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mkrishnan said:
So it seems from the coverage that the device has no optical drive, and no internal mass storage? Is that correct? And also that it is not itself a DVR? Don't get me wrong -- I'm reserving judgment. I just want to understand at this point. It sounds as if the basic purpose of the device is to draw high quality AV off a computer and onto a home entertainment system, sort of as the Roku SoundBridge did for the iPod's audio, but in a very Apple sort of way? In other words, it follows the computer-centric sort of model where a desktop or notebook Mac on the network is the "server"?

I agree with your interpretation re another mac on the network acting as the server. It appeals to me as very 'mac eloquent' actually - it simply acts to feed your TV output to your mac rather then establishing another storage device in the household - down load to ipod - nice/neat :) Makes sense of the price also.
 
s-video is over 20 years old. This device is geared toward people with HDTVs.
You will need component (crappy hd, and no hdcp protection) minimum or HDMI which is a cable designed to carry audio (if you want) and 1080p signal.

As I mentioned in my previous post I already use my Macbook Pro as a media center, just close the lid, connect the dvi-hdmi cable and set it on top of my cable box... Use FrontRow and I'm all set. It works great on my 60" TV.

I think this really isn't going to be for people without HDTV. There isn't much point. There are only a few High end standard def tvs with component video.

So if your going to keep your old tv set for a movie store, then an older mac is perfect for this. Consider that the maximum resolution of a SDTV is 320x240 on older sets.

Current TV standard - 525 X 700, 30fps, 60 fields/sec, 4:3 (w:h)
VHS quality - 320 X 240, 30fps
Broadcast quality DVD - 720 X 480, 30fps (but doesn't matter if you have an old tv)

kerpow said:
I know I'm going to sound like a complete idiot here...but what does this device do that an S-Video cable can't do?

If I want to watch a few movies that I've created on my Powerbook, I pick up the PB put it next to the TV and use the cables to join them together.

If it is just a case of higher quality and no wires, I'm obviously not the target audience for this product.
 
milo said:
Does the PC have to be next to the xbox, or is there a way to transfer (hopefully stream) video wirelessly? And if you're using a PC for this, does it tie up the PC or can you use it for other things?

Yes, works fine over an 802.11g network, INCLUDING HD MATERIAL STREAMING. And no, it does not noticably tie up the pc, my gf can be watching live tv or streaming a divx from the pc to the 360 and I can be on the pc browsing the web/ etc with no noticable slowdown. Media center for all purposes is XP PRO, so it does everything xp pro does, even when streaming to an extender (360) - note, one pc can feed 5 seperate extenders :D
 
Excited, but dissapointed.

Personally, I think it's incredible... and I also think the price point is fine.

It's a high definition box... how many other high definition boxes out there that cost $299 do HDMI and COMPONENT Video Out? I mean, seriously, I don't care that it doesn't have a hard disk. Quite honestly, I'm glad it doesn't have DVR capabilities either. Almost EVERY television source (from Satellite to Cable to now my current FIOS TV) now includes DVRs, as well as Multimedia DVRs, so that is pretty much covered... adding another DVR in the chain only makes things really REALLY slow, and very unuser friendly (tried hooking up a DVR unit to a Dish Network PVR... OMG what a nightmare)...

So... I'm happy with everything... EXCEPT...

Why not make it have a DVD player as well? I mean, think of the broad appeal this device could INSTANTLY have at, say, a $399 price point...

A DVD Player that can be used as a multi-media hub using your existing Mac or PC with the absolute most killer graphics in the industry?

Heck, they could even save money and use the Mac Mini footprint and case for all I care... it would be sweeeeeet!

:(

But... baby steps.

Baby steps.
 
There's a MUCH more systematic way that Apple could name this product.

"AirPort" is derrived from "Air" (being the medium through which the device works) and "Port" (gateway to aforementioned medium)

So this iTV box:

The medium through which the device works is Television and the device is a gateway to the Television so add "port" to the end. Thus...

I herby propose "TelePort."

hahah.

TelePort.

And you thought "AirPort" was bad.

-Clive
 
MacProGuy said:
Why not make it have a DVD player as well? I mean, think of the broad appeal this device could INSTANTLY have at, say, a $399 price point...

