Motorola, The G4 and PowerBook Updates

[SiliconAddict]

Its pretty simple. I won't be a “switcher” until the PowerBook has a G5. If that takes 6 month, a year, a decade I'll wait. I'm more then happy to stick with my Dell Latitude until then.
I think Apple is going to keep people from converting simply because of the speed difference of the G4 vs the G5. They have hyped up (OK hype might not be the right word.) the G5 so high that people’s expectations are that a G5 in a PowerBook is the next natural step. Anything less is going to put people off and possibly make them wait. I think PowerBook sales are going to suffer until a G5 shows up. IMHO of course.

 

[nydoofus]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Its pretty simple. I won't be a “switcher” until the PowerBook has a G5. If that takes 6 month, a year, a decade I'll wait. I'm more then happy to stick with my Dell Latitude until then.
I think Apple is going to keep people from converting simply because of the speed difference of the G4 vs the G5. They have hyped up (OK hype might not be the right word.) the G5 so high that people’s expectations are that a G5 in a PowerBook is the next natural step. Anything less is going to put people off and possibly make them wait. I think PowerBook sales are going to suffer until a G5 shows up. IMHO of course.

Now... what if they advertise 7 hours of battery life? =)

 

[kikimus]

My guess is that Apple has a bit of inventory in the 12" and 17" powerbooks to be making any overnight changes. Not sure if anyone can comment on how this type of thing went down in the past.... ie a bump in speed / bus overnight on a (relatively) new line. Apple has been pretty cautious about not doing an Atari and having to firesale their old inventory.

My last discussion with an Apple rep (for what it's worth), the 15" Ti model was not selling too well. Most people were going for the 12" for the AL case and minor *cough* improvements (most are prolly unaware of L3 cache issues). If the new G4 is pin compatible with the old one, what in hell is holding up the 15" update (case, video, superdrive speed, etc...) if they are just going to switch processors. If they are coming and the Ti sales are sluggish, Apple should announce that they "are on the way" true, they may cause some people to not buy the 12" and wait for the 15", but you might also cause some people like myself who are ready to "Switch" to Wintel to hold on to hope.

Say what you want about how great the G4 is supposed to be, but it blows me away how Apple can pull off lowering the processor speed on a two year old G4 chip (from 1ghz to 867), kill the L3 cache, neuter the video and the RAM expandability and market it as part of the "Year of the Laptop". The 17" other than having a damn big screen is not a portable IMO. I am not argueing that the G4 is not a good processer, but I'm getting tired of waiting for a "revised" 15" and my eyes are starting to roam (as I suspect many are) to Wintel machines (which I will promptly run SuSE 8.2 on).

IMHO I don't think Apple really has a mass appeal laptop right now. You can point to the sales records for the 12". These are mainly the people updating from the G3's or older G4's. Sure the old 15" is not a bad alternative, but the sales pitch of "Welcome to the Apple Store, would you like to buy a 2 and a half year old laptop, with outdated video, a slower superdrive, and no airport extreme" is lost on me.

 

[MhzDoesMatter]

Geezus Kriste

No one even knew about the "G5" until a week ago. "Everyone wants a g5"? I just want a fast computer that works. And G4's work. But having swallowed hazardous amounts of Kool-Aid, every one now thinks the G5 is the de facto standard for acceptable performance. But odds are, none of u have even seen one.

I've seen a G4, a 550 Mhz G4 in a Titanium PowerBook. And if a G4 with twice the clock speed can do twice as much as this one, then screw the G5. That's all I need in a portable. That's all almost anyone needs in a portable.

Find a better way to measure your genitals than with a computer.


-Hertz

 

[erova]

man i hear you guys....

i sold my rev A g4 500 last week thinking that sooner or later apple might think it's a good idea to replace an outdated machine...

i really can't believe they even keep the 15" for sale on the web site... if anyone bought one of those i'd love to pitch a great bridge in brooklyn that has their name allllllll over it...

 

[kikimus]

I don't even care if the new 15" has a 1Ghz G4. As long as it has the new case, updated superdrive & airport extreme.

