Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

iReality85

macrumors 65816
Apr 29, 2008
1,107
2,380
Upstate NY
There is definitely something fishy going on behind the scenes.

Sounds like there's some severe internal politics and/or book cooking going on here... Since GTA was working so closely with Apple to furnish its sapphire glass, Apple had to be aware (or have a very good idea of) GTA's financial standing, one would assume. Yet Apple was apparently caught off guard? GTA was even granted an extension of the loan repayment by Apple, and it filed for bankruptcy... and it won't disclose the details therein. Hmm... sounds like someone doesn't want to repay their loan. And now GTA wants to shutdown operations... which smacks of a "I'm taking my toys and going home if I don't get what I want (despite being contractually bound)" attitude.
 

UpperQuadrant

macrumors 6502
Aug 27, 2014
253
2
GT is a ponzi scheme. GT may have been able to produce sapphire displays in low volume, but knew the yield rates were extremely low. GT misleads Apple, inks deal to produce raw sapphire boules, and sends samples from existing furnaces to China factory to mill into display glass. Apple discovers extremely low yeild rates producing display glass from boules. Meanwhile, GT never actually purchases the furnaces for the new factory and uses the Apple loan to make make small re-payments and embezzles the rest of the money. Meanwhile, Apple finds another source for boules overseas for the upcoming Apple Watch. GT finds out and has no choice to file Ch-11 to get out of it's obligations to Apple. GT CEO sells his remaining stake in the company just before filling Ch-11. GT tries to use NDA agreements with Apple to hide what it was really up to.

There is more than one company that produces sapphire boules and finished product.
http://www.rubicontechnology.com/research-development/200kg-sapphire-boules

The CEO was embezzling money? I never heard that. Got proof of that? They bought the furnaces.

I think most of your comment is just fictitious.

----------

If Apple planned to use sapphire for iWatch, does it mean they will no longer use it given this scenario? In such a case, will the iWatch be cheaper?

I'm sure Apple can get Sapphire crystals for the AppleWatch, I don't think the Apple Watch is going to sell anywhere near what the iPhone 6/6+ are doing. Remember, GTAT has LOTS of furnaces and the plant they are talking about shutting down might be for the iPhones and not the Watch, so this is speculation as to the impact.

The AppleWatch (it's not called the iWatch), has 3 models, one without a sapphire screen, which is the cheaper aluminum model and then the stainless steel and 18K Gold models which will probably sell in smaller quantities at a higher price due to the case material and the sapphire crystal. Maybe GTAT can still supply the sapphire for camera lens, and watches, but not the iPhones and possibly iPads.

Time will tell.
 

ericlmercer

macrumors member
Oct 19, 2010
38
35
THIS was the holdup for the Watch ...

THIS the is why the Watch wasn't released during the Holiday Season....

THIS is thhhhheeee rrrrrest... of the story....
 

samcraig

macrumors P6
Jun 22, 2009
16,779
41,982
USA
That's the problem. Apple prepaid $400+ Million that was obviously used to build the plants with the equipment.

They paid for exclusivity - not the real estate or equipment. A gamble clearly. But they were looking at long term goals and objectives, not just a one product launch solution.
 

UpperQuadrant

macrumors 6502
Aug 27, 2014
253
2
If you literally bought a few shares than the cost to trade them is probably more than the value you would receive from the sale! So no reason to sell.

I would sell if they are trying to shut down a plant. I would hang on to the shares if they wanted to keep the plant running.

Why?

Shutting down a plant means that they aren't going to use the furnaces to make tons of product to have lots of sales.

Maybe we'll find out what REALLY was going on to see, but the dilemma is that if you are a shareholder, you always have the risk of losing some or all of your investment. It's that way with ALL investments since there is no 100% safe investment except for maybe a passbook savings account bringing 1% interest, which is below the rate of inflation.

You have three options right now if you own shares.

1. Sell
2. Hold what you have hoping they might come out of this (some do, most don't.)
3. Buy MORE shares at a lower price to lower your average share price HOPING that the company returns back.

Now, there are examples of companies that have been in bankruptcy that have emerged making tons of money. Harley Davidson is one of them. But ask yourself, is GTAT a company that has something truly unique that can't be done anywhere else that has a lot of demand? If they are wanting to wind down this brand new facility shortly after they built it, that would tell me that there is something wrong and that they can't produce desired components with high yield. to me, I wouldn't think this is going to return back. I think they might simply close shop if they can't produce something that Apple wants in high quantity.

