Adobe can't choose paper source by PDF size

[mreg376]

From what have seen this question has been popping up for years, and there's no answer. Maybe I can find one here.

I'm running OS X 10.11.6 (although as far as I can tell this problems exists in all recent versions of hardware and software) on an iMac 7,1,, and the most recent Mac version of Adobe Reader includes the option to "choose paper source by PDF size." That option had been missing in the Mac version for years, all the while being in the Windows version and working well, as long as you had your printer properly set up for dual-tray dual-paper size printing. However there was no way to get that printer to do automatic dual-tray dual-size printing on a Mac. That option existed nowhere. Then finally the option was added in one of the recent updates to Adobe for the Mac. The problem is that whether or not you check that option, it is ignored and you STILL cannot dual-print automatically. Interestingly, when I run Windows 10 in Parallels on the same iMac, and use the Windows version of Adobe the checkbox DOES work and I can do dual-printing on that same printer attached to the iMac. So the question is, why? Why if the option to 'chose paper source by PDF size' is now included in Adobe Reader for the Mac does it not work? Can it be made to work? (To be clear, I'm NOT talking about scaling, where you get a 8x14 page to squeeze onto an 8x11 page. I'm talking about having the printer switch from Tray 1 [holding 8x11] to Tray 2 [holding 11x14] automatically to feed the correct page size.) Thanks for any help.

P.S. The printer must be properly configured, because as I said above the dual-printing works through Windows, and even on the Mac I can control which paper tray to use from the printer driver manually. But there is no option for automatic source tray selection in the OS X printer driver and, as I said above, the Mac Adobe command to do so is ignored.

 

[hobowankenobi]

Howdy -

Don't know, not a feature I am familiar with. But....

Most Win boxes print using PCL, and Macs primarily use Postscript. Odds are it is a feature set of the printing protocol, not the OS or hardware.

Also, I can say with certainty that many modern printers can and will auto-select the correct size based on the document size. At work, I see this working seamlessly on Xerox, Ricoh, and Dell lasers. 2 and 4 tray printers, and the user simply pushes print and the correct size paper (that matches the document page setup size) comes out. 60+ Macs, about 6 printers.

I would add it a s printer feature and configuration, nothing to due with the Macs. It works with every doc I have seen attempted. If you look at the Paper Feed menu, most drivers (varies by printer) have an Automatic setting.

The Ricoh printers even have an option to let the printer select next closest size if there is no match, though we have that turned off, so the printer will pause and wait for user input.

Example: the document is legal, but trays are setup with letter and tabloid, the printer would pause and ask which tray, letter or tabloid. The user selects on the printer, nothing to do with the computer, platform, software, or configuration.

If your printer(s) don't support this, a work around would be:

Within the Mac print dialog window, create and save a preset for each paper size/tray selection. Not automatic, but much faster than manually digging into the Paper Feed menu each time to select.

 

[mreg376]

Howdy -

Don't know, not a feature I am familiar with. But....

Most Win boxes print using PCL, and Macs primarily use Postscript. Odds are it is a feature set of the printing protocol, not the OS or hardware.

Also, I can say with certainty that many modern printers can and will auto-select the correct size based on the document size. At work, I see this working seamlessly on Xerox, Ricoh, and Dell lasers. 2 and 4 tray printers, and the user simply pushes print and the correct size paper (that matches the document page setup size) comes out. 60+ Macs, about 6 printers.

I would add it a s printer feature and configuration, nothing to due with the Macs. It works with every doc I have seen attempted. If you look at the Paper Feed menu, most drivers (varies by printer) have an Automatic setting.

The Ricoh printers even have an option to let the printer select next closest size if there is no match, though we have that turned off, so the printer will pause and wait for user input.

Example: the document is legal, but trays are setup with letter and tabloid, the printer would pause and ask which tray, letter or tabloid. The user selects on the printer, nothing to do with the computer, platform, software, or configuration.

