Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

twietee

macrumors 603
Jan 24, 2012
5,300
1,675
A foreign body, the EU, has NO right to say otherwise.

You may want to look up what EU stands for, quite literally and with an emphasize on the "U" in "EU", whether Ireland is part of that or not and since when if yes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mailia

JimmyHook

macrumors 6502a
Apr 7, 2015
992
1,894
Boy if Tim keeps up this stance pretty soon he will be a libertarian. You mean a gigantic leviathan government will be dishonest and bend laws and requirements to get what thinks it's best for the elites who run it? Say it isn't so Timmy?!? However, philosophy aside in addition to fighting this legally you may want to pick up the phone, donate. Few million to the Clinton Foundation, a few million to Hillarys campaign so you can get some time with her and she can probably put some leverage on the EU for you. Unless they offer her more of course. But either way - probably less than 14 billion. You can buy a lot of politicians for 14 billion.
As long as it isn't the gas bag Drumpf who claimed Russia isn't in the Ukraine...
[doublepost=1472744607][/doublepost]
You may want to look up what EU stands for, quite literally and with an emphasize on the "U" in "EU", whether Ireland is part of that or not and since when.
That doesn't give them the right to redefine Irish law
[doublepost=1472744658][/doublepost]I hope Ireland abandons the EU for meddling in their internal affairs
 
  • Like
Reactions: thewap

danckwerts

macrumors regular
Jun 7, 2008
147
102
Richmond upon Thames
Large multinationals will always attempt to find ways to pay as little tax as possible – in fact, they have a duty to their shareholders to do so. The only way to prevent this is by international co-operation and that seems even less likely now the EU has annoyed the US government. The trouble with the EU's action is that it seems to be acting outside its own laws. This is, unfortunately, very common and one of the reasons I voted for Brexit. If the US government has any sense (sadly not much sign of that, and even less if Trump gets in), it will cut its corporate tax rate to something nearer that of other countries and increase its tax on investment income. I believe US corporation tax is currently 35% against Ireland's 12.5%. The UK has plans to reduce its to 15%. It seems to me that corporation tax (and, in some countries such as the UK, employers' national insurance) is a tax on employment and therefore undesirable.
 

Tamagotchi

macrumors 6502
Jun 13, 2013
369
412
Tim should be careful with what he says. I'm European and I take his comments as quite insulting.

Apple has been paying around 0.5% of the 12% taxes it should have paid throughout the last decade.

Normal citizens pay their taxes, corporations should too.

I call Apple BS as total legal crap.

Tim, stop acting like a thief and a crook.
 

Apple Knowledge Navigator

macrumors 68040
Mar 28, 2010
3,667
12,801
Does Tim have some sort of soundboard installed in his head? Any time Apple courts controversy, he's pre-programmed with "total political crap", "...like a cancer", "laser-focus", "Apple has always been about doing the right thing".

The last is a doozy. If Apple cared about doing the right thing, they would willingly reject the 0.005% tax rate and offer something more substantial; which wouldn't be too hard considering they have $200 billion. Alas, he continues to side-step the original argument and take us back to 1980, tell us about how many people are employed blah blah... Self righteousness at its finest.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lone Deranger

twietee

macrumors 603
Jan 24, 2012
5,300
1,675
That doesn't give them the right to redefine Irish law
[doublepost=1472744658][/doublepost]I hope Ireland abandons the EU for meddling in their internal affairs

Sure it does when considered breaking the EU law. EU law trumps national law when in question. And Ireland, as the souvereign country it is, joined the EU. And in case you didn't know: that predates their deal with Apple by quite some time (Jan. 1st 1973).
 

44267547

Cancelled
Jul 12, 2016
37,642
42,494
All this pressure on Apple and Cook right before the Keynote. No wonder why he is cashing out his stock options.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pat500000

JimmyHook

macrumors 6502a
Apr 7, 2015
992
1,894
No, Ireland is not a souvereign country with regards to state subsidies. They have signed several EU contracts that limit their freedom here for the good of fair competition.
This limits how corporations can plan. Apple entered into these agreements and planned financially around them. Now they are told, after the fact, that they can't. Imagine getting a bill from a utility company for an amount higher than what you agreed to because another group said your rate was unfair
 
  • Like
Reactions: adaeon and tgara

jnpy!$4g3cwk

macrumors 65816
Feb 11, 2010
1,119
1,302
Then the EU has been gullible fools for 30 years. Or... it's not as cut and dry as you think.

