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512ke and Home-Made HD Enclosure: AUGH!

Gamer9430

Gamer9430

macrumors 68020
Original poster
Apr 22, 2014
2,248
1,405
USA
Alright, I give up. I need the invocation of higher powers to help me with this one.

I took apart a CDRW SCSI enclosure (a blue Lacie to be exact) thinking I could easily put a hard drive in and make it into a HDSC for my 512ke... boy was I wrong on the easy part. I began this project months ago, but never really got into it until today. I was experimenting with AppleTalk with my Power Mac 8500 when I decided to try the HD project again. So I got myself a fresh System 6 System Tools disk, and began to play around with the drive. It wouldn't show up when I tried using the HDSC Setup app. I decided to try plugging it into my 8500 and sure enough it shows up. So I tried formatting it as unallocated, but that kept failing. So I then formatted it as the default HFS, which worked. I then tried installing System 6 to it and that worked too. I tried to plug it into my 512ke again and it failed to boot, nor did it show up when I booted off the System Tools disk or used the HDSC setup app. So @bunnspecial suggested looking at my SCSI termination. The enclosure's SCSI settings are completely bypassed as it plugs into the special CDRW ODD, so the only termination is on the HDD itself, a 1GB Apple-branded Quantum Fireball. Upon inspection, it had no termination pin on it whatsoever, thus not being terminated. So I tried putting one on TE, which made no change. I then tried each one individually, which didn't work either. So now I've hit a standstill and idk where to go next, hence why I'm asking here.

Few notes:

-My 512ke has a MacSnap 2MB upgrade board, which then has a MacSnap SCSI on top of that. With the limited info I found about it online, it doesn't appear to need any additional drivers or anything to work.
-I tried to use my Microsoft MacEnhancer as well incase the MacSnap SCSI wasn't working, but AFAIK it wasn't working with that either because it still failed to show up on the desktop.
-Because I'm using a System Tools disk as opposed to an actual OS disk (which I have failed to find online), any modification I make to the disk on my 8500 causes it to not be bootable on my 512ke, a frustrating problem that's preventing me from trying something like SCSIprobe to see if it's at least seeing the drive in some way.
 
the 512 needs 800k startup disk, os on the 8500 needs 7.5.5 or lower to make a MFS disk for the 512. with the mac snap I think its good up to system 7 if you can find it in 800k images. I suggest 6.0.8 as its pretty easy to find, and should be the correct disk size. Make sure to use disk copy 4.2.2 as 6.3.2 doesn mesh well with the 800k floppies usually. You want to use real 800k disks if possible as 1.44 are high density and will format they usually are not reliable.
 
havokalien said:
the 512 needs 800k startup disk, os on the 8500 needs 7.5.5 or lower to make a MFS disk for the 512. with the mac snap I think its good up to system 7 if you can find it in 800k images. I suggest 6.0.8 as its pretty easy to find, and should be the correct disk size. Make sure to use disk copy 4.2.2 as 6.3.2 doesn mesh well with the 800k floppies usually. You want to use real 800k disks if possible as 1.44 are high density and will format they usually are not reliable.
Click to expand...

Thankfully, I happen to have 800k disks I can use. So I have to boot 7.5.5 on the 8500 in order to make the disk for the 512ke? And should I install the OS on the External HD while using the 8500 or the 512ke? And wouldn't I be able to use System 7 as long as i can get it onto the HD? AFAIK, it should just boot from the external without the need for a different disk, unlike the HD20.
 
Ok, so i took @havokalien's advice. I installed 7.5.5 on my 8500. I then tried connecting the HDD over SCSI to the 8500 while running 7.5.5. I tried running the HD SC Setup app, which still failed. I tried formatting using the Format Disk option in the menubar. I then installed System 6.0.8 to it using the Installer App, selected the one specifically for 512ke and such. I plugged it into the 512ke, tried to boot,didnt boot to disk. So i stuck in the HD SC tools disk, and tried to detect it, still failed to do so. So i really have no clue. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? The termination is still set to TE. Prior to booting 7.5.5, i formatted the HD for the 512ke as Macintosh Standard, instead of Plus.
 
If I'm recalling that series of Fireball, the jumpers are a smaller size in height and pitch to the usual standard. I know I've had larger pitch jumpers that seem to fit but don't make electrical contact.

I also don't remember if that series of drive uses it's own termination power or derives it from the BUS. If it's from the BUS I don't believe the MacSnap SCSI board supplies Term-Power as standard, but had provision for it which was never fitted.

Also, being able to format the drive on a 68K machine, rather than a PPC may be a good move.

Finally, what ROMs are in the 512Ke ?
 
Another update:

I was finally able to format the drive on my 8500 using HD SC 7.5.3 Patched, and I verified it and everything. Even interlaced it to 3:1. I plugged it into my 512ke, and nothing happened. Didn't show up on the desktop, and didn't show up in the Install app. So now it's likely a matter of termination.
 