I think it is an embarrasment that they have the old 15" sitting on the website between the 2 new powerbooks, it ought to be on the "bargains" page.

The G4 is fine (although a speed bump is long overdue). They just need to update the 15" ASAP.

 

[slightlyoff]

Re: Geezus Kriste

Originally posted by MhzDoesMatter
I've seen a G4, a 550 Mhz G4 in a Titanium PowerBook. And if a G4 with twice the clock speed can do twice as much as this one, then screw the G5. That's all I need in a portable. That's all almost anyone needs in a portable.

Find a better way to measure your genitals than with a computer.

Hertz, didn't anyone tell you that rational thought and objective decision making based on real-life personal criteria aren't allowed in these forums?

Hrm...someone needs to forward you the memo ;-)

 

[OlorintheJedi]

"Year of the Laptop"

Are we sure Steve really said 2003 was the "year of the laptop" at MWSF? Maybe what he really meant was "it will be a year till there's new laptops".

For what it's worth, I'm waiting for a G5 PowerBook to upgrade. If it takes a year, so be it. I can live with my G4 500 until then.

G5 PB -> I buy one
No G5 BP -> I don't buy one

Genital measurement or not, I doubt I'm alone.

 

[u2mr2os2]

Bait for Switch

The G5 is the chip many PC users will take note of as being worthy to even consider switching as it is what has caught up with Intel - not the G4. Nevermind for most tasks, a good G4 may be fine - the marketing reality is the G5 is the switcher chip.

So, keeping it as the exclusive top end chip is not going to collect many switchers. The laptop scene is not bad given Intel's blunder with Centrino. In other words, the G4 can still work for the "Pro" laptop for a while given that no one expects the laptop to equal the desktop performance. The coming G4s from Moto look to fit the bill of some speed improvement without frying laps.

What has to change is the stupid product pecking order where the iMac has to be slower than any PowerBook. The iMac is a switcher machine. Keeping it behind the PowerBooks AND the PowerMacs is to keep it from being attractive to switchers unless it gets cheaper.

So, with the G5 not going into a laptop anytime soon, do switchers have to wait forever for the pro laptops to get G5s before the iMac gets an increase?

 

[Roller]

Like many others, I'm in the market for a new PB (my Lombard is really showing its age - LOL).

The 17" isn't a laptop to me. I'd consider it only if I wanted one Mac to use on the desktop and on the road (and only if I could fly first class every time). The 12" is a bit too small and slow for my needs.

That leaves the 15", which should be Apple's mainstream PB. But I'm not about to buy one until it gets a serious update. I can live without a 970, but a 1.X GHz G4 would be a requirement.

I wonder what Apple's PB unit sales are these days. They can't be selling too many 17" models, and the 12" is probably selling OK, but not great.

 

[hacurio1]

Originally posted by nydoofus
Now... what if they advertise 7 hours of battery life? =)

Then I'll buy one!

 

[slightlyoff]

Re: Bait for Switch

Originally posted by u2mr2os2
The laptop scene is not bad given Intel's blunder with Centrino.

What makes you think it's a blunder? The fact of the matter is that ratcheting up the core clock speed without the attendant infrastructure (e.g., more cache, faster buses, faster disk, etc...) is just a way to build a very expensive lap warmer. Centrino isn't a mistake, it's Intel giving their customers what they want: laptops that have the battery life of a Mac without having to ditch their OS (in my case, Linux and OpenBSD). For a long time, a Mac was they only way to get real portability out of your portable, and it was good for Apple's business. Now there is broad parity again, leaving the market to sort itself out based on other criteria.

Intel didn't make a mistake, but they made a choice they were forced into (and one I'm sure their engineers were only to glad to finally be able to exercise). Calling Centrino a blunder demonstrates a fundamental missunderstanding of the requirements of most people in the market for laptops (not just Apple laptops).

 

[Apple //e]

Originally posted by slightlyoff
Oh boy...here we go.

