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cubist

macrumors 68020
Jul 4, 2002
2,075
0
Muncie, Indiana
Nothing to do with the Surface.

Park your Surface next to your Zune, it's a zombie product. The RT version has no apps, and it'll be firesaled or landfilled and forgotten. The Surface Pro is too heavy, too thick, and has ridiculously short battery life. People expect a tablet to be light and thin and have all-day battery life - like an iPad.

Windows 8 will slog on, but most people will get rid of the start screen. At that point you're basically running Windows 7 with a few tweaks (which was Vista with a few tweaks), and iTunes 11 is perfectly usable.
 

Michael Goff

Suspended
Jul 5, 2012
13,329
7,421
That is a web browser. A relatively simple UI(s). I was just pointing out that there two versions of Adobe Reader. I never said that it was impossible to have one app and two UIs depending on device. But it is impossible to rid this forum of ignorant idiots.

And steam?

My point was more... you don't have to download two programs to have two UIs. But I guess that doesn't fit with your post so you just decided to be willfully ignorant.

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I think you belong to the wrong forum. I think you need to sing the holy praises to a forum that's enthused by a product who's company is made up of 4 colored windows. :p

Saying something good about a company that isn't Apple is illegal here? Then again, I suppose you probably come here to validate your opinion about everything instead of actually discussing.

:rolleyes:
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,150
31,206
I think that Apple does it out of the goodness of their hearts. Or maybe as a public service. Or because they are a 501(c)(3) charitable organization.

Yeah! That's it! That's the ticket!

I know you're just trolling but this is pretty pathetic. The point of iTunes, of any Apple software really, is to sell Apple hardware. iTunes is available for Windows 8. What sense does it make for Apple to produce a tablet version since people can go into the desktop version of Windows 8 to access it? And Windows RT devices aren't selling very well. How does having iTunes on Windows (or Android for that matter) tablets and phones sell more iDevices or Macs?
 

pundit

macrumors regular
Mar 18, 2007
114
0
Park your Surface next to your Zune, it's a zombie product. The RT version has no apps, and it'll be firesaled or landfilled and forgotten.

You know you might have a point about that lack of apps thing. The app store only has like 13,000 apps... so the devices are obsolete and should be land-filled, absolutely. The Mac App Store, that is. Of course, with whats happening with the Mac Pro, Apple are making great strides towards this.

The Microsoft app store is doing just fine. The in-use Windows 8 base will surpass the entire X86 Mac ecosystem late this summer. Thats simply a lot of machines for app developers to target. I don't believe that you comprehend how Modern apps work. An RT Modern app is precisely the same as an X86 Modern app, with the sole exception of a different compiler switch. Its utterly trivial to develop for both, so both versions get included in the Microsoft App store, and the correct one gets installed.

In 5-10 years when a developer does precisely the same thing, because its another minute of compilation at the end, all of the RT users will still be being supported. Just like the backwards compatibility in Windows since forever.


The Surface Pro is too heavy, too thick, and has ridiculously short battery life. People expect a tablet to be light and thin and have all-day battery life - like an iPad.

It seems like you are under the mistaken impression that only the OS manufacturer implementations of Windows 8 tablets count. There are plenty of W8 tablets that are thin, light and last all day. Particularly the Atom tablets. The Lenovo implementation is pretty awesome. The new Bay Trail Atoms will be heavily optimized for tablets, upping the already significant performance advantage that X86 has over ARM.

The Intel roadmap goes in cycles of 2. First new core technology is released, then they make it more energy efficient and tweak the chipset and surrounding technology. Windows 8 was released on the first cycle, so its mobile chips weren't terribly energy efficient (although the Atom's beat anything ARM in performance per watt by a mile.) Haswell is out this year and is going to allow for the same massively increased performance over anything ARM.. say like the Ipad, and yet improve the battery life to be all day (although there are existing iCore X86 tablets that can run all day, like the Samsung 700T, say.)

Here's the intel Haswell "North Cape" reference tablet hands on. They figure 10 hours of battery with an i7.

http://www.engadget.com/2013/04/25/intel-haswell-north-cape-hands-on-battery-life/

Windows 8 will slog on, but most people will get rid of the start screen. At that point you're basically running Windows 7 with a few tweaks (which was Vista with a few tweaks), and iTunes 11 is perfectly usable.