As I read through the various articles that people have pointed to on this subject, I am more confused than ever. It appears to me that Apple was doing something that was tolerated, perhaps even encouraged, by the EU early on. Nobody envisioned just how much cash would be accumulated so quickly by the iPhone. Instead of everybody jumping on Apple for deferring taxes, why not just change the rules now (not retroactively) and force Apple to book the profits somewhere within a year? And, inform Apple and Google and all the others that they can't accumulate such large wads of untaxed cash across fiscal year boundaries?

Instead of attacking Apple for making a profit, and trying to retroactively force Apple to book all the profits in Ireland, just fix the rules that created this problem.

Some posters on this thread have objected to what they view as Apple's obscene profits. AFAIK, nobody made anybody buy an iWatch or a Gucci handbag for that matter. I wish Apple would pay more attention to the Mac, and less on fashion accessories, but, we all, in all of these countries, have mixed economies, neither pure capitalism nor pure socialism. We depend on entrepreneurial capitalism to create new consumer goods (like the iPhone) and do most of the consumer-oriented innovation. Sometimes those companies make a lot of money for a little while-- it never lasts forever. I think we all, in all of these countries, should come up with a consistent method for taxing multinational corporations. Including, especially, a consistent way to deal with patents. Every box with an Apple product in it implicitly attributes all the design innovation to "California". Other companies, like the old, pre-Y2K HP (RIP), had labs all over the world. A consistent taxation policy would be able to handle both of these extremes and everything in the middle wrt patents and other (ahem) "intellectual property".
 

tgara

macrumors 65816
Jul 17, 2012
1,154
2,898
Connecticut, USA
It does not matter what Ireland wants. Of course Ireland does not want to collect this money, because that was the whole point of the scheme in the first place. This particular scheme is unlawful under EU law, to which Irish law is subjected, and it is the Commission’s purpose to enforce it.

The Commission cannot make the ’taxation argument’, because that is not what this is about. That this is about taxation is only incidental, the crux of the Commission’s decision is that Apple, a private company, received public money from Ireland on an individual basis. The EU has had strict rules for this exact situation since the original European Economic Community Treaty (1958). Member States are generally not allowed to use their public money to favour particular companies, because it violates the ideals of the free market and reduces cross-border and domestic competition. If Ireland does not want money from Apple, then it has to do his through general taxation, not by selectively exempting certain companies.


But Brussels knew about these tax arrangements for years and never complained until the public mood turned. How safe is any business if entirely legal behavior can be subjected to retroactive antitrust enforcement a decade after the fact? Margarithe Vestager, the EU Commissar, is turning the EU into a banana republic.

She is also doing her best to vindicate the British decision to leave the EU. IMHO, this case is a prime example of why so many European economies can’t seem to grow: a deadly combination of high taxes, legal uncertainties and political grandstanding. Britain should capitalize on this mess and pursue the corporate-tax-rate cuts proposed by MP George Osborne, which would turn Britain into a 15% tax mecca immune from Brussels’s antitrust BS. Take that, Margie!
 

JimmyHook

macrumors 6502a
Apr 7, 2015
992
1,894
People attack any company that has profits and calls that evil. People are jealous and look at Apple and they think they are entitled to a piece of their money
 

AxoNeuron

macrumors 65816
Apr 22, 2012
1,251
855
The Left Coast
Dude, if you don't even pay 1% in taxes...you are BEGGING for a smackdown.

Apple, stop trying to play so many @$^#$%& games with taxes and start making good products for once. I don't know, maybe you could catch up to where Samsung was a few years ago and stop selling 16GB phones in the year 2016! It's embarrassing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SBlue1 and twietee

JeffyTheQuik

macrumors 68020
Aug 27, 2014
2,468
2,407
Charleston, SC and Everett, WA
Crazy thought...

How about the country that Apple is headquartered lower its corporate tax, rendering this money parking discussion moot?

Oh yeah, the "we deserve others' gains" class would rather have 100% of nothing than 10% of something.
 

JimmyHook

macrumors 6502a
Apr 7, 2015
992
1,894
Dude, if you don't even pay 1% in taxes...you are BEGGING for a smackdown.

