16" hot and noisy WITHOUT external monitor

[MostRecents]

I have a maxed out 2019 16", i.e. 5500M. Over time the heat issue has gotten worse and worse. It's got to the point it closes the MBP off, or at least stops video play.

But this is all without an external monitor.

Typical real world cases where the MBP will overheat are multiple youtube tabs open on FF, or a tab open (on pause) plus VLC running, or a YT video playing whilst also downloading something.

What is going on? Is it bad software? Bad hardware? I've been using MBPs (and a few Airs) since 2007 and never had this issue with any of them. Or could it be something else, like laying the laptop on a bed? Not that I've found a desk any better.

I've ordered a 5600M model (at great cost), and I've found the instructions for applying more thermal paste to the 5500M model, and I'm debating between these two options.

Thoughts? This is honestly the worst (and yet most expensive) MB I've bought from Apple.

 

[GumaRodak]

maybe try another browser? What is causing the cpu draw? Is your radeon dgpu running or the intel gpu? If you use it in bed be carefull to not block the air vents...

 

[MostRecents]

I've checked and whilst on bed I don't think the vents are blocked.

The thing about another browser is that it happens without using a browser at all. I can be watching something on VLC, downloading something, and running another task or other, and suddenly it says it's 80'C.

It is always the Radeon, as I think I have the Intel turned off. Is that not a good idea?

 

[MostRecents]

Oh, for CPU draw it's usually anything running video or downloading. Sometimes the CPU will get stuck really high and iStats will say it's 'kernel process' or something similar, which obviously I don't know what that is or where it's coming from.

 

[ght56]

How often are you using the dedicated graphics when not using an external display? If you are doing things like browsing, presumably you should be on the integrated graphics unless you have manually enabled the dedicated graphics.

I've noticed that the 16-inch can get VERY hot on a bed when under load. I believe this has to do with the positioning of the vents as well as a tendency for hot air to collect, recirculate, and further increase temp. Plushy comforters can make temps rapidly spike. Do you have the same issues if you perform the same activities but sit the Pro on a hard, flat surface?

 

[MostRecents]

I've basically disabled the integrated graphics. I will try re-enabling them.

Yes, the heat issue can happen on a hard surface, or even when being held in the air. It's probably worse on the bed, but it's not exclusive.

 

[MostRecents]

Wow. Okay. That's made a huge difference.

What is the point of the dedicated GPU then?

 

[ght56]

Wow. Okay. That's made a huge difference.

What is the point of the dedicated GPU then?

The dedicated GPU is useful for more graphic-intensive programs, but it does mean noticeably more heat. The 5600M GPU is much more efficient than the 5300/5500, and if you need to use the dedicated GPU a lot, I highly recommend the 5600M as it makes vast improvements in not just performance, but also efficiency (meaning better battery life as well as lower temps and lower fan speeds.) However, if the integrated graphics are sufficient for most-to-all of your use, then the specific discrete GPU is not really a big issue IMO.

 

[Imixmuan]

I'm glad turning off the dedicated GPU worked for you. Skinny Macs have very poor thermal managment, if you don't believe me, watch some Louis Rossman videos sometime. On the PowerPC (and increasingly the early Intel mac) forum we deal with these sorts of issues all the time on our ageing, decrepit hardware. Ublock origin add-on in Firefox or extension in Chrome (or most Chrome clones like Vivaldi and Opera) will block most ads and trackers, making your browser much quicker. In one one hour session on youtube it blocked 262 ads or trackers or scripts for me today. Not even joking. H264ify extension will force H.264 video so youtube will not serve up V8/V9 videos. You will loose some of the higher resolutions, which may be unacceptable to you. In H264ify if you want you can even turn off 60fps and only get fed 30fps, which I find perfectly acceptable, but then again I am a idiot, and still use a Powerbook G4 running Leopard. Sounds like the new M1 macs will completely solve a lot of these overheating issues, but if you take some of our lowend advice, your now obsolete 2019 Intel macbook pro will still thank you.

 

[MostRecents]

Running Leopard? You should upgrade to Snow Leopard, that was/is my favourite OS version Apple have done.

