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Casiotone

macrumors 6502a
Oct 12, 2008
825
111
There are a lot of people in the world who like to reverse-engineer and look at the data being transmitted by apps and system processes.

If anyone could find that it did transmit the fingerprint data to a server, Apple couldn't just say "oops it was a bug" because the Touch ID security model, up to its circuitry is in principle designed to make this data impossible to read.

Believing that there will be a conspiracy to silence (kill?) anyone who can find this data being transmitted outside the phone is borderline paranoia.
 

repoman27

macrumors 6502
May 13, 2011
485
167
I made it clear that I was referring to original post alluding that the technology is able to scan your fingers... not physically accessing and fingerprinting the device.

Did you actually read my posts? I made that abundantly clear.

No ***** that if you touch your phone and they physically get hold of it that they can get your fingerprints. That is a completely different argument altogether. They can also get fingerprints from anything else I touch. Duh!

So, just to set the record straight here, Jordon Golson posted excerpts from Senator Al Franken's letter to Apple in which he posed a series of idiotic questions which clearly demonstrated his lack of grasp on the technology, inability to read or accept Apple's very clear statements regarding Touch ID, and basically amounted to nothing more than blatant media whoring. According to Golson, one of those questions was:

- If it's possible to extract and obtain fingerprint data from an iPhone 5s either remotely or with physical access to the device.

To which I commented:

I'm pretty sure that if you have physical access to a touchscreen device, there are ways to get the owner's fingerprint data—even if the device lacks a fingerprint scanner.

After several commenters over-thought that statement way too hard and replied that I was somehow wrong, I pointed out that:

My screen picks up fingerprints CONSTANTLY.

Dusting for fingerprints is a technique that has been around for some time now. We leave our fingerprint data on thousands of surfaces every day, many of which are publicly accessible. You probably leave a fair amount of other biological data in bodily secretions on everything you're in contact with, so it's not just fingerprint data you leave behind.

Both Apple and your mobile operator know your name, date of birth, address, email address, credit card number, likely current location, browsing history, musical preferences, who you communicate with and how, and your voice print, and they store this data on their servers with your blessing. They also store the hashes of your account passwords, and since most people aren't terribly creative, they probably have the hash to the password you use for every other account you've ever set up. Why in the heck would you care if they associated fingerprint data with your device (which they don't) anyway? If you're concerned, just don't turn on Touch ID (there is no requirement to do so). Although you'll probably continue to leave Photo Stream turned on so every selfie that might portray you in some immodest, compromising, or legally questionable circumstances is immediately pumped directly to Apple's cloud servers.

Asking questions like these about Touch ID is such classic misdirection. If you so much as leave the house these days it is likely that your image will be captured by hundreds of cameras. An image of your fingerprint is nothing special, it's just a close-up shot of one part of your body. The footage captured by the myriad cameras in our daily lives can tell anyone with access to it far more about you than what the folds in one tiny patch of your skin can.

So how long until we have capacitive touch gloves with randomly generated fingertip patterning so we can use Touch ID anonymously or in colder climates?
 

axual

macrumors regular
Oct 31, 2007
214
4
This is rich ...

This is rich ...

Franken's real concern is a technology that the government can't crack. Privacy has been going out the window for a long time and the Federal Government is one of the biggest problems.

Nice try Al.
 

r3dsh1ft

macrumors newbie
Oct 13, 2011
28
0
Los Angeles, CA
i think the bigger concern here is that if touch ID begins to get implemented in more devices, to the point where it's with everything we do (our cars, homes, etc) and third parties, hackers or the govt can lock us out of our houses, cars, and keep us from using our phones.

our fingerprints can be denied.
that is a scary thought.
and the iphone 5S is the first step towards this ecosystem.
 

nia820

macrumors 68020
Jun 27, 2011
2,131
1,980
My biggest concern with this fingerprint security is that theives are going to start chopping our fingers off.
 

Renzatic

Suspended
I always wonder how it is we seem to vote in the worst people year after year after year. Now I know.

A lot of people love being angry. Love hearing the sounds of their own voice. And a lot of them love doing so with only assumptions and half heard facts to base their reasoning upon.

"PRISM? Why that's the government! A senator is talking about something? WELL I'M JUST GONNA GET MAD AND MAKE BLANKET STATEMENTS ABOUT SPYING"!

...or the shorter version:

"You think the government does a good job maintaining the highways? YEAH? EXPLAIN THE NSA"!

----------

My biggest concern with this fingerprint security is that theives are going to start chopping our fingers off.

I kinda doubt it. Most smartphone thefts are snatch 'n split type crimes. They'll wait for a moment when you're not paying much attention to anything, then *pfft*, your phone's out of your hands, and they're out the door. It's either that or pickpocketing.

Cutting off fingers? I'm not speaking from experience here, but I'd imagine doing something like that would be a rather drawn out affair. They'll be all thrashing around, and you'd have to get someone to hold them down, and then they'll be squirming, and screaming, and bleeding all over the place. Basically drawing a ton of attention to themselves. I mean hell, if they're gonna go that far, they might as well just shoot you dead and do the deed afterwards. Something I doubt a lot of thieves would do, considering they wouldn't want to face life in prison for a $600-$700 smartphone.

