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*sigh* They did not chose an architecture at all. They decided to develop an architecture - and of course the plan was to develop the best architecture in the world.
They did, instead of choosing to use the vastly superior ARM architecture.
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Asked and answered by myself and multiple other people in this thread.

It doesn’t matter what happened in the past anyways, that cannot be changed. Your fixating on irrelevancies. Chalk it up to different management back then. Your questions are pointless and tedious, accept or don’t, it doesn’t change anything. Unless you have a time machine we don’t know about.
I chalk it up to the fact they didn't feel ARM was superior. The whole point of my postings are to demonstrate that merely being RISC doesn't make a processor superior. If that were the case PPC Apple would have never moved to x86.
 
What is your point?
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So it's your opinion they intentionally chose an inferior architecture?
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IOW they didn't believe in the superiority of ARM.
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Great write up but all irrelevant if RISC were the superior processor "architecture" we're led to believe by the Apple desktop ARM cheerleaders. Justify it any way you want x86 was competitive and, in some instances, faster than RISC. Therefore continued development in alternative processors wasn't warranted as it was in the early days of computers.

Leaving the future of CPU architectures up to Intel is like having the Katzenjammer Kids manage a soda fountain - it all ends up being the same overpriced plain vanilla dreck at twice the price and your choice of poop or no poop. No thanks. You enjoy it though.

Your linear monolithic thinking is an evolutionary dead end OR you work for Intel. Either way InstaIgnore.
 
Oh.

Great.

THIS again.

Bye, Bootcamp (using one computer as two platforms - also bye bye Windows-based gaming on Macs)...

Bye, WINE (Windows API on non-Windows OSes, though this was already killed by Catalina’s ditching of 32-bit)...

Bye, any and all hardware older than one year which relies on custom drivers (not class-compliance), which wont be ported to Apple Silicon machines by the company that originally sold it (the audio production market is going to suffer a LOT here, just as it did with Catalina)...

Bye, literally hundreds of pieces of commercial & freeware software & plugins that also wont be maintained or ported because the companies no longer exist, don’t care to maintain their products beyond one year, or can’t afford yet more Apple hardware to do ports... Some of those companies might even simply abandon Mac support entirely.

Et cetera.

This is going to be a slaughter, for a not-insignificant portion of the Mac user world... but not significant enough for Apple and most Apple customers to care. The commentary here is typical: anyone voicing legit concerns is barked down by cultish Apple fans. Most of you could be served by pretty much any computer anyway, so I’m not sure why you get so upset when Apple users like myself take issue with Apple over stuff like this. It’s like people like me aren’t allowed to prefer Mac OS, too, just because I have non-mainstream needs for my computing. If your needs are so basic that you cannot empathize with those of us with specialist needs, why do you attach to Macs in the first place?

Maybe watch the state of the union video and then come back and comment. Drivers and plugins were specifically addressed in that video along with everybody else’s concerns such as “this is the end of the world, Apple are locking down the App Store” blah blah.
 
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Leaving the future of CPU architectures up to Intel is like having the Katzenjammer Kids manage a soda fountain - it all ends up being the same overpriced plain vanilla dreck at twice the price and your choice of poop or no poop. No thanks. You enjoy it though.

Your linear monolithic thinking is an evolutionary dead end OR you work for Intel. Either way InstaIgnore.
LOL! The only monolithic thinking is that of RISC automatically being better than CISC. I've heard all of these arguments before when it came to PPC. There is absolutely nothing new from those advocating Apple ARM desktop CPUs. It's like taking a step back in time hearing these arguments all over again. This is not to say that maybe this time it will be different. But your characterization of Intel as Katzenjammer Kids managing a soda fountain is laughable.

My point, and this is what all of my posts boil down to, is you might want to keep things tempered.
 
What is your point?

My point is that one of the reasons x86 took off is because it was popular for desktops at the home or in the office... That's why it won back in the day.

The question now - will that get overturned? Apple seems to be going the ARM direction. Cloud providers seem to like the energy savings. -- Should prove interesting.
 
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Then why switch now? ARM is not natively compatible with today's software.

I will give you some history, to make this more clear. When Apple and (for similar reasons NeXT Computer), adopted the 68000 (family), it was a cleaner architecture than Intel’s competitor (the 8086/80286). The previous generation (the 6800) had a similar market share to Intel’s previous generation (the 8080), so the choice was reasonable. Many workstation companies adopted that family, but IBM and its clone makers having chosen Intel, gave them a commanding lead in volume.

