64-bit Discussion [split]

[maxvamp]

On the 64-bitness....

Those who need it, know why, and how to use it... those who don't know how, or why, at least still get to keep some bragging rights. ( Think WindowsXP 64-Bit )

BTW: Panther has some 64-bitness to it... those in the know, know how to use it .

Second...

I would be curious to hear from those with the Tiger preview if DVD+RW disks are finally handled the way the format was intended ( i.e. Floppy/hard disk like ) .

Max.

 

[AidenShaw]

...at least still get to keep some bragging rights. ( Think WindowsXP 64-Bit )

What will the brag be? "Now OS X has 64-bit - 2 years after XP?"

http://www.microsoft.com/resources/...Windows/XP/all/reskit/en-us/prka_fea_ejfy.asp


And Panther doesn't allow anyone to use more than a 32-bit virtual address space, so what "some 64-bitness" are you referring to? Spell it out, don't spread mis-information.

 

[maxvamp]

Be Nice Aiden...good kitty...

What will the brag be? "Now OS X has 64-bit - 2 years after XP?"

The first generally accepted WindowsXP for the consumer/prosumer will be for the AMD64 platform. The Itanic has generally been a flop and was never meant for the consumer. Furthermore, no serious software company has plans to put much money in developing for the platform, yet many are working towards the release of Windows on the AMD platform.

The bragging rights will be that 'I have a 64-bit OS and Processor' . It doesn't matter whether it is Mac or PC, or if the advanced functionality is even ever used. That is the general comment that will be made.

Oddly enough, I am running a pre-released version of both XP and 2k3 ( for testing purposes ) on an AMD. Not faster in most tasks, and a little slower in others.

As far as 64-bitness goes, there are some G5 specific tweaks that are specific for 64-bit operations already out there. Panther has math libraries that take advantage of the new proc, and Tiger is supposed to expand on 64 bit capability. I do not know if Tiger will remove the limited process space that an application can use. I suspect that this too will be 'tweaked'.

Hence : Those in the know.... Think the scientific community.

Hope this helps....

Max.

 

[AidenShaw]

math doesn't make it 64-bit....

Panther has math libraries that take advantage of the new proc...

Your claim is misleading.

Current systems support 64-bit hardware floating point math on 32-bit operating systems, yet nobody claims that the FP register makes it a 64-bit *system*.

Why should the option to do 64-bit hardware integer math be any different?

A "64-bit system" is one that delivers a 64-bit flat virtual address space to applications. Panther does not, Panther is 32-bit.

Windows 64-bit Workstation and 64-bit Server operating systems are shipping today, your wiggle-words about "consumer" are just as silly as Apple's claim that the G5 was the first 64-bit desktop.

 

[Rincewind42]

Your claim is misleading.

Current systems support 64-bit hardware floating point math on 32-bit operating systems, yet nobody claims that the FP register makes it a 64-bit *system*.

Why should the option to do 64-bit hardware integer math be any different?

Your right, Panther is not a 64-bit user-OS. The virtual memory system/kernal is 64-bits by necessity, but that ends up not meaning a whole heck of a lot to users.

A "64-bit system" is one that delivers a 64-bit flat virtual address space to applications. Panther does not, Panther is 32-bit.

Tiger will allow for 64-bit virtual address spaces, but since most frameworks are not 64-bit, it means that generally you have to communicate with a 64-bit background app from 32-bit application space. Presumably this will change in the future, but I doubt that anyone outside of Apple has any clue when that will be (in fact, I doubt that few inside Apple know either).

Windows 64-bit Workstation and 64-bit Server operating systems are shipping today, your wiggle-words about "consumer" are just as silly as Apple's claim that the G5 was the first 64-bit desktop.

Yea, but everyone in the industry has wiggle-words that they use, so in that respect Apple is no different

 

[maxvamp]

Down kitty..... DOWN KITTTYYY >>>> AHHHHHHHH!!!!!

So... Aiden...