A DVD player would add a barbaric component to this elegant piece of work. If, instead, you were to buy a nice-sized hard drive for that extra $100 and ripped your DVDs to it, you could eliminate the monstrosity all together.

-Clive
 
I don't think anyone seriously knows what's in this box. A HD isn't out of the question, even a 250G one. That's, what, $100 retail right now? I bought one for $130 pre-rebate from Staples a couple of months ago. The difficulty I can see isn't with price, it's with squeezing it into the box.

We also don't know if Apple will line something else up to complement the iTV, such as a dedicated server unit. A home server, that maintains the iTunes library, manages Internet connections, etc, would be a good thing to have, and if it can be controlled from the iTV and any normal computer in the house, then that's a bonus.

I like what I've seen so far. We'll know more early next year. This is the first bit of good news I've seen from Apple in the last year and a half, and I hope it marks the beginning of a reversal.
 
wpwj40e said:
ABout the only real use I saw for thi sdevice was for the stuff Ihave recorded form elgato 500. Sinc eit dumps it into my itunes library - theoretically I should be able to access it. However, 5 gig files streaming are simply not pretty - and I do not want 640 * 480 on my HDTV.

WHile I "get" the direction of this product - I am not sure where its marketing position is at. Most can easily buy an upconverting DVD player for around $50-60 - connect to their TV and buy tons of movies (and own them) at 10-15.

Is there really that much difference between 640 and 720? Seems funny to say one is "not pretty" but those extra 80 lines (and no difference in the other dimension) make it acceptable.

carfac said:
Fort this to even be in the BALLPARK, it needs a Hard Dive. Needs to be Hi Def. That ain't happening at a 299.99 price tag. Still, people love the Tivo interface, so to get them, it's gonna have to offer MORE than Tivo- like an optical drive, a couple tuners. No WAY that is in this box and "not discolsed yet" at 299.

But tivo is also way more expensive, especially when you factor in monthly fees and new prices for upcoming HD versions. Many people don't want tivo because it's too freaking expensive.

dante@sisna.com said:
1) It does stream HD content -- Just because the iTunes content is NOT HD (it is near DVD) does not mean the DEVICE is not capable. In fact it uses the HDMI connector (as well as S and componet video) and the built in wireless AND gigabit ethernet insure the bandwidth is there for future HD content.

Hopefully, it will stream HD. But at this point, that is just speculation, there is NO confirmation that it can stream HD.

legacyb4 said:
So based on what was shown today, the iTV itself is not presenting itself as a recording solution, only playback.

If that is the case, then it still misses the mark because you cannot do the one thing that a PVR can do easily which is to pick up the remote and click record without getting out of your chair (assuming your Mac is in a different room than the TV).

Why not? There's nothing stopping them from controling the computer recording via the iTV remote.

greenstork said:
Have fun sitting down to your computer to record shows. I get the vision, I reallly do, and I wanted Apple to pull it off better than anyone. But having to record HD content from one piece of hardware, convert it on my computer, load it onto iTunes and stream it to another piece of hardware (iTV) isn't exactly user friendly.

Why do you assume that it must be complicated? Elgato can record directly into an iTunes friendly format and put it straight into the iTunes library. And I'd bet Apple and Elgato could even work out a way to start recordings from the computer, and even stream and pause live TV.

myamid said:
It's not certain, but It's a damn good bet that it won't record as it doesn't look like it'll have any storage... I wouldn't bet a dime on recording ability...

We weren't talking about recording ability. It could potentially be able to talk to a third party TV tuner on the computer.
 
peharri said:
I don't think anyone seriously knows what's in this box. A HD isn't out of the question, even a 250G one. That's, what, $100 retail right now? I bought one for $130 pre-rebate from Staples a couple of months ago. The difficulty I can see isn't with price, it's with squeezing it into the box.

What?! There is no Hard Drive in there. There's absolutely no need and would complicate the equation indefinitely, especially concerning digital rights. It's likely only some sort of an iTunes-esque client that searches certain folders of your home network to find movies and music.

It's just a gateway with a GUI.

-Clive
 
milo said:
Hopefully, it will stream HD. But at this point, that is just speculation, there is NO confirmation that it can stream HD.
Actually, there is circumstantial evidence that it will stream HD. At the keynote, Jobs demo'd the iTV by running the Incredibles (later confirmed to be the trailer) in HD. Now, we don't know how devices were configured and it is still a prototype, more or less.

