iMac g3 problem??!!??

[iPhil]

I got an iMac g3 400, 128mb ram,12Gb hd and dvd drive ..

It has No os on it, Heres my question: how do i update firmware on it with no os on it before updating it to tiger?

its my first Mac ever and im an "Adder" to a windows home ..

got tiger os and more memory (256mb of ram) today from owc aka macsales

any sorta help would be greatful .. so pls be gentle with still a n00b ..

thanks,
iphil

 

[alex_ant]

I don't know if that's possible, I think it has to be running an OS because the firmware updater is a Mac OS application. So, install any OS on it that will run, update the firmware, wipe and install whatever OS you want.

 

[iPhil]

iMac g3

I don't know if that's possible, I think it has to be running an OS because the firmware updater is a Mac OS application. So, install any OS on it that will run, update the firmware, wipe and install whatever OS you want.

Okay alex

thanks

got some other questions:

1) Should i upgrade to 384mb of memory before tiger ?

2) should i do all the updates after tiger?

3) Do i need to repair permissions after updates to 10.4.2?

remember im a n00b on the Mac System and its my first update like this

thanks,
iphil

 

[mklos]

I would put as much RAM in it as you can afford. Mac OS X loves RAM just like XP does on the PC side. I would say the bare minimum is 256MB. 384 would be great if you can afford it. That iMac takes PC100 or PC133 DIMMs, unlike the older iMacs which take PC100 SODIMMs.

DO NOT ATTEMPT TO INSTALL OS X WITHOUT DOING THE FIRMWARE UPGRADE FIRST!!!!

That will put you in a world of hurt, which is a HUGE pain in the @$$ to get out of. I did it once by accident, and it took me a good 3 to 4 hours to get the iMac back working normally again. Basically if you try to install OS X without the latest firmware installed, the OS X installer screen will tell you that you need to install the latest firmware update before proceeding. You think, ok I'll just restart, and WHAM, no reboot. If this happens, DO NOT RESET THE PRAM! This will only dig the hole deeper.

So you will have to get at least I think Mac OS 9.1 installed on it somehow to do the firmware update. I would see what firmware version needs to be installed for Mac OS X to work properly on a G3 (see the support section for OS X on Apple's website) and then start the iMac up and hold the Apple+Option+O+F keys until you're told to release them. This will boot the iMac to the firmware (kinda like getting in to the BIOS on a PC), only you don't really see anything. There it should tell you the Firmware version currently installed. If it matches the firmware version, or higher then you should be ok, otherwise you'll need at least OS 9.1 to install the latest firmware update for your iMac G3 like I said before.

If you run into any other problems, please write back to us. Were here to help!

 

[iPhil]

I would put as much RAM in it as you can afford. Mac OS X loves RAM just like XP does on the PC side. I would say the bare minimum is 256MB. 384 would be great if you can afford it. That iMac takes PC100 or PC133 DIMMs, unlike the older iMacs which take PC100 SODIMMs.

DO NOT ATTEMPT TO INSTALL OS X WITHOUT DOING THE FIRMWARE UPGRADE FIRST!!!!

That will put you in a world of hurt, which is a HUGE pain in the @$$ to get out of. I did it once by accident, and it took me a good 3 to 4 hours to get the iMac back working normally again. Basically if you try to install OS X without the latest firmware installed, the OS X installer screen will tell you that you need to install the latest firmware update before proceeding. You think, ok I'll just restart, and WHAM, no reboot. If this happens, DO NOT RESET THE PRAM! This will only dig the hole deeper.

So you will have to get at least I think Mac OS 9.1 installed on it somehow to do the firmware update. I would see what firmware version needs to be installed for Mac OS X to work properly on a G3 (see the support section for OS X on Apple's website) and then start the iMac up and hold the Apple+Option+O+F keys until you're told to release them. This will boot the iMac to the firmware (kinda like getting in to the BIOS on a PC), only you don't really see anything. There it should tell you the Firmware version currently installed. If it matches the firmware version, or higher then you should be ok, otherwise you'll need at least OS 9.1 to install the latest firmware update for your iMac G3 like I said before.

If you run into any other problems, please write back to us. Were here to help!

Okay, the iMac g3 doesnt have Os 9.1.. i already bought tiger and 256mb ram stick from macsales..

So tiger has "Classic" on the dvd or no ?

 

[FocusAndEarnIt]

Okay, the iMac g3 doesnt have Os 9.1.. i already bought tiger and 256mb ram stick from macsales..

So tiger has "Classic" on the dvd or no ?