You don't have to get rid of the start screen, when including a start menu. You can have both. And people like having full screen touch aware apps, particularly with touch hardware... which doesn't have to be a touch screen. If your only experience of Windows 8 and a mouse, I can see how that might be a problem (there is a new learning curve,) but you can use a Logitech Touchpad T650 as well. Its fully gesture compliant including bezel gestures and makes windows 8 just as intuitive as on a tablet (and its really really easy to navigate on a tablet.)

Yes, you could also use it like Windows 7. You don't have to, however, and as more and more people transition to more touch-aware hardware, the more people will use the designed-for-touch interface.

The improvement I think Windows 8 most needs at the moment is on-the-fly automatic DPI scaling on a per-display basis, with API's for apps to control it too... but Windows is on a 12 month or so upgrade cycle now... so perhaps Blue.
 

fenderbass146

macrumors 65816
Mar 11, 2009
1,453
2,545
Northwest Indiana
So rather than getting paid for downgrading someone's PC you tell them to FO and use it :) ?

It will be a LONG time until the touch interface is pretty much mandatory .. I mean we still have 2000+ XP machines for crying out loud, with NO intention to upgrade ANY TIME soon.

Plus, the only place where a customer is NOT right, is a tax office ..

You have clearly never worked in retail

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The reason we don't down grade is its difficulty to find drivers for some of these windows pc not impossible but time consuming. We also have a contract with Microsoft to only sell 8 in stores. If someone brings in a 7 disc we will attempt it but don't recommend it
 

Swift

macrumors 68000
Feb 18, 2003
1,828
964
Los Angeles
There was an article that Windows 8 gives the continuous "sold vs. shipped" debate a whole new meaning: There are estimates that of 100 million of Windows 8 copies _sold_ (and paid for) only about a third are actually shipped. That would be PC makers having to pay Microsoft for Windows 8 but then shipping the computer with Windows 7 because that is what the customer wants.

Know what else sold in the same quarter? 135 million iOS devices. : )
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,763
10,890
Number of those devices that can run iTunes and charge/sync iDevices = 0

Number of those devices that require iTunes and a PC to charge/sync = 0

It's almost like you're comparing two completely unrelated subjects and then trying to form a connection.

I think windows 8 is a pretty clear admission that mobile and desktop are not completely unrelated. :D
 

pundit

macrumors regular
Mar 18, 2007
114
0
Number of those devices that require iTunes and a PC to charge/sync = 0

Incorrect. iOS devices require an actual computer with iTunes to sync firmware or application specific data, or to do backups/restores... so while you can do the most basic of tasks without, to actually fully use an iOS device, you need an actual computer.

Like, for instance a Windows 8 Tablet, which can quite happily fully sync/support an Ipad.
 

hpod

macrumors member
Oct 22, 2012
30
3
Incorrect. iOS devices require an actual computer with iTunes to sync firmware or application specific data, or to do backups/restores... so while you can do the most basic of tasks without, to actually fully use an iOS device, you need an actual computer.

Like, for instance a Windows 8 Tablet, which can quite happily fully sync/support an Ipad.

What's incorrect is your post. It's clearly based on outdated knowledge of the subject matter. iOS devices haven't required an actual computer or iTunes for well over a year at this point. Every last thing you've mentioned can be done via iCloud, with no PC, MAC, or iTunes.
 
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BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,763
10,890
Incorrect. iOS devices require an actual computer with iTunes to sync firmware or application specific data, or to do backups/restores... so while you can do the most basic of tasks without, to actually fully use an iOS device, you need an actual computer.

None of that is true.
 

pundit

macrumors regular
Mar 18, 2007
114
0
Well... correct me if I'm wrong but iCloud only allows for 5GB of free storage? So you have to pay a subscription to use that if you have a lot more of non-itunes specific stuff? Like for instance movies you upload?

If that's true, then iOS isn't truly independent.
 

Michael Goff

Suspended
Jul 5, 2012
13,329
7,421
Number of those devices that require iTunes and a PC to charge/sync = 0



I think windows 8 is a pretty clear admission that mobile and desktop are not completely unrelated. :D

I think you're comparing software sales of a desktop/laptop/tablet OS to actual tablets and smartphones. You know, software to hardware. To compare the two makes about as much sense as comparing Mac sales to i7 processor sales. :|

Edit: Also, good luck moving multiple GB worth of music to your iPhone in a timely fashion without iTunes on a PC.
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,763
10,890
Well... correct me if I'm wrong but iCloud only allows for 5GB of free storage? So you have to pay a subscription to use that if you have a lot more of non-itunes specific stuff? Like for instance movies you upload?