If I got the 5600M, and again disabled integrated graphics, would I get better performance without the heat? What I mean by this is with the same lack of heat I am getting with integrated, but with better performance as far as processor speed and framerate and so on.

Otherwise I might just send the 5600M back when it arrives, and then wait a couple years for the second gen/refresh of the first Apple ARM 16".

 

[svanstrom]

I've basically disabled the integrated graphics. I will try re-enabling them.

Yes, the heat issue can happen on a hard surface, or even when being held in the air. It's probably worse on the bed, but it's not exclusive.

Why did you disable the integrated graphics?

The obvious (but never easy to say in a nice way) second part of that question is of course "if you don't know what you're doing". So please just assume that I'd found a nice way of putting that in there. 😂

 

[MostRecents]

I was having stuttering on videos, whether browser or vlc. Not a valid reason to do it?

 

[ght56]

If I got the 5600M, and again disabled integrated graphics, would I get better performance without the heat? What I mean by this is with the same lack of heat I am getting with integrated, but with better performance as far as processor speed and framerate and so on.

Otherwise I might just send the 5600M back when it arrives, and then wait a couple years for the second gen/refresh of the first Apple ARM 16".

I was having stuttering on videos, whether browser or vlc. Not a valid reason to do it?

From a heat perspective: there is more heat when on the 5600M than with integrated only, but a good bit less than with the 5300M or 5500M. When on the 5600M, it takes more to make the fans ramp than with the 5500M.

From a performance perspective: I get significantly better performance with my 5600M 16-inch than on my 5500M even though they had the same CPU, although this is only noticeable with more intensive applications such as when using virtual machines that can use GPU acceleration or exporting a large video file. Presumably, some of this is attributable to the 5600M's better performance, and some of this is because the 5600M uses less power and generates less waste heat than the 5500M, leaving more power/cooling resources for the CPU, ultimately equating to less thermal throttling.

Unless you are using external displays (which forces the dedicated GPU to be used), for your described usage scenario this is not a graphics intensive workload. But, if you wish to use the dedicated GPU a lot for any reason including the stuttering issue, the 5600M is great.

However, before going that far, there is a middle option to address the stuttering: try making a second user account, locking that account (staying logged in), and then log back in to your regular account. For some reason this seems to use both the integrated and dedicated graphics cards, and it vastly reduces much of the stuttering you are experiencing.

 

[MostRecents]

I always create a second admin account on Apple computers in case I need them repaired. I'll try what you suggest.

Thank you for your advice and for your overview of the 5600M. I'll figure out what I want to do.

Have you seen the thermal paste fix? Here is what I am talking about - https://redd.it/gs6bal - I might try it this weekend on the 5500M machine.

 

[jaduffy007]

Wow. Okay. That's made a huge difference.

What is the point of the dedicated GPU then?

Indeed. Also, what's the use of the i9 when...to avoid heat issues, I had to use Turbo Boost Switcher Pro to throttle the cpu 90% of the time?? My solution? I bought a 13" MBP M1 and dumped my $3400 16"...and I could not be happier. The performance diff is minor and I have NO ISSUES with heat, fan noise, etc...with external monitor. It's a laptop that I can use...wait for it...on my lap !! The 16", despite many great features, was the worse Apple product I've ever bought.

 

[MostRecents]

Totally agree, but I really want the larger screen format though. Don't think I could move down to a 13. Hopefully they'll have ARM 16"s end of this year or in a year or so.

 

[svanstrom]

I was having stuttering on videos, whether browser or vlc. Not a valid reason to do it?

It'd call that a valid reason for thinking that that's what you should do.

Honestly, interface-wise MacOS has become a bit of a mixed bag of messes.

On one hand you have easy user access to settings that (like in this case) can take a user from an annoying problem straight to making the computer really stop working; and on the other hand there's a security layer that prevents experienced superusers just straight up do what we're used to (yes, I know it can be disabled).

Buuut… to get back to your problem: You shouldn't have these problems without some real heavy load; and you shouldn't have stuttering videos with the base settings to begin with.

In your position I would start by looking at if this happens when the heat-dissipating techniques are allowed to function properly. Meaning that the computer has open air on the sides, isn't used in an inappropriately hot space, and that whatever is underneath it isn't acting like insulation in any shape or form.

