No GPU upgrades coming for nMP, proof is in the firmware

Why kill the messenger who paints a clear, true picture?

edanuff said:

I'm still unclear on the logic as well. Not that I think Apple will introduce a GPU upgrade option (although it's not completely out of the question), but if they did, then sure, they'd just have a firmware update. Now, if the point was that Apple will never issue a new firmware option for the nMP because they lost the source code or something, then I'd buy that argument, since they still haven't updated the nMP firmware to show bootscreens for 4K SST displays

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We top of the line Mac purchasers, along with third party component suppliers, are what has made Apple computers relevant for more extended periods of time. When Apple diminishes or takes away our ability to do that, then Apple's products become disposables.

I’ve seen nothing in any of MVC’s posts anywhere were he’s stated that Apple could not release GPU or any other component upgrades for any of its computers, including especially the "new" MacPro6,1. I still own working Power PC/Power Macintosh 8100/80s, 8500/120s, 7500/100s, 9600/200s, Power Mac G4s, Power Mac G5s, 2007 MacPros, and a 2009 MacPro, all of which I’ve upgraded to be significantly more powerful than when Apple released them, but always with the assistance of third party vendors and component suppliers.*/ That has been the history of my long journey through Mac world. Apple has never had any reliable history of supplying Mac users with upgrade options, other than at the time of, or shortly after, initial release of the Apple computer. Moreover, as to the ultimate source of Apples past graphic card upgrades (few that they have been), they have been easy, user upgradeable releases of graphic cards in the same form factory as that of the general computing industry. I’ve seen nothing in Apple’s history that would provide anyone with credible support to believe that Apple will ever release GPU upgrades for the MacPro6,1. But I have seen Apple's history and that speaks volumes. Could Apple do so? Most assuredly the answer is, and as it has always been, “Yes,” even as to the MacPro 2013’s predecessors. But the more important question is: Will (or is it likely that) Apple will do so? History matters. If you own a MacPro 2013 or are intending to purchase one, I believe that is what MVP has been and still is now saying to you, but now with more compelling support, is that what you see is basically all that you’ll get from that Apple product. If you're happy with that and will continue continue to be happy with that, then so be it. However, if you want more than what you see, then that’s, as it has historically been, left up to your own ingenuity {this is supported by the overwhelming majority of topics covered in vast majority of threads in this forum} or you have to buy the then current one, if any. So when you buy top of the line Mac, you either live or die with it based on your continued contentment, ability to buy the next great new thing if any or your ability to do your own upgrades using third party components. The same applies to the middle and bottom of the Apple line. It’s just that if or when contentment ends and the upgrade components are not like what you can order from Newegg, Amazon, Ebay, etc., then you’re SOL, unless you pony up the doe to pay the piper for another full ride. Recent history has made Apple acutely aware that significantly large numbers of technology consumers are content to pay for another full ride. Thus, selling disposability isn't such a bad attribute if a company would dare to surprise the foretellers of it's imminent demise and best Exxon Mobil.

As a long-term and long-time Apple shareholder, I like where Apple is headed in terms of selling disposable, non-user upgradeable, everything. However, as a power user, lets just say I'm fully content to still own as my most powerful Apple computer my 2009 MacPro that I've been modifying and upgrading since 2009. Apple's Westmere and Nehalem computers are some of the highest quality computers ever made. In fact, I'm in the process of upgrading them right now using upgrade components I ordered from Newegg, Amazon, Ebay, and elsewhere. Not everyone's needs or desires are the same as mine, luckily for me. In fact, the more others have fallen head-over-heels in love with the 2013 MacPro, the better for me. My hope is that they please passionately convert non-MacPro 2013 owners to board the new MacPro ship.

Those who would kill the messenger who paints a clear, true picture, make me hear," ka-ching! ka-ching! ka-ching!" If I were were MVP, I'd take continued questioning of my motives as music to my ears and as a timer to buy more Apple stock.


*/ I also own a flower power and orange iMacs and a Lisa, but the Lisa has called it quits.

flowrider said:

That really not the point!

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No it was not. The rest of the post was.

When did Apple Stores sell such parts as airport cards or GPUs (except, maybe, for the HD5770)?