Apple, stop trying to play so many @$^#$%& games with taxes and start making good products for once. I don't know, maybe you could catch up to where Samsung was a few years ago and stop selling 16GB phones in the year 2016! It's embarrassing.
They are the most profitable company that has ever existed. They pay more in taxes than Samsung. People give more money to Apple for their products, therefore logic dictates people believe Apple products are better
 

opeter

macrumors 68030
Aug 5, 2007
2,708
1,619
Slovenia
Tim is Pinnochio.
Yeah, but you forgot the picture.

hFBx4VT.png
 

AZREOSpecialist

Suspended
Mar 15, 2009
2,354
1,280
How is paying 0.5% tax "right" and "just" when prevailing tax rates are over 12% in Ireland?

I don't think the EU has jurisdiction to demand Apple pay anything, since that was an agreement made with Ireland. The EU needs to recover that money from Ireland, since they are the ones who made the agreement. In this respect, Apple is the innocent party.

However, I believe Mr. Cook needs to stop spouting this nonsense that Apple is some kind of egalitarian, do-good company when clearly it is doing the most it can to pay the lowest possible tax rate. That does not help support the communities that Apple serves. I create jobs, too, but I don't get to have a special tax rate because of that. Apple shouldn't, either.
 

997440

Cancelled
Oct 11, 2015
938
664
I guess the people are just shocked about the 0.005 % tax. This is not fair. No matter what phone I bought or how much I like my MacBook. This is just not fair.

Or would you applaud child labour if it would decrease Apples work cost footprint?

From The Guardian
....Richard Murphy, a tax campaigner and a professor in international political economy at City University in London, said: “This is a great day for the sovereignty of the EU’s nations when it comes to tax. They will now be able to choose their own tax policies knowing another state should not be consciously undermining them when doing so. The Irish state has for too long been committed to tax abuse, unfair competition and secrecy, all of which are designed to undermine fair competition and increase inequality.”

Prof Louise Gracia of Warwick University business school said: “This ruling is a serious attempt at curtailing the power large multinationals have in avoiding their tax liabilities, and sends a warning to countries that facilitate hard-edged corporate tax minimisation strategies.”

She added: “It also shines a spotlight on the paltry levels of corporate tax that large multinationals are actually paying. Even if we accept the job and wealth creation arguments put forward by multinationals as mitigation against tax liability, this has to be within reason.”

Toby Quantrill, Christian Aid’s principal adviser on economic justice, said: “The staggering amount of money at stake here suggests that millions of citizens are paying a painfully high price for multinationals’ cosy tax deals with certain governments.

“This is not a one-off situation – it is part of a damaging race to the bottom in which governments are competing on who can offer multinationals the lowest tax bill. It’s time to get multinationals’ tax affairs out in the open, so we can all see how much they are actually contributing to the rest of society.”.....
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/30/apple-pay-back-taxes-eu-ruling-ireland-state-aid

It matters not that Apple creates wealth and jobs, directly and indirectly. It matters not that Apple generates more collected taxes as a byproduct. It matters not that Apple benefits little, in the form of roads and the like, as compared to what they pay in taxes. All that matters for many is -- "Even though I contribute a miniscule amount (or nothing at all) as compared to how I benefit from others' contributions, it's not fair that anyone has more property/money than me. Successful people/organizations are greedy and selfish. They want to keep what they've earned. I am not greedy and selfish for wanting to take what I haven't earned."
 
  • Like
Reactions: icehockey77

bitslap47

macrumors 6502a
Jul 9, 2007
634
353
My opinion is simply that 'everyone' should be trying to make the world a better place, in anyway they can. If we don't do that, there is very little point in us existing at all.

So is your opinion that Apple has not made the world a better place, and we would be better off had Apple gone bankrupt and shut down it's operations?
 

mdriftmeyer

macrumors 68040
Feb 2, 2004
3,856
2,060
Pacific Northwest
You are still not getting it. The EU commission isn't fining anyone, especially not Ireland. And not Apple. They are saying that Ireland has charged Apple not enough tax, therefore Ireland should please send Apple a bill for 13 billion, and Apple should please pay that money to Ireland.

Get it? Ireland is not supposed to pay a fine, they are supposed to be given 13 billion.



But the EU doesn't want any money. The EU wants Apple to pay money to Ireland, and Ireland doesn't want it.

Ireland fears losing the lucrative upcoming Apple contracts would be worth in excess of this repatriation. That's the reason they don't want `it.'
 

bitslap47

macrumors 6502a
Jul 9, 2007
634
353
Ireland fears losing the lucrative upcoming Apple contracts would be worth in excess of this repatriation. That's the reason they don't want `it.'

No. They have clearly stated Apple has paid what is owed. Nothing else was mentioned as the reason, just paid in full.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MyopicPaideia
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.