely read about from reports or see 30-second shots on the nightly "news". Travel is the best education one can get, and it has nothing to do with how much you make (or spend on traveling) or going to exotic locations.

The Empire State Building in NYC may have been built in 18 months - as you point out -- over 80 years ago!! That's the problem with the US mindset - living off the past. None of the people that worked on that job are around today, and vast majority of their heirs wouldn't be able to pull that off.

China, and many places in Asia are still perceived as bunch of old ladies bent over in a rice field day after day by many in the western world. On the contrary, take a look at China building a 30-story building in 15 days. 360 hours! That's not 80 or 25 years ago - that's today!

If it were not for the US china would have nothing!!! What about you?! China is a bigger ponzi sceme than wall street. It we bring back our jobs and take away the license agreements then what? War? I'm for that to protect what is ours!!!

The west industrialized chins with a agreement in the 70's leb by the US, they would have nothing with out us!!!!!

 

[Slovak]

If it were not for the US china would have nothing!!! What about you?! China is a bigger ponzi sceme than wall street. It we bring back our jobs and take away the license agreements then what? War? I'm for that to protect what is ours!!!

The west industrialized chins with a agreement in the 70's leb by the US, they would have nothing with out us!!!!!

I wouldn't recommend for any nation to start a war with China. The US may declare wars as won, sometimes even the same one won multiple times, ahem. But, more practically - how would the US finance such a war? By borrowing from... China? China already holds $2 trillion USD - they have already won the war.

You can plug your ears, close your eyes, scream, pound your chest, or claim China got to where they are because of the US. Nice. Good for you. Still doesn't change anything about the current reality.

 

[linuxcooldude]

"You can set all the rules you want, but they’re meaningless if you don’t give suppliers enough profit to treat workers well. If you squeeze margins, you’re forcing them to cut safety."

But its often these suppliers who tell these manufactures they can do it at a lower price just to get the contract.

From another New York Times Article:

The Chinese government had agreed to underwrite costs for numerous industries, and those subsidies had trickled down to the glass-cutting factory. It had a warehouse filled with glass samples available to Apple, free of charge. The owners made engineers available at almost no cost.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/b...-squeezed-middle-class.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

The Chinese are doing some cost cutting on their own.

 

[faroZ06]

I despise when people say such ridiculous things. Sometimes you can only speak freely and openly once you have left, especially after your NDA expires.

Now, on to something that won't be popular here. There will be plenty of posts that say this is a worldwide problem, not just an Apple problem-- and they'd be right. However, news like this sheds light on corporate responsibility being more of a marketing term than a way of doing business. As a company currently sitting with $97.6 BILLION dollars in CASH ON HAND, they should dramatically improve the working conditions and lives of people who make their products, not have an attitude of "well everyone else does it." While their position is popular on this forum, it's not right. Life is not all about money, it's about the health and well being of yourself, your family, and hopefully (if even to a lesser extent), your fellow man. I would pay more money for an iPod or Mac if they had decent wages and living conditions that didn't encourage worker suicides. Spare me the "I don't have more money to shell out." If you are really that bad off, then quit wasting your money on consumer electronics that you can't afford.

That's not how it works. If Apple started producing stuff in other countries, the cost would be so much higher that they'd lose profits, and more importantly, popularity. You don't base your techniques on how much cash you have piled up.

I agree that Americans waste too much money on stuff then whine about being in debt.

 

[gnasher729]

Some of the workers work more overtime than what even Chinese labor standards allow, often against their will and under the threat of termination. That is a direct result of Apple's (and partially, the consumer's) demand for iDevices.

Some of the people in the US software industry work more overtime than what even Chinese labor standards allow, often against their will and under the threat of termination. And parts of the US government actually want to remove overtime payments for IT workers.

 

[Abazigal]

If it were not for the US china would have nothing!!! What about you?! China is a bigger ponzi sceme than wall street. It we bring back our jobs and take away the license agreements then what? War? I'm for that to protect what is ours!!!

The west industrialized chins with a agreement in the 70's leb by the US, they would have nothing with out us!!!!!

Then everybody loses; it's just an issue of who loses more.

 

[Michaelgtrusa]

Then everybody loses; it's just an issue of who loses more.

