I've been faithfully using Mac for years now and I have a friend who's interested in exploring the possibility of converting from a PC to a mac. I'm trying to compile some pretty good arguments why Mac/Leopard is a better route to go than PC/Vista. Currently he's an average, everyday user who doesn't do any fancy editing, but considering it. Since Vista seems to have reduced its crash problems its predecessor had, can some experienced Mac users give me some ammo to rescue him from the dark side of the force? Thanks a bunch.
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Why Mac/Leopard over PC/Vista?
- Thread starter Cavemate K
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Based on my use of an Win XP desktop and a PowerBook, and a friends new Vista desktop (failed to persuade him to go down the Mac route) would say:
- Macs just work. Have had no trouble with iMovie, iDVD and plugging in camcorder to produce movies. Failed to get it to work on the PC despite software patches and upgrades
- Mac OS X is aesthetically clean and consistent. Win XP looks like a hotchpotch of different versions of Windows put together. Whilst Vista is more consistent it still doesn't look 'clean'
- Security. Though Mac OS X security should not be taken for granted protection software does not appear to cause the system to slow down significantly or require downloads each time you start the machine up. The same cannot be said of Norton or AVG on XP/Vista.
- Stability. If an app crashes in OS X the os and other apps just keep going on. If an app crashes in XP (can't comment on Vista on this point) then the whole system comes crashing down.
- Ease of use. Whilst Windows XP and Vista have some really nice features that we have yet to see in OS X (file preview for one though looks as though that might be coming in Leopard) both Windows OSs feel harder to use by comparison. This applies more to Vista where it seems that MS have taken 1 or 2 click XP processes and made them in to 2, 3 or 4 click Vista processes. Based on use of Office 2007 am dreading the arrival of Mac Office 2008 but that is another story.
- Simplicity. The multiplicity of Vista versions either forces you to buy the most expensive version to ensure you have covered all bases or you end up buying a version which does not have all the features you need. There is only one OS X which does it all.
- Multitasking. Have been exceedingly impressed at how I can watch a DVD whilst running Word 2004 on an iBook G3 600 with little or no interruption to the video from the DVD. This same combination of apps (DVD playing and Word 2000) on a 2GHz AMD desktop with over three time the RAM has never worked - producing continuous audio but skipped video.
These are the arguments I used to convince myself to replace my XP desktop with a Mac desktop in the near future. Hope this helps.
- Macs just work. Have had no trouble with iMovie, iDVD and plugging in camcorder to produce movies. Failed to get it to work on the PC despite software patches and upgrades
- Mac OS X is aesthetically clean and consistent. Win XP looks like a hotchpotch of different versions of Windows put together. Whilst Vista is more consistent it still doesn't look 'clean'
- Security. Though Mac OS X security should not be taken for granted protection software does not appear to cause the system to slow down significantly or require downloads each time you start the machine up. The same cannot be said of Norton or AVG on XP/Vista.
- Stability. If an app crashes in OS X the os and other apps just keep going on. If an app crashes in XP (can't comment on Vista on this point) then the whole system comes crashing down.
- Ease of use. Whilst Windows XP and Vista have some really nice features that we have yet to see in OS X (file preview for one though looks as though that might be coming in Leopard) both Windows OSs feel harder to use by comparison. This applies more to Vista where it seems that MS have taken 1 or 2 click XP processes and made them in to 2, 3 or 4 click Vista processes. Based on use of Office 2007 am dreading the arrival of Mac Office 2008 but that is another story.
- Simplicity. The multiplicity of Vista versions either forces you to buy the most expensive version to ensure you have covered all bases or you end up buying a version which does not have all the features you need. There is only one OS X which does it all.
- Multitasking. Have been exceedingly impressed at how I can watch a DVD whilst running Word 2004 on an iBook G3 600 with little or no interruption to the video from the DVD. This same combination of apps (DVD playing and Word 2000) on a 2GHz AMD desktop with over three time the RAM has never worked - producing continuous audio but skipped video.