If your printer(s) don't support this, a work around would be:

Within the Mac print dialog window, create and save a preset for each paper size/tray selection. Not automatic, but much faster than manually digging into the Paper Feed menu each time to select.

As I mentioned, my printer supports it, since it works automatically from Adobe in Windows running in Parallels on the same machine. But there is no "automatic" paper selection in any Mac printer driver. And your workaround doesn't work, since the Mac will not stop printing to allow you to change settings or paper trays. Since the driver forces you to select one page size at the outset it just keeps printing on that size paper no matter what the correct size is. But thanks anyway.

 

[hobowankenobi]

Perhaps I misunderstood.....

This is the Auto I was referring to. This is in most print drivers, and works well on most printers.

I don't understand the bit about stopping printing....are you suggesting you want the printer to change paper size in the middle of the print job? Is that a common issue? I could see that as problematic on some printers, but again, the higher end machines I support select the paper size based on the page layout, so I can't agree that it is not possible.

And yes, presets work pretty well in general. In fact, on my printer above, the low res black only preset I saved to make low cost monochromatic prints. Or did I misunderstand this too?

Yes, Windows running on your Mac (natively or virtually) is still Windows, and will still print via PCL by default on most printers. Mac and Win printing subsystems are very different.....

As for Adobe specifically, mixed sized paper in one document is shown here. I have not tested this, as I don't ever see mixed paper size documents in my environment.

 

[mreg376]

Perhaps I misunderstood.....

This is the Auto I was referring to. This is in most print drivers, and works well on most printers.

I don't understand the bit about stopping printing....are you suggesting you want the printer to change paper size in the middle of the print job? Is that a common issue? I could see that as problematic on some printers, but again, the higher end machines I support select the paper size based on the page layout, so I can't agree that it is not possible.

And yes, presets work pretty well in general. In fact, on my printer above, the low res black only preset I saved to make low cost monochromatic prints. Or did I misunderstand this too?

Yes, Windows running on your Mac (natively or virtually) is still Windows, and will still print via PCL by default on most printers. Mac and Win printing subsystems are very different.....

As for Adobe specifically, mixed sized paper in one document is shown here. I have not tested this, as I don't ever see mixed paper size documents in my environment.

Yes, that's exactly it -- changing the page size DURING the print job. I print real estate closing documents, which mixes in letter and legal size pages. Again, this works flawlessly on the same printer using Adobe in Windows. The "Auto Select" doesn't work on the Mac because as you can see in your example, the paper size still says Letter. There is no selection for "Auto" in paper size. It just seems a little odd that in 2017 this works in Windows but not on a Mac, for the same printer.

 

[hobowankenobi]

I see.

Again, likely a platform feature. If so, not aware of a work-around. To change this the entire CUPS printing subsystem may need a substantial change. If so....don't hold your breath.

Now I am curious, I want to try a doc with two different size pages.

 

[mreg376]

Good luck! I'll be waiting to hear. And again, the oddest thing is that Adobe added the option to one of its recent Mac updates. I just can't figure out why.

 

[campyguy]

Chiming in here late, following to see if Adobe's got their head out of their tail ends on this matter. I don't see that they have, contacted them as to whether they've got this addressed on the macOS platform - and, they haven't due to the printing subsystem. Adobe indicated this issue is related to the structure of the UNIX/macOS OSes. I don't see anything that's changed in the past 7-10 years on this matter, bummed to offer this. Nothing's changed, UNIX or macOS - all of the files in my office that have multiple layouts go through my Windows file server and it's looking as though that won't change anytime soon. The link in Post #4 offers nothing new over Adobe's features going back years. FWIW, Illy/PS/Distiller/Acrobat DC are all installed on my Macs…

 

[hobowankenobi]