Here's some specifics on the drive:

It's a 1GB FRBLS 655-0141 *ML60606J1172B*

Above the bar code says: 1080S FB10S023 Rev 01-A S630G

P/N: FB12S012 Rev 01-A
ddc2ea2c45ea23b49227644a84860ff5.jpg

Board

b6a4fa85e894dc53a2802c2472ae8502.jpg

Termination

3fb1bd752a58f7f00793586e91003a26.jpg

Top

I got the pin from another FireBall (500MB, same model to be specific)

Also, how do I check the ROM on my 512ke. As far as I can tell, it's a Mac Plus ROM. At least that's what SCSIprobe says before it crashes
5c070b7965c4ad2431606a833c2941f9.jpg


I got a bunch of crash IDs, including 12, 15, and 02
 
I can't find any "in-depth" documentation on this series of drive even via archive.org so I can't tell which configuration of termination power it uses.

I DID find a reference to an Apple internal Tech Assist article "TA39487 Fireball 1080 Issue" but can't find the article itself.

There is some troubleshooting that could be done with a multimeter and an extremely steady hand.

Does the 540MB from the same series work on the 512ke ?

And, the garbage in the last column on SCSI probe, doesn't bode well. I wouldn't say it's normal, but I'm not 100% certain - usually any odd characters in any field in SCSI Probe indicates a BUS problem of some sort such as reflections which usually indicates a termination or cable problem. Please note that I'm discussing POSSIBILITIES that may need investigating.

One more, check that the red-stripe on the MacSnap SCSI cable is next to the "pin1" marking on the MacSnap SCSI board.

Dove MacSnap SCSI Cable Pin1.jpg
 
MacTech68 said:
After much wrangling of Archive.org and Apple.com I found the article and it seems it's probably not applicable:

https://support.apple.com/kb/TA39487?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US
Click to expand...

Well I guess that's a good thing, :D.

I never would have thought to check how the SCSI cable is plugged into the board, so later I'll open it up and verify it's in properly.

I may be able to do the testing with the multimeter I have.

I'd try using the 500MB FireBall, but that currently has the 7.5.5 install on it, which isn't corrupting my 512ke disks when I insert them, unlike OS 9.
 
Well it looks like @MacTech68 was right, the cable was in wrong. I have it all setup nice now. Only problem is it doesn't automatically boot from the HD, nor does it mount. I have to mount it through HD SC, then open an app on the HD to get it to become the "boot" drive in order to use it without a floppy disk. Any way to resolve that issue?

Also, full background about the project here:
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...are_fid=13661&share_type=t&share_pid=23706700
 
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Reactions: MacTech68
Ahh... the joys of non-keyed header connectors. :rolleyes: o_O :mad:

Glad to see it's working. Regarding the non-booting, have you run disk first aid over the drive?

Also, you could try 'forcibly' blessing the system folder;

Drag the "Finder" file out of the "System Folder" and place it in a new 'untitled folder'. Then take the "System" file and place it in the same folder. Next, drag the "Finder" file, then the "System" file BACK to the "System Folder". With any luck you'll see the folder's icons change as the two files are placed in the same folder.

Otherwise, maybe a bootable floppy of "Norton Utilities" v2.0 might help - make sure the date & time is correct before you run it (without turning off the power inbetween)
 
MacTech68 said:
Ahh... the joys of non-keyed header connectors. :rolleyes: o_O :mad:

Glad to see it's working. Regarding the non-booting, have you run disk first aid over the drive?

Also, you could try 'forcibly' blessing the system folder;

Drag the "Finder" file out of the "System Folder" and place it in a new 'untitled folder'. Then take the "System" file and place it in the same folder. Next, drag the "Finder" file, then the "System" file BACK to the "System Folder". With any luck you'll see the folder's icons change as the two files are placed in the same folder.

Otherwise, maybe a bootable floppy of "Norton Utilities" v2.0 might help - make sure the date & time is correct before you run it (without turning off the power inbetween)
Click to expand...

I'll re-run first aid on it. I'll also try the force bless route. If all else fails, I'll try the Norton Utilities disk. Would it be a problem that I don't have a clock battery? I would hope not being that anyone in their right mind wouldn't leave the original one in there...
 
Alright, so I verified the drive again and it's still reporting as no repairs needed. I tried to follow the force bless method, but I'm slightly confused. When you say "untitled folder" do you mean just leave it as the default title or... because leaving it as the default name "Empty Folder" and doing what you said didn't change the icons (both are still Macintoshes).
 
Sorry, yes 'Empty Folder" is fine. And forgive me, but I'm not certain if Sys 6 places an icon on the "System Folder" - perhaps that's a Sys 7 thing. It's the icon on the folder that should change.
 