My initial, gut feeling right now is to dump the stock, take the loss and move on. But that's based on the new information of them wanting to shut down a brand new plant. If they wanted to shut down an old aging plant to build a new modernized plant, that would be a different story and that's more of what Harley Davidson did because they were making problematic motorcycles due to they had to revamp their mfg and design plants. But GTAT just built this brand new plant, so that tells me, GTAT can't produce what Apple wants in large quantity. So, for Apple do move on, they have to use something else or seek another supplier, unless Apple can take over the plant and make the things with high yield/quality.

----------

Sounds like there's some severe internal politics and/or book cooking going on here... Since GTA was working so closely with Apple to furnish its sapphire glass, Apple had to be aware (or have a very good idea of) GTA's financial standing, one would assume. Yet Apple was apparently caught off guard? GTA was even granted an extension of the loan repayment by Apple, and it filed for bankruptcy... and it won't disclose the details therein. Hmm... sounds like someone doesn't want to repay their loan. And now GTA wants to shutdown operations... which smacks of a "I'm taking my toys and going home if I don't get what I want (despite being contractually bound)" attitude.

If you look at GTAT's June quarter, they looked great, but compare against the most recent quarter, they suck. Apple doesn't look at their daily financials.

I'm sure this investigation will turn up what REALLY happened that Apple and the public didn't know about.
 

Lannoc

macrumors regular
May 30, 2011
140
44
I would sell if they are trying to shut down a plant. I would hang on to the shares if they wanted to keep the plant running.

Why?

Shutting down a plant means that they aren't going to use the furnaces to make tons of product to have lots of sales.

Maybe we'll find out what REALLY was going on to see, but the dilemma is that if you are a shareholder, you always have the risk of losing some or all of your investment. It's that way with ALL investments since there is no 100% safe investment except for maybe a passbook savings account bringing 1% interest, which is below the rate of inflation.

You have three options right now if you own shares.

1. Sell
2. Hold what you have hoping they might come out of this (some do, most don't.)
3. Buy MORE shares at a lower price to lower your average share price HOPING that the company returns back.

Now, there are examples of companies that have been in bankruptcy that have emerged making tons of money. Harley Davidson is one of them. But ask yourself, is GTAT a company that has something truly unique that can't be done anywhere else that has a lot of demand? If they are wanting to wind down this brand new facility shortly after they built it, that would tell me that there is something wrong and that they can't produce desired components with high yield. to me, I wouldn't think this is going to return back. I think they might simply close shop if they can't produce something that Apple wants in high quantity.

My initial, gut feeling right now is to dump the stock, take the loss and move on. But that's based on the new information of them wanting to shut down a brand new plant. If they wanted to shut down an old aging plant to build a new modernized plant, that would be a different story and that's more of what Harley Davidson did because they were making problematic motorcycles due to they had to revamp their mfg and design plants. But GTAT just built this brand new plant, so that tells me, GTAT can't produce what Apple wants in large quantity. So, for Apple do move on, they have to use something else or seek another supplier, unless Apple can take over the plant and make the things with high yield/quality.

Thanks. My gut also says to sell, but at this point I am already down $15K so if it goes to $0 it won't be the end of the world.
 

UpperQuadrant

macrumors 6502
Aug 27, 2014
253
2
If Apple isn't going to use GTAT for sapphire for future iPhones and iPads, maybe people should buy Corning stock instead. :)

----------

Thanks. My gut also says to sell, but at this point I am already down $15K so if it goes to $0 it won't be the end of the world.

Yeah, it's a tough call. Maybe look at other stocks right now, since the market just took a dump, so there might be some other opportunities due to the drastic drop in the market. I would maybe wait a little longer to see how much longer this market drop is going to last..

I'm sorry you lost that much money in GTAT, that's unfortunately the problem with this scenario.
 

Rocketman

macrumors 603
What little we do know of the contract is Apple has a right to the equipment as collateral for the loan. It seems GT is suggesting to the BK court to kill the leases as pertains to GT, turn over all equipment to Apple, and move on from the deal, as, in whatever way, unworkable.

It could be excessive reach, or too high of Apple QC limits or both.

The equipment exists and perhaps Apple will form a company to specialize in Sapphire and license the tech from the post BK GT.

Filing BK is hard evidence Apple and GT no longer see eye-to-eye on the deal.

Rocketman
 

Radiating

macrumors 65816
Dec 29, 2011
1,018
7
I don't undertand this whole thing! Why wouldn't Apple simply buy the company outright and be done. Why loan them money, then not pay them, and now have a falling out? Apple probably realized the screens weren't any better than what they have now.