When Apple wanted to switch to a faster architecture, it made sense for them to work with partners (the AIM consortium) to build the PowerPC. Unfortunately, Motorola (and later Freescale) had much more success with the embedded systems market and Apple was not big enough to support development of a super fast chip on its own. IBM did use the PowerPC in its own systems, but only in mainframes, so performance per watt was not important for them, again a problem for Apple.

Various other vendors did get Microsoft to port Windows to their architecture (MIPS, PowerPC, and DEC Alpha, among others), but while they were all faster than Intel, none ever had enough market share to get people to port to them, many had endian-issues (making porting harder), and the most complex applications have lots of platform specific code, ensuring they would never run on anything other than Intel hardware.

At that point it made sense for Apple to move to Intel.

Steve Jobs decided that Apple should never be in that position again (not controlling its own destiny) and began building a world class silicon team. Apple’s volume in the iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch, Apple TV, HomePod, etc. is large enough support this team.

The reason this makes sense for Apple and does not make sense for anyone else, is that Apple controls all parts of its own platform, and can make both make it easy for people to port, while making it impossible for them not to port if they want to remain on the platform (“burn the boats”). For anyone on the platform, who is on Apple’s tool chain, porting is trivial. Where there may be a small set of developers who leave, that really means that they had left before and did not bother telling anyone (in other words, they were not doing any work to support the product, just collecting checks).

No one else has had the same incentive structure to do this for desktop/laptop systems. Nor has anyone else had control over all parts of their stack.

An ARM chip marker, would have to build a chip, get a system maker to build a system around it, get them to write drivers and work with Microsoft to ensure there is a port. Unless they achieve great volume, no one will port to their architecture, and if no one ports to their platform, they invested a lot of money for no reason. Why target that market which is shrinking in importance vs. the mobile or embedded markets?

As for ”native compatibility” your statement is clearly wrong. Apple’s biggest markets all use ARM, so the number of systems that use ARM vs. the number that run iOS/iPadOS/tvOS/watchOS.

At this point, people can rant, leave the platform or wait and see. Unless one has an urgent reason, waiting and l cannot see any good reason for anyone who does not need to buy a machine today to buy one now or switch, when they can wait to the fall and see what happens.
 
SPARC, like ARM, is a specification and can be licensed. SPARC is RISC. MIPS was RISC. PPC was RISC. Alpha was RISC. If RISC is so superior why is it that most of them are gone in favor of x64?

Volume production paying for the many Billions and Billions of $$$ in R&D needed to keep up with Moore’s law. Only Intel (in PCs and servers) and ARM customers (in mobile and embedded) had the huge unit volumes and revenues needed to continuously fund new R&D.

For awhile, MIPS (in the N64) and PPC had a bit of consumer volume (in games), but that wasn’t quite enough. PPC is still there at the very top end for IBM Power, because those servers still sell for millions. HP, DEC, Sun, SGI, etc. just couldn’t sell enough of their boxes at a high enough price to pay and keep many hundreds of top engineers and do lots and lots of multi-million $$$ sub-micron tape-outs needed to keep up.

A ton of idiot mismanagement also helped “innovators dilemma” many of the RISC companies into death spirals as well.
 
Yeah, but will they continue to support Mac? My understanding (given I'm not a software dev) has been that it has been fairly easy to make Mac ports on x86 w/ OpenGL/CL, as most of these companies are Windows-centric. Will that still be the case once Apple moves to ARM/Metal?

Many, if not most, of these companies have already moved to Metal and if they are currently shipping they are already 64-bit. That means that there is minimal effort for them to port.

I think we'd mainly see it on the low end, where Apple might use the savings to introduce low-end machines priced more like AppleTV/iPhone, and at the high end where Apple pays huge premiums to Intel (ie. Xeons). The question is whether they'll actually take advantage of that vs just having a higher profit margin.

You seem to have missed my point. I was talking about an AppleTV gaming console that was competitive with PS5/XBone NG (or whatever it is called). They both use someone else’s silicon and have to pay their profit margin on it. Apple’s use of its own silicon would mean they would not need to make much (if any) profit on such a device and could sell it for a low price ($150) especially if they make 30% on the games sold (just like Sony does).
 
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Tell me this isn’t Intel taking a major whack at Apple! LMAO

So, what happens to software that depends on the AVX instruction sets (AVX, AVX2, AVX256, AVX512)? I am curious to see what Apple's team can come up with.
 