I think we can be confident (97.25%) that it will stream HD.
 
aswitcher said:
I wonder if this means the death of the headless mac pro mini dream.

I need a Mac near my TV because I only have one aerial point. It now seems that I need to use a mini with its poor graphics card and small HDD, or to somehow fit and imac near my TV. Neither are good options for me.

I do wonder what new stuff Apple will bring out in the next quarter besides the shuffle.

Good point, I don't have an aerial point near my Mac. What's needed is a device that wirelessly transmits the TV signal from the aerial to anywhere in the house. I believe you can already have that with Sky?
 
ArcaneDevice said:
Until then this is going to be perfect for watching poorly encoded podcasts on a HDTV or movies that aren't even widescreen and have no extras for the same price as a DVD! :rolleyes:

The Mini was already a perfect device for this role. Throw in a large hard drive, just AV outputs, ethernet and and wireless connectivity for a multimedia keyboard and it was a standalone media center ready to go in anyone's living room that you could rip your own DVDs to.

In this case you have to have a main unit somewhere else humming away all day and stick this thing in the middle.

There are plenty of other options. I'm interested because I want to rip my dvd's and have them available on a server. A mini isn't really a perfect device to the average consumer because any computer will always be too expensive to put in the living room (and have tied up for one purpose). And what's the big deal about a "main unit"? That would be your computer. You have a computer, don't you? Wouldn't you rather be able to use it for TV and computing, instead of having to buy a second computer?

myamid said:
And if you ask me, Apple is likely NOT to allow eyeTV content from being streamed (since it would inherently hurt their TV SHOW store...)

Not even possible. Apple allows users to convert any movie into formats compatible with iTunes. How would they be able to tell the difference between user created content and recorded TV shows (or ripped DVD's) converted to the same file format and codec?

dmelgar said:
- Sounds like this doesn't have a hard drive, supposed to display on a TV a video bitstream received via network connection. There are already many devices out there that do this, starting at $99. What makes this any better? Big problem with those so far is that you need an excellent 802.11g connection or you get dropouts when playing a DVD. Ethernet is the only thing that makes it reliable.

Seriously, read at least some of the thread, this has been answered many times. It looks like this will probably be 802.11n.

timswim78 said:
- XBOX might be getting HDMI, or maybe not.
If it does, wouldn't it be a paid add on?

timswim78 said:
- Not very convenient to have to have a computer turned on to play DVD's. If your computer is in another room, changing DVD"s will be a real pain in the neck. It would be a whole lot simpler to just have a DVD drive in the unit.

My computer is always on, it just sleeps. And I'll probably just rip all my DVD's. Why is DVD a big deal anyway, don't you already have a DVD player?

timswim78 said:
- Superior to what? FrontRow has nothing on MCE's interface. I've used both, and MCE is better, IMO. (Of course, MCE allows one to record television.)

But you haven't used the updated FR that this will ship with, have you?

timswim78 said:
- No moving parts would make something quieter and cooler. However, this is not a standalone unit, and the need to run a server computer changes the quietness and coolness. I don't really want to look at computer or A/V equipment anyway.

Why would you be looking at a computer? This box is wireless, so the computer can be anywhere in the house.

Really this box is similar to a media center extender. That's about the same price, and that doesn't record TV either. Both seem like a good idea, but MS just hasn't been able to get their Media Center thing to take off.

ddrueckhammer said:
I think Amazon stole their thunder...The Amazon offering at least offers rentals which competes somewhat with Netflix.
But amazon seems to have blown it with huge technical problems, and cumbersome spyware style app. They also don't have a way of playing the videos on your TV, which makes them pretty dead in the water.

digitalbiker said:
That's what I don't get about the people who are in love with this device.

I don't see where it provides any other functionality other than a wireless connection to your computer. Wireless video streaming is nice but $299.00 nice? I say more like $50.00 nice.

If it provided router fuctionality then maybe $120.00 nice.

Either Apple is holding a lot back or they really blew the market analysis. Similar to the overpricing of the Cube a few years back. It's a nice idea but the pricing is ridiculous.

The point you miss is that it will probably use the .n standard instead of the .g. Simply can't be done at the prices you list. Look at the windows media center extenders, they cost about the same. The technology simply can't be done for cheaper yet. The good news is that prices should drop pretty quickly once .n wireless units really start shipping.