Just a couple of weeks ago I responded to someone that it might be possible to upgrade boards in an unofficial manner using nMP2 boards some day, but given this new information I have to eat crow and take that back.

Here's a important historical point to consider--one that is nearly a direct comparison to the topic of this thread.

When the Apple 5770 and 5870 retail kits came out, Apple's official compatibility list showed that the 2009 MP was compatible with the 5870, but not the 5770. A lot of people thought this was bizarre, or that it was simply incorrect.

But then we found that many of those who installed Apple 5770s into their 2009 had runaway fan issues--investigation in this forum pointed toward a bug in the SMC firmware. All Apple had to do was provide an update to the 2009 SMC firmware to make it compatible with the 5770, but they couldn't be bothered to support the 2009 MP, even though it was a model that was only a one year old. Apple chose to simply drop the 2009 from the compatibility list rather than to provide a firmware update to support it.

In other words, in the past Apple chose not to do what is literally the exact same thing that they must do in order to support nMP2 GPUs on nMP1.

dmylrea said:

why can't Apple just supply a firmware/GPU ROM update for new video cards like they did originally? Your response to him really did not clearly explain why that is impossible.

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Having the GPU ROM in the main chip is further proof of Apple's disinterest in easy updates. I don't think anyone said it was proof that it's literally impossible to flash a ROM--that's a completely different point.

Mattstrete said:

@MacVidCards

You have had an anti-nMP agenda since it was released. I put it to you that this is because you run a business selling video cards to be installed in the "classic" mac pro.

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This entire subforum does. They are afraid of change (and going out of business).

poematik13 said:

This entire subforum does. They are afraid of change (and going out of business).

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Keep Calm and Buy an Apple Watch! ;-)

poematik13 said:

This entire subforum does. They are afraid of change (and going out of business).

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The point of the thread is that there will not be internal GPU upgrades for the nMP.

Perhaps you could add to the debate by make some reasoning counterpoints about how there will definitely be internal GPU upgrades for the nMP.

Or perhaps you can't, since you instead chose to insult the entire subforum.

poematik13 said:

This entire subforum does. They are afraid of change (and going out of business).

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Not really.

My work has double with the introduction of GPU rendering, There was a time i had to not take work cause my MP would be rendering for 2-4 days.

Now in my MP i can render the same file in 4 hours.... AND still be working on another project with my MP... All because i can install nVidia gpu's...
If the nMP had that option id be there already instead i just invested in a new Quadro K4200 from MVC, His clients are not muso's there Video & 3D and CAD people who need and want better GPU's. So you see the Music guys don't care and have hardly any tech knowledge to understand why the nMP isn't our favourite.. and thats the split you see in these arguments over Pro nMP and Against nMP. its more or less Music vs Video.....

heh im a music guy and i *hate* the nMP. but that's because i have a whole slew of expansion cards that wont work in TB expansion chassis. not to mention paying $500 to continue to use something that works perfectly fine right now as-is.




there's really not much difference between a finely upgraded cMP and the nMP. RAM speed is about the only hard difference I can think of that can't be overcome with thoughtful upgrade choices.

what's really fun is playing with a hackintosh and showing people 10 year old PCI cards that still work perfectly fine in Yosemite. "but... but... but..." as you can see the inner frustration building from remembering how they had to fork out $$$$ to replace everything that (surprise) still works just fine in the current OS!


MVC i thank you for the work you do and tip my hat to the patience you have with people that just cannot see the points you try to make. its not rocket science. Apple is in the business of making as much money as possible. its not in their interest to fix obscure bugs, because that keeps them from selling more new machines. you guys that cant wrap your head around this and think Apple couldnt possibly leave you out in the cold, well, simply put, you probably havent been using a mac long enough to get burned. never if, always when with them. those of us who have been around the block more than once know how this song goes, and know it well.

nigelbb said:

What evidence do you have that Apple can't or won't do exactly that?

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I expect the current trends at Apple should be evidence enough... Even when they released upgraded graphics cards for real Mac Pros, they pretended they wouldn't work in older models (which, of course, they did), the same way the pretend that ML won't work on many models on which it functions perfectly well, and how they pretend Yosemite won't run on other models, and, and, and...

