iMovie '08 Was Originally Called 'First Cut', Ubillos on Final Cut Pro X

[TechKnow]

Wow. Ok six pages later, I think I will attempt to enter this thread.

There is a lot of discussion of "Pro" vs what I will call "casual" user. I think it is less of an issue of "pro" vs "casual", and more of an issue of workflow and environment.

I am a single editor of a weekly 30 minute show. ( And I do weddings ) so I can switch to whatever editing software I choose with little complications. But I have a vendor that I work with for the closed captioning, they have editors, graphics persons, camera operators, audio technicians and directors that have a need for all of these parts to flow from one system to another. This is a workflow that a lot of production houses have. Switching one part of the system radically will impact the entire work flow, which for them equals time and money. (They like to have money to eat and buy Apple products too)

Avid went through a similar issue recently with their upgrade of Media Composer. And previously when they discontinued Avid Xpress, so it is not unique to the industry. The difference is Avid gave a date in the future when it would stop supporting the discontinued version.

While it is true that a "pro" can use and expand with new tools, usually in a "Pro" workflow, they are one part of a whole of specialist who contribute to the final product.

The following is the opinion of one man, however you want to label me: I believe since Apple has been aggressively marketing to the production and finish houses that works in team and specialist environment, that the only flaw in the current action is lack of continuing support until a predetermined time to allow these users the time to plan their upgrade or to wait until features that are part of thier workflow, external monitoring for color correction, are implemented in FCPX.

 

[iphonepiephone]

Wow. Ok six pages later, I think I will attempt to enter this thread.

There is a lot of discussion of "Pro" vs what I will call "casual" user. I think it is less of an issue of "pro" vs "casual", and more of an issue of workflow and environment.

I am a single editor of a weekly 30 minute show. ( And I do weddings ) so I can switch to whatever editing software I choose with little complications. But I have a vendor that I work with for the closed captioning, they have editors, graphics persons, camera operators, audio technicians and directors that have a need for all of these parts to flow from one system to another. This is a workflow that a lot of production houses have. Switching one part of the system radically will impact the entire work flow, which for them equals time and money. (They like to have money to eat and buy Apple products too)

Avid went through a similar issue recently with their upgrade of Media Composer. And previously when they discontinued Avid Xpress, so it is not unique to the industry. The difference is Avid gave a date in the future when it would stop supporting the discontinued version.

While it is true that a "pro" can use and expand with new tools, usually in a "Pro" workflow, they are one part of a whole of specialist who contribute to the final product.

The following is the opinion of one man, however you want to label me: I believe since Apple has been aggressively marketing to the production and finish houses that works in team and specialist environment, that the only flaw in the current action is lack of continuing support until a predetermined time to allow these users the time to plan their upgrade or to wait until features that are part of thier workflow, external monitoring for color correction, are implemented in FCPX.

I don't get your point; those using FCP 7 and lesser, already have it, and can continue to use it. I don't recall anyone being forced to use FCP X, do you?

Just be grateful you're not using Ubuntu, and "KdenLive"

 

[guzhogi]

You actually make a good point, though might not realize it. The PC era is now slipping away, and Apple might possibly shut down the entire Mac line in 10 years. The portables/iOS devices are much more lucrative and are the future of the mass market.

It is speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the Macs wither on the vine by 2020. However, Apple would merely be transplanting the large computers with more-able portables as tech and engineering makes such devices into powerful PCs needing no tethering to a full-functioned Mac.

If you think about it, the speed/function gap between an iPad and an iMac is maybe 6 years at this moment. Once it gets down under 3, and off-pad storage is heartily available, the iMac will go towards obsolescence. OSX might well be the last Mac OS. iPad and iPhone have changed the market and will continue to do so from here onward.

FCPX begins to point strongly to Apple losing grip with professionals. Their eyes are concerned with the larger markets, now: not the Windows market, but one they are creating new and ruling with the iOS gadgets.