Just to make sure I would even consider placing the computer on something that's great at conducting heat, or simply a raiser/stand of some sort: https://satechi.net/products/satech...ops-notebooks-and-tablets?variant=27141044489. (I chose to link to that one simply because I'm considering buying it myself; for unrelated reasons.)

If that doesn't fix your problem I would take a backup, and then go through all the things that can be reset.

For a Mac that (depending on the exact hardware) means things like PRAM, NVRAM, and SMC.

In this situation I would expect that to most likely fix a non-hardware problem; but if it doesn't, then I would go on with almost the full process as if I were to sell it (lazily just leaving out the deauthorisation step). Meaning booting into recovering mode and properly wiping the whole drive. Somewhere here I'd also reset the stuff above again, and then reinstall MacOS.

I would then in absolutely no way shape or form even connect the backup to the computer, or set it up with my information.

Instead I would start to download (if needed) the bare minimum to test the conditions that caused the problems that I had.

If the problems persist after all that, then there's a hardware problem; and unless you at that point know exactly what you're doing, then you take your hardware to a professional that knows what they're doing (preferably by contacting Apple). (Also, at this step you'd problem kick yourself if you lazily left out the deauthorisation step above.)

 

[MostRecents]

Thank you. I have two points re your response.

One, whilst I don't think it is exclusive to using on a bed, let's say it is. What has Apple done that, for the first time (in my experience) in 14-15 years, their laptop cannot be used on a bed without it overheating?

Two, you keep emphasising that I don't know what I'm doing, and perhaps I don't. However, what is so wrong with disabling the integrated graphics? If they aren't sufficient for my typical use (e.g. multiple video sources open at once), why use them? Especially when I have a 5500M in the machine that I paid over a 5300M, etc.

I will say that since I have re-enabled the integrated graphics things again feel choppy, laggy, and things like youtube suddenly require buffering, but surely (the latter at least) all that is a coincidence?

 

[svanstrom]

Thank you. I have two points re your response.

One, whilst I don't think it is exclusive to using on a bed, let's say it is. What has Apple done that, for the first time (in my experience) in 14-15 years, their laptop cannot be used on a bed without it overheating?

Two, you keep emphasising that I don't know what I'm doing, and perhaps I don't. However, what is so wrong with disabling the integrated graphics? If they aren't sufficient for my typical use (e.g. multiple video sources open at once), why use them? Especially when I have a 5500M in the machine that I paid over a 5300M, etc.

I will say that since I have re-enabled the integrated graphics things again feel choppy, laggy, and things like youtube suddenly require buffering, but surely (the latter at least) all that is a coincidence?

First of all, sorry if it seemed like I was going on about you not knowing what you're doing; that wasn't my intention.

However… I can be real brutal with honesty when it comes to teaching a lesson (or a client); and the facts here are that you played with settings without being able to track the consequences of that back to what caused it. And if me being a bit brutal about that will help you either avoid getting into trouble again, or being more vigilant about backtracking what's caused a problem; then it's worth it. Sorry. 🤷‍♂️

I have similar hardware as you, and all I can say is that I don't have your problems with video; and the only time I've like really heard the fans (and the damn thing felt like it would burn through my desk) was when I was transcoding video with handbrake. And the battery was draining faster than my LG UltraFine could feed it. It still didn't shutdown, though.

However… I've never used this MBP in bed (I use an iPad for watching movies in bed).

In the past I've had Apple laptops that definitely have run really hot while watching movies in bed, and considering how the airflow works in the MBP16 I can definitely imagine that you'll run into trouble unless you are careful with making sure that the cooling can work as intended.

As far as why you shouldn't use the 5500M that you paid extra for… well… basically… because your computer will use it when it's needed anyways; that's automatic, and you can't turn that off with stock Apple software (unless you go into the terminal and play with stuff you really should leave alone, unless you really really know that you know what you're doing). So just let it run cooler and with less strain on the battery when it wants to.

Each tool has its purpose, and simply having paid extra for something doesn't make it a good thing to use it all the time; so with similar hardware as you I simply say, let the computer handle itself when it comes to this.