Yes, it does. On my Tiger disks that came with my iBook, it was on the second one.

 

[iPhil]

Yes, it does. On my Tiger disks that came with my iBook, it was on the second one.

In the tiger box theres only "tiger" dvd and iWork trial dvd and setup books..

theres no other dvds in the box .. already checked ...

 

[mklos]

I don't think the Tiger DVD has Classic on it. Even if it did, its a version that ONLY runs inside of OS X. See which version of the firmware you have and what's needed off Apple's website.

Here is a link to the Apple Support Firmware requirements page:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86117

If you have an iMac with a slot-loading optical drive then you will need the update to iMac Firmware Update 4.1.9, which is located here:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75130

It does require you to have at least OS 9.1 installed in order to do the update as it installs from the OS, and then you have to flash the firmware chip as you will see in the firmware update instructions. You can get OS 9.1 fairly cheap these days. Heck, someone may even give it to you. I may even have it around here somewhere. I'll let you know.

 

[mklos]

Yes, it does. On my Tiger disks that came with my iBook, it was on the second one.

Well you have iBook Restore DVD's, not a genuine OEM Tiger Installation DVD like he does. Those are 2 completely different things. Like I said previously, even if it does, its a version that will only work inside of OS X.

 

[iPhil]

I don't think the Tiger DVD has Classic on it. Even if it did, its a version that ONLY runs inside of OS X. See which version of the firmware you have and what's needed off Apple's website.

Here is a link to the Apple Support Firmware requirements page:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86117

If you have an iMac with a slot-loading optical drive then you will need the update to iMac Firmware Update 4.1.9, which is located here:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75130

It does require you to have at least OS 9.1 installed in order to do the update as it installs from the OS, and then you have to flash the firmware chip as you will see in the firmware update instructions. You can get OS 9.1 fairly cheap these days. Heck, someone may even give it to you. I may even have it around here somewhere. I'll let you know.

The iMac is leaving connecticut,i bought off Ebay it should be here sometime the 13th of oct .. ground shipping ..

So after the 4.1.9 firmware update, can i do erase and install ?

 

[mklos]

It may be useful to ask the seller if it has ever had OS X on it. If so, then it already has the firmware update installed. Maybe you've already done that, I don't know. If the hard drive is completely erased, then the only option will be to just "Install OS X". If you want to erase the HD just to be absolutely sure that the hard drive is erased, you can go to Disk Utilities in the Utilities Menu and then erase the hard drive.

I may have OS 9.1 somewhere, or at least a burned backup CD of it...I can mail it to you for free if I can find it.

 

[iPhil]

It may be useful to ask the seller if it has ever had OS X on it. If so, then it already has the firmware update installed. Maybe you've already done that, I don't know. If the hard drive is completely erased, then the only option will be to just "Install OS X". If you want to erase the HD just to be absolutely sure that the hard drive is erased, you can go to Disk Utilities in the Utilities Menu and then erase the hard drive.

I may have OS 9.1 somewhere, or at least a burned backup CD of it...I can mail it to you for free if I can find it.

I just email him about OS problem, once i find out the answer will post a snippett of it on here..

If the answer to OS problem is "No" , then yes mklos i will take your offer for 9.1

 

[rainman::|:|]

Okay, I've been reading as I'm trying to fix my parent's iMac 333... mklos, I think the scenario you described above happened here, the iMac had 10.0 installed back when it was my machine, and when I moved out, I had them use OS 9 because X wasn't stable yet. Cut to last month, they were having cable modem issues so I installed Panther, which I thought was a much better fit for them anyway. The Panther installer did not ask me to update the firmware (presumably it was up-to-date through OS 9's Software Update), but then the iMac wouldn't start up much of the time... sometimes it would boot into open firmware, and i reset the PRAM several times to try and get it to the point where I could run the firmware updater, it crashed before I could run it, now the iMac won't boot at all. Am I screwed? How did you get out of your issue? I can't seem to boot from CD, it chimes and the light never turns green. Any help appreciated...

[edit] i should mention the CD drive wouldn't take the second panther disc, so I had to stop the install, but all the essentials should have been on the first disc...

 

[iPhil]

iMac g3

The seller says i need to install 9.2 before you install 10.0-10.2..

the harddrive was zeroed out to protect previous owners identity ..

Ok so, i need 9.1 or 9.2 before updating to tiger ?

will 9.2 work for 4.1.9 firmware update?

or does it have to be 9.1 for for 4.1.9 update?