The hard working mistreated people in china would lose more if....

 

[immunezone]

Yeah sure

Like this is true? Give me a break people, do you actually believe this to be true.

My friend Deepak works there and he said they are treated so so well.

This is either fake news or just a plain lie.

What is wrong with you news go getters, making up much stuff lately??

Get it?

 

[Abazigal]

The hard working mistreated people in china would lose more if....

The fall in demand for china made products led to more people being retrenched, as factories cut back on production. They are working there for a reason, because good-paying jobs really are that scarce in some parts of China. They need the job, as the alternative is starving/begging on the streets. Nobody is putting a gun to their head and forcing them to work there. The low pay is also partly because supply of workers far outstrip demand, and it is really a repetitive, no-brainer job that requires little in skills or expertise. Why pay one worker more, when there are easily 100 other people out there more than willing to work for the same wage?

Meanwhile, the US simply relocates to another country with cheap labour, like Vietnam. Minimum wages have been rising in China of late anyways, what with the renewed focus on human rights issues and all.

Face it, jobs are never coming back to the US, because Americans are just too expensive to be hired doing these sort of "menial labour". Even if they did, bosses would rely heavily on automation to work around high labour costs. Either way, much fewer people are going to be employed than you would hope.

 

[bgarn]

Big lie

The thing is no body expects Apple to solve the worlds problem but they have spinner this BS about China being the only place that can supply the skilled labor. A quote from a Apple exec states that they needed 8,500 engineers and we just don't train enough in this country. We probably don't but we train more than in China and they are better skilled. In 2006 we graduated 140,000 electrical engineers. In China they have gone from 4800 technical schools to 2800 and had a 24% reduction in teachers.Sounds a lot like funny math.
The big kick in the groin is that the iPad3 will be made in Brazil. What happened to China was the only place to get enough skilled workers . $12.00 a week is what the laborers are earning working 12 hours a day 6 days a week.

I say this typing on my tablet and I love it, but Apple needs to be honest and at least admit it is partially about the money.

 

[divinox]

This sounds like the old movie cliche', "I'm sorry I had to do this" while they continue to kick/punch/abuse someone to get what they want.

The sad truth is that we want cheaper products so they use countries with lower wages and worse working/living environments. If we'd all accept a 300% jump in the cost of electronics we could manufacturer everything locally.

Or accept a 2% jump, demanding it'll go towards bettering work conditions from those who currently suffer. Just saying...

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"the company finds itself struggling to deal with the human factor that has become increasingly visible..."

what a horrible euphemism. The "human factor." please. Call it what it is: Extremes of worker abuse and cruelty leading to absolutely preventable explosions, and a rash of suicides.

Anybody who read that entire article will think of dickens's industrial revolution england, not of steve jobs's glib idealism and 21st-century tech-enabled fairytales.

If apple can completely transform five major industries and sit on $80+ billion in cash while having an unprecedentedly blockbuster quarter, they sure as hell can transform the ethics of their supply chain. Hell, they can transform the us economy by doing the right thing, and starting to build factories again in the u.s.

And/or use their leverage to really make a difference in china, since clearly foxconn and the other suppliers there have the government in their pocket.

And i don't want to hear about how all tech companies "have to do this." that is just bs. Apple reserves for itself every exception it chooses to. If foxconn or any other supplier were screwing up a single tiny part on a single tiny device, apple would be all over them to fix it... Yesterday. If they wanted to do this, really do this right, they would be doing it... Rather than hiring some pr people and conflict-of-interested outside firms to try to make the scrutiny go away.

Apple is responsible, through incredibly aggressive price controls and obsession with secrecy, for forcing their suppliers to force their workers to produce ever more and ever more quickly, safety and health and basic human consideration be damned.

Al gore: Where are you when we need you? As an apple director, you are fiduciarily - and morally - responsible.

qft

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I’ll want to see hard evidence that the four-year habit mentioned has changed (if true—and I have no problem believing it). The mechanisms are in place where it could change... now, has it? That’s what we will need to see. For Apple, and for all the others who get less publicity as well.