MacTech68 said:
Sorry, yes 'Empty Folder" is fine. And forgive me, but I'm not certain if Sys 6 places an icon on the "System Folder" - perhaps that's a Sys 7 thing. It's the icon on the folder that should change.
Click to expand...

Ok sounds good. Sadly, didn't make a difference doing that. And I believe it is a system 7 thing because it made no difference on system 6 as far as I could tell.
 
So I tried Norton Utilities on it with the disk verification tool. Forgot to set the date, so I ignored that correction. Here's the log:
273f5beea5161363d83e68738bd2bda2.jpg
3d00beb5e45a1d3e4a287b822f4d8303.jpg
73704eecfc87074e670fafa36af55107.jpg
5171f98e0265ad7a63baca0d2ebd03ad.jpg
 
Did it "repair" anything else? And I take it from your lack of glee that it still doesn't boot ?

Try turning on the drive first, then waiting 15 seconds or so, then turn on the Mac. If THAT doesn't work try it the other way around - seriously.

It could be the interleaving of the drive. If you can reformat it whilst connected to the 512Ke, select an Interleave of 3:1 - Initialize - Init. Re-install System 6 from floppy. System File v4.1 and Finder v5.5 (System 2.0.1) on spec should be capable, but I've no recollection if it will work on a 1GB SCSI volume. If you want to try System 2.0.1, try the Interleave of 3:1 first, if that doesn't work, partition the drive to a 40MB first and then the balance as one partition.

I'm wondering if there is a "Unit Attention" incompatibility between the drive and the 512ke & ROMs. I'm not certain if that drive has a Mode Page that could be modified to disable Unit Attention.

Are you able to boot from floppy on the 512Ke, run HD SC Setup 7.3.5 and "Update Driver" ?

If you run up SCSI Probe, what version/revision ROMs does it say you have? Better yet, have a look at the ROMs on the Dove MacSnap SCSI board, and note the two 342-xxxx-X numbers. The last letter may be the important one. There were 3 versions of the Plus ROMs, and they MUST be fitted in matching pairs.
 
Sorry, I was out all day yesterday. Yes, it didn't work regardless of the repairs. I tried to do speed disk, but because I had the speed disk on the HDD itself, it wouldn't optimize, but it attempted to defragment it. It froze after I clicked defragment, so I doubt that worked. I couldn't find any other repairs that would help my situation.

I tried turning the drive on after the Mac was already on, sadly made no difference.

For the interleaving, I did Command+I to open the box. Should I have typed in 3:1? I typed in 3 because I thought the :1 was already included. When I first opened the box, it recommended 2 instead of 3, oddly enough.

I am able to run HD SC 7.3.5, as well as the update driver. That's how I boot up my 512ke and mount the drive. I have it set to auto open HD SC 7.3.5 and I just press update driver each time since it takes a second and it mounts the drive. It always says driver updated.

I'll have to open it up again and take a look about the ROM numbers.
 
Gamer9430 said:
...For the interleaving, I did Command+I to open the box. Should I have typed in 3:1? I typed in 3 because I thought the :1 was already included. When I first opened the box, it recommended 2 instead of 3, oddly enough....
Click to expand...

Would you believe I can't remember how that dialog box looks? And better yet, I can't find an image of it ANYWHERE ?

I really need to setup a machine instead of trying to rely on my memory. Emulators just don't cut it for some things. :(

EDIT: spoke too soon - I can get the dialog up, but it isn't clear and I can't test it with sheepshaver.

HD SC Setup Interleave Dialog.jpg
 
Last edited:
It may need experimenting with. I've seen different reports/suggestions that the interleave on a MacPlus should be 3:1, but other suggestions that if the drive has a read/write cache, then 1:1 should work fine.

Since the 512Ke never had SCSI but is as slow as a MacPlus, then 3:1 should be the setting.

2:1 is probably where HD SC Setup's logic tree defaults to, since the machine isn't a MacPlus, nor is it an SE, and a 512Ke should NOT have a SCSI port.

I think you'll have to reformat on the 512Ke and experiment with different interleaves. Check before-hand if it shows the interleave in an info window - though I suspect it will only show the SCSI ID. :(
 
Every time I've opened anything that states the model of the Mac, it always says Mac Plus with 2048k/2MB RAM. I've never seen it say 512ke. I guess I'll have to experiment with it. I would think a late Fireball would have R/W cache, but honestly I have no clue :/
 
I do know that read and write caches can usually be turned off in mode pages on drives of the fireball SCSI era. I had a Conner that only worked with it's read cache disabled.

However, it would be highly unlikely that it's been set that way, unless it was changed as a result of being fitted and patched with the PowerComputing "Fireball Fix", even though the article only references Write cache.
 
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