These are the arguments I used to convince myself to replace my XP desktop with a Mac desktop in the near future. Hope this helps.
If he is using Vista I can provide some points:
System Requirements: Compared to Mac OS X, the Vista requirements are heavy.
Vista: 20 GB hard drive
Mac OS X: 3.0 GB hard drive
Vista: 512 MB:
Mac OS X: 128 MB RAM
User Access Control (UAC): Having a multiple windows pop up to perform administrative task in Vista is not fun. (Plus it doesn't add security because it doesn't ask for the password)
Mac OS X has only one window pops up that ask for the password.
System Requirements: Compared to Mac OS X, the Vista requirements are heavy.
Vista: 20 GB hard drive
Mac OS X: 3.0 GB hard drive
Vista: 512 MB:
Mac OS X: 128 MB RAM
User Access Control (UAC): Having a multiple windows pop up to perform administrative task in Vista is not fun. (Plus it doesn't add security because it doesn't ask for the password)
Mac OS X has only one window pops up that ask for the password.
Leopard has this popup window when you run an application for the first time, I really don't appreciate that at all. I really hope to god they remove they before release.
As a recent convert from Win (3.1,95,98,XP) to Mac [MacPro] here is what I see to be the major pros and cons between XP/Vista and OSX
XP/Vista : PROS : can't think of any
CONS : its a Micro$oft product
Apple OSX : PROS : its a solid reliable proven OS
: its NOT a Micro$oft product
CONS : can't think of any
Is the Apple hardware more expensive? yes
Is the Apple hardware a higher quality design and construction? yes
Does Apple OS suffer from having to have dozens of finicky drivers to operate? NO
Does this post sound like I finally became fed up with the BS of working with Microsoft? Yes
XP/Vista : PROS : can't think of any
CONS : its a Micro$oft product
Apple OSX : PROS : its a solid reliable proven OS
: its NOT a Micro$oft product
CONS : can't think of any
Is the Apple hardware more expensive? yes
Is the Apple hardware a higher quality design and construction? yes
Does Apple OS suffer from having to have dozens of finicky drivers to operate? NO
Does this post sound like I finally became fed up with the BS of working with Microsoft? Yes
Fixed.™ Seriously, try to create a new folder in your Program Files folder, or things along those lines. Get ready to click through 5 UAC dialogues. Privileges are so messy in Vista, it's very hard to get a lot of things done if you're anything more than a basic user.
That's been there since at least Tiger. It's to help prevent malware from running... there was an exploit where a program could hide itself as something like a JPEG. It's kind of annoying when you're first setting up your Mac, but I so very rarely see it, it doesn't bother me.
Neither has been my experience.
AVG doesn't cause any of the 5 XP machines I've put it on to become slow or unstable at startup, and apps crashing in XP have never brought explorer.exe with them on any computer I've used or administrated.
But again YMMV.
OP: FWIW don't compare Vista to anything because Vista is a pile of garbage. Come on...everyone knows that all Windows releases are in full beta until the first service packs are rolled out.
XP is the best Windows version to use now and for the foreseeable future. And in addition I've had little to no problems on any Windows box running Win2k or XP since clean installing 2k/XP on all of them.
I've been thinking abotu this question a lot recently, and I think perhaps you are looking at the discussion with your friend the wrong way.
He's a PC user. Good for him. I'd mention that you are a Mac user, but he already knows that. In this case, he is exploring the possiblity of switching. Don't force arguments down his throat. Create and account for him on your machine (non-admin, of course), and let him play. If he has questions, he'll ask; if not, he won't. He may switch, he may not. It really isn't anybody's place to attack MS or another users choice to use it or to justify our own decisions. Be there, be helpful. If you really want him to join you in using a Mac, just share with him some of your experiences and ask him to think over his decision before he commits to his purchase whatever he wants to purchase.