I’d like to see two labels of electronics from every maker, and two lines of chocolate/coffee, and clothes, and household items, etc. etc.; you could pay more for the badge on the package that says “Low slavery!” (speaking of chocolate for instance) or “20% fewer child laborers!” Two identical products from the same company, and now you get to choose. The company of course should match your extra outlay with their own! Nobody would do this, but I’d like to see the statement made...

Its always been an idea of mine to start pushing a clothes line where significant part of the revenue would go towards the workers. Im dead sure there would be demand for it, and that the business as such could be profitable. I always end up putting the idea back in the bag when realizing that no major actor would support me in this, as it would make the rest of their line look like crap and that consumers then have to come to terms with their crappy consumer choices.

But yes, it would be nice indeed. I just dont think "the capital" is very much interested in us thinking that way. After all, whats in it for them?

 

[divinox]

i guess, just ultimately, i look at my iphone and it makes me feel good. And then i look at this article, and i think, now does this make me feel good?

This is not about wages... It's about working conditions. Everybody knows you cannot compare wages dollar for dollar (or renminbi) across countries. What i'm talking about is maybe even beyond foxconn to their suppliers... And their suppliers.

Indentured servitude, forced overtime, 20 workers living together in a small apartment, and especially etc. Etc. Etc.

And then there's this, from the article. The most damning thing: Worker safety.

“it is gross negligence, after an explosion occurs, not to realize that every factory should be inspected,” said nicholas ashford, the occupational safety expert, who is now at the massachusetts institute of technology. “if it were terribly difficult to deal with aluminum dust, i would understand. But do you know how easy dust is to control? It’s called ventilation. We solved this problem over a century ago.”

i swear, it sometimes seems like some people here would be totally fine with looking the other way if there were another triangle shirtwaist factory tragedy... Because after all, all the companies seem to do it, so why should we care?

We ask, as we look back at our shiny iphone.

qft

 

[divinox]

Apple does care about keeping a cheap, reliable, flexible resource available to run their business. That is the beauty of markets. As Adam Smith proposed, by each person seeking their rational interests wealth is created. Granted, people can be evil and abusive, but after a while no one will do business with them. Apple is looking at their bottom line, Foxconn is looking at their bottom line and the Foxconn employees are looking at their bottom line. The only people who seem pissed off are the bystanders.

Do you really think that China would bow to pressure from an American company? And what good would it do to the people of China for everyone to know what they really think? To pull out of China and harm hundreds of thousands of people just to point out how corrupt their government is? Is that a moral choice?

And I promise you if Apple pulled out of China there would be dozens of stories about how Tim Cook was killing Chinese people.

Coca cola, nestle, monsanto, dole (to spare LTD an headache, i won't mention Apple). The list runs long. Clearly, Smith got this one wrong. I dont blame him though, the world have changed plenty since he walked the earth, its only natural. Point is: companies do get away with being evil. In fact, one could argue its closer to the other way around: those who aren't evil are the ones who end up getting no business in todays day and age.

Sickening, really.

 

[divinox]

First off, Apple's cash is irrelevant. Having Apple do something with its cash to improve the labor environment would be nice - if Apple owned the place. The matter of fact is the factory/factories belong to Foxconn, a company that is not controlled by Apple.
Now this goes both ways. Apple could build a factory and have it be all nice and stuff and have Foxconn workers in there, but the Chinese government would most likely not allow that. Foxconn is a separate entity from Apple. Apple can place its orders, but the people who get it done are Foxconn's execs and workers. How they get it done is not within Apple's direct control. They can coerce Foxconn to change things up and whatever, but do you really think it's feasible? Unless you replace the supervisors and/or managers (or whatever their positions are called) with Apple employees, it's unlikely that all the supervisors will change how they manage their workers.

I wouldn't call it corruption or whatever, but when Apple places a huge order of however many thousands or millions of devices/parts, there is a lot of pressure on supervisors at Foxconn, because their jobs are somewhat on the line if they don't meet a demand or quota or whatever.

If we throw Apple employees into Foxconn factories, I could foresee a difference. I mean consider what some of you are asking. Yes, Apple has a **** ton of money, but what are they supposed to do with it? Buy workers candy? Pay the workers bonus in addition to what Foxconn pays them? They have no direct way of putting cash into improving factory conditions or improving wages. Remember, this is not only a foreign company, but foreign ground as well. In China, lower-end labor is not as regulated as it is in America. There are just too many employees and too many cities.