Windows 64-bit Workstation and 64-bit Server operating systems are shipping today, your wiggle-words about "consumer" are just as silly as Apple's claim that the G5 was the first 64-bit desktop.

I have an AMD-64, the most popular ( by sheer sales numbers ) 64-bit Windows processor out there. I would like a copy of windows 2k3 for my server. Please tell me, or provide a link to a place where I can buy a copy today. I might also want a few WindowsXP clients for this processor. After all, it also make a very nice workstation machine. Where might I be able to buy a few copies of WindowsXP - 64.

I would like to buy today. I called Microsoft, and they have told me that this creature has yet to be released. What do they know... they are only the authors of the OS....

BTW:

BTW: Panther has some 64-bitness to it... those in the know, know how to use it .

This was my original quote. Panther has Frameworks that reduce the number of cycles needed to calculate 64 bit integer numbers on a G5. This does not use a FP Proc. Hence... Panther has some 64-bitness to it ( never said that Panther was a 64-bit system in my original post).

Aiden, stop trying to **pick** a fight. Itanic is dead, AMDx86-64 is the future for most Intel installations...

Mac OSX has some ( Although not a lot ) 64-bit functionality , and will gain more in the future. In my mind this does not allow OSX to be classified as a pure 32-bit OS. People will tend to want to claim they have a 64-bit OS, and those who need a specific 64-bit feature that OSX does, or will provide will buy the OS. If they need a 64 bit attribute that the OS does not have, they will buy a Sun, HP, or even Intel. Hence... Those in the know......

Max.

P.S. I await the link to run Win-64 on my AMD servers...

Max.

 

[maxvamp]

One last thing....

My original post here was not intended to get into a p**sing contest over 64-bits. Aiden and I have been down that path before....

What I want to know is if the media handling of DVD '+' have been improved in Tiger...

We can debate this topic if you like... I know the formats very well, just not the new OS...

Max.

 

[AidenShaw]

Your right, Panther is not a 64-bit user-OS. The virtual memory system/kernal is 64-bits by necessity, but that ends up not meaning a whole heck of a lot to users.

The Pathner virtual memory system is 32-bits as seen by the applications.

It is not a "necessity" to use 64-bits to support more than 4 GiB of RAM. The kernel memory management system can keep track of pages by the page number, and a 32-bit page number for 4 KiB pages can manage up to 16 TiB of RAM.

Windows and Linux on 32-bit Xeons support up to 64 GiB of RAM on a 32-bit processor with a 32-bit operating system. (Like the G4, the Pentium/Xeon support 36-bit physical addressing on the 32-bit chip.)
________________


If anyone thinks that Itanium (no need to use childish insulting names) is dead, they should look at the top systems in both the Top500 Supercomputer list and in business applications like TPC.

When the latest 64-bit wart on the x86 instruction set runs out of steam, Intel has a clean architecture ready to move into the desktop space....

 

[reckless_0001]

Why don't y'all make a 64bit Processing thread and talk about it there or start talking about various Tiger features/improvements.

 

[johnnyjibbs]

Arrrggghh....! Why does every one of these threads always end up being about whether it is a true 64 bit OS or not?

"yes it is"
"actually, no it's not"
"Panther isn't but Tiger is"
"Actually neither can address 64 bit instructions but Windows XP 64 bit can"

Arrrggghhh...!!

[/rant]

Sorry.. had to be done.

 

[AidenShaw]

Because...

Arrrggghh....! Why does every one of these threads always end up being about whether it is a true 64 bit OS or not?

Because the "64-bit myth" is even bigger than the "MHz myth" ???

 

[Punani]

Well then, let's discuss Mac OS X 10.12 with a G11 and 128-bit extensions!

 

[reckless_0001]

Well then, let's discuss Mac OS X 10.12 with a G11 and 128-bit extensions!

Sounds good to me

 

[Rincewind42]

The Panther virtual memory system is 32-bits as seen by the applications.

It is not a "necessity" to use 64-bits to support more than 4 GiB of RAM. The kernel memory management system can keep track of pages by the page number, and a 32-bit page number for 4 KiB pages can manage up to 16 TiB of RAM.