If that's true, then iOS isn't truly independent.

That's one of the bigger stretches I've seen in this forum. :D

If a device doesn't have unlimited, free storage it "isn't truly independent"? :rolleyes:
 

pundit

macrumors regular
Mar 18, 2007
114
0
That's one of the bigger stretches I've seen in this forum. :D

If a device doesn't have unlimited, free storage it "isn't truly independent"? :rolleyes:

Considering the minimum storage on a device is 16GB, no. If iCloud was truly an independent from iTunes solution, it would include enough storage free-of-charge, to sync the whole device.
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,763
10,890
I think you're comparing software sales of a desktop/laptop/tablet OS to actual tablets and smartphones. You know, software to hardware. To compare the two makes about as much sense as comparing Mac sales to i7 processor sales. :|

I think the actual comparison was a mobile OS to a desktop OS. Is that too confusing?

Edit: Also, good luck moving multiple GB worth of music to your iPhone in a timely fashion without iTunes on a PC.

Moving it from where?

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Considering the minimum storage on a device is 16GB, no. If iCloud was truly an independent from iTunes solution, it would include enough storage free-of-charge, to sync the whole device.

Hey, look, you just made up an arbitrary requirement! Do all your PCs come with built in, free online backup?

Again, you are just uninformed of how iOS devices works. I currently have two iOS devices that are almost full. Backups take 1.7 GB of my iCloud storage.
 

Michael Goff

Suspended
Jul 5, 2012
13,329
7,421
I think the actual comparison was a mobile OS to a desktop OS. Is that too confusing?



Moving it from where?

Oh cool, I can buy iOS? Amazing, point to me where I can buy iOS on a non-commodity device.

Wait, you don't buy iOS. You buy the commodity device. Is that too confusing for you? You compare SOFTWARE sales to SOFTWARE sales. You don't compare iPhone and iPad sales (hardware) to Windows 8 sales (software).



Oh, that's right, you can't rip CDs on anything other than a PC. Guess we'll just have to will the music from our CDs onto our iDevices. We surely don't need a PC to help us get it to there.

:rolleyes:
 

pundit

macrumors regular
Mar 18, 2007
114
0
Hey, look, you just made up an arbitrary requirement! Do all your PCs come with built in, free online backup?

Again, you are just uninformed of how iOS devices works. I currently have two iOS devices that are almost full. Backups take 1.7 GB of my iCloud storage.

Windows PC's can use actual networking, and have filesystem access via that, whether that is wireless or otherwise. No intermediate iCloud service required. There are many different backup/syncing solutions... so no walled-garden subscription service required.

If you want you can even connect an external hard drive to a W8 Tablet.

The only way that you can fully sync and so forth on an iOS device is via their service... which comes with limited storage amounts, and is subscription based.

As for your storage needs? You might use 1.7Gb. I have 4 bluray rips on an Ipad and thats a little more than 30Gb. So just a touch more than 5Gb.
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,763
10,890
Oh cool, I can buy iOS? Amazing, point to me where I can buy iOS on a non-commodity device.

Brilliant sarcasm!

Wait, you don't buy iOS. You buy the commodity device. Is that too confusing for you?

Yep. You buy the device which is bundled with software. Doesn't mean you didn't buy the software. Copies of Windows 8 that came bundled with a PC were counted as well. Nothing unfair in the comparison.

You compare SOFTWARE sales to SOFTWARE sales. You don't compare iPhone and iPad sales (hardware) to Windows 8 sales (software).

I can choose to compare anything I like. Even apples and oranges. Did you know that oranges are more acidic than apples?

Oh, that's right, you can't rip CDs on anything other than a PC. Guess we'll just have to will the music from our CDs onto our iDevices. We surely don't need a PC to help us get it to there.

Yep. Same way you can't rip a CD on a MacBook Air.

Windows PC's can use actual networking, and have filesystem access via that, whether that is wireless or otherwise. No intermediate iCloud service required. There are many different backup/syncing solutions... so no walled-garden subscription service required.

If you want you can even connect an external hard drive to a W8 Tablet.

Yep. PCs and Macs have different features that iOS devices. Nobody is arguing this point.

The only way that you can fully sync and so forth on an iOS device is via their service... which comes with limited storage amounts, and is subscription based.