I'm willing to be a fan of Apple, but I'll never be a fanboy. The current direction at Apple is very clearly to build devices that are both expensive AND disposable. I find it not even slightly surprising that Apple might purposefully build-in a "obsolete" switch by locking out upgrades on what should have been designed from the ground-up as an upgradable system. Nothing about the MacProMini says "pro" to me, except the price. It's sad.

Thank goodness my primary system is a lovely MacPro 1,1. Still works perfectly today running Yosemite and is still plenty fast. I'll probably even do the 8-core upgrade eventually, or just build a Hackintosh.

This entire subforum does. They are afraid of change (and going out of business).

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We're not afraid of change. We're simply upset with being kicked the curb. Prior to the iPhone, desktop Mac sales boomed, and you can thank creative pros for that - particularly those who embraced classic Final Cut Pro (like I did since version ONE).

Back when I bought my Mac Pro (a 2008 model that I continue to use today) to replace an aging G5 tower, I was amazed at how much power I got for the money. Comparatively speaking, G5s were far more expensive and they became total turds later on with HD video work. The base 8-core 2008 MP was one of the best workstation deals around, regardless of platform. And it's still a relatively fast machine to this day. It has paid for itself many times over, so if it dies tomorrow, at least I can say I got my money's worth. But knowing that this workstation is now 7 years old, I have two paths to take when an upgrade is required: A) Buy a disposable black tube that's fast for now; or B) Pick up a used 4,1 or 5,1 and upgrade it the best I can. A third option would be the Hackintosh route, but based on the experiences several of my friends have had building these beasts, I'm not entirely sure I'd even want to dive into a world of drivers that mysteriously break whenever Apple updates OS X.

Back in 2007, the groundwork was already laid for the road ahead when Apple changed their name from Apple Computer to Apple Inc. It was at that time they began this transition to a company that sells disposable lifestyle products instead of serious computers. A lot of people blame Tim Cook now, but if you really think about it, Steve started it. And Jony Ive got to make some really pretty things...

I agree with MVC on one thing he mentioned earlier in this thread: the Chevy analogy. They make a lot of boring cars, but then they have the Corvette. GM sells far more econoboxes and trucks than anything else, but they still keep a true high-performance driver's car with a big V8 around for the people that want it - and they actually pay attention to it by improving it each generation. Thusly, we creative pros (you know, the guys that kept them afloat before they become a gadget peddler?) asked Apple for a new bone in two areas: a MP with new silicon and a modernized version of FCP. They answered with a disposable workstation and a radically different FCP. Some people liked it, many hated it.

----------

Final thought: I'm fine with the fact that the majority of Apple's computer revenue comes from laptops and iMacs. But it really wouldn't hurt their bottom line if they just threw us workstation users a bone.

No GPU upgrades coming for nMP, proof is in the firmware

I think some here are overestimating the extent to which many users of these machines would wish to upgrade. I can understand that you are frustrated if Apple have not provided the expandability options that you want, but there is another set of customers not like you for whom these machines would be entirely satisfactory.

The truth of it is that most business users are not messing around fiddling with this or that component and flashing ROMs etc. That is more of a hobbyist mentality.

kwikdeth said:

there's really not much difference between a finely upgraded cMP and the nMP.

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Yes, indeed.

kwikdeth said:

RAM speed is about the only hard difference I can think of that can't be overcome with thoughtful upgrade choices.

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Even the RAM speed is negligible. The difference between DDR3 2133 MHz and DDR3-1333 MHz is less than 2%, and there is 4.5% difference from DDR3 2133 MHz to DDR3-1066 MHz.

I quote: http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/314892-30-cl11-what-difference

http://www.computerbase.de/2012-05/test-welchen-ram-fuer-intel-ivy-bridge/3/

Another problem is that for the prosumer the iMac is £1000 cheaper and in many areas outright beats the Mac pro, ok yes the iMac will throttle quicker and for video the Pro is a better choice but the iMac is a screamer and you get that gorgeous display that apple charges £800 separately.

Inherent problems with the iMac and always was, minimal upgrade path. But Apple will sell iMacs to Pros 10-1 probably. The pro is so expensive and minimal performance gains and lack of screen, its not a particularly good proposition and apple have marketed it in such a way that people won't buy it. a £500-700 reduction would be a much better proposition and then you might not worry so much about it not being as upgradable.