Chiming in here late, following to see if Adobe's got their head out of their tail ends on this matter. I don't see that they have, contacted them as to whether they've got this addressed on the macOS platform - and, they haven't due to the printing subsystem. Adobe indicated this issue is related to the structure of the UNIX/macOS OSes. I don't see anything that's changed in the past 7-10 years on this matter, bummed to offer this. Nothing's changed, UNIX or macOS - all of the files in my office that have multiple layouts go through my Windows file server and it's looking as though that won't change anytime soon. The link in Post #4 offers nothing new over Adobe's features going back years. FWIW, Illy/PS/Distiller/Acrobat DC are all installed on my Macs…

Thanks for jumping in. So, running through a Win print server allows this feature? If so, a good work around for an office. Any low cost box could likely be used to as a print server.

Yep, as I suspected, it sounds like the feature missing from CUPS which Mac, Linux, and most UNIX based OSes use for printing.

 

[mreg376]

Chiming in here late, following to see if Adobe's got their head out of their tail ends on this matter. I don't see that they have, contacted them as to whether they've got this addressed on the macOS platform - and, they haven't due to the printing subsystem. Adobe indicated this issue is related to the structure of the UNIX/macOS OSes. I don't see anything that's changed in the past 7-10 years on this matter, bummed to offer this. Nothing's changed, UNIX or macOS - all of the files in my office that have multiple layouts go through my Windows file server and it's looking as though that won't change anytime soon. The link in Post #4 offers nothing new over Adobe's features going back years. FWIW, Illy/PS/Distiller/Acrobat DC are all installed on my Macs…

Thanks for the info. That sort-of explains the situation, unfortunately. But my question, from a technical standpoint, is since the automatic printing works in Adobe for Windows, in Windows, in Parallels running on a Mac, that makes no use of the OS X printing subsystem?

 

[campyguy]

Thanks for jumping in. So, running through a Win print server allows this feature? If so, a good work around for an office. Any low cost box could likely be used to as a print server.

Yep, as I suspected, it sounds like the feature missing from CUPS which Mac, Linux, and most UNIX based OSes use for printing.

No worries, I was really hoping someone knew more about an update - um, lurking… - but I finally got on the horn and asked Adobe to let me know. The unofficial comment was along the lines of the really old backbones of OS X and CUPS keep devs from implementing newer features and the upcoming switch to APFS should unlock a bunch of new capabilities. That, and for some reason we didn't get into, this issue also is due to printer manufacturers not writing drivers that tell a Mac that the duplexing/routing/etc. features are actually resident in the subject printer - but the "hooks" are present in the Windows drivers; this latter bit makes sense when seeing other Mac applications and 'Nix not talking to printers like Windows apps do.

As it is, a cheap Win print server is exactly what I use in my 3 offices and at home, an inexpensive HP laptop does the trick, and I also use Parallels 12 in a pinch on my rMBP. FWIW, also consider rooting around in Apple's printer drivers downloads section - a few door stop printers I have (old Canon and Samsung color printers) that those manufacturers no longer support are supported by the newer drivers on Apple's portal, and the Canon actually has additional features that didn't exist in the stock drivers supplied on Canon's drivers web portal (which I can't stand!), and they're still chugging away without issue. I'm really looking forward to the new macOS structure. It's just been easier to route docs through the Win box for now…
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Thanks for the info. That sort-of explains the situation, unfortunately. But my question, from a technical standpoint, is since the automatic printing works in Adobe for Windows, in Windows, in Parallels running on a Mac, that makes no use of the OS X printing subsystem?

See my previous reply, Adobe's rep didn't come out and say it, but did take some of the blame and put some of it on the printer driver devs not tying into the OS features. We - Mac users - have been whining about this for, what, 10+ years? I chose to go with the $300 Win printer box instead of the $300 for an hour of therapy…

Agreed, there's really no reason that this one option shouldn't exist IMHO, Canon used to use a buggy-as-a-mosquito-bog utility named "IJ Printer Utility" that was launched when "Paper Allocation" was selected in the print dialog box, and I believe the Utility was written in no-longer-supported Java. The Utility crashed my network several times before I just went to the Win printer box setup as my workaround - we've got several Win PCs in my offices so I'm supporting Windows anyways.