Windows and Linux on 32-bit Xeons support up to 64 GiB of RAM on a 32-bit processor with a 32-bit operating system. (Like the G4, the Pentium/Xeon support 36-bit physical addressing on the 32-bit chip.)

This isn't idle speculation on my part. This is information from engineers -- the kernel uses a 64-bit address space for memory. It's more than just the VM system and main memory, it's also IO devices such as PCI and FW. Many of these devices are not page addressable (at least not the same as the memory system), so you have to keep track of memory at a space more fine grained than pages.

 

[reckless_0001]

Is there another forum thread that is "hot" on the topic of Tiger or is this site just losing interest?

 

[abhishekit]

Your claim is misleading.

Current systems support 64-bit hardware floating point math on 32-bit operating systems, yet nobody claims that the FP register makes it a 64-bit *system*.

Why should the option to do 64-bit hardware integer math be any different?

They are different because only integer registers can store pointers(for memory addressing) , floating point registers can't.

 

[maya]

64-bit argument RIP.

64-bit Development


The 64-bit support in Tiger enables the 64-bit addressing for the next generation of data-intensive applications, such as those working with gene sequencing, advanced medical imaging, and geospatial applications. To give an example of the kinds of data that can be represented with 64 bits, imagine that you are working with a dataset in which the road area of the Golden Gate bridge can be represented in 32 bits. Sixty-four bits of address space gives you the capacity to model the entire surface area of the earth at the same resolution. In addition, LibSystem and many*of Apple's optimized math libraries will*support 64-bit addressing in Tiger, making it easy for developers to harness the full computational power of the PowerPC G5 as well as very large amounts of memory. As you probably know, at the heart of the Power Mac G5 and the new iMac G5 is the PowerPC G5 processor, a fully capable 64-bit processor. It sports 64-bit registers, can perform 64-bit arithmetic operations, and can give the operating system access to greater than 4GB of main memory. In fact, it gives you access to 16 exabytes of virtual memory, and as much physical memory as you can put in your Mac.


Unlike some other CPU architectures, there is no performance penalty for running 32-bit applications on the G5. This is because the PowerPC architecture has always been defined as a 64-bit architecture with a 32-bit subset, allowing a seamless migration between 32-bit and 64-bit hardware. Even better, 32-bit applications can take advantage of many 64-bit features, such as 64-bit math and registers. This has allowed Apple to make a smooth transition between architectures. For example, there is only one version of the kernel for all Apple hardware.


Mac*OS*X Tiger's 64-bit support opens the door to the next level of applications—the ones that couldn't be built until now.

 

[maxvamp]

Why don't y'all make a 64bit Processing thread and talk about it there or start talking about various Tiger features/improvements

Excellent idea...

I think the reason this 64 bit thing keeps getting pulled in is due to the fact that Tiger will reportedly be 64 bit when running on a 970. Things get mixed up and confused, and then very tense over this topic. The reality is that those who need the extra power will by a 970 with Tiger. Those who just want this setup, won't care why or if they need it, they will buy it anyhow. Apple won't care either way so long as they get paid.

It is all kind of buying a corvette just to drive to work everyday. A Toyota would probably be a better fit for this use, but the purchaser won't care ( until they hit the gas pump ).

Max.

 

[~Shard~]

64-bit Development

<snip>

Mac*OS*X Tiger's 64-bit support opens the door to the next level of
applications—the ones that couldn't be built until now.

It would have been easier just to link to the source instead of cutting and pasting the entire document. Plus, I believe most people here have already read the actual documentation on Apple's website, nothing really new there. And on top of that, since it's Apple's site, you know they've probably applied that "Marketing slant" to things as well to a slight degree at least - it's not like the info is taken straight from an Engineering manual or something.

 

[AidenShaw]

They are different because only integer registers can store pointers(for memory addressing) , floating point registers can't.

