Are early Mac OS versions based on UNIX?

[bbarnhart]

My coworker told me today that early versions of the Mac OS (9, 8, 7, 6 and what ever was before that) were based on UNIX. I told him he was flat out wrong. I said that Mac OS X is based on UNIX but not the earlier versions. He was very insistent that they were. Again, I told him he was wrong and that I would ask everyone here and see, what, if anything the Mac OS was based on. He used to own a Mac Plus and a Mac IIsi.

 

[HexMonkey]

You're right, it's not true. Here's some evidence from http://news.com.com/2100-1040_3-257982.html?tag=st_rn:

By choosing to build Mac OS X on Unix, the company opens up thousands of new applications to Mac owners--potentially expanding Apple's market share--and gives Unix developers access to a lucrative new audience.

Unix developers' interest in Mac OS X is simple: It is the first desktop, Unix-based operating system to reach the mass market. Early signs show that Cupertino, Calif.-based Apple is off to a good start in wooing Unix developers despite the loss and replacement of its head of developer relations earlier this year.

 

[Westside guy]

My coworker told me today that early versions of the Mac OS (9, 8, 7, 6 and what ever was before that) were based on UNIX. I told him he was flat out wrong. I said that Mac OS X is based on UNIX but not the earlier versions. He was very insistent that they were. Again, I told him he was wrong and that I would ask everyone here and see, what, if anything the Mac OS was based on. He used to own a Mac Plus and a Mac IIsi.

You're right; he's wrong.

Actually I'd initially wrote a rather long response to your post; but these links do a better job of explaining - so I deleted all my verbiage and will just point here:

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=4042&page=1

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=3757

 

[bousozoku]

There was a desktop machine around the time of the Mac Plus that ran UNIX: the AT&T UNIX PC...a.k.a. 7300.

The Macintosh operating system was definitely not derived from UNIX in whole or in part. Apple's A/UX was a UNIX dialect with a Macintosh desktop look. It was so large, it had to be delivered on an 80 MB hard drive.

 

[Sun Baked]

The original Mac OS was based on the Lisa computer, Apple's original desktop GUI.

Except it was too much application for the hardware, ran like a pig, and cost $10,000.

The Mac was cheap and rather fast, they took the Lisa's GUI toolbox (Quickdraw) and built a new OS around it designed for a 128K computer.

But it also killed the LisaOS and put off a lot of the technology for years.

 

[MisterMe]

You're right, it's not true. Here's some evidence from http://news.com.com/2100-1040_3-257982.html?tag=st_rn:

By choosing to build Mac OS X on Unix, the company opens up thousands of new applications to Mac owners--potentially expanding Apple's market share--and gives Unix developers access to a lucrative new audience.

Unix developers' interest in Mac OS X is simple: It is the first desktop, Unix-based operating system to reach the mass market. Early signs show that Cupertino, Calif.-based Apple is off to a good start in wooing Unix developers despite the loss and replacement of its head of developer relations earlier this year.

It is simply not true that MacOS X 10 is the first UNIX-based desktop computer to reach the mass market. As has been pointed out above, the AT&T UNIX PC and the NeXT computers were UNIX-based desktop computers. There was also the 68000-based IBM Scientific PC. There were also several other UNIX-based desktops from smaller and long-forgotten vendors. These were, however, not mass market machines. However there was one UNIX machine that was mass-market. That was the Radio Shack Xenix/TRS-DOS dual-boot/dual-processor TRS-80 Model 12. This big brother of the TRS-80 Model II was based on the Zilog Z-80 and the Motorola 68000. Back in the 1980 time frame, it was the largest selling UNIX-based computer in the world. It kept that title for several years.

 

[mrbrown]

It is simply not true that MacOS X 10 is the first UNIX-based desktop computer to reach the mass market. As has been pointed out above, the AT&T UNIX PC and the NeXT computers were UNIX-based desktop computers. There was also the 68000-based IBM Scientific PC. There were also several other UNIX-based desktops from smaller and long-forgotten vendors. These were, however, not mass market machines. However there was one UNIX machine that was mass-market. That was the Radio Shack Xenix/TRS-DOS dual-boot/dual-processor TRS-80 Model 12. This big brother of the TRS-80 Model II was based on the Zilog Z-80 and the Motorola 68000. Back in the 1980 time frame, it was the largest selling UNIX-based computer in the world. It kept that title for several years.

Well, I noticed in the OSNews.com article, they said OS X was the first UNIX-based desktop operating system to be mass-marketed towards the general computer user. Just figured I'd point that out.

 

[bousozoku]

Well, I noticed in the OSNews.com article, they said OS X was the first UNIX-based desktop operating system to be mass-marketed towards the general computer user. Just figured I'd point that out.

Which definitely points away from the TRS-80 Model 12, which was aimed at the small business owner who wanted to run business software.

 

[MisterMe]

Which definitely points away from the TRS-80 Model 12, which was aimed at the small business owner who wanted to run business software.

What qualifies as the mass market today and what qualified as the mass market in 1980 are very different things. Back then, a substantial portion of computer users--if not a majority--wrote some of their own programs. Radio Shack promoted the TRS-80 Model 12 right along side the TRS-80 Model II. In fact, the Model 12 ran all of the Model II's software.

 

[IJ Reilly]

The even more important question is, "what is Unix?" BSD, on which OSX is based, is not strictly speaking, Unix. It is a Unix clone, in the same way that Linux is Unix-like but not Unix. Neither share code with AT&T's original Unix (though SCO is currently trying to prove in court that Linux does include some AT&T code, which they now own). MS-DOS is also essentially a Unix clone because it was based on CP/M, another Unix-like OS.