Except according to the laws of physics there is a huge difference. Very funny. My iP6 screen has scratches already and with the curved display its not compatible with any screen protector that isn't obvious and terrible looking. It needs the curved display to feel smaller so it would really benefit from a Saphire display. I have several watches with Saphire crystal and they are industructable for all intents and purposes, I've tried and failed to damage a dummy watch with Saphire crystal with all kinds of metal tools hitting it as hard as I can and it's just not happening. The iP6 gets scratched when I'm very careful by accident in my pocket.

I'd rather have a screen that is safe from maximum force gouges from a screw driver than once that gets damaged by a grains of sand with slightly sharp corners in my pocket.

The iphone 6S needs a Saphire display.
 
Last edited:

UpperQuadrant

macrumors 6502
Aug 27, 2014
253
2
THIS was the holdup for the Watch ...

THIS the is why the Watch wasn't released during the Holiday Season....

THIS is thhhhheeee rrrrrest... of the story....

I don't think this was the driving reason. Cook mentioned that they wanted to give developers a few months to develop apps for the AppleWatch and remember, sapphire crystals were only going to be used in the two higher priced models which won't sell as many as the lower priced model. I think Apple wanted to use sapphire for the iPhone 6/6+'s and maybe iPads which is why they needed so much product.

Getting sapphire crystals for an AppleWatch shouldn't be too difficult since many existing high end watches already use sapphire crystals and they aren't that big to begin with. For an iPhone, the size of the crystal is far more difficult to produce in large yields.
 

iPadPublisher

macrumors 6502
Apr 14, 2010
477
71
Apple will be a creditor in possession if they did the agreements right. Meaning they could absorb these assets under certain circumstances. Maybe not though.

Sounds like this little fish got dropped into a sea wayyyy out if their league. Sad, considering how muh Apple put into it.
 

UpperQuadrant

macrumors 6502
Aug 27, 2014
253
2
Well, at least you didn't lose as much as ...

Yeah, but he doesn't have $130 Billion in cash earning interest either.

Losing as much as he did is all relative. If I was a shareholder, I'd be pissed off for that kind of loss in this particular scenario.
 

UpperQuadrant

macrumors 6502
Aug 27, 2014
253
2
Except according to the laws of physics there is a huge difference. Very funny. My iP6 screen has scratches already and with the curved display its not compatible with any screen protector that isn't obvious and terrible looking. It needs the curved display to feel smaller so it would really benefit from a Saphire display. I have several watches with Saphire crystal and they are industructable for all intents and purposes, I've tried and failed to damage a dummy watch with Saphire crystal with all kinds of metal tools hitting it as hard as I can and it's just not happening. The iP6 gets scratched when I'm very careful by accident in my pocket.

I'd rather have a screen that is safe from maximum force gouges from a screw driver than once that gets damaged by a grains of sand with slightly sharp corners in my pocket.

The iphone 6S needs a Saphire display.

I'm getting a screen protector for my iPhone 6, so i'll see if this one works. There are tons of different screen protectors on the market, so maybe the screen protector you got doesn't work. Maybe there's a better product to use, but I understand where you are coming from.

In terms of sapphire crystals being indestructible, I don't know if I would say that. I had a Movado watch with a sapphire crystal that got scratched because I accidentally scrapped it against something that was obviously harder.

The problem I think is more in the size. I think they just couldn't get the yields up. Watches is entirely different due to a much smaller size.

It's too bad they can't make the screens out of freakin diamond, that would be ripping expensive.
 

Technarchy

macrumors 604
May 21, 2012
6,753
4,927
GT is a ponzi scheme. GT may have been able to produce sapphire displays in low volume, but knew the yield rates were extremely low. GT misleads Apple, inks deal to produce raw sapphire boules, and sends samples from existing furnaces to China factory to mill into display glass. Apple discovers extremely low yeild rates producing display glass from boules. Meanwhile, GT never actually purchases the furnaces for the new factory and uses the Apple loan to make make small re-payments and embezzles the rest of the money. Meanwhile, Apple finds another source for boules overseas for the upcoming Apple Watch. GT finds out and has no choice to file Ch-11 to get out of it's obligations to Apple. GT CEO sells his remaining stake in the company just before filling Ch-11. GT tries to use NDA agreements with Apple to hide what it was really up to.

There is more than one company that produces sapphire boules and finished product.
http://www.rubicontechnology.com/research-development/200kg-sapphire-boules

Sounds legit to me.

You get several hundred million from Apple and try to shut the place down 7 months later after the CEO dumps his stock before a CH11 announcement?