I can definitely see the computer world going to portable computing devices (laptops, tablets & smart phones) in the next 10-15 years and then transitioning to something totally different we can't even imagine yet. However, I think that's mainly for the basic consumer, everyday guy stuff. I don't think the need for big workstations, supercomputers & data centers will ever go away. It might look totally different in 20 years, but the need for powerful computers will always exist, from what I've seen.

As I said in an earlier post:
Once you have a significant market share, you only have two options:
1) cater to your constituency and only make slow and small changes, essentially stay stuck in the past (eg, Windows XP which is still going strong in business)
2) annoy your constituency from time to time by throwing old things out and introducing something new.

If Henry Ford would have had a nation-wide business of horse sales, horse 'service' stations, etc., he could have kept this business going as it was and just add the car business, or he could have said, shut down the horse business, cars are the future.

It feels like Apple was selling an implicit promise with each copy of FCP that for the next five (or ten) years we will continue to make changes and improvements to this application without breaking any backwards compatibility nor changing the workflow in anything but minor ways. And what people now complain about is that Apple broke that promise. Except that Apple never made such a promise. Nor does Adobe for Premiere (in fact they discontinued Premiere for the Mac with fairly short notice).

You have a good point, although I don't think big, abrupt changes are the best. I think we need a transition period between your number 1 & 2. I think that having big changes is important in order to move forward, but have a transition period just so people can get used to it and get everything else to work with it.

 

[d4rkc4sm]

i ****ing love fcp x. it's awesome.

 

[autrefois]

At this point we'd need someone like Donald Trump sitting at a table and saying: "you're fired!". Who do we fire for such an epic disaster? I wouldn't exclude having to fire Steve Jobs again. After all he pushed for Imovie 08 which nobody wants.

Steve may be the one doing the firing, and it will go something like this...

“Can anyone tell me what Final Cut Pro X is supposed to do? So why the ******* doesn’t it do that?”

 

[manu chao]

You have a good point, although I don't think big, abrupt changes are the best. I think we need a transition period between your number 1 & 2. I think that having big changes is important in order to move forward, but have a transition period just so people can get used to it and get everything else to work with it.

I think after a transition period Apple will offer FCP 7 together with FCP X via some jumping through hoops (or facilitate the release of existing boxed copies into the used market). They just don't announce it right away to force enough people to seriously consider the switch to FCP X...
(I know this is cruel treatment but sometimes Apple likes to mess with our minds.)

 

[lesreaper2009]

I am sick of the stupid kids who has no idea of video editing posting their useless garbage in here.

Final Cut Pro X IS GARBAGE!!!!

I work in a TV station, we had no less than 900 projects in FCP 7 and is just no tolerable not having FCP X not reading those projects 100%. We are not exporting in any other stinky format, WE JUST CAN NOT! WE HAVE NO TIME!

Compressor 3 was mediocre enough, Final Cut Server was a complete lie already.

By the end of the year we are going to switch the entire platform to Adobe Premiere and that is going to cost our shareholders some good money and time and training but better safe than depending on a CEO of a crazy software company with cancer in his brain creating software for Barbie.

Welcome to the land of Adobe Premiere! People thought I was crazy for switching when FCS3 came out, but I'm pretty happy and haven't looked back. There are still a few challenges I deal with, but WAY less than FCP. Enjoy!

 

[Dranix]

What do you expect from a company that can't do a decent photo editor?

Hmm? Where is Aperture not decent? It’s a great program...

 

[dagamer34]

A similar analogy would be Microsoft immediately cutting sales and support for Windows XP when Windows Vista came out, and the public didn't get what was thought to be a "decent" OS until Windows 7 three years later.

The problem isn't with Final Cut, it's Apple's culture of secrecy. Not having roadmaps scares people that needs to plan months/years in advance. Not properly communicating your message to the community is what leads to "sudden surprises". Not respecting users by assuming you know what is best for everyone is kinda arrogant.

Here's a list of similar situations where Apple's secrecy was to their disadvantage:
1) "Antennagate"
2) iOS "location tracking" - heck, they had congressional meetings on that one
3) Lodsys patent trolling

I don't think anyone disagrees that in the future FCPX has the potential to be a good NLE in the future. The only problem is because Apple has yet to make a single official statement, it could be 6 months or 6 years before we get to that point. And for professionals, that uncertainty is really what bothers them the most.