So, what happens to software that depends on the AVX instruction sets (AVX, AVX2, AVX256, AVX512)? I am curious to see what Apple's team can come up with.
Apple says the following:

Update Processor-Specific Vector Instructions
If your code includes instructions for the SSE, AVX, AVX2, or AVX512 units of Intel processors, update that code to support Apple silicon. The best alternative to processor-specific vector code is to use the Accelerate framework, which provides a vast library of vector operations optimized for all Mac computers. Accelerate leverages all available hardware of the current system to perform:
Vector and matrix computations
Image manipulation
Digital signal processing
Linear algebra computations
Compression
Neural network operations
For more information about the Accelerate framework, see Accelerate.
 
So, what happens to software that depends on the AVX instruction sets (AVX, AVX2, AVX256, AVX512)? I am curious to see what Apple's team can come up with.


vector instructions are part of the architectural spec already.
 
Many, if not most, of these companies have already moved to Metal and if they are currently shipping they are already 64-bit. That means that there is minimal effort for them to port.

You seem to have missed my point. I was talking about an AppleTV gaming console that was competitive with PS5/XBone NG (or whatever it is called). They both use someone else’s silicon and have to pay their profit margin on it. Apple’s use of its own silicon would mean they would not need to make much (if any) profit on such a device and could sell it for a low price ($150) especially if they make 30% on the games sold (just like Sony does).

AppleTV competitive with a PS5 or XboxX? 😂

The next generation of consoles will be 8 cores/16 threads Zen 2 based CPUs and RDNA 2 based GPUs. Apple isn't competing in that space.
 

vector instructions are part of the architectural spec already.

And most people don’t write directly to the vector instructions - they use packages or sdks that use them (and use whatever is available depending on whether it’s an ARM, AMD, or Intel chip, or even discrete GPUs depending on the nature of the function being performed.
 
My point is that one of the reasons x86 took off is because it was popular for desktops at the home or in the office... That's why it won back in the day.
It definitely had momentum. But that doesn't answer why Apple switch to it instead of ARM.

The question now - will that get overturned? Apple seems to be going the ARM direction. Cloud providers seem to like the energy savings. -- Should prove interesting.
I'll tell you how it's going to go:

Apple will announce their new ARM based Macintosh systems and provide benchmarks showing them in a favorable light. Then the ARM versus x64 arguments will begin with each side showing their architecture as better. Benchmarks will be shown, architectural benefits will be presented, ad hominems will be thrown, and nothing will be resolved. Just like in 1995!
 
The question isn't about now, it's about then. Why, back when Apple made the transition to PPC, did they not go with the superior ARM design and save Mac users the headache of two architecture transitions?

Oh, I wasn't talking about 68xxx to PPC, I was talking about Apple picking Intel instead of staying with a RISC solution. That was a business decision and about compatibility, not necessarily picking the superior technology.

Seems others have addressed that, though. As I said previously, superior tech often doesn't win out in business.

... MIPS, PowerPC and Alpha all ran Windows NT, but Intel basically paid MS to stop developing those versions to choke the market despite the fact that each ran circles around Intel.

... tried to embrace Windows NT and half assed it while trying to sell $100K visualization systems using strippers and booze. ... So that’s why through a weird confluence of events by hook or by crook, that Intel finds itself in the cat bird seat, metaphorically speaking. Motorola died because of an incompetent CEO and IBM retreated from PCs to become a services and solutions company. PowerPC became abandonware along with OS/2 while POWER flourished selling fat margin AS/400s, DB2 and those sweet juicy service contracts. ...

Yeah, again business and human nature vs tech superiority and doing the right thing, etc. I was more involved in networking, so saw similar thing happen in Novell vs Microsoft.

... If that were the case PPC Apple would have never moved to x86.

The partnership failed to deliver. I'm not sure what that has to do with technical superiority.
And, there were other reasons for picking x86.

Do you not understand that superior tech often doesn't win in the real world?

My gosh, I spent most of my early years in tech trying to convince companies of the superiority of going with Apple and trying to provide a counter-argument to uninformed IT departments making silly arguments trying to get rid of Apple.

Many, if not most, of these companies have already moved to Metal and if they are currently shipping they are already 64-bit. That means that there is minimal effort for them to port.

I think I'm talking more about products with weaker ties to the Apple ecosystem (like, say AutoCAD... kind of on and off supporting it) or smaller developers who might have to re-write to the point of making hard decisions (like CAD/3D tools, but that's just the industry I know).