EagerDragon said:
Not really, we get the point, but we also see that we can save a lot with a $5 cable by putting a computer next to the TV and get a better video than if we transmit it over the air.

How are you "saving a lot" if you have to buy another computer to leave next to the TV that you probably won't use for anything else? The iTV can stream from the computer you already have, so since you only need ONE computer, it's cheaper overall.
 
Carl Spackler said:
Based on what I saw and understand, the unit requires another computer to provide the content. Essentially, you're remote controlling the media on your Mac.

Thanks for replying. I understand this, but wonder if the iTV's remote control facility extends to you letting browse the iTunes Store and buy material. I'd like to think it would.
 
djfern said:
Well, i see it like this. iTV is just the beginning of something quite new and quite big for apple. Compare it to the release of the original iPod - black and white, audio only, expensive, small capacity. The killer thing about the iPod was less about it's features than it's interface and operability with itunes. It made something - portable music player - easier and more elegant.

And that's what iTV is. Today, if you want to play movies you've downloaded, you need a multi-media DVD player (with divx and mpeg support) and you need to burn discs. Play a CD on the stereo? Hook up your ipod or laptop to a cable. Etc.. This device eliminates the need to burn discs for video and makes it easier to view content - however acquired - that's already on your computer. Bravo. Simple. It's not trying to be everybody's everything. Like i said, the original iPod only played audio. That was enough for a start.

Will they add a hard drive? Probably. Will you be able to download HD quality movies from the internet with this thing? Eventually. But Apple's gonna do it one step at a time. They'll introduce a basic device at first, see what people think and how it does, and add features carefully and slowly over time. This recipe worked wonders with the iPod. I think it will work here too.

Thank you very much for this well-written, well-thought piece. I'm not too sure of the box's capabilities as of now, but we really have to look at where Apple is going with this thing and where it will be five years from now. I haven't bought a single song from the iTMS, never had a single iPod, never bought a TV show or a movie from Apple either, but it doesn't mean I never will. It's not quite there yet when it comes to satisfying the HD buffs, but for many, it will be "good enough" and Apple will sell tons of those. As I already said, five years from now, we'll look back and think: "That is when it all started." It's big. It's really big. As a shareholder, you have no idea how this pleases me. Just give the little box a few years...
 
carfac said:
Maybe you have all the money in the world, but 299 for an airport is pretty extreme. For what it is, it is overpriced by double- at least. Do you really feel good about dropping three bills on a wireless reciever?

But right now, what's the cheaper alternative for playing computer videos on your TV? I can't think of anything, is there one?

It's expensive because it's bleeding edge technology, as overpriced as you think it is, nobody can do it cheaper yet.

The good news is that it's the kind of technology that will get very cheap very fast. Media centers won't keep up, and the pricing gap will get bigger and bigger.

h00ligan said:
yah so basically it does what an xbox 360 can do - a la media center extender.. but you know.. nothing else.

Is that really such a bad thing? The media center extender seems pretty cool (but does it do wireless HD? Does it use .g or .n?). And both are around the same price, aren't they?

BenRoethig said:
iTV is basically a better looking version and even higher priced version of this:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...ender&lp=1&type=product&cp=1&id=1091101680429

But that doesn't do .n or HD. I'm sure a version with the higher specs would cost about the same as the iTV.

kerpow said:
I know I'm going to sound like a complete idiot here...but what does this device do that an S-Video cable can't do?

Send video wirelessly. I can't exactly run an S-Video card to my basement.

ftaok said:
Actually, there is circumstantial evidence that it will stream HD. At the keynote, Jobs demo'd the iTV by running the Incredibles (later confirmed to be the trailer) in HD. Now, we don't know how devices were configured and it is still a prototype, more or less.

What makes you think it was HD? I watched the event online, and he said it was the same video quality as the iTunes store, and made no mention of HD. Do you have a source on the HD thing? I suspect someone just got confused and started a rumor.
 
milo said:
What makes you think it was HD? I watched the event online, and he said it was the same video quality as the iTunes store, and made no mention of HD. Do you have a source on the HD thing? I suspect someone just got confused and started a rumor.
Engadget reported it as being HDTV. Later, someone else (can't remember who) said that it wasn't the Incredibles movie, rather the HD trailer from Apple's site.