If you're curious about what triggers the more power-hungry graphic processing you can use this app: gfxCardStatus. But I don't recommend you using that for actually changing what's being used, because it has some bugs related to that; it works just fine for just checking what dependencies you got going, though, so I use it just for those times where I need to make sure the battery lasts as long as possible.

I'll pay more attention to video for a while now, and I'll definitely return here with a mea culpa if I notice anything choppy or laggy.

 

[svanstrom]

Did get myself lost in YouTube a bit today, so I for a while disconnected the external display; and made sure nothing else was triggering the discreet graphics.

Safari; 40-ish tabs in 4 windows; 20-ish YouTube tabs.

(Did have other apps open; but that's pretty much ignorable with modern memory management.)

MacBook Pro (16-inch, 2019)
2,3 GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9
16 GB 2667 MHz DDR4
Intel UHD Graphics 630 1536 MB
(AMD Radeon Pro 5500M 4 GB)

No problems.

I could hear the fans only if I was trying to; but it's more quiet than the buildings (quite quiet) waterbased heating.

I was mostly searching through old material looking for something, so not lots of 4K content, though. However, I regularly use Plex on this one, so I've definitely watched lots of 4K material without any problems.

No blocking of any fans; but the non-slip desk cover (polyuretan, with a steel core) is probably not ideally heat conducting. (Having a tilted desk I do need something to keep the MBP from just sliding off.)

In case anyone wonders: No reboots more than forced by system updates; and I usually don't even let it go to sleep.

 

[MostRecents]

>the facts here are that you played with settings without being able to track the consequences of that back to what caused it.

This is a very good point, and I appreciate you making it. I suppose I have always disabled integrated graphics on previous machines when possible, so it's not something I still think about consciously. You are completely correct though that I should have thought about it without prompting.

Whilst as you say you can't permanently disable the dedicated GPU without messing around in terminal, permanently disabing the integrated GPU is a piece of cake (i.e. turning off automatic graphics switching). This is not an obscure option, but there for anyone to touch in System Preferences -> Battery.

Things do thing laggy since turning that off, but that could be me. One thing I have noticed is that I need to buffer video on multiple websites, whereas before I never did. Is that a coincidence? I have slow internet, and this would be a dealbreaker if for some reason buffering is handled as needed on the integrated vs always on on the dedicated.

 

[svanstrom]

Whilst as you say you can't permanently disable the dedicated GPU without messing around in terminal, permanently disabing the integrated GPU is a piece of cake (i.e. turning off automatic graphics switching). This is not an obscure option, but there for anyone to touch in System Preferences -> Battery.

The other way around, I talked about that you can't turn off the switching on of the discreet graphics; so your computer will always use the extra power of it when needed.

Back in the day you could also do that with the stock Apple software; but nowadays it requires getting into the terminal (or using the app that I linked to).

 

[MostRecents]

Sorry, if you read again what you quoted, am I not acknowledging that is what you are saying?

>Whilst as you say you can't permanently disable the dedicated GPU without messing around in terminal

I do ask again whether you know if there would be a difference in buffering between the two GPUs?

I also note that the switching may not be optimal. In fact, some companies advise you disable it entirely to use their software.
e.g. https://support.captureone.com/hc/e...-turned-OFF-in-order-for-C20-to-work-properly

 

[MostRecents]

If anyone has done the thermal paste mod I linked earlier, would be interested to hear your experience with it as well.

I wonder if my 5500M is busted. I just turned off graphics switching to see what would happen, and I'm not running any video at all, just firefox and a download and Music, and the temperature has jumped from 50 to 70 near immediately.

 

[MostRecents]

Closed Firefox, temperature didn't change. Still 70, give or take. Reopened Firefox, added some video, and the temperature floats between 75 and 85, even briefly saying 95 (if that's possible).

This is all with the laptop being held in the air, so no possible blockage of any vent or external heat insulation.

However, with the 5500M forced always on, the lagginess and choppiness is totally gone. No buffering anymore at all either. So I wouldn't re-enable graphics switching - my hands are tied on that.

I think I just got a real POS machine.

Gonna try the heat paste mod, and if that doesn't improve things I will just keep and switch to the 5600M machine.