Im a graphic designer and photographer, I have a 27" iMac at work and a 2008 Mac Pro at home. Both have merits, the iMac is faster and easy to use but the HDD is a pain to replace and is the bottleneck I would like an SSD, also the graphics card is showing its age. Graphics are so important people really underestimate them especially with the GPU acceleration.

The mac pro is perfect for my use but its just old, I am hampered by only 2 PCIX2 lanes, one taken up by my graphics and the second for my PCIXSSD, SATA2 and the single core processor scores. I would like a USB3 card but I have nowhere to put one.

I bought the 2008 2.8 mac pro because I got it for a steal £1500, its fast and it has the storage capability I like. I can just swap out a drive and replace it when ever I like. The iMac can't and I have externals all over the place.

For my line of work single 64 bit power is most important, lightroom, In, Il etc PS works multicore but I'm using it less and less these days. These programmes aren't multicore compatible so although my mac pro is still a good system with multicore, it really struggles with single now. Lightroom CC has now implemented GPU acceleration which has made a huge difference for me, I have an old evga 285 but it has made a difference. It benches 1660 single 64 so its not fast by todays standards.

I have an 11' MBa i7 1.7 and it benches nearly double that of my mac pro at 3142. It runs much better although it doesn't have the graphics power when attached up to a large monitor.

I have got to the point where spending money on the pro doesn't make sense, ram is expensive, spending £500 on a GT 980 is more than the machines worth and whether it will be overkill with it being PCI3 and me only having PCI2. Although this may help nothing can change the single core.

I also think that spending £1500-2000 on 3-5 year old cMP seems stupid too because the value for money proposition of a 5 year system isn't great. They aren't stupid fast single core after upgrades an X5690 will only bench at 3500 which is 1000 less than the new iMac and that is 6 months old now.

Then the 6,1 I am quite attracted to it. But again the worry about graphics they are old cards already and whether they are going to be good for the next 5 years. But again they aren't a good value proposition atm. I will wait for the 7,1 but spending £4k on a system that is not upgradable and then spending all the money on converting my current internal storage to thunderbolt enclosures probably add another £1000 just crazy. I think I will have spent £3000 max over 6 years only my mac pro including its original price tag.

Hakintoshes are looking more and more a better proposition, £1200 and you could have something that runs rings around everything apple currently offers which p*$$es me off.

poematik13 said:

This entire subforum does. They are afraid of change (and going out of business).

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Most people don't fear change in general. What they oppose is ill-considered change, where the cons outweigh the pros.

What we're seeing here is the limitations of Apple's "one size fits all" approach, where what works well in the consumer market (sealed boxes with no user-serviceable parts inside) is being foisted on expert users for whom it really isn't appropriate.

If you don't want to be in the workstation business, that's fine. But please don't pretend to be in it when you're really not - that just harms your reputation.

I love Apple products and I love the look of the nMP, but even I can't convince myself it's worth buying. I guess I'll keep my 2009 Mac Pro going for another few years, but I probably won't buy another Mac unless Apple change direction on this. That makes me sad.

tomscott1988 said:

Well this is where we are…

I have a 2008 Mac Pro and looking to upgrade. The nMP is well overpriced now its 18 months old and is about as useful in terms of upgradability as an iMac so a machine that could last 5-6 years is now on a 2-3 year cycle and spending £4000 on a machine when I got my 2008 Mac pro in 2009 when the Nehalem came out for £1500 the new ones don't seem good value. In fact the new machines are only just pushing twice the speed in 7 years.

Ive also looked at buying a 5,1 and upgrading to a 8 core or a the 12 core X chips but spending £2000-2500 on a pre owned 3 year old machine seems stupid too.

There isn't a good path for us cMP users and its had me looking elsewhere but I just hate windows machines and even then the workstations from HP and Dell seem pretty stale too…

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I am in a similar position, looking to upgrade to a new mac, but I don't see an option out there that will have the legs that the machine I bought in 2008 has. The iMac is a non-starter, because that has obsolete baked into it.