Yes, but Panther's able to do integer arithmetic using 64-bits, but it isn't using 64-bits for addresses.

My point is that virtually everyone will call a system with 32-bit addressing a 32-bit system, even if it does 64-bit floating point math. Adding 64-bit integer math while still using 32-bit addressing doesn't change anything - it's still a 32-bit system.

While Panther may be using limited 64-bit in the kernel, it isn't strictly necessary to do so. The earlier post said "by necessity", which isn't true.

Windows and Linux on x86 support 64 GiB of RAM and 64-bit PCI address space (obvious, if you're going to do I/O to more than 4 GiB of RAM) using only 32-bit addressing. It is not a necessity to have 64-bit addressing - you can set up the mapping between memory and addressing using 32-bit operations.

 

[AidenShaw]

Things get mixed up and confused, and then very tense over this topic. The reality is that those who need the extra power will by a 970 with Tiger. Those who just want this setup, won't care why or if they need it, they will buy it anyhow. Apple won't care either way so long as they get paid.

And, like commuting with the Corvette, 64-bit won't be doing anything for you if you have 4 GiB or less of RAM. That's a factor in the "need a 64-bit laptop" debates - without the big RAM *and* an application that needs more than 4 GiB of RAM, you really don't need 64-bit.

 

[maya]

It would have been easier just to link to the source instead of cutting and pasting the entire document. Plus, I believe most people here have already read the actual documentation on Apple's website, nothing really new there. And on top of that, since it's Apple's site, you know they've probably applied that "Marketing slant" to things as well to a slight degree at least - it's not like the info is taken straight from an Engineering manual or something.

That is true Shard, I could have just placed a link. However when with the information ready people have been saying well I didn't know it was there or is it really a.

So its better then to open another tab or window in Safari.

"marketing slant" maybe, maybe not. Apple has a reputation and when Steve said listen no 3.0GHz this summer I am sure that was hard on his reputation however people passed it off since everyone has the same problem.

The "worlds fastest computer" well that all depends it never stated forever, it could have been for an second, minute, hour, day a week, maybe even a month. The fastest computer was to draw attention and nothing more. Did Apple have to remove it yes.

I do no think Apple and Steve .J are going to make "promises" and then say oh well that was for marketing can you imagine what the developers will think we cannot rely on what Apple says anymore. And considering that there are more developers for the x86 than for Apple PPC desktop I do not think Apple wants to get comfortable in HOT WATER.

Redmond, start your photocopiers, introducing LongHorn, etc....that is marketing.

Anyhow we shall all see when this Cat is out of the bag in 2005, then there will be another argument on MR. Well I told you so blah blah blah. Whatever people if you want to upgrade to Tiger do so otherwise pipe down.

Apple is in the business to compete, do you honestly if they place false information that the media will allow them grace. Apple cannot afford the bad reputation for switcher.

At this point its like debating if Kerry or Bush will do a better job in office.

Get a life, this 64-bit issue is put to rest until we obtain more detailed information about it.

 

[maya]

Arrrggghh....! Why does every one of these threads always end up being about whether it is a true 64 bit OS or not?

"yes it is"
"actually, no it's not"
"Panther isn't but Tiger is"
"Actually neither can address 64 bit instructions but Windows XP 64 bit can"

Arrrggghhh...!!

[/rant]

Sorry.. had to be done.

64-bit OS is a very important development its as important to the whole Mac OS experience as CoreImage, CoreData, WebCore.

This is not about aesthetics changes that can and might change when Tiger is released.

This is foundation set for the future development of Mac OS X.

 

[rendezvouscp]

I wonder how many updates Apple is going to provide to the developers. I really hope they have a lot of momentum behind Tiger. It's looking like a great OS. I'm just concerned that it'll become too bloated with things. Right now, there are way too many GUIs running around, and Apple isn't even following their OS GUI Guidelines sometimes. Please keep the simplicity Apple!
-Chase

 

[rendezvouscp]

Other than Apple, I wonder if Maya will go 64-bit? Wouldn't it benefit from it?
-Chase