"Centrino" is a marketing name and Trademark registered by Intel for the express purpose of getting OEM's and VAR's to purchase both the Pentium 3M and their 802.11b chipset. There is no "Centrino" chip, as such. There _is_ however a set of WiFi and CPU combinations which may be certified to carry the "Centrino" brand name.

That said, only the Pentium3M is currently available under the Centrino name (NOT the P4M). The P3M takes many of the same design routes that allow the G4 to have anything like acceptable performance (big local cache, etc..) despite the accompanying ****ty IO subsystems of laptops and the need to clock mobile chips lower so they don't char your legs.

]

actually, its the pentium M, not p3m or p4m, just m. confusing? very much so to the average consumer.

 

[kikimus]

Centrino is not a blunder. The only issue is that Intel now has to justify a lower clocked processor as being superior to a higher clocked one. Intel is not putting these things in desktops. Benchmarks comparing the "m" processor to neutered laptop 4-M show that it indeed outperforms it.

Laptop buyers are not the speed-freak testosterone driven types that watch the Mhz as closely as desktop gamers. This holds true for Intel as well as Mac. I would also say this is one thing that has kept Apple in business with the Powerbooks. Battery life and acceptable performance is paramount, and the "m" processors do provide this.

I love my Mac, but lets not dilude ourselves here. Intel is a long way off from ever having to worry about feeling the hot breath of Apple on the back of their neck. Microsoft is the one that has to worry, as they have it coming at them from all sides.

 

[GetSome681]

Originally posted by MattG
I agree. As a 1+ year Mac user, that's probably the thing that frustrates me the most (well, that and the lack of an eject button on the CD-ROM drives, but that's a whole other thread). I buy something, and then six months later it's obsolete, and there's NOTHING I can do to it. At least with my PC, I can rip out the processor and stick a new one in there.

yeah buddy...b/c you can EASILY just take the processor out of your PC LAPTOP and just stick in a new one. we're talking laptops here, not desktops (the PMacs can be upgraded, although it's expensive)

 

[GetSome681]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Its pretty simple. I won't be a “switcher” until the PowerBook has a G5. If that takes 6 month, a year, a decade I'll wait. I'm more then happy to stick with my Dell Latitude until then.
I think Apple is going to keep people from converting simply because of the speed difference of the G4 vs the G5. They have hyped up (OK hype might not be the right word.) the G5 so high that people’s expectations are that a G5 in a PowerBook is the next natural step. Anything less is going to put people off and possibly make them wait. I think PowerBook sales are going to suffer until a G5 shows up. IMHO of course.

wait, it's the next natural step? omg no way man! maybe you should email and call apple and tell them.

dude, if you think apple doesn't know this, well then...i'll refrain from calling you names...but come on, of course they know this. They will release the G5 PowerBook in due time and when it's ready. Holding off on it does nothing but hurt them, and they know that.

 

[the_wallcrawler]

I don't know about everyone else but the reason I will use a Mac for the rest of my life is the OS. A lot of people here seem so concerned about speeds that some are considering "switching" to the other side. Any speed improvements you are going to see from buying a PC over say an aging, year old 1ghz tibook are going to be vastly overshadowed by all the extra pain that will be caused by the windows OS. Just my opinion but I would rather wait 3 more seconds for my photoshop effect to render on my tibook than deal with a PC. Now having said that, yes, Apple needs to do something about the Powerbooks. They are in need of an update. G5? Not for a long, long time.

 

[novicegeek]

Re: "Year of the Laptop"

Originally posted by OlorintheJedi
Are we sure Steve really said 2003 was the "year of the laptop" at MWSF? Maybe what he really meant was "it will be a year till there's new laptops".

For what it's worth, I'm waiting for a G5 PowerBook to upgrade. If it takes a year, so be it. I can live with my G4 500 until then.