Unless you're a spy transporting secret documents on your phone across enemy lines, I don't think anyone here should start worrying about their finger health.
 
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thetruest

macrumors regular
Oct 21, 2012
131
0
where did these idiots come from

The guy raises some legitimate points, and took the time to even highlight the fact that Apple has developed this with a conscious and responsibly, despite being obviously older and also from the performance world hence probably not as technically inclined. And he is known as one of the better/more honest politicians in congress for people, and his electorate.

The pictures posted by some retard/hillbilly (crow) were from when he was a comedian - his prior career obviously (check his days of drivin Bill O'Reilly insane) - as if they should exclude him from "serious" office. If anything, it should be a good thing, especially depending on the brand of comedy (political satire? social relevance, etc. etc). Many comedians were great thinkers and writers, and have a social conscious. But there are too many goddamn worthless idiots posting in this thread for some reason, and taking the opportunity to thumbs up each others ass and circle jerk about BS.
 
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iVoid

macrumors 65816
Jan 9, 2007
1,145
190
Um... I'd think the fingerprints that end up on the glass surfaces would be easier to obtain that the encrypted data on the device.
 

Blue Fox

macrumors 6502a
Apr 13, 2009
514
71
The guy raises some legitimate points, and took the time to even highlight the fact that Apple has developed this with a conscious and responsibly, despite being obviously older and also from the performance world hence probably not as technically inclined. And he is known as one of the better/more honest politicians in congress for people, and his electorate.

The pictures posted by some retard/hillbilly (crow) were from when he was a comedian - his prior career obviously (check his days of drivin Bill O'Reilly insane) - as if they should exclude him from "serious" office. If anything, it should be a good thing, especially depending on the brand of comedy (political satire? social relevance, etc. etc). Many comedians were great thinkers and writers, and have a social conscious. But there are too many goddamn worthless idiots posting in this thread for some reason, and taking the opportunity to thumbs up each others ass and circle jerk about BS.

Al Franken.........is "known" to be a "better/more honest politician in congress for people"? :confused: I've been watching him for years, he is just as corrupt and dishonest as the rest of the yahoo's up on Capitol Hill. (that goes for BOTH sides of the aisle).
 

nascimento

macrumors regular
Jun 15, 2010
151
0
Someone is waking up...about time too

better late than never

----------

I am far more concerned about the NSA and the issue of spying then I am of some company. A company has to actually respond to the customer. Whereas the government does not give a rats ass.

You should be concerned with BOTH as one does not work without the other. Its Tech that has provided government with the data. Dont understand how you can disassociate one from the other.
 

krewger

macrumors regular
Sep 28, 2012
103
96
I'm disturbed. This senator acts like Apple is the first company to use finger print scanning technology. They are one of the last major tech companies to show up to the game, he needs to sit down shut up and pay attention better.

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i think the bigger concern here is that if touch ID begins to get implemented in more devices, to the point where it's with everything we do (our cars, homes, etc) and third parties, hackers or the govt can lock us out of our houses, cars, and keep us from using our phones.

our fingerprints can be denied.
that is a scary thought.
and the iphone 5S is the first step towards this ecosystem.

Typing from my iPhone 5s. This thing stil requires you to enter the same old pass code when powering on the device and still gives the option to enter a pass code to unlock. Finger print scanner is a supplemental quick way to do it. Actually I think I'm still faster at entering my pass code than waiting for my finger print to register.
 

Mike MA

macrumors 68020
Sep 21, 2012
2,089
1,811
Germany
Ok, removed my previous thoughts as I don't want to comment on the protection of data privacy by US federal institutions.
 

ianogden

macrumors member
Aug 4, 2006
38
0
London
Fingerprint scanning is not a new thing in consumer electronics. As far back as 2006 I had a Lacie hard drive that was accessed via my fingerprint. Because Apple decide to do it, US senators and the general public seem to think its a privacy concern. Grow up and open your eyes!!
 

kdarling

macrumors P6
I'm disturbed. This senator acts like Apple is the first company to use finger print scanning technology. They are one of the last major tech companies to show up to the game, he needs to sit down shut up and pay attention better.

The differences are in the scale of adoption, and the heightened level of public interest in smartphone security.

As Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Privacy, Technology and the Law, it is this Senator's responsibility to ask those reasonable questions on behalf of the public.

If anything, it's a golden opportunity for Apple to get tons of free publicity by answering the questions in such a way as to garner everyone's trust.

Personally, I'd like to know more about the implementation of the secure enclave. Security through obscurity will not last long.
 

EDL

macrumors newbie
Sep 25, 2007
17
0
Suuuurre. They also said they were giving user data to PRISM as well. :rolleyes:

To a certain extent and under certain circumstances, like every other company in this country is mandated to do by law. You ought to read companies' privacy policies which clearly state that...
 

calaverasgrande

macrumors 65816
Oct 18, 2010
1,291
161
Brooklyn, New York.
Image
Image
Image

Yeah, lets take this guy seriously...
Yeah, so he was a comedic actor. Those are ROLES he played. Do you think Robert Downey jr can fly in a metal suit too?
Personally I never found him very funny, but it is stupid to act as if his career in comedy has any bearing on this particular issue or his politics.