 

[daverso]

I really don't understand the whining. It is a completely rewritten software. Things were never gonna be complete at version 1.0. Yet people act like armageddon has come. If it is that big an issue for you Adobe and Avid will be happily waiting for you.

It may be new software, but it still carries the Final Cut name.

I LOVE Apple, but this is sadly somewhat consistent with some of their recent moves... "You don't like it? You're just not doing it right."

I have faith that they will make some important small changes to make it better, but I have no faith that FCP will be an industry standard without some extreme changes.

 

[hamean]

Prediction: These FCP X threads will read like this in a couple years.

Good find. I see both sides on this issue. I am concerned about Apples Pro line. They've been pumping new products out left and right the last few years, and I think their development teams are stretched a little thin. They need to pump more power into development of pro software no doubt.

It remains to be seen whether they notice this anti-pro trend and dedicate the energy to pro stuff necessary like they have done for the consumer devices recently.

 

[d4rkc4sm]

apple is on the right track with fcpx. its an amazing app. i love it

 

[Lone Deranger]

Good find. I see both sides on this issue. I am concerned about Apples Pro line. They've been pumping new products out left and right the last few years, and I think their development teams are stretched a little thin. They need to pump more power into development of pro software no doubt.

It remains to be seen whether they notice this anti-pro trend and dedicate the energy to pro stuff necessary like they have done for the consumer devices recently.

Agreed. What worries me is that when they do realize that the Pro market might be slipping away from them, they'll abandon it rather than fight for it as they feel their consumer products are 'skating' them where the puck is going.

 

[Oletros]

I don't recall anyone being forced to use FCP X, do you?

Anyone who needs a new license of FCP 7?

 

[bigjohn]

I work in a TV station, we had no less than 900 projects in FCP 7 and is just no tolerable not having FCP X not reading those projects 100%. We are not exporting in any other stinky format, WE JUST CAN NOT! WE HAVE NO TIME!

How often do you go back and work on those projects again and again? In our TV operation, we're not going back and reworking old material over and over once it's aired. No one is saying you have to transition to the new software when the old version works well.

I'll ignore your other comments about who to shoot and whatnot. You apparently need a valium or something.

 

[tmroper]

The Inciting Incident

"Ubillos returned from vacation..." and got a bright idea about how to edit footage from it easier? Oh boy, I'm sure that fact alone about the history of what's now FCPX would make the editors who are upset with it even more upset. It's just so glib to start with. And vacation footage is a whole lot different than take after take over days and days (or months) of shooting a feature.

So I can understand why professionals with a lot invested in the FCS workflow are very upset. But I'm looking foward to giving FCPX a try, and to the unfolding drama surrounding it (in screenwriting terms, the abrupt switch is called the "inciting incident").

 

[TechKnow]

I don't get your point; those using FCP 7 and lesser, already have it, and can continue to use it. I don't recall anyone being forced to use FCP X, do you?

Just be grateful you're not using Ubuntu, and "KdenLive"

The issue is not being fixed to use FCPX, it is an issue of support. If I am happy with FCP7, but need to add another station for a project I cannot buy another seat from Apple. Or if another application on the edit system needs an update that "breaks" FCP7, I have no support from Apple.

Again as a single user user, I could find a lot of ways to work around these limitations, but with multiple systems and a production workflow, the problem multiplies and compounds.

Just continued support for a set amount of time could eleviate the problem even if were 6-12 months it would allow for time to budget and prepare.

 

[Bialykot]

I can understand both points of view around FCPx and can see professionals being a little worried. However draw some parallels from the audio recording industry. Several years ago you had to spend 1000s to record a CD. Hire charges for studios, expensive equipment and software, you needed 'professionals' to do all this for you. Wind on to today, and yes of course there are large studios turning out Grammy award music, BUT the small studio business model is almost dead. Creative bands are turning out their own recordings using GarageBand and similar in their bedrooms. And they're getting into the charts. Professional, prosumer and casual are all merging. Video editing is following this trend. Apple is recognising this and it will happen because it has to.