As for your storage needs? You might use 1.7Gb. I have 4 bluray rips on an Ipad and thats a little more than 30Gb. So just a touch more than 5Gb.

Again, you are simply not well informed on how to use an iOS device. There are many services that you can use to sync data to and from the device.

And none of that changes the fact that iTunes and a PC are not required for use of iOS devices.
 

AppleScruff1

macrumors G4
Feb 10, 2011
10,026
2,949
Who are you to say what can be compared? I didn't make up the claim. Multiple posters in this thread have said that more people use windows 8 than OS X. I'm looking for evidence as to whether or not its true.

I can choose to compare anything I like. Even apples and oranges. Did you know that oranges are more acidic than apples?


A bit contradictory, no?
 

Michael Goff

Suspended
Jul 5, 2012
13,329
7,421
Brilliant sarcasm!



Yep. You buy the device which is bundled with software. Doesn't mean you didn't buy the software. Copies of Windows 8 that came bundled with a PC were counted as well. Nothing unfair in the comparison.

According to this logic, my Macs to i7 processors argument holds just as much water. Let me form the connection. You buy a Mac, that Mac has a processor. That processor could be an i7. Now let's compare all Mac sales to all i7 sales.

I can choose to compare anything I like. Even apples and oranges. Did you know that oranges are more acidic than apples?

And if you make bad comparisons, be prepared to be called on them.

Yep. Same way you can't rip a CD on a MacBook Air.

That's amazing, because I've ripped CDs and DVDs onto my Macbook Air. It just takes an accessory. iTunes will do the music, Handbrake for the movies. No matter what accessory I get for my iPad, though, it can't do it.

Again, you are simply not well informed on how to use an iOS device. There are many services that you can use to sync data to and from the device.

And none of that changes the fact that iTunes and a PC are not required for use of iOS devices.

The amazing thing is that, looking back at the comment you responded with the "I don't need a PC for my iDevice" with wasn't even arguing it. They were saying that you can't sync an iDevice with an iDevice. They were pointing out that you can't do as much with them as you can with a laptop. And they're right, you can't.

There we go, I suppose you'll probably just answer with "nuh uh", though.
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,763
10,890
A bit contradictory, no?

Where's the contradiction? I made the exact same point in both cases. I can choose to compare any two things. You can choose to compare any two things.

The first poster I was responded to can compare Windows 8 to Mountain Lion if he wants. No problem. It just wasn't the answer to the question that I was asking.

According to this logic, my Macs to i7 processors argument holds just as much water. Let me form the connection. You buy a Mac, that Mac has a processor. That processor could be an i7. Now let's compare all Mac sales to all i7 sales.

Okay. What's the problem?

And if you make bad comparisons, be prepared to be called on them.

What's bad about comparing the distribution of a mobile OS to a desktop OS?

That's amazing, because I've ripped CDs and DVDs onto my Macbook Air. It just takes an accessory. iTunes will do the music, Handbrake for the movies. No matter what accessory I get for my iPad, though, it can't do it.

Yep. A Mac has more features than a iPad. Is this a surprise?

The amazing thing is that, looking back at the comment you responded with the "I don't need a PC for my iDevice" with wasn't even arguing it. They were saying that you can't sync an iDevice with an iDevice. They were pointing out that you can't do as much with them as you can with a laptop. And they're right, you can't.

I don't know what you are referencing here.
 

AppleScruff1

macrumors G4
Feb 10, 2011
10,026
2,949
Where's the contradiction? I made the exact same point in both cases. I can choose to compare any two things. You can choose to compare any two things.

The first poster I was responded to can compare Windows 8 to Mountain Lion if he wants. No problem. It just wasn't the answer to the question that I was asking.

You said, "Who are you to say what can be compared?"

Then you said "I can choose to compare anything I like."

Please explain to me how that means the same thing.
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,763
10,890
You said, "Who are you to say what can be compared?"

Context is everything. That was in response to the poster saying that I couldn't compare windows 8 usage to Mac usage. He said that I can only compare it to Mountain Lion usage.

As I said, I have no problem if he wants to compare win 8 to ML. I was asking about a different comparison that had been made multiple times earlier in the thread.

Then you said "I can choose to compare anything I like."

Please explain to me how that means the same thing.

In both cases I was making the point that anyone can choose to compare anything. (Doesn't mean all comparisons are interesting or fair, of course. :))
 
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