G5 PB -> I buy one
No G5 BP -> I don't buy one

Genital measurement or not, I doubt I'm alone. [/QUOTE]


I'm one of the many people on this board who seems to have bought a revision A Powerbook G4 in early 2001 (400 Mhz, 10gb harddrive) thinking at the time that it was "perfectly fine" (a term I see used frequently on this board by saner people who are getting tired of this silly whining about a need for speed that almost no one needs on a home computer.) If I were to upgrade to one of the current powerbooks, I'd probably be just fine for a long long time, but it's still a bad proposition to have to make when you've already bought one of these things, only to find out fairly quickly that you were in need of more memory, more disk space, a CD Burner, OS X, Airport Extreme, ie a new machine, once. And should I upgrade now, I don't even get a new design on the model or a new chip. No fun.

 

[wizard]

Re: Re: 15" PB update: NOT

I don't think of it as getting hot and bothered over the processor, what I think we are seeing here it the rather slow rate of performance increase year on year upsetting people.

What is interesting is that a new G4 with an enhanced cache, faster front side bus and a 30% increase in cycle rate has a reasonable chance of comig very close to the G5 as far as integer performance goes. For got the site, but some one normalized g4 integer performance at 100, the g5 managed 170. Now I have no idea how the scale was set up and bench marks are bench marks but this does indicate that we could see a rather impressive performance boost in a laptop using these new G4. They probally won't exceed the G5 by any means but might come closer than some may expect.

So yeah I can see why someone would want to know what is going in the next laptop rev. The potential is for a significant boost in performance. That is worth waiting for.

Dave

Originally posted by StuPid QPid
Fair enough, but it doesn't mean they can't be equal, as is the case at the moment with the 1 GHz. Admittedly the 17" has a few more bells and whistles (e.g. airport extreme, FW800, Bluetooth built-in etc.)

My guess is they'll update the whole line with the new G4 (MPC7457) with a 1 GHz in the 12", 1Ghz and 1.3 GhZ in the 15.4" and 1.3 GhZ in the 17" - For me that's a nice line up, very tempting...but when????

Anyway why does everyone get so hot and bothered about what type of processor is in their machine? As long as it runs fast, and runs the apps I want e.g. Mac OS X and the iApps of course, then what's the problem. All Macs are at the end of the day are a box to run Mac OS X. What I don't like is buying a Mac, then seeing it updated two weeks later...

 

[weev]

Originally posted by moosecat
I'm going to give in to the little devil on my shoulder and buy a 12". If it's going to be July, I'll surrender to the little angel on my shoulder and wait it out.

I like the 12" too BUT it does not support Apple flat screen displays (no ADC or DVI) -- this puzzles me greatly because is not the ultimate system a sub-notenook that can run your 20" display -- is that not the best of both worlds (and a way to sell two premium price tagged items)!?

From my rumour research (and yes, we down under spell rumour this way), we could get a 12" with ADC capability in the update. Add 1Ghz+ speed, faster bus and better video card and I am there!

And BTW, that 'Year of the Laptop' guff was a way to deflect attention away from the ordinary G4 towers.

Now it should be: YEAR OF THE KICKASS DESKTOP

 

[Eric-C]

Originally posted by the_wallcrawler
I don't know about everyone else but the reason I will use a Mac for the rest of my life is the OS. A lot of people here seem so concerned about speeds that some are considering "switching" to the other side. Any speed improvements you are going to see from buying a PC over say an aging, year old 1ghz tibook are going to be vastly overshadowed by all the extra pain that will be caused by the windows OS. Just my opinion but I would rather wait 3 more seconds for my photoshop effect to render on my tibook than deal with a PC. Now having said that, yes, Apple needs to do something about the Powerbooks. They are in need of an update. G5? Not for a long, long time.

Actually, I'm more excited about switching because of Panther than a G5. However, I don't think it's very logical to use Panther on, say, a TiBook, simply because Apple has the privilege to design an OS for specific hardware. Consequently, Panther will run best on the technology that is built with Panther in mind.

That said, I really hope something happens soon.

 

[wizard]

My geuss is that Apple is waiting on ATI to get their next generation mobile chip on the market.

They may also be debugging the chip set for the new processor. If you have a new frontside bus your going to need a new support chip. But I'm still leaning towards the ATI chip as the problem. In other words it hasn't seen the light of day on a PC compatable either.