He's a PC user. Good for him. I'd mention that you are a Mac user, but he already knows that. In this case, he is exploring the possiblity of switching. Don't force arguments down his throat. Create and account for him on your machine (non-admin, of course), and let him play. If he has questions, he'll ask; if not, he won't. He may switch, he may not. It really isn't anybody's place to attack MS or another users choice to use it or to justify our own decisions. Be there, be helpful. If you really want him to join you in using a Mac, just share with him some of your experiences and ask him to think over his decision before he commits to his purchase whatever he wants to purchase.
Apple's website is still very convincing:
http://www.apple.com/getamac/
http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/ (quicktime movies Leopard)
http://www.apple.com/getamac/
http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/ (quicktime movies Leopard)
Understood. OTOH being able to describe the benefits of OSX over Vista can be a valuable tool that as a consumer he can use to make his choice.
But the real requirement for OS X is 512MB to 1GB, whereas Vista is 1GB to 2GB. And on HD use Vista generally uses less than 20GB, whereas OS X generally uses a lot more than 3GB, hell they include over 1GB of HP printer drivers by default.
As does Tiger, its a good feature IMO.
64-bit just means more memory and things can count higher, it won't provide many benefits to most users.
16 to 32 bit is like comparing a 1 room apartment to a 4 bedroom house, whereas 32 to 64bit is like comparing a 4 bedroom house to a mansion in the country. When you move to the 4 bedroom house you have a lot more room to move around and its a big improvement over the apartment, whereas the mansion (over the 4 bedroom house) doesn't make living in it much easier, but its nice to have the extra space.
Thanks everyone for your replies. If money and space weren't issues what advantages would you give OSX over Vista?
I think for him one of the biggest selling points would be reliability. Mac historically was had the lead here, but I understand that Vista is quite a bit more stable. Ah well, food for thought.
I think for him one of the biggest selling points would be reliability. Mac historically was had the lead here, but I understand that Vista is quite a bit more stable. Ah well, food for thought.
I run tiger and I have never once seen that happen. It wasn't until I put Leopard on an external drive that I have seen it pop up.
Agreed. My concerns weren't intended take a run at you, but some of the most absolutists that I've seen around here. Just remember, though, that he's putting together the computer he wants - he should get to choose when to use the tool, not you.
"Your friend wants to question the superiority of Vista. Cancel or Allow?"
I have a Windows zealot of a friend who actually outright refuses to allow me to install Vista on my MacBook in BootCamp. Says Vista is their biggest blunder since Me and is sticking with XP... Just like everyone else I know.
A close friend the other day was talking about it. She was talking about how she will want to do something, Vista will yell at her saying "Are you sure???" And she says "Yes, and don't ask me again." Then two weeks later it asks again. She's getting frustrated. I told her "I don't miss Windows one bit." She said "I'd love to get a MacBook but they're so expensive." She asked how much mine was and I told her the lowest was $1099. She said "Oh.. that's how much I paid for my Dell." She said she can't get it now because she still has to pay off the Dell. She said "I'm afraid I won't know how to use it." I asked what does she do? She said she'd use it "for writing and playing my music." I said "Well there you go. Mac's are the best at that stuff. I'll TEACH you if I have to."
I'm going to show her my MacBook one day. Even if I have to help her sell her Dell to get her one of her own, I will convert her.
I have a Windows zealot of a friend who actually outright refuses to allow me to install Vista on my MacBook in BootCamp. Says Vista is their biggest blunder since Me and is sticking with XP... Just like everyone else I know.
A close friend the other day was talking about it. She was talking about how she will want to do something, Vista will yell at her saying "Are you sure???" And she says "Yes, and don't ask me again." Then two weeks later it asks again. She's getting frustrated. I told her "I don't miss Windows one bit." She said "I'd love to get a MacBook but they're so expensive." She asked how much mine was and I told her the lowest was $1099. She said "Oh.. that's how much I paid for my Dell." She said she can't get it now because she still has to pay off the Dell. She said "I'm afraid I won't know how to use it." I asked what does she do? She said she'd use it "for writing and playing my music." I said "Well there you go. Mac's are the best at that stuff. I'll TEACH you if I have to."
