Intel M25 SSD not so good after all....

[Rick Here]

…and its performance degradation over time.
http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=669&type=expert

Using the Intel M25 in the Mac Pro maybe a waste of money.
Does anyone using this SSD see this phenomenon in there MAC?

A RAID system perhaps may limit this fragmentation.

 

[Outsider]

I wonder if the OS can affect this degradation of performance. If I recall Mac OS X defragments under normal operations and suffers from fragmentation less than Windows OSes.

 

[Anonymous Freak]

Intel claims that the artificial method used to 'long term test' the drive is flawed, and does not represent actual long term use validly enough.

aka, Intel claims that this report is flawed. (Note: I'm not working for the SSD dept, so I have no vested interest in this.)

 

[PowerPaw]

The alleged performance degradation relates to the write leveling feature built into the SSD, not how the OS handles fragmentation.

 

[Rick Here]

The size of the writes cause the wear leveling to fragment the data, thus slowing the device speeds.
Just how reliable is this flash stuff when put under the stresses of constant reads/writes?
Databases constantly write new records.

 

[Pressure]

Part of the problem is the antiquated file system (NTFS) they are using.

Although it were introduced in 1993 the technology is older.

ZFS is going to make things much better but hopefully it will be enabled in Snow Leopard instead of only just Snow Leopard Server.

 

[sidewinder]

Part of the problem is the antiquated file system (NTFS) they are using.

Although it were introduced in 1993 the technology is older.

ZFS is going to make things much better but hopefully it will be enabled in Snow Leopard instead of only just Snow Leopard Server.

Most people are using SSD's for boot devices. Assuming the workstation version of Snow Leopard supports ZFS, will it support booting off of a ZFS file system?

S-

 

[Pressure]

Most people are using SSD's for boot devices. Assuming the workstation version of Snow Leopard supports ZFS, will it support booting off of a ZFS file system?

S-

That's a good question. The newest developer build 10A261 does not contain full ZFS support but are heaps above 10A222 (in regards to stability with ZFS drives).

I haven't seen any data for who actually uses Solid State Drives, so I cannot comment on whether or not they are primarily being used as boot devices.

Although I should mention that Solaris 10 can boot ZFS and that the Mac OS Forge program is pretty much in-line with what they have developed so far for Solaris.

 

[sidewinder]

I haven't seen any data for who actually uses Solid State Drives, so I cannot comment on whether or not they are primarily being used as boot devices.

The impression I get from people here is that the use SSD's for boot devices. Considering their small capacity and expense, it doesn't make sense to use them for anything else. Well, maybe the could be used as a scratch disk for PhotoShop. But that might be a little excessive of the constant writes.

S-

 

[DoFoT9]

well this is interesting news, i hope that a FS other then NTFS proves to be better at managing it... :|

 

[sidewinder]

Although I should mention that Solaris 10 can boot ZFS and that the Mac OS Forge program is pretty much in-line with what they have developed so far for Solaris.

While the Mac OS Forge ZFS project is trying to be in line with what is available in Solaris, it is well behind. Also, the Mac OS Forge ZFS project is not the same thing as what the Apple Engineering team is doing. So, regardless of what the Mac OS Forge ZFS project is offering now or will offer in the future, we won't what Apple is doing with regards to ZFS in Snow Leopard until they disclose it or release Snow Leopard.

S-

 

[Pressure]

The impression I get from people here is that the use SSD's for boot devices. Considering their small capacity and expense, it doesn't make sense to use them for anything else. Well, maybe the could be used as a scratch disk for PhotoShop. But that might be a little excessive of the constant writes.

S-

I would have guessed military applications as well as high I/O servers would be the prime markets for Solid State Drives. Markets that aren't so price-sensitive as the mainstream market.

While the Mac OS Forge ZFS project is trying to be in line with what is available in Solaris, it is well behind. Also, the Mac OS Forge ZFS project is not the same thing as what the Apple Engineering team is doing. So, regardless of what the Mac OS Forge ZFS project is offering now or will offer in the future, we won't what Apple is doing with regards to ZFS in Snow Leopard until they disclose it or release Snow Leopard.

S-

Indeed-y, that is correct.

Although it does seem to be a priority.

Can I boot off of ZFS?

Not yet but we are working on it. Since booting off of ZFS requires changes to other parts of the system we won't likely be able to release it in a simple tarball. However our goal is to be able to have it available for the next OS X release if we can.

 

[Thiol]

Intel claims that the artificial method used to 'long term test' the drive is flawed, and does not represent actual long term use validly enough.

aka, Intel claims that this report is flawed. (Note: I'm not working for the SSD dept, so I have no vested interest in this.)

I've had one since they came out, about 6 months ago. With my usage patterns, I haven't seen any degradation in performance.

 

[aibo]

If or when Intel is able to replicate the results, they'll issue a firmware update. But the fact that they can't, just calls into question the artificial testing method and how reflective it is to real world usage.

With the X25-M at ~$350 now on places like NewEgg and Amazon, it's probably the most drastic and most cost-effective performance boost you can do for your Mac Pro right now. I just ordered one... can't wait.