----------

Al Franken.........is "known" to be a "better/more honest politician in congress for people"? :confused: I've been watching him for years, he is just as corrupt and dishonest as the rest of the yahoo's up on Capitol Hill. (that goes for BOTH sides of the aisle).
it is common courtesy when bashing a politician for corruption to cite an example which proves your point. Otherwise you are just blowing hot air.
EG: Bush/Cheney were corrupt politicians. They made many deals and signed legislation and executive orders which directly benefited companies they had a stake in. Such as the executive order which deregulated fracking. This benefits both Cheney and Bush as they have significant stakes in companies that supply fracking businesses, as well as a few of the fracking concerns.
Of course you could say the same for many of the Democrats in DC and the ACA. Nearly every congressman directly involved in that laws passage had a spouse in pharma or insurance. No surprise that it preserved the profit motive for Pharma and Insurers at the expense of patients and practitioners.
 

marksman

macrumors 603
Jun 4, 2007
5,764
5
Shouldn't we all assume anything can be cracked with enough time and effort?

Doesn't matter if it is cracked. All it would allow you to do is access the single device you just cracked to get access to it. Which essentially means you cracked the device to crack the security to access only that device. Not a very good use of time, once you cracked the device itself.
 

SactoGuy18

macrumors 601
Sep 11, 2006
4,358
1,515
Sacramento, CA USA
I'm disturbed. This senator acts like Apple is the first company to use finger print scanning technology. They are one of the last major tech companies to show up to the game, he needs to sit down shut up and pay attention better.

I'd almost agree, but what Apple is doing with the iPhone 5S is essentially mainstreaming this technology on a truly huge scale far beyond what we're seen from a few laptops and a few model smartphones that have nowhere near the potential market penetration Apple now enjoys.

As such, while I don't agree with most of Senator Franken's policies, he does raise some important questions about this use of fingerprint recognition technology.
 

marksman

macrumors 603
Jun 4, 2007
5,764
5
Franken is a complete idiot, and, like Jesse Ventura, is nothing but an embarrassment to any intelligent voter in Minnesota. He's the guy who has been attempting for years to promote card check and eliminate the secret ballot in union voting -- and how democratic is that? His letter to Apple, like mentioned upthread, amounts to nothing more than a pathetic attempt to showcase himself in front of Minnesota citizens who don't know any better.
Wow I did not know that. I am not a pro union guy at all but that is crazy.

I would laugh at Minnesota politics if I did not live in Texas where we currently have a crop of some of the worst politicians ever

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Yes, I do. He is a true public advocate and looks out for the interests of every day constituents. He is a model senator. Look at his record.

And now a blatant attention whore with an incompetent staff.
 

marksman

macrumors 603
Jun 4, 2007
5,764
5
....I think "clown" fits most of the posters here better than Franken.

Most of these requests are to put the information on the record, with as few intermediaries as possible. I doubt Franken is as technologically illiterate as posters make him out to be....but a great deal of his constituents almost certainly are. Playing the illiterate and getting the answers on record is certainly of service to his constituents.


No. He could have asked his questions within the context of the already available information in order to get even better and more complete answers. All he is doing here is being an ignorant attention whore and all apple has to do now is send them a copy of their published kb which answers all their questions.

If his intent is as you suggest he has failed horribly.
 

PeterQVenkman

macrumors 68020
Mar 4, 2005
2,023
0
While this guy has fought for consumers on a number of fronts (protesting the comcast buyout of NBC, and other tech savvy issues), I now find it extremely difficult to take anything a senator U.S. says about privacy seriously.

I would laugh at Minnesota politics if I did not live in Texas where we currently have a crop of some of the worst politicians ever

I guess the grass is always greener! Your governor is actively campaigning in my state to get business to move to Texas. And it's working.

As for fingerprints, my state will soon have mine on record and it will not be for committing a crime. It will be because I am a law abiding citizen and that's the new law.
 

Tysknaden

macrumors regular
Jun 19, 2013
198
0
I am far more concerned about the NSA and the issue of spying then I am of some company. A company has to actually respond to the customer. Whereas the government does not give a rats ass.

But Cook did have enough "rats ass", not to mention the NSA scandal with one single word, during his keynote.
 

croooow

macrumors 65816
Jul 16, 2004
1,044
206
Yeah, so he was a comedic actor. Those are ROLES he played. Do you think Robert Downey jr can fly in a metal suit too?
Personally I never found him very funny, but it is stupid to act as if his career in comedy has any bearing on this particular issue or his politics.

I was joking. If you see me starting a petition to get him out of office then you can get back on your soapbox and pretend you are better than me...
 

Newton70

macrumors regular
Sep 29, 2011
105
0
Dear Senator Franken,

Please crawl back under the rock whence you came.

Sincerely,

People sick of government intrusion.
 
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