Since i'm an "Adder" i will be connecting to Lan and yes i know where to look @ if im in trouble with networking stuff.. i already have it bookmarked in my favorites...


Thank You E for producing such through manual

thanks,
iphil

 

[mklos]

You DO NOT need to install OS 9.2 in order to install any version of OS X. I think what he meant is, that if you want OS 9 on it and OS X, you need install OS 9 first and then install OS X as once you install OS X, you cannot install plain OS 9 without erasing the HD and starting over. Its like trying to install Windows 98SE overtop of Windows XP Home/Pro. It just won't happen.

So I can send you either a burned copy of OS 9.1, or OS 9.2.1 so you can do the firmware upgrade. If you need it, then email me at mklos1@mac.com and I'll mail it to you.

 

[iPhil]

You DO NOT need to install OS 9.2 in order to install any version of OS X. I think what he meant is, that if you want OS 9 on it and OS X, you need install OS 9 first and then install OS X as once you install OS X, you cannot install plain OS 9 without erasing the HD and starting over. Its like trying to install Windows 98SE overtop of Windows XP Home/Pro. It just won't happen.

So I can send you either a burned copy of OS 9.1, or OS 9.2.1 so you can do the firmware upgrade. If you need it, then email me at mklos1@mac.com and I'll mail it to you.

Does that mean the firmware is updated to 4.1.9 or still should check firmware before installing tiger?

thanks,
iphil

 

[mklos]

Okay, I've been reading as I'm trying to fix my parent's iMac 333... mklos, I think the scenario you described above happened here, the iMac had 10.0 installed back when it was my machine, and when I moved out, I had them use OS 9 because X wasn't stable yet. Cut to last month, they were having cable modem issues so I installed Panther, which I thought was a much better fit for them anyway. The Panther installer did not ask me to update the firmware (presumably it was up-to-date through OS 9's Software Update), but then the iMac wouldn't start up much of the time... sometimes it would boot into open firmware, and i reset the PRAM several times to try and get it to the point where I could run the firmware updater, it crashed before I could run it, now the iMac won't boot at all. Am I screwed? How did you get out of your issue? I can't seem to boot from CD, it chimes and the light never turns green. Any help appreciated...

[edit] i should mention the CD drive wouldn't take the second panther disc, so I had to stop the install, but all the essentials should have been on the first disc...

Since you have a 333MHz iMac which doesn't have a VGA out port, this will be even more difficult than it was for me. The one I worked like the one iphil has, includes a vga port on the outside of the case. What happens is that when you try to install OS X without doing the firmware update, it fakes the computer into thinking that the filter board is bad. If you call Apple, or take it in to get repaired, they will tell you its bad when actually its not. The key is to get the firmware update installed. Since you're a Mac user who sounds like you've been using Macs for quite a while, you saw that the display didn't turn on, and thus reset the PRAM. Actually, all you did was make things 10x worse by doing that. When I did when I did that is I took the RAM out, unplugged the computer, pressed the CUDA reset switch ONCE which resets the power going into the board and I was able to get the computer to try and boot, and it would boot, but anytime I had to restart I would have to fool around trying to get the computer to boot again. Thats why this is a time consuming process. I was able to use an external display to get OS 9 installed and do the firmware update. The internal display won't kick in until you do the firmware update. This is why you need the external VGA port.

What may (notice "may") work for you, is if you can get ahold of an old Macintosh Display with the old style display connector. I think thats either a 14 or 15 pin connector and will kinda look like the male end of a parallel cable with only 14 or 15 pins in 2 rows only unlike a VGA cable which has 3 rows. When you go to pull the logicboard assembly out of the 333 MHz iMac, you have to take the display connector off and you'll see the connector and what it looks like. So if you can get a display that has that connector on it, and can make it boot from an OS 9 CD then erase the HD and reinstall OS 9.1 (bare min OS for the firmware update), do the firmware update, and then restart the iMac into OS 9 one more time, then shut it down, unplug the external display, and then plug the internal 15" display back in and it should work.

Like I said in my first post, this is a huge pain in the @$$ to get working. Its a wonder Apple didn't get sued over this and a ton of people did the very same thing you did when OS X came out. They did get sued over some G3 processors not working with OS X, but it had nothing to do with this particular problem.

Let me know if you have any problems. You can even use the email address I've provided for iphil if you want.

 

[mklos]

Does that mean the firmware is updated to 4.1.9 or still should check firmware before installing tiger?

thanks,
iphil

You need to check the firmware version first because if its not up to date, you have a dead iMac on your hands, which is a pain in the @$$ to get back working. Better safe than sorry.