If I find out more, I'll pass it on here but don't hold your breath! Cheers!

 

[hobowankenobi]

....Don't get me started on Canon. Great hardware as far as I can tell, but drivers for Macs, not so much.

The campus where I work bought all Canon multi-funtion machines, and we don't use ours for anything other that the copier and scanning functions, cuz the Mac drivers are so....fun. Pretty sure the procurement guys tested from Win boxes.

Problem is....we are more than 60% Macs.

No doubt CUPS is pretty old, and changes little. After 15+ years, they are at version 2.2.2!

Interesting to hear that things may change with a refreshed file system.
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Thanks for the info. That sort-of explains the situation, unfortunately. But my question, from a technical standpoint, is since the automatic printing works in Adobe for Windows, in Windows, in Parallels running on a Mac, that makes no use of the OS X printing subsystem?

That is correct. Win (running inside parallels) sends the network print job straight to the printer, bypassing CUPS completely.
[doublepost=1485904997][/doublepost]Out of curiosity, I tried this from a couple bigger, full featured multi-drawered printers: letter and tabloid.

First it took me a while to figure out how to make a document with different size pages. PITA in MS Word.

Next, when I got that done, sure enough, when I print, everything comes out from tray 1 on letter paper, which is the primary size (selected at creation) and the size of the first 2 pages. The 3rd page (which was added as tabloid size) has the text cropped as though it runs off the side of letter paper. So the page is laid out correctly, and text is off center for letter, but appears correct for tabloid.

Interesting note: If I save the .docx file as a .pdf, the same thing happens: all three pages appear as letter (the 3rd page's different size info seems to be stripped out), and the text is off set as it runs off the side of the page where the paper would be if it were in fact tabloid....so the formatting is there, even though the page/area itself is not.

Keep in mind that a .pdf is essentially a captured and viewable print job....and it appears CUPS or some other part of the printing system cannot handle different size pages in the same job, so the .pdf suffers the same fate as the printed job: the special page size info seems to be disregarded. Same result in Preview and Acrobat CC.

 

[MacGizmo]

This has been an issue since Apple stopped making printers about the time when Steve Jobs came back to the company.

Manufacturers simply don't put the time/expense into developing native Mac drivers. They throw together a Windows driver because it's easy, then simply port it over to the Mac with no regard to whether or not certain things work.

I've been living with this problem since the late 80s, and it still pisses me off. Every. Day.

 

[osxrumours]

Might want to edit your title to 'Adobe Reader' to get more discussion. Nearly all of Adobe's products have page size intrinsically rooted in how they work, so I'd no idea what software you were talking about until opening the message. Others might not get as far as opening it.

 

[hobowankenobi]

This has been an issue since Apple stopped making printers about the time when Steve Jobs came back to the company.

Manufacturers simply don't put the time/expense into developing native Mac drivers. They throw together a Windows driver because it's easy, then simply port it over to the Mac with no regard to whether or not certain things work.

I've been living with this problem since the late 80s, and it still pisses me off. Every. Day.

Understand the frustration, but as it appears to be a CUPS issue, it goes well beyond Macs. Most Linux and Unix flavors too.

As a side note....and not to excuse the limitation:

Can anybody explain to me why this is the norm for legal docs like mortgage loan docs? If one must use legal for some of the pages, why not use it for all the the pages? The text would break in different places, but it's not like one is saving paper. You end up with more pages, and less on each...and taking out margins per page, you could actually use less paper. And filing is weird, with different length pages. Why not use all letter, or all legal for simplicity?

Never seen it anywhere else that I can recall except from real estate docs. As a signer, I have always been puzzled by it.