 

[More]

Nonsense.

I have two X25-M drives in a RAID-0 config here on my Mac Pro for my boot drive. Adding this config has given me the single greatest speed increase I've ever experienced. Even if the X25-Ms slow down a tiny bit with use over time, they're still going to beat any other drive to a pulp.

The X25-M drives are insanely fast. Strap two of them together in a RAID-0 config and every other mac/pc you'll ever use will feel sluggish. These things are the single greatest performance boost you will ever experience. The new Mac Pros (later this year) may bring a lot more horsepower in CPU terms but in todays machines it's the hard-drive that's holding everyone back for responsiveness and general speed. Photoshop launches in 1.5 seconds. Illustrator is 2.5 seconds and InDesign is also 2.5 seconds (all CS4). System boots in 15 seconds. It's the simple things like this that still blow me away.

 

[grue]

I'd love to get an X25M as a boot drive for my Pro, but the problems are that the 160GB model that I'd need (I can't fit my OS and applications and support files on an 80) is still retardedly expensive, and the write speeds aren't quite what I'd be happy with yet.

On the other hand, the OCZ Vertex looks good on paper, so maybe one of those will be a viable option soon.

 

[grue]

The impression I get from people here is that the use SSD's for boot devices. Considering their small capacity and expense, it doesn't make sense to use them for anything else. Well, maybe the could be used as a scratch disk for PhotoShop. But that might be a little excessive of the constant writes.

S-

Not to mention a Velociraptor will tear the ass out of SSDs in terms of write speeds, and makes a lot more sense as a scratch disk.

 

[dr. shdw]

Not to mention a Velociraptor will tear the ass out of SSDs in terms of write speeds, and makes a lot more sense as a scratch disk.

Not really, newer SSDs are coming out at 200mb/s write, 200mb/s+ read. A single Velociraptor cannot do that.

 

[grue]

Not really, newer SSDs are coming out at 200mb/s write, 200mb/s+ read. A single Velociraptor cannot do that.

I invite you to compare sustained write speeds, not bursts. I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I don't think I am.

 

[dr. shdw]

I invite you to compare sustained write speeds, not bursts. I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I don't think I am.

Heh like these?

http://pcper.com/article.php?aid=670&type=expert&pid=5

Synthetic but yeah..

2 Velociraptors in RAID 0 catches up to 1 Vertex in avg. transfer speeds. Burst is indeed higher for the Velociraptors

And extremely good 4k read/write speeds.

 

[grue]

Heh like these?

http://pcper.com/article.php?aid=670&type=expert&pid=5

Synthetic but yeah..

2 Velociraptors in RAID 0 catches up to 1 Vertex in avg. transfer speeds. Burst is indeed higher for the Velociraptors

And extremely good 4k read/write speeds.

Interesting. Once they stop being retardedly expensive, I may look into one.

 

[Boneoh]

Just ordered one from NewEgg

I Just ordered one from newegg from the new mac pro. Are there any setup steps in OS X that I need to take? It seems that I should use the ssd for boot os and software installs and the hd for user files, temp, etc. What do I need to do to configure this setup correctly?

Thanks!

 

[jjahshik32]

Yea this is why I sold off my intel x25-m 3 weeks ago.

 

[No4mk2]

It seems that I should use the ssd for boot os and software installs and the hd for user files, temp, etc. What do I need to do to configure this setup correctly?

Sorry for the late reply, but I just ran across the thread doing some research. As you've probably found out by now...
No special set up aside from formatting the disk, boot and apps drive only due to the price and size, download and apply the firmware upgrade from Intel.

No doubt you've been using it. What do you think? Kind of awesome, is it not?

 

[Tesselator]

The impression I get from people here is that the use SSD's for boot devices. Considering their small capacity and expense, it doesn't make sense to use them for anything else. Well, maybe the could be used as a scratch disk for PhotoShop. But that might be a little excessive of the constant writes.

S-

MMmm, I dunno about that. Yes most people are saying here or suggesting to use them as boot drives. But that's because of the seek speed (ie. it's like, 0ms ) and not really because of the capacity. Current SSD sizes are just fine for almost all video editing jobs anyone is likely to do. But they're not faster than a 3-drive RAID when it comes to video editing so the logic here I assume is based on the price per gig. You can either have 256 Gigs at 300 MB/s or you can have 3 TBs at 350 MB/s for the same amount of money.

Also these SSD drives do indeed come in larger capacities up to 1TB but I dunno price or availability. Here's one that's 640 Gigs for example. Here's an older article that talks a little bit about it:

Latest NAND Flash Technology Will Allow BiTMICRO to Offer up to 832GB Capacity in Compact Form Factor, Paving the Way for Mass SSD Deployment in the Performance and Capacity-Hungry Yet Price-Sensitive Personal Computing and Enterprise Markets

International Consumer Electronics Show (CES), Las Vegas, NV - January 7, 2008, - Flash solid state disk (SSD) pioneer BiTMICRO Networks announced at the CES 2008 show in Las Vegas, Nevada its plan to launch an 832GB version of the E-Disk® Altima(tm) SATA flash SSD in 2.5-inch form factor.