I'm going to show her my MacBook one day. Even if I have to help her sell her Dell to get her one of her own, I will convert her.
When you use VIsta,
yes maybe some of you said that Vista's GUI is nice compared to Tiger's.
But wait, how can you compare an OS that recently come up with 3 years OS,
it just not fair.
When you compare Vista to Tiger, it just simply don't fair because Vista is newer,
but Tiger is better in my opinion.
In Windows, you must deal with d*mn much viruses ,spyware,etc.
yes maybe some of you said that Vista's GUI is nice compared to Tiger's.
But wait, how can you compare an OS that recently come up with 3 years OS,
it just not fair.
When you compare Vista to Tiger, it just simply don't fair because Vista is newer,
but Tiger is better in my opinion.
In Windows, you must deal with d*mn much viruses ,spyware,etc.
For everyday users Vista is XP with a pretty skin and some nice special effects, at first I preferred the look to OS X, but OS X is really easier to use and more intuitive, I'd also be tempted to say (as it's probably true) that the share/freeware for OS X is better than for XP/Vista.
Definitely. As a recent switcher I'm shocked a the quantity and quality of the freeware.
Well it all comes down to how casual of a user he is. If he's only surfing the web - pretty much browser security is all he'll need above the hardware itself. I'm sorry to say Safari and Firefox security is less than ideal compared to IE7. Anyone saying otherwise does not frequent bugtraq or the industry boards enough to say. But outside of the browser....
The things that will matter are: How easy is it to get the computer fixed (liability), How many years will your support last, How much upgrading can the computer handle, How many years are left on the OS life-cycle. This will have a lot to do with his location and whom he buys from.
I preffer any company that offers limitless replacement on all parts for 3+ years with full-paid shipping. Here in Hawaii, local support companies are nil - there were a couple but they must have went out of business.
I will not remark about anything regaurding what Windows was (like XP) or what OSX was (like panther) and I will keep my opinions unbiased
Vista has hefty requirements - but PCs also get better hardware cheap (not many $1000 macs sold with 8800 GTS 640MB video cards out there). But, it many years in the making (not just a bi-yearly update that costs money) and will be valid for many years to come. It sports many real features and industry standards Leopard will not have with regards to how it manages it's resources and protects itself. Improvements to an OS's core effect the whole user experience from network quality to file security and usability.
In my honest opinion, Leopard is just a little more icing and a lot of bug fixes to an existing OS. Few core OS features will be added and will have little effect on their underlying applications. A lot of these features can be emulated with third party software.
As a tiger user I would sway anyone I could from using Leopard to anything else so that we could keep the market share low. Internet marketers would not take notice and my system will remain as safe as it has for so long.
To sway them to using Mac I would give them a dollar-for-dollar offer that is better than a PC with a satisfaction guarantee. Don't say one OS is better than another - be considerate of the person's needs and how they will be met when you aren't around. Just don't make up stuff like half of the responses in this thread. We don't need another fanboi scaring the sane people away.
The things that will matter are: How easy is it to get the computer fixed (liability), How many years will your support last, How much upgrading can the computer handle, How many years are left on the OS life-cycle. This will have a lot to do with his location and whom he buys from.
I preffer any company that offers limitless replacement on all parts for 3+ years with full-paid shipping. Here in Hawaii, local support companies are nil - there were a couple but they must have went out of business.
I will not remark about anything regaurding what Windows was (like XP) or what OSX was (like panther) and I will keep my opinions unbiased
Vista has hefty requirements - but PCs also get better hardware cheap (not many $1000 macs sold with 8800 GTS 640MB video cards out there). But, it many years in the making (not just a bi-yearly update that costs money) and will be valid for many years to come. It sports many real features and industry standards Leopard will not have with regards to how it manages it's resources and protects itself. Improvements to an OS's core effect the whole user experience from network quality to file security and usability.