So, I find myself looking through Dells, HPs, Alienware, falcon northwest, main gear, etc and all their wares and i just can't pull the trigger on a windows machine.

It's all a bit reminiscent of the complete ATI Radeon X1900 XT BIOS embedded in the first-generation Mac Pro firmware. Apple apparently never intended for a different card to be available.

I can understand wanting something different, but clearly Apple is selling more and more Macs over time. The future does seem likely almost exactly as you see it, with highly designed non-user serviceable Macs, because it's what's selling as customers buy more and more Macs in a declining-to-flat PC market.

Infrared said:

I think some here are overestimating the extent to which many users of these machines would wish to upgrade. I can understand that you are frustrated if Apple have not provided the expandability options that you want, but there is another set of customers not like you for whom these machines would be entirely satisfactory.

The truth of it is that most business users are not messing around fiddling with this or that component and flashing ROMs etc. That is more of a hobbyist mentality.

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The expandability is the reason we got a 5,1 last year at work. We looked at to pros and cons of both this machine and the nMP and we got the old one. I would say that if we were leasing these like we do our Dells and HP's it'd be a different story.

Infrared said:

I think some here are overestimating the extent to which many users of these machines would wish to upgrade. I can understand that you are frustrated if Apple have not provided the expandability options that you want, but there is another set of customers not like you for whom these machines would be entirely satisfactory.

The truth of it is that most business users are not messing around fiddling with this or that component and flashing ROMs etc. That is more of a hobbyist mentality.

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Having the option to upgrade your computer does not negatively impact those who will never choose to do it.

H2SO4 said:

Having the option to upgrade your computer does not negatively impact those who will never choose to do it.

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Unless the implementation of upgradeability interferes with the design. Which in case of the nMP it clearly did. And since the design apparently is more important than the functionality, we ended up with this particular design. (see also that new MacBook which has only a single USB-C connector - there too, design overruled practicality)

I'm in the same position as many have posted here. Using a 8core MacPro 3,1. Lots of RAM, SSD etc. Love it. Best machine Apple has ever built. I've been using Macs for more than 20 years. Started with a Performa, then a Quadra 840AV (which cost me an arm and a leg), went through G5s, and many, many powerbooks and MacBook Pros.

I'm very, very saddened about the current trends at Apple which have been listed before in this discussion. Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything about iPhones and iPads, and I don't care about the (stupid) watch. But with a company that has a larger market capitalization than Exxon, it would cost them a negligible amount of cash to maintain a Mac Pro with the expandability we all want - if they had any interest in doing so.

It seems to me it's obvious they are not interested in this anymore. Jony Ive has been put in charge of design and the design is apparently way more important than functionality. There's proof to this everywhere. Just look at the new Helvetica system font in Yosemite which is much more difficult to read than the previous font. There's senior typographers out there who confirm it's the classic industrial designer's mistake.

I don't want to go on ranting about Apple. But the truth is, I'm very frustrated with this company who has provided the best user interface during the last 20 years and often the best hardware, and now it seems to change for the worse (with regards to pros' requirements; and don't even get me started on the topic of Aperture!).

I'll keep using my 3,1 but at some point I will have to look for alternatives. Again, as others have pointed out, hackintosh is painful. I tried it. It turned into a nightmare with each OS update. I can't bring myself to install Windows (yet). I've tried Linux and it's fun (and free and fantastic to run our file server with ZFS) but really nowhere in the same league when it comes to a desktop workstation and pro apps.

No GPU upgrades coming for nMP, proof is in the firmware

The cMP (3.1 in 2008) was my first Apple love, and it will be my last! Hope my current MP 5.1 will last that long! ;-)

Cheers

poematik13 said:

This entire subforum does. They are afraid of change (and going out of business).

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They have every right to fear change, when Apple's form of change is a downgrade to their workflow.

Brazzan said:

(sealed boxes with no user-serviceable parts inside)

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Huh? The CPU, GPU, SSD, and RAM are all removable and able to be changed, sans the GPU to an extent.

poematik13 said:

This entire subforum does. They are afraid of change (and going out of business).

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The writing is on the wall or in this case the store front. Anyone users that are afraid of change may take their cMP to this location. I will drive there as soon as I finish this last post on my beloved 3,1 cMP!