Dave

Originally posted by kikimus
My guess is that Apple has a bit of inventory in the 12" and 17" powerbooks to be making any overnight changes. Not sure if anyone can comment on how this type of thing went down in the past.... ie a bump in speed / bus overnight on a (relatively) new line. Apple has been pretty cautious about not doing an Atari and having to firesale their old inventory.

My last discussion with an Apple rep (for what it's worth), the 15" Ti model was not selling too well. Most people were going for the 12" for the AL case and minor *cough* improvements (most are prolly unaware of L3 cache issues). If the new G4 is pin compatible with the old one, what in hell is holding up the 15" update (case, video, superdrive speed, etc...) if they are just going to switch processors. If they are coming and the Ti sales are sluggish, Apple should announce that they "are on the way" true, they may cause some people to not buy the 12" and wait for the 15", but you might also cause some people like myself who are ready to "Switch" to Wintel to hold on to hope.

Say what you want about how great the G4 is supposed to be, but it blows me away how Apple can pull off lowering the processor speed on a two year old G4 chip (from 1ghz to 867), kill the L3 cache, neuter the video and the RAM expandability and market it as part of the "Year of the Laptop". The 17" other than having a damn big screen is not a portable IMO. I am not argueing that the G4 is not a good processer, but I'm getting tired of waiting for a "revised" 15" and my eyes are starting to roam (as I suspect many are) to Wintel machines (which I will promptly run SuSE 8.2 on).

IMHO I don't think Apple really has a mass appeal laptop right now. You can point to the sales records for the 12". These are mainly the people updating from the G3's or older G4's. Sure the old 15" is not a bad alternative, but the sales pitch of "Welcome to the Apple Store, would you like to buy a 2 and a half year old laptop, with outdated video, a slower superdrive, and no airport extreme" is lost on me.

 

[wizard]

Last I new Panther was for all g3 and g4 machines also.

The issue with most apple computers these days and any version of OS/x is that they ship the machines with far to little memory. I got sundays CompUSA flier and they are advertising the "new" g3 I book with 128MB of ram. Lets face it thats a little thin for any Unix like operating system, its extremely thing for the uses that most Mac hardware is applied to.

The G5 seem to demonstrate this failing with Apple rather well.

Dave

Originally posted by Eric-C
Actually, I'm more excited about switching because of Panther than a G5. However, I don't think it's very logical to use Panther on, say, a TiBook, simply because Apple has the privilege to design an OS for specific hardware. Consequently, Panther will run best on the technology that is built with Panther in mind.

That said, I really hope something happens soon.

 

[Eric-C]

Originally posted by wizard
Last I new Panther was for all g3 and g4 machines also.

My point was that new hardware would probably be more suited to use a new OS. After all, with such a large amount of clock speed available in the G5 PM, it is inevitable that Panther will take advange of it so *some* degree. Since the 15" will most likely be released with Panther, it will give Apple the opportunity to test it out. They is no way they could sell it if it didn't work. However, the older models were designed with Jaguar in mind. If for some reason (and I'm not saying there is) Panther does not work on the older models, adjustments may have to be created on the upgrade version, most likely limiting some features.

POINT:

new 15" specs > old 15" specs (hopefully)

Panther performance on new specs > Panther performance on old specs (most likely)

Therefore,

Panther performance on new 15" > Panther performance on old 15"

That's all. I didn't mean to imply that Panther would not work on older models.

 

[the_wallcrawler]

Originally posted by wizard
Last I new Panther was for all g3 and g4 machines also.

The issue with most apple computers these days and any version of OS/x is that they ship the machines with far to little memory. I got sundays CompUSA flier and they are advertising the "new" g3 I book with 128MB of ram. Lets face it thats a little thin for any Unix like operating system, its extremely thing for the uses that most Mac hardware is applied to.

The G5 seem to demonstrate this failing with Apple rather well.

Dave

i totally agree. isn't 256 the recomended min for running jaguar?