You seem to have missed my point. I was talking about an AppleTV gaming console that was competitive with PS5/XBone NG (or whatever it is called). They both use someone else’s silicon and have to pay their profit margin on it. Apple’s use of its own silicon would mean they would not need to make much (if any) profit on such a device and could sell it for a low price ($150) especially if they make 30% on the games sold (just like Sony does).

Oh, I didn't even realize I was responding to that kind of point, I was more trying to address the point of other posts hoping we'd see prices on Macs coming down.
 
yeah no. that's not at all what i said. ARM may have well been superior but other business considerations took precedence.
Hmmm, perhaps that may be the case today as well?
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The partnership failed to deliver. I'm not sure what that has to do with technical superiority.
The partnership failed to deliver a faster RISC processor. Sounds like a failure in technical superiority to me.
 
AppleTV competitive with a PS5 or XboxX? 😂

Yup, that is what I have said.

The next generation of consoles will be 8 cores/16 threads Zen 2 based CPUs and RDNA 2 based GPUs. Apple isn't competing in that space.

Today they are not, but they very much maybe in the not too distant future. It is estimated that Sony’s manufacturing cost on the PS5 is $450. They will either sell it at substantial or barely break even on it. It certainly seems possible that Apple could target one of their desktop SoCs to build an AppleTV that was competitive with those specs and sell it at a much lower price, as they would not have to pay for AMD’s profit on the chips. A competitive piece of hardware at a price where casual gamers can easily afford it, might be very compelling.
 
Volume production paying for the many Billions and Billions of $$$ in R&D needed to keep up with Moore’s law. Only Intel (in PCs and servers) and ARM customers (in mobile and embedded) had the huge unit volumes and revenues needed to continuously fund new R&D.
ARM wasn't deemed any more superior than other alternatives.
 
It definitely had momentum. But that doesn't answer why Apple switch to it instead of ARM.

Maybe to be 'popular for desktops at the home or in the office' ?


I'll tell you how it's going to go:

Apple will announce their new ARM based Macintosh systems and provide benchmarks showing them in a favorable light. Then the ARM versus x64 arguments will begin with each side showing their architecture as better. Benchmarks will be shown, architectural benefits will be presented, ad hominems will be thrown, and nothing will be resolved. Just like in 1995!

I'll welcome that, I suppose. While it has been nice that Apple has often gotten access to the best Intel has had to offer, sometimes slightly before PC makers, I do miss the days when Apple was faster AND better in other ways.

The difference, this time though, is that Apple actually has the resources and a world-class chip-design team to hopefully push that all to the next level.
 
I think I'm talking more about products with weaker ties to the Apple ecosystem (like, say AutoCAD... kind of on and off supporting it) or smaller developers who might have to re-write to the point of making hard decisions (like CAD/3D tools, but that's just the industry I know).

Autocad had supported Metal for quite some time, as has Maxxon for their Mac products and most others who are still on the platform.

Oh, I didn't even realize I was responding to that kind of point, I was more trying to address the point of other posts hoping we'd see prices on Macs coming down.

No problem, it was the first line of the paragraph. :) Apple has been remarkably consistent in their margins, that means that we are likely to see either much faster machines at the same price points, or machines with similar specs at lower prices (or some combination somewhat better specs, somewhat lower prices).
 
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It definitely had momentum. But that doesn't answer why Apple switch to it instead of ARM.

ARM wasn't relevant back when Apple made a switch to Intel. ARM has progressed massively during the last decade thanks to the luxury of having the massive market behind to continue on the R&D that only x86 enjoyed during late 90s~2000s.
Reason x86 came out on top against RISC contenders isn't because it was superior architecture, but because it had a huge market to keep providing R&D to keep making improvements.
 
Autocad had supported Metal for quite some time, as has Maxxon for their Mac products and most others who are still on the platform.

Wow, that is good to hear. So, more companies must have jumped on that than I had thought. It sounded pretty negative after Apple announced dropping OpenGL/CL.

That said, (I won't name names) but I've been in threads of developers of apps that don't seem like they are to that point yet. They seem to be just trying to get their apps to a point they'd work on Catalina and trying to figure out what they are going to do about OpenGL, and now this. Those are more the ones I'm worried about.

And, then of course, apps that aren't on the Mac like Revit (and many others) where we've been running them in Parallels or Bootcamp.
 
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