Also, Jobs stated that the iTV can do HD resolutions (not necessarily HD streaming) in that photos can be viewed in HD resolutions.

Putting all of this together with the fact that they included component and HDMI outputs, leads me to believe that this device will indeed stream HiDef material.
 
Clive At Five said:
What?! There is no Hard Drive in there. There's absolutely no need and would complicate the equation indefinitely, especially concerning digital rights. It's likely only some sort of an iTunes-esque client that searches certain folders of your home network to find movies and music.

It's just a gateway with a GUI.

-Clive

*sigh*

I'll repeat the points I made just now slowly:

1. Nobody knows what's in the box. Nobody. You think you do. You don't.

1.1 Not even Apple knows, because they haven't finished it yet.

1.2 Anyone saying anything more than "I definitely know that it does this because this specific fact was mentioned at the keynote" is talking out of their Ars.technica.

1.3 If it wasn't announced, it isn't known.

1.4 Responding to a comment that suggests that the box looks too small for an HD with a exclaimative reply as if I'd just said it definitely had one is, frankly, ridiculous.

2. The box is small. It's been described as half the size of a Mac mini.

2.1 Therefore, as I just posted, I can see them as having difficulty fitting an HD in this box.

3. We don't know what else Apple is coming up with. There are a variety of possibilities:

3.1 Apple intends to put an HD in this machine so it can act like a hub. This is a possibility, but as I mentioned in point 2.1, it seems unlikely.

3.2 Apple intends to only allow it to be used with computers, as suggested by many critics posting here.

3.3 Apple intends to release more hardware, for example, a cheap, dedicated, home server box.

3.99 But all of these are possibilities, some more likely than others. You don't know, and criticising it for doing/not doing any of these is premature

(In addition to the 3.x options described above, it's also possible that Apple intends to allow the box to be hooked up to a .Mac account, with everything streamed to it. I meant to mention it at the time and forgot)

As far as the comment about making it needlessly complex, no, putting an HD in the machine wouldn't make it more complex. For users who intend to use it with their existing networks, they can ignore the HD. For users who intend to use it as their sole media access point, it simplifies the situation as it means they don't have to set up a seperate server. In terms of the hardware, it strikes me as quite likely the machine will have some kind of storage, if only a limited amount of flash enough for buffering, storing settings, and containing the OS, so the hardware itself should not become any more complex though including an HD.

Let me repeat my main point though:

What we know so far are the minimum specs. We know it'll provide access to iTunes content, onto a TV, in full HD. We know that for some reason it has USB ports. It has full wireless and wireline networking access. It's half the size of a Mac mini. It certainly isn't a "Video Airport Express" as some suggest.

- Criticising it for needing to be used with a computer is premature. You don't know that.
- Criticising it for lacking storage is premature. You don't know that; even assuming it does there are multiple ways in which Apple can overcome that.

Not even Apple knows exactly what it will release next year. It has an idea. It has minimum specs. It's still under development if close to completion. The full story will come out when the device is released.

Right now, there's enough information for us to know that even the minimum that may be in the machine's a good thing.
 
MacProGuy said:
Personally, I think it's incredible... and I also think the price point is fine.
Me too
Why not make it have a DVD player as well? I mean, think of the broad appeal this device could INSTANTLY have at, say, a $399 price point...

I wouldn't rule that out in the long term. But in the short term, remember this is a device that acts as a front-end to an iTunes based media library system. Adding a DVD wouldn't be unwelcome, but it'd be like those hybrid DVD-VHS players you see, a strange mixture of redundant technologies whose presense reflects legacy requirements more than clean elegant design.

It'd be fairly un-Apple. Imagine if the Mac mini, as a switcher box, had a built-in second PC that runs Windows, with a switch on the front to allow you to flick between the two. That's what adding a DVD player to the iTV is like.

Which doesn't mean it'll not happen.
 
ftaok said:
Engadget reported it as being HDTV. Later, someone else (can't remember who) said that it wasn't the Incredibles movie, rather the HD trailer from Apple's site.

Also, Jobs stated that the iTV can do HD resolutions (not necessarily HD streaming) in that photos can be viewed in HD resolutions.

Putting all of this together with the fact that they included component and HDMI outputs, leads me to believe that this device will indeed stream HiDef material.