In my honest opinion, Leopard is just a little more icing and a lot of bug fixes to an existing OS. Few core OS features will be added and will have little effect on their underlying applications. A lot of these features can be emulated with third party software.
As a tiger user I would sway anyone I could from using Leopard to anything else so that we could keep the market share low. Internet marketers would not take notice and my system will remain as safe as it has for so long.
To sway them to using Mac I would give them a dollar-for-dollar offer that is better than a PC with a satisfaction guarantee. Don't say one OS is better than another - be considerate of the person's needs and how they will be met when you aren't around. Just don't make up stuff like half of the responses in this thread. We don't need another fanboi scaring the sane people away.
Vista may look nice, but like others have said, it's just some fancy themes on top of that same old unstable, insecure NT kernel. Plus, Vista feels like it's still in beta stage. There are many aspects of it that feel incomplete and buggy. Vista also thinks it's protecting people from their own stupidity. It sometimes blocks actions such as modifying and deleting files in the system32 and program files folder. IE7 is more bloated and annoying than ever. It asks you permission for every download, ActiveX control, script, plugin, and it does stupid stuff like alert you when a pop-up has been blocked. Windows Aero is a RAM hog and drastically slows down system performance. The Windows Sidebar is also a RAM hog and is just a copy of Dashboard, except it's a pathetic copy. Some features are missing or hidden, such as stuff in Windows Explorer and IE7. Speech recognition just flat out sucks. The new taskbar and window decorations waste pixels and add no new functionality. The new Windows Photo Gallery has trouble opening some images and the slideshow feature is bland with no transitions. Windows Movie Maker is buggy and crashes every other second. Plus, the price of Vista is absurd. There are 4 versions. Home Basic gives you just about nothing. Home Premium gives you Aero, but no advanced features. Business is basically Home Premuim without Media Center. Ultimate is also just like Home Premium except you get some great new features like...well...Texas Hold'em Poker. And, the funny part is, Ultimate is $60 more than Premium. Why would you want to pay $60 for a game of Texas Hold'em Poker? Vista is a rip-off. Microsoft just wants money. They could care less about making people happy. Bill Gates is a thief. Steve Ballmer is a monkey.
That's my rant.
That's my rant.
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I recently switched and I now hate myself for not switching sooner!!! Who the hell would use a PC if they didn't need to?
I've had plenty of times where my entire Mac stopped responding, or refused to shut down, etc just due to simple things like my router losing it's internet connection.
10.4.10 seems much better at not doing this than earlier versions of Tiger, though.
10.4.10 seems much better at not doing this than earlier versions of Tiger, though.
I've had plenty of times where my entire Mac stopped responding, or refused to shut down, etc just due to simple things like my router losing it's internet connection.
10.4.10 seems much better at not doing this than earlier versions of Tiger, though.
mac osx is not an all-powerful machine though
, but when my mac crash one time, my xp machine crash 10 times =>no jokes 
OP: FWIW don't compare Vista to anything because Vista is a pile of garbage. Come on...everyone knows that all Windows releases are in full beta until the first service packs are rolled out.
yes... Personally, compared to all other windows OS (3.1,95,98,ME,2000,xp) XP SP2 is by far the best.... they finally got the balls to shut off the system totally (logging off, shutting down)by just hitting the power button, what a great concept!! And finally, no damn active desktop to display desktop pics you really want.
that being said, I have used all the windows OSs up to XPSP2 and even apple's OS X 10.3.9 is head over heals better. The ease of use is extraordinary. I went from an apple IIGS to an iBook G4 and had almost no issues with figuring out the OS. I bought a book with it, and hardly used the book, maybe 2 times. It automatically sets up your ethernet, wireless with no drivers, no bridges, no nonsense, it just works from the start! Within a week I was proficient in most of my everyday computing. If all else there are people on macrumors that will answer any question he has about anything.