 

[bigjohn]

I for one can't wait until all of these so-called "pros" stop their griping and get out of the way. Move to PP or Avid and leave the next generation to determine the path. All of the pros I know either adapt to new technology or they find other things to do with their lives. I'm pretty sure that when the EVS came out, all the tape guys thought it was the end of the world, now we're dependent on a tapeless system - is it perfect, no, but it's a helluva lot better than lugging around reels or betas and editing tape to tape.

Things will get better, if they're not getting better fast enough for you, then by all means abandon ship. FCPX works for me*, so I think I'll stick around and see what happens next.

*I don't cut features or rely on an extensive post house. Cut highlights, sprinkle on some AE or Motion, get them on TV, no looking back - on to the next game.

 

[ucantgetridofme]

You do know that the genius who "ruined" FCP and iMovie is also the genius who created FCP and iMovie to begin with, right?

Well that changes everything..... but not really.

 

[jjhny]

I really don't understand the whining. It is a completely rewritten software. Things were never gonna be complete at version 1.0. Yet people act like armageddon has come. If it is that big an issue for you Adobe and Avid will be happily waiting for you.

The reason you don't understand is that your living doesn't depend on it. There are people who have to deliver certain things, like tape for example. Television networks demand tape delivery - they don't care that it's archaic, and Apple saying we have decided for you doesn't cut it. The TV networks will laugh at us if we say Apple said tape doesn't matter.

Also, production houses who went to FCP have archives of many older projects that often need to be opened up and worked with. Edited segments can be pulled etc. Apple's answer is well you are SOL - do you know how long and tedious it would be to redo all the cuts and layers, redo all the sound editing - it would be like Quark or inDesign saying, all those long layouts and templates you use - sorry, you have to recreate them all.

Speaking of archives, all archives are kept on tape - now we can't access them! Years of stock footage is now gone! Thanks Randy!

There are many other things we have to have - post production is a complicated business. Unless you do it, you really can't understand it, the complications are incredible. FCPX didn't make it easier, the app just chose to ignore it's there.

I won't even go into the smaller screen real estate (i.e. can't put bin windows on a separate screen so your timeline has more room - oh, I forgot, we don't have bins anymore, just some insane meta data organization like spotlight!)

For more insight go here (if you want to get technical about it), you'll at least see what the bitching is all about:

http://www.richardharringtonblog.com/files/fcpx_response.php

 

[skellener]

I don't necessarily think the problem is with the new tools. It's more the lack of the "professional" tools. This is really just Final Cut Express X. It's one thing if the editors were soley complaining about the new features. That is not the case. There are those, but there is much more to it. Apple has completely removed all the "Pro" features from Final Cut PRO!!!!! What did they expect people would say? You can't call it a Pro app and take out a professionals' life blood from a product and not expect a backlash. Imagine a new version of Photoshop was released and could not read PSDs?? A new interface is one thing. This?....this is NOT a Pro app. Apple really screwed the pooch here.

 

[fred1]

FCPX in education?

I think I see what the problem is here. In the article, Randy Ubillos "returned from vacation and found that final cut wasn't ideal for organizing raw footage". He didn't know this before he left? I my mind he wanted/needed something that would be better suited to the at home casual user, not a professional. And this line of thinking has been standard operating procedure at Apple since I-movie 06.

The complains I have with FCPX come at it from an educational perspective. How can I use this in a school environment? The basic problem as I see it is that this program is designed for a single user on a single machine. I have been playing with FCPX for days now, and I can't find a simple way around this. The files are all over the place. for example, imported files go to the movie folder by default. It can be changed to an external hard drive but the support files are in FCPX. That means that the kids won't be able to take the project home to work on.
I know I can change the defaults… but some of our kids will be doing everything in the lab. I'm going to be hearing a lot of complaints about lost data and non backed up projects. That's just for starters, and is specific to our needs with this program.