Now people know why Apple tends to do things in China :)
 

UpperQuadrant

macrumors 6502
Aug 27, 2014
253
2
I'm betting that Apple were oppressive partners, and GT just wanted the heck out.

I think they are more obsessive about yields and quality.

Some companies have very high standards. I used to work for a large corporation that was actually looking at buying Dell back in the late 90's, and they bought a huge number of Dells for corporate and they didn't meet their VERY stringent quality standards and they ended up sending the shipment back to Dell (something like 10,000 pcs) and they ended up passing on buying Dell.

There's a double edged sword in dealing with some large companies that have high standards. It's attractive because of the status and the amount of business they represent, but if you can't meet quality and delivery schedule, they can also take the deal away from you just as fast. It's not common but it does happen. These large companies simply can't afford getting large quantities of product that don't delivery schedule or quality standards. It's a tough situation for all parties involved.
 
Last edited:

tbrinkma

macrumors 68000
Apr 24, 2006
1,651
93
So I took a chance on a few shares of GTAT when they were $16.00. Do I bail out now or hold on and see what happens?
Thanks for your opinions

Your *worst case* scenario is that you're out $16/share. Currently, you're out $14-15/share.

Here's the question:
How many shares did you buy, and is the approx $1-2/share you can get for it *now* worth so much to you *now* that you can't afford to be without it?
 

UpperQuadrant

macrumors 6502
Aug 27, 2014
253
2
Sounds legit to me.

You get several hundred million from Apple and try to shut the place down 7 months later after the CEO dumps his stock before a CH11 announcement?

Now people know why Apple tends to do things in China :)


A CEO selling 5,000 shares when they owned 170,000+ shares is HARDLY dumping stock. Especially when the stock is only $11 a share when they sold the stock. That's only $55K before taxes. Jeeez. You sound like one of these journalist trying to create a fictitious spin on reality.

This has NOTHING to do with why Apple does things in China.

FYI, Apple's ARM chips are made in the USA. Samsung's chip mfg facilities are in Texas. I don't know where TSMC makes Apple's ARM chips, but it wouldn't surprise me if they are also made in the USA.

Apple buys a TON of components that aren't made in China, they just ASSEMBLE the product in China.

----------

Your *worst case* scenario is that you're out $16/share. Currently, you're out $14-15/share.

Here's the question:
How many shares did you buy, and is the approx $1-2/share you can get for it *now* worth so much to you *now* that you can't afford to be without it?

He said he lost $15,000, so it sounds like he bought 1,000 shares at $16 a share.
 

tbrinkma

macrumors 68000
Apr 24, 2006
1,651
93
The CEO may go to jail for trading on insider information.

You are all looking at it wrong.. Yes the deal to sell the stock was inked months ago. But did they wait to file chapter 11 so that he could sell his stock at a premium??? <-- That is illegal.

Exactly. The sale of the stock isn't the issue here, it's the timing of the bankruptcy announcement *just* after the sale that is suspicious.
 

UpperQuadrant

macrumors 6502
Aug 27, 2014
253
2
Except according to the laws of physics there is a huge difference. Very funny. My iP6 screen has scratches already and with the curved display its not compatible with any screen protector that isn't obvious and terrible looking. It needs the curved display to feel smaller so it would really benefit from a Saphire display. I have several watches with Saphire crystal and they are industructable for all intents and purposes, I've tried and failed to damage a dummy watch with Saphire crystal with all kinds of metal tools hitting it as hard as I can and it's just not happening. The iP6 gets scratched when I'm very careful by accident in my pocket.

I'd rather have a screen that is safe from maximum force gouges from a screw driver than once that gets damaged by a grains of sand with slightly sharp corners in my pocket.

The iphone 6S needs a Saphire display.

FWIW, Here's the screen protector I just bought am I'm supposed to get it later today or next week.

http://www.exheed.com/screen-protectors/premium-ultra-clear-ballistic-tempered-glass/

I haven't installed it yet, so I don't know how well it works, but I'll post something as soon as I get it installed.

Due to the iPhone 6 screen having curved edges, this protector doesn't cover the entire screen, but it's supposed to at least protect the thing. I'll let you know what I think after I get it installed. it's supposed to be super hard and prevent screen shattering.
 
Last edited:

ericlmercer

macrumors member
Oct 19, 2010
38
35
Yeah, but he doesn't have $130 Billion in cash earning interest either.

Losing as much as he did is all relative. If I was a shareholder, I'd be pissed off for that kind of loss in this particular scenario.

NS... I did actually... realize that... he doesn't have billions in the bank... I'll be sure to label future facetious comments as such for your benefit bro ... ;)
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.