Now onto my second point, which someone has mentioned earlier. This is not a slave camp or whatever. Workers are not being kept here against their will nor are they hired against their will. The reason why many workers continue to stay is because the conditions in which they're living under are probably better than anything else they could find. They at least have an income, a place to live, and food to eat. No matter how little or cramped, they have something.

And talking about their wages...there is a 1:6.7 (last time I checked) exchange rate of USD to RMB. You can go outside in the morning and spend like 5RMB on breakfast (1-2RMB is enough) which equates to less than a dollar. But workers are already given food and a place to live. This situation is definitely bad, don't get me wrong, but yell at Apple and defend workers for the right reasons. The "low" wage is not bad. You could take a McDonalds worker here in the States and put him in China with a similar salary and he will live comfortably - or at least more comfortably than he would in the States. The cost of living is much lower in China, and this is something people fail to mention. We cannot hold China to the same standards of the United States.

To the person who asked earlier if you could survive on a 200$/month salary. In the States? **** no. In China? Yes. There are some places in China where the "average" minimum wage is around 160USD. They seem to be surviving pretty well. Shenzhen, one of the factory's locations, has a minimum wage of 208$. Sure, that's difficult to survive on. Beijing, the capitol of China, has a minimum wage of 198$. Guangdong? 104USD-206USD. Sichuan? 71-135$.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_in_People's_Republic_of_China)

Which is why your wall of text doesn't add up: if Apple were as strict about worker quality as product quality, pressure would be on supervisors to improve working conditions. The issue raised in the article is in essence that Apple by being strict of one (product quality) forces "laxness" of the other (work quality).

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Apple didn't pass the savings of using Chinese serfs to consumers; they just increased their already quite high profit margins. There is no necessity they'd need to pass it the other way too, not with their existing margins.

Maybe they will offer a special model, like Product Red, or like buying electricity that comes from green sources and doesn't dump mercury into your drinking water, with a 25% markup, with a new boutique color. "Product Free" or something like, "now without 25% less slave labor".

Keep in mind that Apple is far from alone in benefiting from these slave-like conditions. Apple is just more successful at actually making a huge profit for more than just a handful of top executives. Today you must make a good profit with low prices and high compensation packages for upper management, and advancements in human rights since the 1930s put limits on much you can wring costs out from employees.

I find it ironic that today's Free Market rests on the willingness of a communist totalitarian regime to exploit their people for the benefit of today's no-holes-barred capitalists. The Chinese government owns the factories, removes the risk and supplies the bodies, huddling them together in dorms, never leaving the 'campus'. Harkens back to American Coal Miner's in the 1930s, indebted to the company store; not technically slaves, but not terribly different from them in any substantive way either. The fact that the Chinese can lend the U.S. money means the strategy is paying off for the Chinese in a big way, well, at the top anyway. But no wonder the have to put netting off the roofs for jumpers.

Listening to people -- some are whom are my friends -- rationalize Foxconn's and other Chinese company's abuses while simultaneously poo-pooing Nationalism (my Dad fought in WWII for this???), makes me realize how people were able to so easily excuse slavery during the 1800s -- only back then they didn't have big Economic textbooks to fall back on to berate the abolitionists, telling them "they just don't understand economics". I am sure that was just the Free Market at work, too, right? Had to keep the cost of cotton low, right? I love my levis jeans. Slaves were paid in food and housing, right?

Apple is a terrific company and it makes terrific products; and I know of no system other than capitalism that provides the opportunity for freedom; but I don't accept it has to be predicated on human misery and exploitation, much of which has been (officially) outlawed in the West (not totally gone: check out the tomato pickers in Florida). The race to the East is simply a great excuse to run the hands of the clock back before there were laws protecting people from exploitation at the hands of a few. When we are being asked to be "competitive", that is nothing short of a code word that the West must abandon a normal work day, homes with just a single family in it- or any family at all, an adult-only workforce, pensions, health benefits, air and drinking water free of debilitating poison. All of those things HURT business and cut into profits.

Way to drive the message home!