I think FCPX is just the first shoe dropping. What happens when Lion comes out? FCPX is designed to be used with Lion, and perhaps things will improve when it's up and running, but where does that leave the school districts? Now we have to buy both programs, all the add on apps. (compressor and others) and all the upgrades? The main concern is that Lion and FCPX seem to be a package deal.
And Lion will be very problematic for us because it will come without Rossetta. A lot the families in our district can't afford to upgrade everything as it comes out, so the divide between school and home computer use will become extreme.

The second issue for Apple is that , from the kids perspective, FCPX has overnight become "un-cool". It doesn't matter that to them that things will be fixed down the road. They want to learn the program that ( … ) used to produce (…) and in only four days, not the one that Aunt (…) used to get that video on to You Tube.
I'm not sure how Apple will get around this one, but having the famous filmmaker (…) come out and say he's going to use FCPX to do his next film will only be met with laughter.

A suggestion for the Apple team? Why don't you make FC7 fully supported in Lion, and sell both FCPX and and hopefully a new FC8. That way you will be selling to both the pros and the casual user. And in some cases you will be selling both programs to single user. A lot of our kids went from Express to Pro as they found they needed better tools.

The bottom line. I'm suggesting we don't get FCPX, or Lion in our district until this works itself out. Way to many chances for the kids and their families to come out on the short end. Both programs have gone from "must haves" to maybe later in our schools.

An addendum. I am reminded a quote from Carl Sagan in his book Dragons of Eden when I read that "… they laughed I-movie 08, they complained about Final Cut 1…" and other arguments like this in these posts. Dr. Sagan's observation about using this as an argument was ... "so what they laughed at Bozo the Clown too"

 

[bigjohn]

Television networks demand tape delivery

Speaking of archives, all archives are kept on tape - now we can't access them! Years of stock footage is now gone! Thanks Randy!

Run everything through a KiPro - that solves your tape problem.

 

[0098386]

The real tragedy here is if Apple thinks all the anger over FCP X is just about that particular software, and not the growing fear over the last few years that pro apps and gear are a fading priority for Apple. For instance:

* It took almost 2.5 years to go from Final Cut Studio 2 to Final Cut Studio 3, and Final Cut Studio 3 was just a moderate update. Then it took almost another 2 full years to introduce Final Cut Pro X, which removed tons of features!

* Apple bought Shake, and then cancelled it. Cancelled it! Apple said there would be a next-generation app coming in Shake's place, but that never showed up.

* Apple started letting Logic atrophy.

* Apple "phoned-in" the last few Mac Pro updates, just slapping in some new Intel chips, but not adding value such as 1) more expansion slots (three slots is not a lot for a workstation), and 2) never bothering to include an eSATA port, even though tons of media professionals started using eSATA, 3) never bothering to include a USB3 port, etc. etc. Many people are wondering if the new Thunderbolt port will be Apple's excuse to give up on the Mac Pro altogether.

* Apple stopped updating its "Pro" page almost two years ago, here: http://www.apple.com/pro/

* Apple stopped attending NAB, and other standard industry events.

* Multiple rumors that Apple was trying to sell its Pro Apps division....


People have spent a lot of time and money building their businesses and careers around FCP. But since the iPhone launched, FCP and other pro apps and gear have gotten noticeably less attention.

That makes a lot of people nervous, and left to wonder what Apple's intentions are. You really can't help but wonder because Apple is so ridiculously silent about its intentions, which works fine on the consumer side but not when people are investing tens of thousands of dollars in apps and gear around Apple.

Combine that with Apple shipping a new version of Final Cut that is so radically different and so underpowered, and also discontinuing sales for FCS 3 suites and FCP Server (with no explanation about Server's demise or any intentions on bringing back multi-user functionality) and you can see how the dam finally burst in the Pro community and the angry flood waters rushed in.

Apple better start communicating better with its pro customers, and re-assuring them that it's committed to professional work in this new era of the iPhone/iPad. Otherwise, a lot of people will be heading for the doors...

Hear (bloody) hear!

Personally I don't believe Apple are too interested in this market. Which is quite bad because Apple were really good with pro apps and hardware, where do us prosumers/freelance people go now?

How's Adobe Premier these days?