 

[California]

Chiming in -- as I have in the past year refurbed/upgraded/updated seven old g3 imacs, from 233 - 600mhz for friends and family. My solution: don't bother with Tiger, stay in 10.3.9.

IF you are going to bother with Tiger, make sure it is a DV G3 iMac that has a gig of ram and at least a 80 gig hd in it, then give it to your mom or little sister. They are great machines, real workhorses, but I'm still not convinced about Tiger's enhancements; and especially not sold on needing them on g3s.

 

[iPhil]

You need to check the firmware version first because if its not up to date, you have a dead iMac on your hands, which is a pain in the @$$ to get back working. Better safe than sorry.

okay mk,

hopefully thursday night i'll be able to check firmware on the imac ..

Oh mk, you got mac mail from me ..

thanks,
iphil

 

[mklos]

I would agree for the most part with that. I certainly wouldn't run Tiger on a 233MHz iMac and expect great things, but for something iphil's 400 MHz iMac G3, it will run just fine. It won't be a powerhouse, but it will be a nice computer to do the general things like internet, email, using MS Office for OS X, iChat, etc. No games will play very well at all , and things like Photoshop are pretty much out for this model of iMac.

I do have Tiger installed on my mom's 233 MHz iMac G3 with 256MB of RAM, and the HD upgraded from 4 to 6 GB and it boots a little slow, but the OS runs good for what she does with it.

I have a 500 MHz G3 iBook with 320MB of RAM and Tiger installed and it runs great. Boots fast, and runs the general stuff really well so you iphil should be fine with his 400 MHz iMac G3 with 384 MB of RAM.

I will agree in saying that Panther (OS X.3) does run a little better than Tiger on the older G3 Macs though. This iMac will be a good computer to get your feet wet with OS X and the Mac in general. Then when you have the money and want something with more speed and functionality, get either a MacMini, eMac, or iMac and you'll be really in love with the Mac. Just don't expect a powerhouse like I said before. It won't be dead slow, but it won't be instant either. It will be like running XP on a 600 or 700 MHz PC if you know what thats like.

 

[iPhil]

Chiming in -- as I have in the past year refurbed/upgraded/updated seven old g3 imacs, from 233 - 600mhz for friends and family. My solution: don't bother with Tiger, stay in 10.3.9.

IF you are going to bother with Tiger, make sure it is a DV G3 iMac that has a gig of ram and at least a 80 gig hd in it, then give it to your mom or little sister. They are great machines, real workhorses, but I'm still not convinced about Tiger's enhancements; and especially not sold on needing them on g3s.

well I already bought tiger because the iMacs drive was zeroed out,so thats why
i cant do that and i wanna to be up to date ..

Actually i didnt want an "old" version of Mac OS and wanted to see the new features for myself

 

[iPhil]

mk,

you're dead-on what i was planning on using it for .. No WoW,Doom3 etc ..

just iphoto,itunes,net,word docs and Of Course MacRumors surfing n posting ...

i'll prolly use a few widgets but not 20 all @ once ...

if i wanted 20 widgets @ once, would have up'ed the ram higher since its my first Mac .. Hence only simple tasks @ first

I dont wanna be scaried by Mac OS X .. so its baby steps for this n00b until i feel comfy with OS..

thanks,
iphil

 

[mklos]

mk,

you're dead-on what i was planning on using it for .. No WoW,Doom3 etc ..

just iphoto,itunes,net,word docs and Of Course MacRumors surfing n posting ...

i'll prolly use a few widgets but not 20 all @ once ...

if i wanted 20 widgets @ once, would have up'ed the ram higher since its my first Mac .. Hence only simple tasks @ first

I dont wanna be scaried by Mac OS X .. so its baby steps for this n00b until i feel comfy with OS..

thanks,
iphil

Check your email, I've replied 2 different times. I already have the CD burned for you and am testing it on one of my iBooks currently to make sure OS 9.2.1 installs fine. My only fear is that your iMac won't ready burned CDs very well. 98% of them don't have that problem so it should be ok, but you never know.

 

[iPhil]

Check your email, I've replied 2 different times. I already have the CD burned for you and am testing it on one of my iBooks currently to make sure OS 9.2.1 installs fine. My only fear is that your iMac won't ready burned CDs very well. 98% of them don't have that problem so it should be ok, but you never know.

okay, mk

i just realised that after u said that about burned cd reading, im hoping that i wont gett that of "not reading burned cds" disease lol hehe


mk: after i submit this,i'll reply to you on cds..



thanks,
iphil