So the classic MacOS was probably the least Unix-like of any popular PC operating system and OSX is probably the most Unix-like. But none of them are actually Unix.

 

[FattyMembrane]

ask your coworker to find a command prompt on mac os 9.
that should make him quiet.

 

[abhishekit]

The original Mac OS was based on the Lisa computer, Apple's original desktop GUI.

Except it was too much application for the hardware, ran like a pig, and cost $10,000.

The Mac was cheap and rather fast, they took the Lisa's GUI toolbox (Quickdraw) and built a new OS around it designed for a 128K computer.

But it also killed the LisaOS and put off a lot of the technology for years.

holy cow!!! where did u get that avatar from??/

 

[bousozoku]

The even more important question is, "what is Unix?" BSD, on which OSX is based, is not strictly speaking, Unix. It is a Unix clone, in the same way that Linux is Unix-like but not Unix. Neither share code with AT&T's original Unix (though SCO is currently trying to prove in court that Linux does include some AT&T code, which they now own). MS-DOS is also essentially a Unix clone because it was based on CP/M, another Unix-like OS.

So the classic MacOS was probably the least Unix-like of any popular PC operating system and OSX is probably the most Unix-like. But none of them are actually Unix.

CP/M and MS-DOS were only UNIX-like at the command line. The internals were extremely different.

 

[crenz]

holy cow!!! where did u get that avatar from??/

He mentioned the source in a thread. Search the forums. Hint: It's got to do with a cropped version of his "location".

 

[iJed]

Mac OS X was the first "standard" Mac OS version to be UNIX like. However during the 68K days Apple produced their own unix distro called AUX. AUX allowed System 7 applications to run along side a standard unix shell rather like Mac OS X does today. It also had the easiest installation process of any unix distro at the time.

 

[Pandakin]

Actually there was a kind of command line prompt in os 9

remember when apps were behaving wierd in mac os 9 and u wanted to get back to the finder you could press a couple of action keys and u would get a little white box that had a prompt and u could type in something like g finder. I always wondered what that was and i thought i that was a similar command line prompt in os 9. Can anyone shed any light onto that and what that feature could do. i believe that allowed you to freeze the system, if i remember correctly. Also does anyone know what the debug mode was in os 9. thanks

 

[Sun Baked]

He mentioned the source in a thread. Search the forums. Hint: It's got to do with a cropped version of his "location".

Yes he'll be able to find the large pics, and grab a few more pics.

 

[iJed]

remember when apps were behaving wierd in mac os 9 and u wanted to get back to the finder you could press a couple of action keys and u would get a little white box that had a prompt and u could type in something like g finder. I always wondered what that was and i thought i that was a similar command line prompt in os 9. Can anyone shed any light onto that and what that feature could do. i believe that allowed you to freeze the system, if i remember correctly. Also does anyone know what the debug mode was in os 9. thanks

This was the system interupt mode. Pressing the programmers switch on some Mac models allowed entrance into this mode. For Macs lacking this switch you could press command-power (I think).

Anyway, this box is not anything like a command line. It existed exclusively for debugging purposes. You could even edit memory directly. Try typing something like this: sm 0 a9f4 and then g 0. What this does is inserts the trap address for the toolbox call ExitToShell() into memory location 0 and then g 0 starts executing code at this location and hence quitting your application. sm = set memory, g = go.

You could also install a debugger (such as MacsBug) for easier and more powerful debugging.

 

[bousozoku]

remember when apps were behaving wierd in mac os 9 and u wanted to get back to the finder you could press a couple of action keys and u would get a little white box that had a prompt and u could type in something like g finder. I always wondered what that was and i thought i that was a similar command line prompt in os 9. Can anyone shed any light onto that and what that feature could do. i believe that allowed you to freeze the system, if i remember correctly. Also does anyone know what the debug mode was in os 9. thanks

Installing MacsBug in the System Folder allowed you to press the programmer key and key commands like es--exit to shell.

 

[iRobert]

Actually, there IS one MacOS version based on UNIX (i mean in the classic range) called A/UX (Apple UNIX) was designed for running at Apple's workgroup servers (wonderful machines bdw).

It gave the user a standard System 7 interface, but with the unix kernel underneath.

 

[MisterMe]

Actually, there IS one MacOS version based on UNIX (i mean in the classic range) called A/UX (Apple UNIX) was designed for running at Apple's workgroup servers (wonderful machines bdw).

It gave the user a standard System 7 interface, but with the unix kernel underneath.

You are confusing generations of computers. A/UX ran on Macintosh II-generation computers in the early 90's. The computers supporting the Workgroup Servers was AIX, IBM's UNIX variant. The AIX-based Workgroup servers did not run the MacOS. Think of it this way: Before AIM agreement, A/UX; after AIM agreement, AIX.

 

[MisterMe]

CP/M and MS-DOS were only UNIX-like at the command line. The internals were extremely different.

MS-DOS was based on CP/M rip-off Q-DOS. The only thing that CP/M and UNIX had in common is that they were CLI-based operating systems. CP/M was modeled after RT-11, an OS for the DEC PDP-8 minicomputer.

 

[iRobert]

You are confusing generations of computers. A/UX ran on Macintosh II-generation computers in the early 90's. The computers supporting the Workgroup Servers was AIX, IBM's UNIX variant. The AIX-based Workgroup servers did not run the MacOS. Think of it this way: Before AIM agreement, A/UX; after AIM agreement, AIX.

Indeed my bad

 

[visor]

CP/M and MS-DOS were only UNIX-like at the command line. The internals were extremely different.

Well, MSDos was hardly unix like even at the shell (which was all Msdos ever had).