Seriously, what would be the point of including component and HDMI (and no composite) if it couldn't do HD material?

Too many unknowns at this point, here's my questions:
Does the inclusion of the ports indicate HD material from itunes at some point (secret deathblow to Blue-Ray and HD-DVD)?
If you have multiple iTVs can each pull different data from the server at the same time?


If I got one of these this my understanding of how it would work:
1: Get and eyetv hybrid for cable and HD signals and possibly rip DVDs to comp
2: Use iTV to pull programs from comp to projector
3: Watch content
 
carfac said:
No, I really think Apple failed on this one. Even for those few this may fit a need for can find much cheaper alternatives. For those that say, "Wait, we do not know all it can do", I say open your eyes- the form is not big enough for anything else, and the price is too low to be a REAL Media Center. I wish it were otherwise, I WANT an apple Media Center- and I am prepared to pay for it. But this is not it- this is a mistake.


I would be hard pressed to say that Apple "Failed" on a product that is a preview, not even in production as yet. This may or may not be a failure in the end, time will tell. But I think one very important thing to note is that this is expected to work with both PC and MAC. This is yet another way to boost Apple into what is (undoubtedly) where "computing" is going for the mass consumer, which is as their main entertainment hub. To be able to do that without having to force people into buying a computer other than what they are used to, or have and don't see a need to upgrade, allows Apple to position themselves as the leaders in the market (as they did with the iPod). What they do from there, is anyone's guess. Pricing, features etc will certainly change (down and up respectively (hopefully)). It may or may not fail, but this was a demo of an upcoming (and much talked about) product.
 
It would be handy if it could access the media strait off your ipod. Imagine walking into anybody's house who had an itv and being able to display all your media through there entertainment system. Maybe it could work though some sort of new streaming ipod dock.
 
Motley said:
Seriously, what would be the point of including component and HDMI (and no composite) if it couldn't do HD material?

Too many unknowns at this point, here's my questions:
Does the inclusion of the ports indicate HD material from itunes at some point (secret deathblow to Blue-Ray and HD-DVD)?
If you have multiple iTVs can each pull different data from the server at the same time?


If I got one of these this my understanding of how it would work:
1: Get and eyetv hybrid for cable and HD signals and possibly rip DVDs to comp
2: Use iTV to pull programs from comp to projector
3: Watch content
I agree. I don't know if they'll actually ever offer HD movies from the iTMS, but it could happen.

My plan is similar to your understanding of how the iTV may work. I'd like to have a Mac in the home office (originally, I was thinking $799 Mac mini in the family room connected to the 46" HDTV) that's hooked up to an eyeTV 500 for recording QAM HDTV streams. Maybe throw in a couple of external hard drives for gobs of storage. I could attach it to a cheap 15" LCD (or a nice 20" widescreen if I feel like splurging).

Down in the family room, I'd put in the iTV and have it stream material from the Mac in the office. Hopefully, the newest version of Front Row will be open enough for el Gato to update the eyeTV software to fully integrate with Front Row. That way, I could view my recorded shows down in the family room.

Now, this is what I would hope for. The ability to control the Mac in the office from the iTV itself. Not just the Front Row streaming, but having a BT keyboard and mouse connected to the iTV and seeing the desktop of the Mac upstairs. This would allow for web browsing, Quicken, etc. right from the couch, rather than having to go upstairs. I guess I could achieve this by connecting the Mac right to the TV in the family room, but the issue is having the extra Hard drives located in the family room and such.

I'll have to wait along with everyone else to see what this thing can do. In the mean time, hopefully there will be some information that comes out that can help me along with my decision to buy a Mac mini or an iMac.

ft
 
milo said:
Is there really that much difference between 640 and 720? Seems funny to say one is "not pretty" but those extra 80 lines (and no difference in the other dimension) make it acceptable.

The difference isn't 80 lines. The difference is between 640x480 and 1280x720. That is a HUGE difference in the # of pixles (307,200 vs. 921,600). Also, it's not clear whether the 640x480 videos for sale are interlaced or progressive. Since they're advertised as "near" DVD quality (720x480, interlaced), I'm guessing they're interlaced. In that case divide the 307,200 number in half. That's almost an order of magnitude difference between what they're selling and true HD.

-Sean
 
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